12 MP?

It staggers my imagination to think what this place would be without it... ))
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'How one responds to failure, not success, could be the better measure of character.'

Thomas Kolenich said:

There has been some speculation on this forum that the chip may be square ...

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But this is almost certainly not true. Olympus has a patent on aspects of FourThirds and one thing specified is the 4:3 aspect ratio. The patent also specifies the sensor size, but only in a range, up to about 25mm diagonal, whereas current FourThirds sensors are about 22mm diagonal on the active area.

Aside: the long-standing definition of 4/3" format from the era of vidicon tubes specifies a height of 13.5mm and a width of18mm, not just the diagonal length. The name only needed to mention one length because all vidicon tubes had the 4:3 aspect ratio of the broadcast television of those days.

I think 10MP is very close to a tipping point - the move from 7.4 to 10 seems to have done the 510 sensor no favours at all, although it is still fine. At 12, I don't think it would be.

My money is on the 510 sensor anyway, which should perform more than adequately.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam

6 S
6 R (Panchromatic)

4/3 F_ _ _ _ _ _ m

Let's hope ))
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... whether the flashgun(s) might also be used with E-510/E-410 via a hotshoe transmitter.

Louis_Dobson said:

... if they offer a 510 sensor pushed to 12MP, because it would have unacceptable noise at 100ISO and the exposure latitude would be tiny.

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Apart from Jay's point that a 20% change is tiny (about 1/4 stop in noise levels and DR), there is the fact that downsampling from 12MP to 10MP averages out noise and by reducing the noise floor also increases dynamic range, so a comparison of 10MP JPEG's
a) from a 10MP sensor
b) from downsampling from a 12MP sensor
would probably be truly negligible.

In fact simply printing at higher PPI (only 10% higher) is likely to have a dithering effect that lowers visible noise and thus increases DR roughly back to "10MP" levels.

Has anyone actually compared visible noise levels and DR on equal size prints made from sensors of the same size but with pixel counts differing by about 20%?

I suspect that both those expecting sharper images and more pixels and those expecting less nose and more DR from less pixels would be disappointed.

And frankly, 4.75 micron pixels are very far from the threshold when even ISO 100 looks bad. Years ago, 4MP and 5MP 2/3" interline CCD sensors gave fine ISO 100 results, suggesting that even 16MP and 20MP in 4/3" could look fine at lower ISO speeds. So the issues with 12MP would only be at high ISO, and downsampling or such would probably only be needed at high ISO or in cases needing very high DR. Most low ISO images would be fine at the full 12MP.

While possible, as indicated by the "Passions" episodes, not likely, also based on the "Passions" episodes.

I believe that the E-3 sensor will be 10.X MP based , somewhat, on the E-510's excellent sensor, as may be indicated in the "Passions" episodes, yet, somehow different, but better.

Olympus has strongly suggested a continuum of sensor use in these episodes but have not excluded the possibility of enhancements in the upcoming E-3 using a similar sensor to the E-510, yet different.
I hope that's as unclear as I intended it to be.
--
Troll Whisperer
Bill Turner

Amen! Amen! and Amen!

(I think your faith will heal you!)

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;

despite all the technical stuff, it is important psychologically to the masses that have been trained by the marketing departments to rely on mega-pixals for quality determination. As a digital photog newbie, that is what I would have pretty much based my decision on. Weight is also a BIG factor for most people and if I am looking for a dslr to take pictures of little Johnny with the choice being between a larger N/C with 10 mp or a smaller 12 mp Oly E-3, what the heck do you think I am going to choose as a average consumer??? Throw in the fact that little Johnny can barf on the thing, it stabalizes my sleep-deprived shaky hands with a live-view articulating screen and I'm there. System sold and probably a very happy new Oly user.

It's all nice to read all the technical stuff and I have really learned much stuff from you guys. However, Oly is in the business to sell cameras to as many people as possible. In that respect, mega-pixal count is very important. I know, the E-3 isn't necessarily for soccer moms, but female users are rising and I really believe we will see a trend much like the trend about 10 years ago in the auto industry. Remember all the mauve cars when the industry figured out who the "real" decision maker was for purchasing a car??????

Love ya guys!!!!!

....and my bet is still on 12 with the crow being prepared.........

Well, the Passions talked a lot about passion and gave suggestive double talk, but actual facts were rather sparse and some open to debat. We have at most an emotional framework and a picture or two and, of course, our own product experience from the ancestor. We have now a week of wishing, imagining, hoping....and maybe hopping, speculating, worrying and.....not saying...LOL
--
Bob Ross
http://www.pbase.com/rossrtx

Plusiotis said:

... whether the flashgun(s) might also be used with E-510/E-410 via
a hotshoe transmitter.

Click to expand...

range. I want 50 iso.
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Dave in Cuxton

It used to be that companies would advertise the total number of MP, not the effective, until enough people complained about it. So now we have lower effective MP counts.. but some pretty high total MP counts that nobody listens to. I think, maybe, we might see that here. I have seen nothing to alter my belief in the infamous PDF.. so I am going with 10MP, but still different then the 510 sensor.

