I don't get it....

Hemidart · Feb 18, 2007

Andrzej

Very nice work....I enjoyed your images.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

Edward Rauschkolb · Feb 18, 2007

I love the vast array of lenses available for the M's at all price ranges. One of my personal favorites is the original circa 1963 90 f 2.8 (fat) tele-elmarit which produces different images from the extremely sharp current 90 2.8 elmarit. Both affordable extremely good lenses with different "fingerprints". Contrast these with using the previous 90 f2 Summicron wide open (out of focus image) as opposed to the new ASPH wide open (or the 75 ASPH), vs the incredible bargain of the Voight 90 3.5 or long grey scale of the 85 older Canon's

Only careful use and careful observation will let one observe and learn to use the differences. Interstingly digital photography hjas markedly shortened the learning curve here but still to use these things requires practice and attention to detail. Almost all of these lenses are affordable, some downright inexpensive (with the exception of the 2 new ASPH's and I have seen the 90 ASPH used on eBay for $1.5K).

Personally, I own too many and need to sell some... lo

ed

Just Shoot Me · Feb 18, 2007

Just how does it break that tradition? Because it is not film? In all honesty all M's since the M3 have broken the M3 tradition.

Metering was never that great on any M that had that feature. All other M's may or may not last as long as a M3, I have 3 M3's all built in the late 50's or early 60's and they all work like they did the day Leica shipped them.

I also have a M8 and I must say it is a TRUE M with the added benefit of having instant feedback. How many times have you use your M film camera, or any type of film camera, and found out well after the shot you thought you got didn't come out the way you had hoped it would or at all.

All Leica's are a lot of money. They always have been and they always will be. I remeber back in 1971 or 2 I bought a German 28mm f/2 or 2.8 (can't remember which) and it was over $1000 and $200+ for the viewfinder. If the Leica lenses and other accessories had kept pace with the normal inflation rate that lens today would cost well over $10000 and it wouldn't be as good as the ASPH that is being made today.

To each his own. Since you don't get it there really is no reason for you to reply to any more post in this thread.
Good luck with what ever brand camera you choose to use.

Hemidart said:
Edward Chatlos said:

And until you use a Leica with Leica lenses you never will.

Click to expand...

I used to shoot with a M3 years ago...The M8 broke that tradition
imho.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

tashley · Feb 18, 2007

Not really, one or two of the words are the same but the overall impression is quite different I think - and I think he thinks that too. But I stand corrected if he sees this and disagrees!

In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim

Hemidart said:
tashley said:

He was being ironic

Click to expand...

Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

tashley · Feb 18, 2007

As did disc brakes on cars, penicillin and the vote. But hey...

Hemidart said:
Edward Chatlos said:

And until you use a Leica with Leica lenses you never will.

Click to expand...

I used to shoot with a M3 years ago...The M8 broke that tradition
imho.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

Tim

Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?

tashley said:
In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim

Hemidart said:

tashley said:

He was being ironic

Click to expand...

Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

If (like most europeans) you learn to drive in manual gearbox cars ("stick shift" - what a quaint expression - I call it the "gear lever") changing gear is no more a demanding part of driving than turning the wheel or pressing the brake pedal....

abovo said:
Using a Leica s not hard, it just needs to be absorbed, like
driving a stick shift car you need to think about the photo and not
let the machine do that for you. Then there is the quality of the
tool, it meets the artists demands with style. You may prefer to
work with a different tool and methods, which is about your
personal choice to create your self expression in a photograph.
Enjoy...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

I have a 1970's Japanese compact rangefinder and a 6x9 Fuji rangefinder and I can't for the life of me see what the advantage is.

A rangefinder is a simple optical tunnel viewfinder like you find on a Kodak instamatic but with the addition of a co-incident focusing aid. How is this better than a SLR viewer?

Please note I'm not knocking the M8 here; rather the RF in general

Artichoke said:
because you don't get it
shooting with a RF camera is an entirely different experience from
using a SLR & has enormous advantages for certain kinds of
photography
certainly for shooting birds or doing macros of insects a RF is not
the way to go
the Leica M cameras are about as good as RF gets and offers unique
advantages for informal portraiture, candid photography and is
presently peerless for wide angle photography needs such as
architectural shooting ...in low light situations a RF camera is
more adept with focus and for all most all fluid situations, the
RF's expansive viewfinder (in which you see well beyond what will
be captured) gives a huge advantage for compostion ...I strongly
disagree with your notion that other camera designs would do as
well for these circumstances
that said a Leica RF is quite an investment, but it does offer
advantages that are unique and that some find well worth the expense
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

tashley · Feb 18, 2007

Yup - or you can just understand (as I am sure you do) that within two stops either side when shooting RAW (which I always do) there's b* r all difference between underexposing or overexposing and then changing it in RAW, and either changing your ISO or you exposure comp. I just point briefly at a different part of the scene and meter off it, meaning exposure comp without removing camera from eye.

