Facts vs Opinions. I am confused ...

Stan wrote:
lots of thoughtful stuff....snipped,,,,

Stanwick said:

Is the explanation merely that the fundamentals of theistic
religions simply make no sense and cannot be explained by logic or
reason? Please fill me in (figuratively, not literally - I can
appreciate that some of you may wish to bury me alive for
questioning your beliefs).

Click to expand...

Not at all. I'm questioning my own beliefs, precisely because of all the things you mention in your post. Religion, whether it's the "interpretation" of it or not, seems to be the cause of horrible tragedies throughout history. And really, anyone with half a brain MUST question these things. K.

Stanwick said:

Aguru said:

Consider this scenario:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.
People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...

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Mike M said:

Jim K:

The Bible is less concerned with proof for the existence of God,
and is better seen as a way to show one how to walk with God and
Jesus (if you're into the NT).

I know your question wasn't directed at me, but I'll provide my
thoughts, for what it's worth. I think one can provide very
elegant proofs for and against the existence of God. Learned men
and women have fought over this for centuries. Aquinas does as
good of a job as any modern-day agnostics could ever even try with
this question. The difficult answer (for some) is no, you cannot
prove the existence of God through logic. Though I've read many,
many bright authors that have given their best shot.

I read a fascinating book while in college from a Professor there
named Dr. Post, that used symbolic logic to try to develop a theory
of God's existence. Before you laugh at such an attempt, the guy
won 2 Putnam exams during his undergraduate years in Mathematics.
For those of you that have taken this test, you'll know that
winning one of these things virtually guarantees you a
professorship at the university of your choice. To win 2 is almost
unheard of. Absolutely brilliant reading, but ultimately just
mental masturbation.

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I'm sorry, but I do not view the bible as a creditable document. I've studied religion and the way the bible was sown together. Same with the NT. At best it makes intersting fiction reading. I do not need the bible to affirm my faith. Nor do I need to prove the existance of god or prove god does not exist. My interests are more on the lines of what religion is and how it came to be. I am approaching this thread in a objective manor. I realize that for many the bible is thier main arrtiery of their faith. I feel sorry for them. They base their faith on stories invented by man.

JK

KCTrio said:

Jim K said:

Brent said:

Ger Bee said:

I cannot consider this scenario as MAN invented god in the first
instance.
FACT.

Click to expand...

Oops, sorry Ger Bee, no can do. That is an opinion and I'm sure you
know that.
This infinitely complex universe evolved from nothing... THAT's an
opinion.
FACT.
)

Click to expand...

Brent, judging from your reply here I take it to mean that you
would also agree that we can neither prove of disprove the
existance of god. Correct?

JK

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Stan said:

Since some of you have felt that religion continues to be an
appropriate topic on this forum, I have an inquiry for you. I have
always wondered about the logic of religions and hopefully some of
you can provide me with intelligent, well-reasoned responses to
this post.

I think we can all agree on the following four points:

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I don't think so.

Stanwick said:

1) All monotheistic religions portray God as a good, kind and
benevolent entity, free from vice and sin.

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not exactly so. some view god as unviewable, unkowable. Any human attributes, feelings, or ideas all fall short of what god is. God is beyond all of this, and yet part of allthis.

Stanwick said:

2) All monotheistic religions portray God as an all-powerful being.

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Not all. I sure don't. I reject any human attributes to god. I believe god is beyond this. God is not a being. To believe gos is would be to restrict gods full greatness. As for all powerful, yes, because god is all and more. But god is much more then this. Beyond good and evil, beyond sex, neither male nor female, beyond total understanding. Our very finite brains could never come close to undertanding the Infinite. God transends knowledge and ideas. God is NOT a being.

Stanwick said:

3) All monotheistic religions require their followers to worship God.

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not all believe this either. I don't believe god wants or needs our worship. Again, god is beyond all human attributes. Worship is one of the most primitive attributes known.

Stanwick said:

4) For millenia, hundreds of millions of innocent people,
particularly children, have suffered from starvation, disease,
physical abuse, sexual abuse, genocide, etc....

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The only people that can be truly considered "innocent" are children.

