-
Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
What is the meaning of 'prime' (you may be surprised)
- Thread starter Klipsen
- Start date
David Mazeau
Veteran Member
http://www.digiprimes.com/2005/primes/index.shtml
According to the folks at Carl Zeiss:
"Cinematographers have long appreciated the advantages of prime lenses".
According to the folks at Carl Zeiss:
"Cinematographers have long appreciated the advantages of prime lenses".
Not people in the know, I'm sure.
That doesn't mean you have to. Or that I have to.
How about 'lens'? Or 'fix'?
Anyway, I started this to point to the fact that all those who correct others for using 'prime' about zooms have no reason for doing so. If I want to call a zoom 'prime' I can do so, and so can anybody. And it's not a misnomer. Suddenly a lot of people who use the term incorrectly are defending their right to do so, while blaming me for defending my right to use the term correctly and pointing to that fact. It's a funny old world, innit?
Did you notice the "registered trademark"? They may have been inspired by common use of the term, but have they used it before?
Have you found it in litterature from lens manufacturers?
Petteri Sulonen
Forum Pro
...where you can join the folks agitating for abolishing ISO in favor of gain and focal length millimeters in favor of radians. I'm sure you'll find each other to be splendid company.
Move along, nothing to see here...
Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
My RSS feed: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/rss/whatsnew.xml ]
My flickr page: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/primejunta/ ]
Move along, nothing to see here...
Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
My RSS feed: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/rss/whatsnew.xml ]
My flickr page: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/primejunta/ ]
and I think I can type it faster than prime. fixed, prime, fixed, prime, fixed, prime, fixed.
Nope, but I probably just need some practice.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root
Nope, but I probably just need some practice.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root
Jan Erik Stokke69103
Forum Enthusiast
Sorry, off topic but I couldn´t resist. I have the Contaflex II from late 50s in mint condition. With a prime lens as well as a secondary I guess. And a mirror that doesn´t flip back after the picture is taken. I start laughing every time I try it. Press the button and everything turns black.
Jan Erik
Jan Erik
Chuck Gardner
Forum Pro
The same word may have several different meanings depending on the context it is being used. Several words with the same meaning may be used to describe the same thing. The best usage in both cases is the one which will be most clearly understood.
Saying that a "zoom" lens is a "prime" lens when it is attached to the camera via a teleconverter may is technically correct but that terminology will not be widely understood because "prime" is a term of art in photography which is used to describe a fixed focal length lens. While the construction "prime zoom" is accurate lexicographically, a more effective way to describe the same thing would be to say "zoom lens plus teleconverter" because more people would clearly understand the meaning.
The term "zoom" itself is interesting. Prior to the invention of the variable focal length lens the word zoom was a verb commonly understood to mean "to make a loud, low pitched, humming or buzzing sound". but its use of a term of art in photography became so ubiquitous that is photographic usage was incorporated into the definition. One of the definitions of "zoom" in Websters NewWorld Dictionary is now "to focus a camera by using a zoom lens". "Zoom Lens" has its own separate definition as a noun right below zoom.
It's likely "prime lens" didn't merit inclusion under the definition of "prime" because in common usage the word lens is typically be used to describe any type of lens (e.g., a lens on the camera) while a zoom is added to specify the fact that it has a variable focal length. A red ring is added to signify it is expensive and the owner has more money than sense (myself included). In fact the word "prime" is usually only used by FFLZs (Fixed Focal Length Zealots) who distain the use of sliding lens elements on moral and ethical grounds, or because they are obsessed with photographing resolution charts and light camera bags.
Thankfully I don't own a telecoverter and will never have occasion to use the term "Prime Zoom" in the context below. But OTOH I could say my 24-70mm f/2.8 L is my "prime" zoom, because I use it more than my 70-200mm f/2.8 IS L.
But that would be splitting hairs.....
CG
Saying that a "zoom" lens is a "prime" lens when it is attached to the camera via a teleconverter may is technically correct but that terminology will not be widely understood because "prime" is a term of art in photography which is used to describe a fixed focal length lens. While the construction "prime zoom" is accurate lexicographically, a more effective way to describe the same thing would be to say "zoom lens plus teleconverter" because more people would clearly understand the meaning.
