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Canon D30 Snobbery in rec.photo.digital

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Matti J. said:
Jim K wrote (to Pekka Saarinen):
Matti J. said:
... As for your photo's they are IMHO very
non inspiring, they do not do the D30 justice and proves that the
true worth is in the talent and not the tool.
...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
...and talking about talent: If selfrespecting photographers publish only the very best shots they have taken, it would be amusing to see how the the other ones turned out:

http://www.jimsphotopage.com/digital/e20/set01/imagepages/image8.htm

If one cannot get even the basic photographic points straight , it is somewhat peculiar to critisize Pekka to this degree.

Cheers,
Matti Jarventausta
 
Matti J. said:
Matti J. said:
Jim K wrote (to Pekka Saarinen):
Matti J. said:
... As for your photo's they are IMHO very
non inspiring, they do not do the D30 justice and proves that the
true worth is in the talent and not the tool.
...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
...and talking about talent: If selfrespecting photographers
publish only the very best shots they have taken, it would be
amusing to see how the the other ones turned out:

http://www.jimsphotopage.com/digital/e20/set01/imagepages/image8.htm

If one cannot get even the basic photographic points straight , it
is somewhat peculiar to critisize Pekka to this degree.
Click to expand...
But Matti, don't you see he has a cutting edge company http://www.brandxproductions.com/ , invested 40 000 USD in equipment http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&page=1&message=1757137 THIS MEANS HE MUST BE A REAL PRO! :)

Right...a cutting edge pro with tons of gear .... and still can't take a decent basic shot. No wonder he starts personal insults - he has no facts or ammo left and he is frustrated - he thinks this is gear based art and so he is very picky if someone talks about his choices. In Finland we have these great sayings "happamia sanoi hettu pihlajanmarjoista" and "se koira älähtää mihin kalikka kalahtaa" and "s* t happens" which fit the situation 100% :)

Strangest in this who enormous thread is that some think I should NOT have defended my view - it is viewed as hostile and unprofessional! So everyone here can discuss my views except me, even though I do not attack people and try to be polite and stay on facts to the end. Small talk is fine but real debate is an attack. Sad.

I'm so tired talking to empty persons like him - luckily 99.9% of others here are intelligent and can talk. For example the guy who started this thread was capable of intelligent debate and we seemed to have an understanding with him how this matter is: read http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=1754729 and the following message. Thanks to him and many others for being able to talk.

Still this James Kiricov tries to add wood to the fire with insane posts at full steam. I'm sorry for him for his problems but I'm not a target who will just sit back and take it all happily.
 
greg mclemore said:
... I strongly corrected your very
erronous statement where you said that the D-30s images are FAR
superior to that from a E-10/20.
Click to expand...
It was my humble opinion and you cannot correct ("strongly" or otherwise) ones opinions. Pure opinions (matters of taste) as such cannot be right or wrong. Instead you can make me CHANGE my opinion by laying down strong opposite proofs and arguments. In your numerous messages you haven't done it even when requested. I have backed up my views using image crops and pinpointing details. By far you haven't done nothing but repeating the your mantra: "D30 is NOT far superior..." which is of course your opinion and entitled to it, but discussion needs more to keep it alive and intellectual.
greg mclemore said:
Since you imply that
you do not know where to find gifted work done with E-10s check
out Belgium Digital and gallerys by some of the talented
phographers on this site. LOOK!
Click to expand...
Look for yourself what I have posted today about http://www.belgiumdigital.com
greg mclemore said:
Lastly stop changing ones words , I
never said that the E-10 was great, stop trying to change the
content of what I said to strengthen your pointless position.
Click to expand...
Sorry, if that have happened. Just curious where exactly I have done that?
greg mclemore said:
content of what I said to strengthen your pointless position.
Click to expand...
It is not pointless just because you said it. You are not that big authority around here. You seem to be saying things and labelling opinions without proofs and facts. Are you just amusing yourself or what?
greg mclemore said:
What
can be gained by attempting to minimize a group of users of a
specific camera in favor of another group.
Click to expand...
Now who is changing words? In this thread I have steered my effords only to talk about cameras and cameras only. Take that back if you cannot point where on earth I have "minimized GROUP of users"! (That really would be unforgivable!) If you happen to feel minimized, when in my words E-10 have been minimized next to D30, that is clearly your mental problem and yours only. I kindly suggest don't mix other E-10 users to that.