Stanwick said:

Given those four facts, please reconcile the following:

A) How can God be a truly a good deity if he/she has the power to
stop the tragedies mentioned in No. 4 above, yet allows such
horrible suffering to continue? The standard "God works in
mysterious ways" non-explanation is altogether insuffient to
address this question, as is "He will make amends in heaven."

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Again, god is not a diety or good or bad, but beyond all that. You think in a very finite way, and attempt to anwser this through a very Infinte way.

I don't blame you, you've been groomed to think this way by all of gods little apes. The supersticious. The religious.

Stanwick said:

B) How can God be a truly all-powerful deity if he/she is a
genuinely good being, but allows such horrible suffering to
continue?

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Again you miss the big picture. God is NOT a diety, or being, male or female, white or black, good or evil. God is all of that and beyond. Why is there suffering? Its beyond our scope to understand at this time. There are some more obvious reasons as to why. We are still evolving in to something greater.

Stanwick said:

C) How can God be a good (i.e. caring, benevolent and free from
sins or vices) entity if he/she demands that people worship
him/her? Isn't demanding adolation the clearest possible sign of
the vices of vanity and extreme egotism? Don't we usually
characterize people who crave and demand this sort of attenion as
egotists, dictators, self-centered and pathetic? Shouldn't we
expect even higher standards from our deities than we do from our
fellow human beings?

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I suppose if what religion teaches was correct, your question and assumption would be correct. But god is NOT anything like what religion teaches. If we being evil can forgive our children who do wrong, how much better can god better? Yet we are taught that if we are evil and or sin in our brief period of life, god will punish us for eternity. Don't fall for religions many absurdities! What appears to be so important at this moment, becomes a microscopic speckle in the great realm of everything past, present, and future in our universe.

Stanwick said:

Is the explanation merely that the fundamentals of theistic
religions simply make no sense and cannot be explained by logic or
reason? Please fill me in (figuratively, not literally - I can
appreciate that some of you may wish to bury me alive for
questioning your beliefs).

Click to expand...

I agree, if you go by the fundamental (BS) of religion, none of this makes any sense at all, and suddenly atheism seems to be the way to go! But I don't prescribe to religion, it means verry little to me. I find religion mostly offensive, and primitative.

But there is a plan, a scheme, a path, a reason, a god, hope, and love. Its so beyond religion though! We are no closer to god then a monkey in a zoo.

Jim K
Gods #1 Ape

Stanwick said:

Aguru said:

Consider this scenario:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.
People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...

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Oops! This is a digital photography web site after all.

Trent

Jim K said:

Trent Mulkern said:

I cannot refute your points except to say much of the Bibble is
parable/stories designed to teach a lesson. Excavations in the last
century have done much to equate history with the Bibble - at least
enough for those of faith.

Almost all documents good and bad have been written by man or men
of inspiration. That doesn't make them necessarily incapable of
influencing people to good or bad. If God dictated the Bibble to
man or influenced him to write the Bibble is of little consequence
to me and does not make it less in my mind. The inconsistencies of
the Bibble don't bother me as much as it does others I guess. Most
of these posts are folks looking at the same facts and coming to
different conclusions

Im afraid we must agree to disagree.

Trent

Click to expand...

I have no problem with Bibble. I like it better then Q-Image. But I
thought we were talking about the bible? I have no problem with
agreeing to disagree, except for Bibble, your wrong I'm right ; )

JK

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Can't you just feel the love of God. Some poor soul struggles with his existance but is finally overwhelmed and takes his own life. Perhgaps a terminal disease or a mental illness. Now his God damns him to eternal hell. Some beings just enjoy kicking you while your down.

John

koo22 said:

Aguru said:

Consider this scenario:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.
People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Aguru said:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.

Click to expand...

Actually, aguru, that is an opinion, (which may or may not be shared by many people). It would be a fact for you, if you were there, witnessed it and God told you his motives.

Aguru49305 said:

People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

Click to expand...

See above.

Aguru49305 said:

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...

If God by definitions is, "That than which nothing greater can be concieved to exist" ... the answer to your questions are continguent on the person asking.