The term "zoom" itself is interesting. Prior to the invention of the variable focal length lens the word zoom was a verb commonly understood to mean "to make a loud, low pitched, humming or buzzing sound". but its use of a term of art in photography became so ubiquitous that is photographic usage was incorporated into the definition. One of the definitions of "zoom" in Websters NewWorld Dictionary is now "to focus a camera by using a zoom lens". "Zoom Lens" has its own separate definition as a noun right below zoom.
It's likely "prime lens" didn't merit inclusion under the definition of "prime" because in common usage the word lens is typically be used to describe any type of lens (e.g., a lens on the camera) while a zoom is added to specify the fact that it has a variable focal length. A red ring is added to signify it is expensive and the owner has more money than sense (myself included). In fact the word "prime" is usually only used by FFLZs (Fixed Focal Length Zealots) who distain the use of sliding lens elements on moral and ethical grounds, or because they are obsessed with photographing resolution charts and light camera bags.
Thankfully I don't own a telecoverter and will never have occasion to use the term "Prime Zoom" in the context below. But OTOH I could say my 24-70mm f/2.8 L is my "prime" zoom, because I use it more than my 70-200mm f/2.8 IS L.
But that would be splitting hairs.....
CG
Feel it - Shoot it - Understand it: Shoot with feeling always, then ask, 'How did I do that? How can I make it better?'. See: http://super.nova.org/DPR
Caer
Senior Member
But that's just point! They're not using the term incorrectly at all, since "prime" is now the established term for a lens with a fixed focal length (even internal-focus macro lenses which change focal length as you focus closer, but let's not go there).
It's been said enough times: common usage eventually defines what the "correct" definition is. English is full of examples but as has been mentioned before, that's not terribly relevant because "prime" is a specialist term used within the field of photography (and cinematography etc.).
You might want to give this page a read:
http://www.bartleby.com/64/3.html
--
http://www.caerphoto.com/
here you are discussing English.
English is a language - far more than many - which is very subtle in meanings and in which meanings of words change very rapidly and informally.
The actual meaning of "prime lens" hs come to be a fixed-focus lens (usually assumed to be of high quality). In English that means the word "prime" when applied to lenses has a meaning different from the regular word "prime"; or in other words the phrase "prime lens" has the meaning as it is commonly understood in the hobby and/or business of photography.
This is the real fact of the matter.
"Purists" - usually educators, very technically minded people, or snobs - often decry and denigrate the tendency of English meanings to change rapidly and informally, and try to force the language to remain static. The best phrase for this is from the Star Trek series - "Resistance is futile"...
There is also something of a tendency on the part of much of the world which despises the English-speaking peoples to dismiss English as a crude language without subtlety - this is far from the case. English is actually an extremely flexible, subtle and convolute language capable of great accuracy and equally great range - which is unfortunately very irregular in construction, making it a rather difficult language to learn to speak well when coming from most other languages.
Most people realize Arnold Schwartzneggar is far more than a muscle-bound hunk - after all he was a 17 year old farm boy who came to America, not speaking the language, who single-handedly revolutionized a business and sport - then becoming the highest paid movie star in history, a successful businessman, who married into America's own "royalty" (the
Kennedy family) - finally becoming governor of America's largest state ! If you are a movie buff, almost equally impressive is listening to Mr Schwarzneggar master the English language over his long series of films. It was obviously a major struggle for him - in which he succeeded very well, as he has in most things he has undertaken.
--
Best wishes, rennie12
'There is only now'
English is a language - far more than many - which is very subtle in meanings and in which meanings of words change very rapidly and informally.
The actual meaning of "prime lens" hs come to be a fixed-focus lens (usually assumed to be of high quality). In English that means the word "prime" when applied to lenses has a meaning different from the regular word "prime"; or in other words the phrase "prime lens" has the meaning as it is commonly understood in the hobby and/or business of photography.
This is the real fact of the matter.
"Purists" - usually educators, very technically minded people, or snobs - often decry and denigrate the tendency of English meanings to change rapidly and informally, and try to force the language to remain static. The best phrase for this is from the Star Trek series - "Resistance is futile"...
There is also something of a tendency on the part of much of the world which despises the English-speaking peoples to dismiss English as a crude language without subtlety - this is far from the case. English is actually an extremely flexible, subtle and convolute language capable of great accuracy and equally great range - which is unfortunately very irregular in construction, making it a rather difficult language to learn to speak well when coming from most other languages.