...but I have seen this kind of unjustified statements before when someone is out of "bullets" considering the original topic of conversation: taking something personally when lacking further arguments. Please, let's get back to topic.
greg mclemore said:
Stop the negativity.
Click to expand...
Negativity? Look for yourself what I have posted lately about http://www.belgiumdigital.com
greg mclemore said:
My response to you was regarding your original
statement about the D-30 having Far better image quality than the
E-10, a statement that in my opinion is not true.
Click to expand...
We are entitled to our opinions. Now enrich this talk by giving proofs, facts, just do something else than repeat. This is not negativity, I am truly worried if this is not going to improve.
greg mclemore said:
Everyone knows
that the canons images are smoother than that produced by the E-10.
they are both very good cameras you are in error where you said
Far, implying a very big difference, that is where I disagree with
you. Matti get up from your computer and go out and use that
great D-30. This dialog is pointless .
Click to expand...
Don't flatter yourself. This is not dialog at all if you don't get into details, comment my example crops, pinpoint some reality pictures (give link, discuss it carefully etc.) e.g. where the E-10 is on par or close with D30. You seem to be just "disagree" everywhere and that just one lame word. It's not dialog nor discussion.

(Greg, please apply some paragraphing to your messages: gives more impact and clarity)

Cheers,
Matti J.
 
There are two kinds of experience:

A. 20 times 1 year of experience
(skils not cumulating, not even with multibuck gear)

B. 20 years of experience (skills cumulating, even with PS)
Pekka Saarinen said:
Matti J. said:
Pekka Saarinen said:
Jim K wrote (to Pekka Saarinen):
Pekka Saarinen said:
... As for your photo's they are IMHO very
non inspiring, they do not do the D30 justice and proves that the
true worth is in the talent and not the tool.
...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
...and talking about talent: If selfrespecting photographers
publish only the very best shots they have taken, it would be
amusing to see how the the other ones turned out:

http://www.jimsphotopage.com/digital/e20/set01/imagepages/image8.htm

If one cannot get even the basic photographic points straight , it
is somewhat peculiar to critisize Pekka to this degree.
Click to expand...
But Matti, don't you see he has a cutting edge company
http://www.brandxproductions.com/ , invested 40 000 USD in
equipment

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&page=1&message=1757137 THIS MEANS HE MUST BE A REAL PRO! :)

Right...a cutting edge pro with tons of gear .... and still can't
take a decent basic shot. No wonder he starts personal insults -
Click to expand...
 
Matti J. said:
greg mclemore said:
... I strongly corrected your very
erronous statement where you said that the D-30s images are FAR
superior to that from a E-10/20.
Click to expand...
It was my humble opinion and you cannot correct ("strongly" or
otherwise) ones opinions. Pure opinions (matters of taste) as such
cannot be right or wrong. Instead you can make me CHANGE my opinion
by laying down strong opposite proofs and arguments. In your
numerous messages you haven't done it even when requested. I have
backed up my views using image crops and pinpointing details. By
far you haven't done nothing but repeating the your mantra: "D30 is
NOT far superior..." which is of course your opinion and entitled
to it, but discussion needs more to keep it alive and intellectual.
Matti J. said:
Since you imply that
you do not know where to find gifted work done with E-10s check
out Belgium Digital and gallerys by some of the talented
phographers on this site. LOOK!
Click to expand...
Look for yourself what I have posted today about
http://www.belgiumdigital.com
Matti J. said:
Lastly stop changing ones words , I
never said that the E-10 was great, stop trying to change the
content of what I said to strengthen your pointless position.
Click to expand...
Sorry, if that have happened. Just curious where exactly I have
done that?
Matti J. said:
content of what I said to strengthen your pointless position.
Click to expand...
It is not pointless just because you said it. You are not that
big authority around here. You seem to be saying things and
labelling opinions without proofs and facts. Are you just amusing
yourself or what?
Matti J. said:
What
can be gained by attempting to minimize a group of users of a
specific camera in favor of another group.
Click to expand...
Now who is changing words? In this thread I have steered my effords
only to talk about cameras and cameras only. Take that back if you
cannot point where on earth I have "minimized GROUP of users"!
(That really would be unforgivable!) If you happen to feel
minimized, when in my words E-10 have been minimized next to D30,
that is clearly your mental problem and yours only. I kindly
suggest don't mix other E-10 users to that.