This is exactly what I do (did, when I used it) with my 5D, which had so many user-definable dials and options that I found it easier to work this way...

Best

Tim

DMillier said:
Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?

tashley said:

In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim

Hemidart said:

tashley said:

He was being ironic

Click to expand...

Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

Stovall · Feb 18, 2007

Nuts & Bolts: Taking Pictures vs. Making Pictures

February 2007 by Bill Pierce

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0702/pierce.html

--

---
****************************************

'Giving a camera to Diane Arbus is like putting a live grenade in the hands of a child.'
Norman Mailer (b. 1923), U.S. author. Newsweek (New York, 22 Oct. 1984)

tashley · Feb 18, 2007

Dave, until you've shot with one consistently for a while (maybe you have) it IS hard to see the advantage. I'm now to the point that with the exception of a dodgy lens I had on my recent Venice shoot, my focus is consistently where I want it rather than where some AF device put it. And coincident focus is easier than SLR manual by a long shot IMHO.

Best

T

DMillier said:
A rangefinder is a simple optical tunnel viewfinder like you find
on a Kodak instamatic but with the addition of a co-incident
focusing aid. How is this better than a SLR viewer?

Please note I'm not knocking the M8 here; rather the RF in general

Artichoke said:

because you don't get it
shooting with a RF camera is an entirely different experience from
using a SLR & has enormous advantages for certain kinds of
photography
certainly for shooting birds or doing macros of insects a RF is not
the way to go
the Leica M cameras are about as good as RF gets and offers unique
advantages for informal portraiture, candid photography and is
presently peerless for wide angle photography needs such as
architectural shooting ...in low light situations a RF camera is
more adept with focus and for all most all fluid situations, the
RF's expansive viewfinder (in which you see well beyond what will
be captured) gives a huge advantage for compostion ...I strongly
disagree with your notion that other camera designs would do as
well for these circumstances
that said a Leica RF is quite an investment, but it does offer
advantages that are unique and that some find well worth the expense
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke

Click to expand...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

I think the differences between even budget CD players and expensive kit is pretty small. And those differences quickly fade as you get used to them, such is the nature of human perception.

I recently spent 2 afternoons in listening rooms researching a new CD player to replace my 17 year old Rotel budget player. Ended up with a new unit with fancy dual Wolf something or other highend DACs.

But you know what, now I have it home, the sound might actually be somewhat less enjoyable than the old one

Whether it is or not the improvements are barely discernable - despite 17 years of technical development and the 5* ratings from the snake oil merchants audio press...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

As someone who had never used autofocus until I went digital I still mourn the all but passing of manual focus. I have the manual focus screen in my 5D because I'm mainly using it with Nikon lenses. I still generally use AF when it is available but I'm sure that if my cameras had big, bright viewfinders and split image circles like they used to I would be a MF guy.

But optical tunnel viewfinders? How, er, backward...

tashley said:
Best

T

DMillier said:

A rangefinder is a simple optical tunnel viewfinder like you find
on a Kodak instamatic but with the addition of a co-incident
focusing aid. How is this better than a SLR viewer?

Please note I'm not knocking the M8 here; rather the RF in general

Artichoke said:

because you don't get it
shooting with a RF camera is an entirely different experience from
using a SLR & has enormous advantages for certain kinds of
photography
certainly for shooting birds or doing macros of insects a RF is not
the way to go
the Leica M cameras are about as good as RF gets and offers unique
advantages for informal portraiture, candid photography and is
presently peerless for wide angle photography needs such as
architectural shooting ...in low light situations a RF camera is
more adept with focus and for all most all fluid situations, the
RF's expansive viewfinder (in which you see well beyond what will
be captured) gives a huge advantage for compostion ...I strongly
disagree with your notion that other camera designs would do as
well for these circumstances
that said a Leica RF is quite an investment, but it does offer
advantages that are unique and that some find well worth the expense
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke

Click to expand...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

Edward Rauschkolb · Feb 18, 2007

Well,

It depends,

If you use the M8 as if you were to use as an M6 or MP. It works identically. That is you set an aperture or shutter speed and adjust the other until you get a central circle to light an arrow will ttell you which way to turn. Dimness of the arrow will tell you if you are 1/2 stop above or below the "correct" exposure.

