4/3 and SA delimma

Sigma would be committing suicide by ditching the APS sized Foveon sensor for an even smaller 4/3 one....No one in their right mind would buy one...I know I would'nt!

If anything they need to use a bigger Foveon X3 sensor to reduce the SD9 and SD10's wopping 1.7x crop factor to a more photographer-friendly crop factor of at least 1.6x but preferably down to something between 1.3x and 1.5x, which would compare to most of its Bayer sensored rivals.

This would not only allow for higher pixel density without any noticable noise penalty but it will also greatly please those who like to do lots of high detail landscape and pano work.

Anything less and the anti-Sigma critics waiting to pounce on it for the smallest of flaws would simply have a field day,...In fact anything less and Sigma may as well kiss goodbye to the DSLR market!

Regards

DSG
--
http://sigmasd10.fotopic.net/
 
Let me get this straight...you have handled a 4/3 camera with an EVF?

Are you sure it takes 4/3 lenses? I am getting excited regarding this new camera.
And I had the opportunity to play with a particularly cool 4/3
camera recently: electronic shutter, EVF (possibly the nicest I've
seen on anything except the Panavision Genesis), small, and
virtually silent.
--
-Who are the Chromats, and why are they aberrating?-
 
Are you sure it takes 4/3 lenses? I am getting excited regarding
this new camera.
And I had the opportunity to play with a particularly cool 4/3
camera recently: electronic shutter, EVF (possibly the nicest I've
seen on anything except the Panavision Genesis), small, and
virtually silent.
--
-Who are the Chromats, and why are they aberrating?-
--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twentyone, eight, and two, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Fifteen and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and nine, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
And I had the opportunity to play with a particularly cool 4/3
camera recently: electronic shutter, EVF (possibly the nicest I've
seen on anything except the Panavision Genesis), small, and
virtually silent.
Ui, intersting ;-)

greatings from the 4/3 world

---

PS: I do not believe that Sigma would drop the SA mount. Sigmas main business is to sell lenses and the difference between Sigma lenses for Canon EF and for Sigma SA mount are very small, so having the SA system with no competition of other 3rd party lens makers has no disadvantages for Sigma, even if the SA system is a very small one.

4/3 needs different and new lenses with higher resolution than 35mm lenses because the pixels are smaller. (Sadly) not a really profitable market for Sigma (now). Why should they make a lens only for 4/3, if they can sell many times more lenses for Nikon F and Canon EF (and Sigma SA and Pentax and Minolta)
 
that the SA mount is going the way of the M42 mount. There is no
doubt in my mind that in say 50-75 years you will not be able to
buy a camera body that you can mount a SA lens on with out an
adapter.
I wouldn't guess that you'll be able to buy such an adapter, at
all. The SA mount registration (sensor to lens flange) distance is
the same as Canon (where you still can't make an adapter, because
you can't fit in the contacts), and shorter than anyting else,
except 4/3. So, you can't have an adapter to put SA on a Canon,
Nikon, Pentax, Minolta, etc. leaving just 4/3.
one could try swapping mounts for canon ;)
Always wanted to try how compatible it is the other way around (SA
lens on EOS Body) but did not have the time so far...
I converted my SA mount 100-300mm f/4 EX to EOS mount , works fine on the 1D and 300D.
Regards,
Jerry
 
that the SA mount is going the way of the M42 mount. There is no
doubt in my mind that in say 50-75 years you will not be able to
buy a camera body that you can mount a SA lens on with out an
adapter.

Sorry that I can not speculate about anythign else.
Well, oddly I only know one thing for sure as well - Tom Rowland predictions will turn out to be wrong in the long run.

Sorry that I can not speculate about anything else.

Even more oddly that last sentance would seem to imply that I am in fact speculating instead of knowing! Oddities abound.