...but I have seen this kind of unjustified statements before when
someone is out of "bullets" considering the original topic of
conversation: taking something personally when lacking further
arguments. Please, let's get back to topic.
Matti J. said:
Stop the negativity.
Click to expand...
Negativity? Look for yourself what I have posted lately about
http://www.belgiumdigital.com
Matti J. said:
My response to you was regarding your original
statement about the D-30 having Far better image quality than the
E-10, a statement that in my opinion is not true.
Click to expand...
We are entitled to our opinions. Now enrich this talk by giving
proofs, facts, just do something else than repeat. This is not
negativity, I am truly worried if this is not going to improve.
Matti J. said:
Everyone knows
that the canons images are smoother than that produced by the E-10.
they are both very good cameras you are in error where you said
Far, implying a very big difference, that is where I disagree with
you. Matti get up from your computer and go out and use that
great D-30. This dialog is pointless .
Click to expand...
Don't flatter yourself. This is not dialog at all if you don't get
into details, comment my example crops, pinpoint some reality
pictures (give link, discuss it carefully etc.) e.g. where the E-10
is on par or close with D30. You seem to be just "disagree"
everywhere and that just one lame word. It's not dialog nor
discussion.

(Greg, please apply some paragraphing to your messages: gives more
impact and clarity)

Cheers,
Matti J.
Click to expand...
Gentleman and folks! I spent the last 3 hours reading all the posts here (over 120) to see what else ticks on sites other than Nikon. I must admit, I am a devoted Nikon user. My humble opinion, to say the least, is: that you are comparing apples to greenbeans. I cannot understand why these Canon people keep trying to compare their D30 SLR to the Olympus' E10 or E20?

Anyone interested in buying a Digital SLR, is at least making that decision because of the opportunity to use existing lenses, or is willing to make a long term investment in photgraphy; digital or film. The Olympus model is strictly for amateurs, as is any fixed lense camera.
 
I have to jump in here and take issue with this posters attitude problem, I have been shooting professionally for a number of years, by that I mean I make my living using cameras to take pictures, my clients don't seem to particularly care what brand name is on the camera, they just look at the results. I've had lots of Nikon equipment and still have an old favorite beater I haul around as a keepsake, but to make the comment he does about only amateurs using fixed lenses just shows how ignorant a lot of people can get, like I said, I know about Nikons, I also know that a good % of Nikon users have a huge chip on their shoulder, it's certainly showing up in this fellows post! I am reminded of the time a woman with her son came up to Alfred Eisenstadt and asked what type of camera he used, he replied that he used mostly leica's, the woman turned to her son and said "...see, I'm going to get you a leica, then you can take good pictures just like him..."

Sorry sir, as has been said on this forum before, it's not the camera, it's the person behind it...!! I know of many others, besides myself, using the E-10 fixed lens camera PROFESSIONALLY, and getting phenominal results.
Scott66322 said:
Gentleman and folks! I spent the last 3 hours reading all the posts
here (over 120) to see what else ticks on sites other than Nikon. I
must admit, I am a devoted Nikon user. My humble opinion, to say
the least, is: that you are comparing apples to greenbeans. I
cannot understand why these Canon people keep trying to compare
their D30 SLR to the Olympus' E10 or E20?

Anyone interested in buying a Digital SLR, is at least making that
decision because of the opportunity to use existing lenses, or is
willing to make a long term investment in photgraphy; digital or
film. The Olympus model is strictly for amateurs, as is any fixed
lense camera.
Click to expand...
 
It may be a little late, but my 2 cents:

This is not an ANTI post against any camera. Just a correction to a camera-cost figure.

My D30 cost me $2400. I already had a Tamron 28-300 lens and Canon 380 EX flash. My total cost to get the D30 was $2400. NOT $10,000. But if I want to get a nice L lens, I can. Maybe a Sigma 15-35 wide angle, would be nice.

I have no argument against the Oly cameras, that is what I started with, but to say it costs $10,000 to get a D30 is just nonsense. That statement is the ONLY reason I posted this. Get real.

I really like my D30, and I'm sure Oly SLR owners really like their cameras, and that's wonderful. But for someone who came from the Canon film camers, the D30 makes PERFECT sense. A very economical way to get into a high-end digicam. I considered the E series Oly's but went with the D30 for a number of reasons, besides the easy transfer of Canon equipment to the new camera.
Brian Mackey said:
Laurie, his tone is not wrong, but he is. the camera is a SLR,
everyone knows that the "D30-system" may be superior, if you can
afford it. But the camera itself is not. Since if you buy the E-20
you have a working camera, vs the D30 one does not. More $$$$$$ is
required

2.000 vs about 10,000
Click to expand...
 
I could have bought a Canon EOS 3, and saved lots of money, but I would always hesitate to take the multiple shots it takes to guarantee I got the shot I wanted, and would miss lots of great shots that way, not to mention not being able to see what I acutally got on film until I got back in town. And I'd have to pay for the printing of dud pics, too. Then you have to spend $10,000 for a film scanner to get the pics into the PC at any comparable quality level.