Warmest Regards
Karl

Jim K said:

Brent said:

Ger Bee said:

I cannot consider this scenario as MAN invented god in the first
instance.
FACT.

Click to expand...

Oops, sorry Ger Bee, no can do. That is an opinion and I'm sure you
know that.
This infinitely complex universe evolved from nothing... THAT's an
opinion.
FACT.
)

Click to expand...

Brent, judging from your reply here I take it to mean that you
would also agree that we can neither prove of disprove the
existance of god. Correct?

JK

Click to expand...

In a nutshell, yes, you are correct. No one can "prove" the existence of God.

Christianity is first faith-based. The Bible says without "faith" it is impossible to please God.
However, that's besides the point.

My point is, anyone who says something is FACT (the post I was originally commenting about) when clearly it is opinion, usually say so because of another agenda. ie: they don't like religion, Christians, or do not want to be held accountable to a higher standard etc...

cut

Jim K53618 said:

Jim K53618 said:

2) All monotheistic religions portray God as an all-powerful being.

Click to expand...

Not all. I sure don't. I reject any human attributes to god. I
believe god is beyond this. God is not a being. To believe gos is
would be to restrict gods full greatness. As for all powerful, yes,
because god is all and more. But god is much more then this. Beyond
good and evil, beyond sex, neither male nor female, beyond total
understanding. Our very finite brains could never come close to
undertanding the Infinite. God transends knowledge and ideas. God
is NOT a being.

Click to expand...

God need not have been necessarily very powerful to achieve the results we see around us today. Only a little kick start was needed and the universe is somewhat self regulating today - there is no evidence of any godlike creature, spirit or being actually interfering to preserve any species or plant from destruction - which is all the universe is about - total destruction and re-cycling.

Jim K53618 said:

cut...

The only people that can be truly considered "innocent" are children.

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It is not correct to consider children innocent, ignorant maybe but innocent is not something that can be ascribed to them. Children are very, very clever – it is argued that man will never be as intelligent as a child or as receptive (whilst still remaining ignorant). In religion many subscribe to the “Baptism” or the decadence of a “holy spirit” to complete or fulfil the child – my word of it is possession. I believe that we all live in a spirit world and at birth we hunt down and possess newborn life. After a while we become skilful at this and can “follow generations”.

Other religions believe in re-incarnation and the existence of a being in animals of the lower order. I believe we merely incorrectly identify a man-child, which we are looking for and possess new-born life where we find it after our first creation – have not thought out where that is yet. Thus, in our learning curve we may possess the bodies of several animals before we reach the understanding of possessing only humans and other species of that order. I also believe we are on a journey to somewhere else. My own personal evidence for this is the appalling planet we occupy as a species of the “human race” – just design a human body and place it in the worst possible environment whereby merely living with background (natural radiation) reduces life expectancy by a third if not more – we are still looking for “home” maybe that’s the heaven that nearly all religions have?

Jim K53618 said:

Jim K53618 said:

Given those four facts, please reconcile the following:cut

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The original question (quoted below) that I posted is intended to be a logical problem rather than a theological one. The problem statement contains given data that should be accepted as the premise for deriving conclusions. I am sorry if my original post is not clear on these points.

Here are my views on the questions (Please consider just the logic, not theological issues):

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?

God's mission is to save the world. He failed because people's opinions are not favorable to his cause. Thus, from his viewpoint, people's opinions are most crucial for his objective.

2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?

Poeple believed that he was a quack. Thus, to the people, that's a fact, and, therefore, God's assertion (that he was God) was just an opinion.

3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?

An ousider is someone not in the previous two parties (e.g. a Martian). Being objective, the ousider recognises that God was God, and that people's belief was just an opinion. The outsider would also acknowledges that God's failure stems from the negative opinions of the people. Thus, people's opinions are more important for God's objective.

Conclusions:

Looking at this problem with a totally detached, objective manner, devoid of any bias and emotions, we still see:

(a) There are different viewpoints which are equally valid. To many people, "facts" are "what they believe in".

(b) Both facts and opinions are important. Sometimes, opinions are even more crucial in achieving the objectives. Shaping opinions become critical.