If anybody thinks that Olympus is really that concerned about whos pixel is bigger has not been paying attention the last few years. They make thier money in other places. The E-3 maybe an uber-product, but still a small drop in the Oly corporate bucket. They likely make more money in the sale of one or two of those big medical devices then they will in the life-time of an E-System camera. If the PDF is true, Oly is looking for bragging rights in the AF, Live-View, and ruggedness area... not MP. At the end of the day, our clients (other than the stock-houses) don't care how big our pixel is, it is what we do with it that leaves them satisfied.

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;

E-3. We get 10 megapixels unless we jump to Nikon, which is looking attractive.

But I'm not jumping. I'm just saying that Nikon is doing an awfully good job, sans SSWF.

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Cheers,

Jim Pilcher
Colorado, USA

'Begin each day as if it were on purpose.' -- Mary Anne Radmacher

PapaRotzzi said:

At the end of the day, our clients (other
than the stock-houses) don't care how big our pixel is, it is what we
do with it that leaves them satisfied.

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The first thing new clients ask is, "What camera do you use?" And the second question is, "How many MP is it?"

Regardless of the final output, the initial impression can very easily cast a shadow over your work - no matter how good it is. Many clients, at least the ones I've worked with for small side jobs, have no idea what an E-1 is. They can only put "5MP" into perspective, which is on the low side. It is difficult to explain to someone absent of digital camera knowledge that the E-1 5MP image will look better at 12x18 than their 8MP 1/2.5" sensor Camera X. But they understand that 8 is bigger than 5, and assume 8 is better than 5.

So while the final output may be magnificent in comparison to the competition, you must first cross that megapixel threshold that strongly grasps so many people - especially new clients. And because of this, it is easier (for myself) to get jobs once the person has seen my work, rather than find new clients who haven't seen my work.

--
Tim
'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/

We could be best friends. Great post. Stupid mask, though. Batman's is better.

--
Cheers,

Jim Pilcher
Colorado, USA

'Begin each day as if it were on purpose.' -- Mary Anne Radmacher

Louis_Dobson said:

I think 10MP is very close to a tipping point - the move from 7.4 to
10 seems to have done the 510 sensor no favours at all, although it
is still fine. At 12, I don't think it would be.

Click to expand...

I don't. I just look at the difference in DR between my 8Mp 2/3" Coolpix 8400 and my 8Mp 4/3" DSLRs and find the difference isn't all that large. So I see around 32Mp being around the tipping point. I see no reason not to expect 12Mp

to work just fine in a 4/3" sensor if reasonable care and modern technology is employed.

Louis_Dobson said:

My money is on the 510 sensor anyway, which should perform more than
adequately.

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Sure. Frankly I'm not all that concerned 10 or 12Mp isn't going to matter much to me.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

Guess I must live in a different world.. I have never had anybody (except for other photographers) ask me how many megapixels my cameras are. But then, I am not a "professional photographer", nor do I play one on TV.

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;

Yeah, but Batman hides in a cave and probably shoots Nikon. I am out here, on my own, working without a safety net.

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;

PapaRotzzi said:

If anybody thinks that Olympus is really that concerned about whos
pixel is bigger has not been paying attention the last few years.
They make thier money in other places. The E-3 maybe an uber-product,
but still a small drop in the Oly corporate bucket. They likely make
more money in the sale of one or two of those big medical devices
then they will in the life-time of an E-System camera. If the PDF is
true, Oly is looking for bragging rights in the AF, Live-View, and
ruggedness area... not MP. At the end of the day, our clients (other
than the stock-houses) don't care how big our pixel is, it is what we
do with it that leaves them satisfied.

Click to expand...

Profit from selling E-3s may be a small amount of total revenue compared to other areas (medical, etc.) that Olympus makes products for. In fact, just in the camera department, digicams are more profitable and easier to design and because of the cost, the E-510 will outsell it, however…

I believe Olympus is very, very proud of their E-3. The camera represents the culmination of all of their know how into making the finest camera (for its price point) they can make. I don’t think they (down deep) want to settle for being a second tier DSLR camera company. They are slowly but surely filling out their camera system line although it may never match what Canon/Nikon offers.

Still… I think Olympus is out to prove that they are a company that DEMANDS to be respected on a professional level and want to show the photographic world that they can hang with the big boys.

Just my 2¢.

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Stay Well,
Pete K.

Timskis6 said:

The first thing new clients ask is, "What camera do you use?" And
the second question is, "How many MP is it?"

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The next time a new client asks you have many megapixels your camera has, tell them your equipment cost $5000 more than their little, dinky 12MP Casio! Maybe that will shut them up!

On the other hand, maybe that kind of talk will lose you the sale.
(c

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Stay Well,
Pete K.