Much higher up-front costs with digital perhaps, but much lower operating costs.

Spend $10,000 up front or spend it on film and developing costs. Don't forget, when you shoot digital, you don't have to wait to get your pictures developed, or be at the mercy of someone elses idea of good color.

I didn't post in the "How big is yours" (hobby expenses that is) thread, but will re-cap my hobby expenses here, as the $$$ seems to be important to some in this thread.

I already had a Canon Rebel G with a Tamron 28-300 lens (

Add a Sigma 15-35 lens soon (

Add an upgrade up to the 550 EX flash (

If I had it, I would gladly spend $5500 to trade up to the 1D and be done spending money.

So, for $9700 (spread out over 4-6 years) I can have a pro setup.

It is JUST my hobby, but I, like the other poster, don't smoke/drink/golf/boat/ski/surf/collect anything/chase women or any other expensive hobby. I take pictures, and mostly of my family. I spend all my free time WITH my family. I process my pics in the living room with my family. I'd say that's a good hobby, wouldn't you?

I could have kept the money, but then I would have been a very bored man with $10,00 more in the bank, than I already have.

You go to work and make money to do several things. Pay bills, take care of your family's needs, take care of others needs, save for retirement, and have fun. If it weren't for the fun, there would be far less motivation to take on all the rest.

Photography is a very rewarding hobby and well worth the $10,000 investment. I'm sure any of you would spend a similar amount on any hobby you were interested in, if you had that much disposable income. Don't forget, I spent only $3200 so far, and that over a 4 year period. That comes out to 800/year or $66 per month. $16.50 per week, or about the cost of 2 six packs of micro-brewery beer a week, or 4 mixed drinks in a bar. Give up drinking, and YOU could have a D30, too!

Try collecting guns as a hobby, with high quality pistols going for $700-$800 and spending $16 for bullets, to punch 50 holes in a piece of paper. When you're done, you just have a piece of paper with holes in it, albeit, rather close together holes, if you're any good!

Or buy a $6000 jet ski and use it 10 times a year.

Don't even mention boats!

As for the E10, I rejected that camera (for myself only, to be sure) because of the noise levels. I wanted blue skies, not speckled skies like I got from my C2100 UZ. The D30 gives me what I wanted and more. And an affordable hobby to boot (for just about anyone who can budget). And I can expand my hobby as far as I want to go. Now that's a good deal.

Enjoy your E10/E20 cameras, your D1* cameras, your Sony 707's, etc. And take lots of pictures of your family, so you can remember them when you get old.

Ted
Jason Stoller said:
I guess I am confused here! While I love digital and I own two
digital cameras, I am wondering about something here! If you are
going to spend $10,000 aren't you better off just staying with Film?

Just a thought!
Jason
Click to expand...
 
What a great picture! Wish I could do work like this!

What camera/lens?

I think that money IS an object and that's why people settle for less camera than they would like to have. I had to stretch hard to get my D30 and will stretch even harder some day to get a 1D. Then even harder to get a 2D...3D...4D...then I'll just croak and be done with it! Then my SON will start stretching for nice equipment and the beat goes on.

If money were no object I'd have a Hasselblaad (sorry if I misspelled it) and a 16 megapixel digital back for it ($28,000 total?). But money is an object for all of us, so be happy with what you CAN afford.

 
Matti J. said:
Matti J. said:
Jim K wrote (to Pekka Saarinen):
Matti J. said:
... As for your photo's they are IMHO very
non inspiring, they do not do the D30 justice and proves that the
true worth is in the talent and not the tool.
...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
...and talking about talent: If selfrespecting photographers
publish only the very best shots they have taken, it would be
amusing to see how the the other ones turned out:

http://www.jimsphotopage.com/digital/e20/set01/imagepages/image8.htm

If one cannot get even the basic photographic points straight , it
is somewhat peculiar to critisize Pekka to this degree.

Cheers,
Matti Jarventausta
Click to expand...
Hey Matti, you can be the head cheerleader for Pekker, I don't care. As for my posts they were as I reported quick takes for the camera, which I had just got.

Regards,
Jim K
 
Jim K said:
Matti J. said:
Jim K53618 said:
Jim K wrote (to Pekka Saarinen):
Jim K53618 said:
... As for your photo's they are IMHO very
non inspiring, they do not do the D30 justice and proves that the
true worth is in the talent and not the tool.
...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
...and talking about talent: If selfrespecting photographers
publish only the very best shots they have taken, it would be
amusing to see how the the other ones turned out:

http://www.jimsphotopage.com/digital/e20/set01/imagepages/image8.htm

If one cannot get even the basic photographic points straight , it
is somewhat peculiar to critisize Pekka to this degree.

