Why no APS/fourthird sensor in compact Digi Cam?

Mr. Joinson,

It may be widely discussed before... Just want to see why manufacturers (except sigma) do not bother to employ larger APS/fourthird size CMOS or CCD in compact digicam, any idea?

In film era, every camera, SLR or compact, uses the same sensor. Why should it not be the case in Digitals? I can think of some technical concerns:

1. size of lens
2. power consumption
3. cost and supply of APS sensors
4. no live view

2. to 4. are resolved now in 2007, at least by some. Would it be down to non-technical reasons, which are indeed more crucial -

5. not to spoil the higher profits in SLR + accessories market for the time being....?

I care little about this reason no. 5. To me, a compact digi-cam with good noise characteristics at high ISO is very desirable. How much longer people like me have to wait?

M.B.

M.B. said:

Mr. Joinson,

It may be widely discussed before... Just want to see why
manufacturers (except sigma) do not bother to employ larger
APS/fourthird size CMOS or CCD in compact digicam, any idea?

In film era, every camera, SLR or compact, uses the same sensor.
Why should it not be the case in Digitals? I can think of some
technical concerns:

1. size of lens
2. power consumption
3. cost and supply of APS sensors
4. no live view

2. to 4. are resolved now in 2007, at least by some. Would it be
down to non-technical reasons, which are indeed more crucial -

5. not to spoil the higher profits in SLR + accessories market for
the time being....?

I care little about this reason no. 5. To me, a compact digi-cam
with good noise characteristics at high ISO is very desirable. How
much longer people like me have to wait?

Click to expand...

How long will you have to wait? Quite a while, I suspect. As much as I'd LOVE to see a 4/3s based compact (for serious shooters) or even some sort of rangefinder camera. I don't think there is much economic incentive for Oly, Panasonic, or Leica to produce one.

The buying public has voted with their pocketbooks and elected the DSLR as the only camera they will pay a premium for. And even THAT premium is shrinking as the prices of entry level DSLRs drop.

I have also read posts from people who I suspect don't know that much about camera/lens design, but still may know more than me, that a 4/3's compact camera wouldn't likely be all that compact compared to the E410.

Personally, I don't much care about super small size, an E410 sized super silent compact with a 4/3s sized sensor capable of fast and accurate manual focus would be an excellent camera for candids. But I'm not going to hold my breath till I see one (I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so)
--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'

I'd like to see a live view 4/3 sized sensor interchangeable lens camera, without a pentaprism or pentamirror. It would be sort a like a mini Contax G1 or G2. It wouldn't meet the 4/3 standard for mount size, lens, etc. but could use the same sensor, electronics, LCD, etc.
--
WarrenKK

PetPeeve: posting a 800x600 to show anything other than how soft my lens is or why I need new glasses.

Almost all manufacturers now are operating on DSLR-priority, and they seemed to have return to the film era comfort zone of "SLR and P&S".

Someone has to be brave enough to revitalize this sector because if they build a quality camera at a reasonable price, people will buy it...

M.B. said:

Mr. Joinson,

It may be widely discussed before... Just want to see why
manufacturers (except sigma) do not bother to employ larger
APS/fourthird size CMOS or CCD in compact digicam, any idea?

In film era, every camera, SLR or compact, uses the same sensor.
Why should it not be the case in Digitals? I can think of some
technical concerns:

1. size of lens
2. power consumption
3. cost and supply of APS sensors
4. no live view

2. to 4. are resolved now in 2007, at least by some. Would it be
down to non-technical reasons, which are indeed more crucial -

5. not to spoil the higher profits in SLR + accessories market for
the time being....?

I care little about this reason no. 5. To me, a compact digi-cam
with good noise characteristics at high ISO is very desirable. How
much longer people like me have to wait?

M.B.

Click to expand...

--
New blog: http://1001noisycameras.blogspot.com
Current blog: http://photographyetc.livejournal.com

I also want a 4/3 camera without a mirror and a good EVF. In the forum is called EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens). I think we must see one in the future. The problem is that the EVF is not good enough YET. This kind of camera will not be a lot smaller than the DSLR, but will have a lot of better futures.
--
Regards,
Zeev

http://public.fotki.com/zeev-simon/
http://picasaweb.google.com/zeev.simon

I'm moving on from a Minolta A1 to an Oly 4/3 system E-510. The A1 was in the series of the largest sensor digicams that were made (2/3"). (except the R1, noted below.) But that market went to smaller sensors, alas. I love the evf. I realy want one on a 4/3 System interchangable lens camera. Since no one is making such a camera, I plan to kludge one by attaching a loupe to the lcd. It will look (and be) awkward, but I think it will do a lot of what I want.

I actually think there is one camera which meets the OP's description, the Sony R1. It has an APS-C sensor, evf, and a fixed zoom lens. I also an intrigued that no one else has made a similar camera. My only guess is that the smaller digicams are giving "good enough" images for that market. (And those people like the advantages of small sensors: a smaller telephoto lens, and enormous DOF.) And that too many of the people who want better IQ also want the flexibility of interchangeable lenses. But still, I'm surprised that there is only one larger sensor fixed zoom camera out there.
--
John Paul

-- changing the subject line makes threads easier to follow --

I've had the E-330 for a while now and love it quite a bit. I use the viewfinder about 30% of the time and the LCD the rest. It's just a framing device for me. I can't focus my manual older Zuikos worth beans with the viewfinder but I can focus using live view "B".