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.kigiphoto.com/Gallery
 
Hi,

I know this topic has been through before. I just want to see what
people think about it now. Perhaps I am beating a dead horse but
would SA mount be eventually phrased out? Should one stop
collecting SA-mount lenses and save up for the new 4/3 system? I
understand that Sigma would continue their SA lenses along with the
new 4/3 lenses for the time being but I would hate to spend all the
money to build a whole system of SA lenses and then they become
worthless.
It comes down to these two simple and at least non-contradictory statements:

1) If Sigma is going to continue to make cameras they will contine to use the SA mount.

2) If Sigma is not going to continue to make cameras they will not continue to use the SA mount.

Point 2 is obvious. Point 1 looks at the question from a light not often shined on the subject, which is - why is Sigma making cameras in the first place? If the eventual goal is to become a camera maker as large as Nikon or Canon then the only course of action that makes sense is a unique mount, just as Canon built thier empire on the Canon mount.

After all, did Canon grow to the size they are by using the Nikon mount to start with?

A bonus question - If the four thirds mounts is going to be a roaring success, why are we not all using M42 lenses today?

Basically in my mind the whole camera industry is in flux and I don't think you can yet call a long-term winner. It's like looking into a hurricane and prediciting a particular cat flying through the air will wind up on a roof or up a tree.

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.kigiphoto.com/Gallery
 
My speculation is that you are speculating correctly about his speculations.

Hey Kendall, is there a difference between speculations and rumors?
that the SA mount is going the way of the M42 mount. There is no
doubt in my mind that in say 50-75 years you will not be able to
buy a camera body that you can mount a SA lens on with out an
adapter.

Sorry that I can not speculate about anythign else.
Well, oddly I only know one thing for sure as well - Tom Rowland
predictions will turn out to be wrong in the long run.

Sorry that I can not speculate about anything else.

Even more oddly that last sentance would seem to imply that I am in
fact speculating instead of knowing! Oddities abound.

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.kigiphoto.com/Gallery
--
Laurence

There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)
 
Hi,

I know this topic has been through before. I just want to see what
people think about it now. Perhaps I am beating a dead horse but
would SA mount be eventually phrased out? Should one stop
collecting SA-mount lenses and save up for the new 4/3 system? I
understand that Sigma would continue their SA lenses along with the
new 4/3 lenses for the time being but I would hate to spend all the
money to build a whole system of SA lenses and then they become
worthless.
It comes down to these two simple and at least non-contradictory
statements:
No, it doesn't. While your two statements are non-contradicting, they do not include all possabilities, nor are they mutually exclusive.
1) If Sigma is going to continue to make cameras they will contine
to use the SA mount.

2) If Sigma is not going to continue to make cameras they will not
continue to use the SA mount.

Point 2 is obvious. Point 1 looks at the question from a light not
often shined on the subject, which is - why is Sigma making cameras
in the first place? If the eventual goal is to become a camera
maker as large as Nikon or Canon then the only course of action
that makes sense is a unique mount, just as Canon built thier
empire on the Canon mount.
Here's the primary flaw. Canon's new mount gave them several tactical advantages compared to their old mount, or any other mount currently on the market. Although Nikon actually had an AF version of the Nikon mount on the market before Canon had EOS, and Minolta had their Maxxum/Dynax mount, it's pretty obvious that EOS was such a huge move that Canon was planning it well before the Nikon and Minolta launches.

Canon designed the EOS mount to give them a tactical advantage over every other mount on the market.

EOS is more mechanically reliable that Canon's FD "breechlock" mount, and indexes more precisely than Canon's FD, Nikon's F, or either Minoltas old or new mounts.

EOS has all the good features of every other mount: electrically operated in lens aperture mechanism (like Minolta Maxxum), electrically operated in lens focus motor (like Nikon's first system, F3-AF).

EOS is a big mount, accomodates f1.0 and f1.2 lenses much easier than the Nikon or Minolta mounts.

EOS has a reduced registration distance, which let Canon make and sell a Nikon adapter (yes, as a Canon branded part) to woo Nikon users.