Cheers,
Matti Jarventausta
Click to expand...
Hey Matti, you can be the head cheerleader for Pekker, I don't
care. As for my posts they were as I reported quick takes for the
camera, which I had just got.
Regards,
Jim K
Click to expand...
Cheerleader, LOL! Nevertheless I am smelling a sligth envy on Jimmys side towards P. Saarinen. Well, that is only human ;-)

Cheers,
Matti J.
 
Jim K said:
Matti J. said:
Jim K53618 said:
Jim K wrote (to Pekka Saarinen):
Jim K53618 said:
... As for your photo's they are IMHO very
non inspiring, they do not do the D30 justice and proves that the
true worth is in the talent and not the tool.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
...and talking about talent: If selfrespecting photographers
publish only the very best shots they have taken, it would be
amusing to see how the the other ones turned out:

http://www.jimsphotopage.com/digital/e20/set01/imagepages/image8.htm

If one cannot get even the basic photographic points straight , it
is somewhat peculiar to critisize Pekka to this degree.

Cheers,
Matti Jarventausta
Click to expand...
Hey Matti, you can be the head cheerleader for Pekker, I don't
care. As for my posts they were as I reported quick takes for the
camera, which I had just got.
Regards,
Jim K
Click to expand...
Jim, I can surely accept your excuse for the gallery of quick snap shots, but on a contrast P. Saarinen never ever have excused anything like that because he doesn't need to. He is publishing always top notch work, never some "snap shots" taken in a hurry or else.

As I stated before "selfrespecting photographers" never release anything but their best, not so-so stuff. This seems to be somekind of priciple among the pro and pro-minded amateurs. Doing otherwise would be just plain embarrasing and affecting their reputation as artists (whenever it is their concern).

As I now see it, there are other kind of (pro)photographers around too. So, these things in mind it sounds even more peculiar to critize the excellent work of P. Saarinen without thinking there is just plain envy emerging. You know, the professional envying the superior work of amateurs and thus ackwardly trying to diminish their art. A neo-classic drama.

Cheers,
Matti J.
 
BTW: A side note to everlasting discussion if E-XX are SLR or not. See what Phil thinks: go to http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp and check the first dropdown list for "SLR" and search all and then to "SLR like" and search all. Which list holds E10 and E20?

Seems that I am not the only one who considers an "SLR tag" to contain more than just definition of one internal mirror.

Pekka
 
Matti Jarventausta said:
As I now see it, there are other kind of (pro)photographers around
too. So, these things in mind it sounds even more peculiar to
critize the excellent work of P. Saarinen without thinking there is
just plain envy emerging. You know, the professional envying the
superior work of amateurs and thus ackwardly trying to diminish
their art. A neo-classic drama.

Cheers,
Matti J.
Click to expand...
So lets see your stuff Matti. It certainly can't be worse then Pekkers : ))

Jim K
 
Pekka Saarinen said:
BTW: A side note to everlasting discussion if E-XX are SLR or not.
See what Phil thinks: go to
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp and check the first
dropdown list for "SLR" and search all and then to "SLR like" and
search all. Which list holds E10 and E20?

Seems that I am not the only one who considers an "SLR tag" to
contain more than just definition of one internal mirror.

Pekka
Click to expand...
Some camera publications introduced the word ZLR (fixed Zoom Lens Reflex or so) some time ago and as some of the E-XX users (on this forum) have stated it is quite appropriate gategory name for E-XX and alikes.

Matti J.
 
Jim K said:
So lets see your stuff Matti. It certainly can't be worse then
Pekkers : ))
Click to expand...
Sorry to dissapoint you, there is nothing to see (yet), atleast nothing comparing to the art of P. Saarinen. As a matter of fact it would be "suicide" because if you cannot appreciate P. Saarinen's superior work, my stuff would be just a target of even more wild blind insults and I am a "selfrespecting photographer" too with criticism enough for not to publish pics that are not in a level that I demand from myself. Not yet. Unlike you, I can spot a good photograph when I see it. I am still trying hard and still learning. Well, I am not that bad, but I have my standards. But when I do publish them, maybe I'll let you know.

This thread was not about my photography at all and suggesting something like this is just an hopeless efford to steer the talk from the original subject. Jim is out of bullets.

Cheers,
Matti J.
 
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