As to the loupe/hood kludge you are thinking of, Hoodman already has once for sale. I was thinking of looking into one.

Warren

John Paul said:

I'm moving on from a Minolta A1 to an Oly 4/3 system E-510. The A1
was in the series of the largest sensor digicams that were made
(2/3"). (except the R1, noted below.) But that market went to
smaller sensors, alas. I love the evf. I realy want one on a 4/3
System interchangable lens camera. Since no one is making such a
camera, I plan to kludge one by attaching a loupe to the lcd. It
will look (and be) awkward, but I think it will do a lot of what I
want.
I actually think there is one camera which meets the OP's
description, the Sony R1. It has an APS-C sensor, evf, and a fixed
zoom lens. I also an intrigued that no one else has made a similar
camera. My only guess is that the smaller digicams are giving
"good enough" images for that market. (And those people like the
advantages of small sensors: a smaller telephoto lens, and enormous
DOF.) And that too many of the people who want better IQ also want
the flexibility of interchangeable lenses. But still, I'm
surprised that there is only one larger sensor fixed zoom camera
out there.
--
John Paul

-- changing the subject line makes threads easier to follow --

Click to expand...

--
WarrenKK

PetPeeve: posting a 800x600 to show anything other than how soft my lens is or why I need new glasses.

That is a very subjective issue and even back with film days, when the film media already dictate that even P&S need to have same recording media as SLR, this had not been an easy matter to deal with.

If we look back at those really quality Film compact that can really be termed true hobbyist / enthusiast Photographic Tool. They were all relatively pricy and dictate a niche market. The like of Minolta TC-1, Konica Hexar-AF, Contax T series and G series

The same applied and probably applied more to digital and to a greater extent even more challenging is that todays digital cusotmer had grown accustomed to the petite size of the small sensor DC. A quality truly APS-C sized sensor compact not only will need the same type of control and imaging component as a DSLR. It need to have a Lens that do that and all these contribute to a not too small size. And that they will not be priced cheap either.

The sad truth is not that the Mfr cannot produce one in such capacity, its more likely that the price of current generation of DC/DSLR had pretty much exclude such a product. The market are likely not going to have enough customer buying such a product at such a price point !! And unlike film comact digital cannot use prolonged shelf life and retail cycle to extend the real retail period nor to made the price more amenable to buying consumers.

Ultimately the question would be how is the price vs the quality vs the retail cycle available to Mfr and consumers alike. The very recent Ricoh GR-D probably give a bit of insight. Its a quality DC but still lacking in a lot of key areas. But if we are to give the same model a proper APS-C sized or 4/3 sized snsor, a lens to match, and imaging / buffering mechanism to match. ARe we going to be looking at a price almost the like of a mid range DSLR. Is the market willing to accept it !! I like to see such a DC, but sadly I feel that its unlikely for the while .. Let's just wait and see how Sigma deliver on the DP-1

--

• Franka -

Glen Barrington said:

How long will you have to wait? Quite a while, I suspect. As much
as I'd LOVE to see a 4/3s based compact (for serious shooters) or
even some sort of rangefinder camera. I don't think there is much
economic incentive for Oly, Panasonic, or Leica to produce one.
The buying public has voted with their pocketbooks and elected the
DSLR as the only camera they will pay a premium for. And even THAT
premium is shrinking as the prices of entry level DSLRs drop.

Click to expand...

When was there ever something for the public to vote ON? We have yet to see anyone produce a compact camera with a large sensor.

I think there is a huge market with people that already own DSLR's, but want a camera that can deliver that level of quality for the times when you cannot have a DSLR with you due to encumbrance or other restrictions.

Glen Barrington said:

I have also read posts from people who I suspect don't know that
much about camera/lens design, but still may know more than me,
that a 4/3's compact camera wouldn't likely be all that compact
compared to the E410.

Click to expand...

Sigma has managed it with the DP-1. The form factor is smaller than some P&S models even, especially the advanaced ones. It's much smaller than any DSLR on the market.

--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home

John Paul said:

I actually think there is one camera which meets the OP's
description, the Sony R1. It has an APS-C sensor, evf, and a fixed
zoom lens. I also an intrigued that no one else has made a similar
camera.

Click to expand...

The problem with the R1 was that it was not really compact. So yes it had a larger sensor, but if you were going to carry something that bulky you might as well start thinking about carrying a DSLR with one really good lens for normal use, and other lenses for when you were able to carry more. I think that's why it didn't really do better in terms of sales...

--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home

Trouble is, some companies have tried to do this sort of camera (Sony R1, Canon Pro 1 spring to mind) and had their fingers burnt in the process.

It's all about perception, if someone is going to pay in excess of £500 for a camera, they want it to look like and feel like a DSLR, and not a P&S no matter how good the performance is. As far as I am aware, the only company that breaks this rule at the moment is Leica, but then, that is a very limited market.