Long term users of these cameras would adjust the ISO/ASA wheel on the back to set exposure "compensation"

The M7 for the first time incorporated Aperture preferred exposure automation (you set the aperture, it picks the shutter speed) and created a "slightly" (and I do mean slightly) improved variation on turning the rear ISO/ASA wheel on the back of the camera. The placement of the rear LCD makes the ISO wheel not viable, and so this option is no longer available.

Instead one must hit the "SET" button, this brings up the critical values menu, if one has previously used it fro exposure comp it will be at the exposure comp line, then hit the "SET" button again' adjust and hit the "SET" button a third time. In practice, I really don't find it more difficult than the previous method on the M7. It does seem that a firmware option could enable the wheel to do it by itself though and would be welcome.

I hope this answers your question.

Ed Rauschkolb

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

The 5D interface is superb for Av mode - aperture set on the main dial and exp comp with the big thumb wheel. Blows the much vaunted Nikon ergonomics away.

Sadly for me, I hardly ever use the 5D, 90% of my shots being with the 350D which lacks the wheel and has a crude interface.

tashley said:
This is exactly what I do (did, when I used it) with my 5D, which
had so many user-definable dials and options that I found it easier
to work this way...

Best

Tim

DMillier said:

Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?

tashley said:

In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim

Hemidart said:

tashley said:

He was being ironic

Click to expand...

Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

Seems a bit cheap on a premium, priced product. Perhaps a sign of a first generation design or Leica's legendary conservatism..?

tashley said:
This is exactly what I do (did, when I used it) with my 5D, which
had so many user-definable dials and options that I found it easier
to work this way...

Best

Tim

DMillier said:

Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?

tashley said:

In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim

Hemidart said:

tashley said:

He was being ironic

Click to expand...

Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

Thank you.

Sounds unnecessarily restrictive although I'm sure one can get used to anything.

But considering the leica reputation I would have expected something like the Voightlander R2a solution...

Edward Rauschkolb said:
Well,

It depends,

If you use the M8 as if you were to use as an M6 or MP. It works
identically. That is you set an aperture or shutter speed and
adjust the other until you get a central circle to light an arrow
will ttell you which way to turn. Dimness of the arrow will tell
you if you are 1/2 stop above or below the "correct" exposure.

Long term users of these cameras would adjust the ISO/ASA wheel on
the back to set exposure "compensation"

The M7 for the first time incorporated Aperture preferred exposure
automation (you set the aperture, it picks the shutter speed) and
created a "slightly" (and I do mean slightly) improved variation on
turning the rear ISO/ASA wheel on the back of the camera. The
placement of the rear LCD makes the ISO wheel not viable, and so
this option is no longer available.

Instead one must hit the "SET" button, this brings up the critical
values menu, if one has previously used it fro exposure comp it
will be at the exposure comp line, then hit the "SET" button again'
adjust and hit the "SET" button a third time. In practice, I
really don't find it more difficult than the previous method on the
M7. It does seem that a firmware option could enable the wheel to
do it by itself though and would be welcome.

I hope this answers your question.

Ed Rauschkolb

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

tashley · Feb 18, 2007

Could be either really. I'm not fussed cos I don't think I'd use it, in fact for me personally one of the attractions is the limited number of controls. But then I am a bit simple!

;-)

Tim

DMillier said:
tashley said:

This is exactly what I do (did, when I used it) with my 5D, which
had so many user-definable dials and options that I found it easier
to work this way...

Best

Tim

DMillier said:

Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?

tashley said:

In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim

Hemidart said:

tashley said:

He was being ironic

Click to expand...

Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

Click to expand...

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

But isn't a leica quite large compared to most compacts (film or digital)?

Something like an oly XA or a Rollie LED is much smaller and more pocketable...

Mark Smith said:
Hemidart said:

I am intrigued by the Leica brand. But..
I have yet to see an image shot by a Leica that could not of been
done by cameras that cost far less. But...

I have seen great images shot by photographers using a Leica.

I guess, it's not the camera but the person behind the camera that
makes a great image
Money cannot buy talent.

Click to expand...

What you say is of course true, it's the person behind the camera,
mostly....
But also consider that for certain situations some cameras are
better than others; a RF would be a poor choice for a Macro or Bird
photographer, sports also.
I like my M4-P for the fact its small enough to be with me at all
times, but is capable of the highest quality.
Sometimes I just 'see' a shot and pull it out of my pocket snap:

The best camera is the one you have with you, and for me thats
always a Leica RF.

Mark
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

DavidMillier · Feb 18, 2007

What if you use a Cosina with leica lenses?

Edward Chatlos said:
And until you use a Leica with Leica lenses you never will.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm

I don't get it....

Senior Member

Senior Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Senior Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Veteran Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Similar threads

Keyboard shortcuts