Most people realize Arnold Schwartzneggar is far more than a muscle-bound hunk - after all he was a 17 year old farm boy who came to America, not speaking the language, who single-handedly revolutionized a business and sport - then becoming the highest paid movie star in history, a successful businessman, who married into America's own "royalty" (the
Kennedy family) - finally becoming governor of America's largest state ! If you are a movie buff, almost equally impressive is listening to Mr Schwarzneggar master the English language over his long series of films. It was obviously a major struggle for him - in which he succeeded very well, as he has in most things he has undertaken.
--
Best wishes, rennie12
'There is only now'
David Mazeau
Veteran Member
Your thread is a good one, and I don't fault you for starting it, but
so far I see only one guy in "alt.photography" backing it up.
There are these things called "misnomers", and "prime" may be that,
but I'm still not convinced there is any historical basis for what you're
saying.
Here's a bunch of other "misnomers":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misnomers
PhotoTraveler
Forum Pro
So what is a Leica Trilamar (sp?). Its 3 defined focal lengths in one lens.
--
Minolta 1929-2006, you will be missed so very much. You rode with Glen into the space
age, if only we could all ride along with you into the digital age forever.
--
Minolta 1929-2006, you will be missed so very much. You rode with Glen into the space
age, if only we could all ride along with you into the digital age forever.
nickleback
Forum Pro
Expensive.
--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
David Mazeau
Veteran Member
I'm only 44, so I am not the best person to talk about this, but in
1973 I don't recall seeing the word "prime" in any of the photography
books I found at the public library.
The word may be rather new in the field of photography, and so
manufacturers are avoiding it, except for Zeiss, of course.
Words are tricky things. Their meaning is based on their history of
usage. They aren't defined at the start.
I'd guess that the word "prime" had no wide usage in the field of
photography, 35 years ago. But I'm only 44 years old, so I don't
know for sure.
Glen Barrington
Forum Pro
A true zoom lens maintains focus as the focal length changes. If your "zoom" requires that you refocus after changing the focal length, then it AIN'T a zoom! (It's MUCH cheaper to build a variable focal length lens than it is a zoom lens)
--
Some see the cup as half empty, others see the cup as half full. Personally, I see the cup being knocked over.
--
Some see the cup as half empty, others see the cup as half full. Personally, I see the cup being knocked over.
yesfan02
Leading Member
--The word" Prime" indicates a lens that is of" fixed focal length" and normaly the lens sold with the camera . I.E. Pentax p 30 50mm Zenit-E 52mm Konica TTL 57mm . Combo lenses, as they were call 35 years ago ,70-210 3.5-5.6 for example are not prime although you can use it"AS" a prime. I used, for years, a 135 vivitar"AS" my primary lens and now use a 18-50 "AS" my prime. Just for the he__ of it, go to the camera shop and ask to see a prime lens and see what he shows you .
Soon! Oh Soon the light. Ours to shape for all time, ours the right. The sun will lead us, our reason to be here.
But are you saying that the old definition is wrong then? If it is still used by some people it can't be.
And fixed focal length lens isn't?
Nothing about primes, I'm afraid.
What the majority here seems to be doing is tell me that the word 'prime' can no longer be used about a zoom, because the same majority has monopolised its use. So I'm not allowed to be "wrong", but those whose definition is in conflict with the original definition are right by virtue of having used it wrongly long enough? They even have the right to say that the original definition is wrong!
Don't be an idiot! That sort of argument is invariably used by people who don't want to aggree, but can't argue against, so they shift the focus to something most people will aggree is foolish or meaningless.
Omnis simili claudicat.
Come up with relevant arguments or stay out.
Nobody needs you to tell them what's worth seeing.
Petteri Sulonen
Forum Pro
All I'm saying is that you're tilting at windmills. There's an enormous amount of cultural inertia attached to these terms, and, more importantly, they work . When you say "prime" or "ISO" or "28 mm," people understand what you're talking about.
Go ahead, start using the word "prime" in its original sense, and watch the confusion unfold. Enjoy it. Personally, I find that comprehension is more important than pedantic accuracy.
Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
My RSS feed: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/rss/whatsnew.xml ]
My flickr page: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/primejunta/ ]
Go ahead, start using the word "prime" in its original sense, and watch the confusion unfold. Enjoy it. Personally, I find that comprehension is more important than pedantic accuracy.
Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
My RSS feed: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/rss/whatsnew.xml ]
My flickr page: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/primejunta/ ]
Keyboard shortcuts
- f
- Forum