Steve

the Sony R1 made good images but was way too big
and it was made before Sony had an interest in dSLRs
as soon as Sony had a dSLR, off with its head
dSLRs account for 11% of volume but 30% of income
the rest is accessories and lenses

this sort of camera will compete with the crossovers from P&S to dSLR'
Olympus research indicates that 35% of sales are new to dSLRs

for it to succeed it requires several features to be met
that the dSLR potential is saturated
that dSLR sales wont be greatly impacted
that a premium can be gained

with Olympus that isnt the case, 2 cameras yet to come
Panasonic are on different ground
Panasonic have the technology for EVIL right now

another iteration would be a fixed focal viewfinder camera
much like Minolta HiMatic, this is the cheapest possible variant
but it still wont be cheaper than Panasonic's intended $300 dSLR

--
Riley

not all that counts, can be counted

-------------------------------------------
See the colors of my world in:
thw.smugmug.com

Steve Russell said:

Trouble is, some companies have tried to do this sort of camera
(Sony R1, Canon Pro 1 spring to mind) and had their fingers burnt
in the process.

Click to expand...

The Pro 1 used a 2/3" sensor. That's a small sensor. Larger than any other digicam uses now, but the Pro 1 was hardly unique, there were plenty of other 2/3" sensor digicams available at the time.

The 1/1.8" and 1/1.7" sensors used in some cameras now are not much smaller than 2/3".

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

Rriley said:

dSLRs account for 11% of volume but 30% of income
the rest is accessories and lenses

Click to expand...

I'm not sure where "the rest is accessories and lenses" comes in.

volume = money coming in
income = what is left over after you have paid expenses

Rriley said:

Panasonic have the technology for EVIL right now

Click to expand...

I'd expect one from Panasonic or Sony first. Both have the technology, and now both have a DSLR system to base it on. Samsung could do it, too.

Rriley said:

another iteration would be a fixed focal viewfinder camera
much like Minolta HiMatic, this is the cheapest possible variant
but it still wont be cheaper than Panasonic's intended $300 dSLR

Click to expand...

But it's easier to stuff a HiMatic in your pocket than a DSLR. There's a market for it.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

This is a catch-22 situation.

I think if small cameras (i.e., small sensors) are desired, then manufacturers should cap the pixel count at, say, 6 MP. More effort should be invested in lens quality, IS, WB, response speed etc etc. The Canon SD700 IS is a good example.

-------------------------------------------
See the colors of my world in:
thw.smugmug.com

nickleback said:

nickleback said:

another iteration would be a fixed focal viewfinder camera
much like Minolta HiMatic, this is the cheapest possible variant
but it still wont be cheaper than Panasonic's intended $300 dSLR

Click to expand...

But it's easier to stuff a HiMatic in your pocket than a DSLR.
There's a market for it.

Click to expand...

that is exactly what compacts do right now
what you need to prove is how a compact with a 4/3 sensor is better
given that aspects of the feature suite are less, ie zoom range
and yet somehow cost more

however you look at it, it has to be intelligently marketed
given the average capacity of people on these fora as a sample
im not at all confident that can be done

--
Riley

not all that counts, can be counted

So the whole concept of fixed lens, large sensor really missed its target with the R1.

Perhaps the noise came from having the sensor active full time, thus increasing its temperature and thermal noise. Whereas the DSLR has the sensor covered until the moment of exposure.

Cheers, Tony.

tony brown said:

So the whole concept of fixed lens, large sensor really missed its
target with the R1.

Perhaps the noise came from having the sensor active full time,
thus increasing its temperature and thermal noise. Whereas the DSLR
has the sensor covered until the moment of exposure.

Click to expand...

the thermal issue is overplayed IMO.
it was important once, but much less so now

i suspect mostly it was the implementation, it was crude
lets not forget the thing was a tank, prolly heavier than many dSLRs
and it had some strange ideas like the LCD on the top
still after all that, it was when Sony lifted K/M dSLR that it got the axe
no announcement, it just quietly disappeared

Riley

not all that counts, can be counted

I have tried to bring this subject in another forum (about the new canon s5) . I totally agree. This camera won't be small, but would well bear the name of 'bridge' camera. I have a DSLR to have a 'big enough' sensor, but I would not mind having a non removable lens ,with a good zoom range (35-300 35mm equivalent) , and an EVF if it reduces the size of the camera.

On my DSLR, I have trouble with dust on the sensor , on the mirror, on the focus screen ... Basically, I avoid changing lenses 'on the field' , because it brings dust, no matter what. You need to pay high price to get an 'all around' zoom , and it is bulky. Now I think there is still room for technology to improve on the sensors. The 'last breed' of sensors we are seeing now are 12megapixels on 1/1.7 sensors (panasonic) . If with a similar technology, we can get a very good ,low noise sensor (2/3 or bigger) at say 8 / 10 megapixels , this would be great.

After that, as it is mentioned in this forum, it requires a move from a 'challenger' (not canon or nikon) to come with it (most probable : Sony, panasonic , then oly , pentax)