The SA mount doens't offer users any advantage over any other modern mount, it's not a sales tool, it's a tool for Sigma to restrict users.
After all, did Canon grow to the size they are by using the Nikon
mount to start with?
Actually, Canon chose to "start with" Nikon making their lenses. But they grew "to the size they are" by designing a unique mount, built to do everything right.
A bonus question - If the four thirds mounts is going to be a
roaring success, why are we not all using M42 lenses today?
Ummm, because M42 doesn't accomodate autofocus, any camera control of aperture control at all (whether electrically or mechanically coupled), doesn't lock lenses in place so they can "escape", and takes three turns to mount a lens, instead of a 60 degree rotation like a 3 claw bayonette.

In short, M42 offers a lot less than people expect from a lens mount. Four-thirds, on the other hand, offers a lot more than people expect, and the things it offers will eventially become part of what people do expect. It raises the bar. The four-thirds mount offers advantages (for small sensor cameras, anyway) over every other mount on the market, including Canon's EOS.

4/3 extends the "electrically operated" concept to focus by wire and zoom by wire. The cameras has to support these protocols, although it's not mandatory for lenses to support either of them: Oly 4/3 lenses support focus by wire, Oly lenses don't, and neither support zoom by wire.

4/3 adds a storage area to each lens for abberation correction parameters, so a camera can use this data internally to correct images, or carry it through to the raw file for later processing.

4/3 has a 2 way communication protocol, so a lens's chip can be flashed, by the user in the field. No more sending lenses back to Sigma to be "rechipped" when a new camera breaks the AF ballistics parameters.
Basically in my mind the whole camera industry is in flux and I
don't think you can yet call a long-term winner. It's like looking
into a hurricane and prediciting a particular cat flying through
the air will wind up on a roof or up a tree.

--
---> Kendall
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
http://www.kigiphoto.com/Gallery
--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twentyone, eight, and two, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Fifteen and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and nine, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
that the SA mount is going the way of the M42 mount. There is no
doubt in my mind that in say 50-75 years you will not be able to
buy a camera body that you can mount a SA lens on with out an
adapter.

Sorry that I can not speculate about anythign else.
Well, oddly I only know one thing for sure as well - Tom Rowland
predictions will turn out to be wrong in the long run.
The odds are that they will be correct. In the course of 50-75 years, Canon has changed their mount four times (rangefinder, breech lock, FD (a partially backwards compatible, disguised breech lock) and EOS. Pentax went from M42 to K, and although they're the backwards compatability kings, they're starting to lose it on the lower cost lenses. Nikon went from rangefinder to F, and like Pentax they're starting to lose backwards compatability (G lenses won't work on older bodies, new bodies can't meter with AI lenses). Oly changed mounts so many times I've lost count. Sigma went from prototypes with the Nikon mount to production cameras with a variation of the Canon mount.
Sorry that I can not speculate about anything else.
Come on, it's fun.
Even more oddly that last sentance would seem to imply that I am in
fact speculating instead of knowing! Oddities abound.
Actually, you said you "know one thing for sure". ;)

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twentyone, eight, and two, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Fifteen and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and nine, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Thanks Joe for the explanation...will I be able to use cameras with
the 4/3 mount with my SA-mount lenses and an adapter? An industry
standard for lens mounts is long overdue.
The 4/3 mount has a wonderfully short registration distance, and you can make an adapter for just about any system. Mounts for lenses like Sigma or Canon need a "smart" adapter with a processor that can translate 4/3 protocol to Canon protocol, but Sigma has knowledge of both protocols, so such an adapter should be child's play to them.
Now let's see...if I could just find my 2x converter!!!
It should have gone out by now. If not, I'll stop asking our part tiem office girl to send it, and just drive it down to the post office myself.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twentyone, eight, and two, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Fifteen and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and nine, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
The SA mount doens't offer users any advantage over any other
modern mount
Oh, I think think you will find it does...I'm sure you will recall that the SA mount is almost a clone of the EOS mount, only smaller in diameter so if the EOS mount has adavantages over other camera mounts then I'm sure you will agree, the SA mount must also have at least some of those advantages over other mounts.

The SA mount is neater and simpler than Nikon, OM, PK and MD mounts and apart from the size adavantage of the EOS mount I dont really see any other adavantages of the EOS mount over the SA mount.
, it's a tool for Sigma to restrict users.
What a shame that its backfired on Sigma then!....M42, M645, P6, PK, and Nikon,..and lets not forget those modded Canon EOS lenses!...The list of lenses usable on the SA mount grows and grows!

Regards

DSG

--
http://sigmasd10.fotopic.net/
 
The SA mount doens't offer users any advantage over any other
modern mount
Oh, I think think you will find it does...I'm sure you will recall
that the SA mount is almost a clone of the EOS mount, only smaller
in diameter so if the EOS mount has adavantages over other camera
mounts then I'm sure you will agree, the SA mount must also have at
least some of those advantages over other mounts.
The SA mount is neater and simpler than Nikon, OM, PK and MD mounts
and apart from the size adavantage of the EOS mount I dont really
see any other adavantages of the EOS mount over the SA mount.
, it's a tool for Sigma to restrict users.
What a shame that its backfired on Sigma then!
Not really. The average Sigma user dones't care that much about older manual focus lenses, nor about modifying Canon lenses. When they see a Sigma DSLR that only takes Sigma AF lenses on the shelf next to a Canon or Nikon that take the origional manufacturer's lens lines, as well as the entire line of Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina lenses...
....M42, M645, P6,
PK, and Nikon,..and lets not forget those modded Canon EOS
lenses!...The list of lenses usable on the SA mount grows and grows!
It's not that great a list. You can't count PK, the registration distance is off and you need to physically modify lenses.

645 and P6 adapters exist for other systems. I've used an off-the-shelf Pentax medium format adapter to put Bryce's Pentax 600mm f4 on my Nikons. You can also buy Pentacon 6, Bronica, and Blad adapters off the shelf for Nikon.

The Nikon adapter for Sigma requires a short training video ;) and has a laundry list of incompatible lenses that exclude all my favorites, while a Nikon adapter for Canon just bayonettes onto the lens, then onto the camera, as does the Nikon adapter for 4/3 (more on that in a moment).

We used to refer to Canon as "the universal receptical" because you could get so many adapters for it, 6 different 35mm systems (Nikon F, Leica R and Viseoflex, Contax/Yashica (for Zeiss lenses on the cheap), M42, Olympus OM) as well as at least four medium format systems (Blad, Bronica 645 and 6x7, Mamiya, and Pentax). Plus any other medium format adapter that you could get for any one of the 6 35mm systems I mentioned earlier, plus anything you could get for T mount.

Have you seen the list for 4/3? It's the new "universal receptical", you can get ten different off-the-shelf adapters: Nikon F, Pentax K, M42, Olympus OM, Leica R, Contax/Yashica, Minolta MC/MD, Rollei SL, Exakta, Topcon.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twentyone, eight, and two, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Fifteen and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and nine, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
The 4/3 mount has a wonderfully short registration distance, and
you can make an adapter for just about any system. Mounts for
lenses like Sigma or Canon need a "smart" adapter with a processor
that can translate 4/3 protocol to Canon protocol, but Sigma has
knowledge of both protocols, so such an adapter should be child's
play to them.
I'm surprised some smart EE hasn't done this in a basement workshop somewhere. EF-> E series would be very useful, especially for telephoto lenses and fast primes that are either significantly less expensive than Oly's or don't exist in the Oly mount.
 
The 4/3 mount has a wonderfully short registration distance, and you can make an adapter for just about any system. Mounts for lenses like Sigma ... need a "smart" adapter with a processor

that can translate 4/3 protocol ... but Sigma has knowledge of [the protocols] so such an adapter should be child's play to them.
For these reasons, I have wondered for a while why Sigma does not make an adaptor to allow use of their SA lenses on 4/3 bodies. Maybe they prefer to sell whole new lenses in 4/3 mount; maybe Olympus sets rules of entry to the 4/3 club which do not allow it?

Such a device would certainly appeal to some super-telephoto fans, matching Sigma's relatively affordable long focal lengths to 4/3's high sensor resolution (if lens resolution is adequate.)
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top