Once realizing these, one should be more tolerant of other's viewpoints, and that dispute on facts vs opinions is counterproductive since emotions, backgrounds, culture, bias would muddy the water tremendously. It's better to look for common objectives and work towards them.

Aguru said:

Consider this scenario:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.
People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...

Aguru wrote:

I liked the first one better -- now we have an old argument in a different guise.

It is fine and dandy to say, believe or have facts - but when someone drive a planeload of passengers into a packed building - deliberately - then one has no choice - one is robbed of the freedom to believe, have faith and trust.

Period. Now on your thesis’s God has done great work for both sides by sending many souls to heaven and delivering a righteous blow from another.

Well done.

So why am I still fuming with anger and frustration?

Aguru said:

The original question (quoted below) that I posted is intended to
be a logical problem rather than a theological one. The problem
statement contains given data that should be accepted as the
premise for deriving conclusions. I am sorry if my original post is
not clear on these points.

Here are my views on the questions (Please consider just the logic,
not theological issues):

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?

God's mission is to save the world. He failed because people's
opinions are not favorable to his cause. Thus, from his viewpoint,
people's opinions are most crucial for his objective.

Click to expand...

Here is where I have to stop. He fail to even understand the simply fact that god is nothing like religion teaches.

Save the world??? From what??? From God??? This is all of gods doing.

To begin with such a ridiculous, its no wonder you go on with even greater garbage! The rest of your post is so ridiculous that I won't even respnd any further. See my first response, or visit a monkey at the zoo, it may be able to teach you more about god then religion.

JK

Aguru49305 said:

2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?

Poeple believed that he was a quack. Thus, to the people, that's a
fact, and, therefore, God's assertion (that he was God) was just an
opinion.

3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

An ousider is someone not in the previous two parties (e.g. a
Martian). Being objective, the ousider recognises that God was God,
and that people's belief was just an opinion. The outsider would
also acknowledges that God's failure stems from the negative
opinions of the people. Thus, people's opinions are more important
for God's objective.

Conclusions:

Looking at this problem with a totally detached, objective manner,
devoid of any bias and emotions, we still see:

(a) There are different viewpoints which are equally valid. To many
people, "facts" are "what they believe in".

(b) Both facts and opinions are important. Sometimes, opinions are
even more crucial in achieving the objectives. Shaping opinions
become critical.

Once realizing these, one should be more tolerant of other's
viewpoints, and that dispute on facts vs opinions is
counterproductive since emotions, backgrounds, culture, bias would
muddy the water tremendously. It's better to look for common
objectives and work towards them.

Aguru said:

Consider this scenario:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.
People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jim: I don't expect everyone to understand or to appreciate the points made. In fact, the term "God" could be replaced by anybody or any government, and the argument still stands. Since your objections are related to the premise, they are irrelevant to the issue.

Jim K said:

Here is where I have to stop. He fail to even understand the
simply fact that god is nothing like religion teaches.

Save the world??? From what??? From God??? This is all of gods doing.
To begin with such a ridiculous, its no wonder you go on with even
greater garbage! The rest of your post is so ridiculous that I
won't even respnd any further. See my first response, or visit a
monkey at the zoo, it may be able to teach you more about god then
religion.

JK

Click to expand...

Aguru said:

Jim: I don't expect everyone to understand or to appreciate the
points made. In fact, the term "God" could be replaced by anybody
or any government, and the argument still stands. Since your
objections are related to the premise, they are irrelevant to the
issue.

Click to expand...

This makes no sense at all. But for sake of arguement I replaced the word god with Elvis. I still could make no sense from it.

JK

Aguru49305 said:

Jim K said:

Here is where I have to stop. He fail to even understand the
simply fact that god is nothing like religion teaches.

Save the world??? From what??? From God??? This is all of gods doing.
To begin with such a ridiculous, its no wonder you go on with even
greater garbage! The rest of your post is so ridiculous that I
won't even respnd any further. See my first response, or visit a
monkey at the zoo, it may be able to teach you more about god then
religion.

JK

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

If you know God is existing (or appeared), then you don't believe in God.

Belief implies uncertainty.

Welcome to the non-believers world!

Q.

Not quite true. Belief implies certainity, faith implies uncertainity.

Trent

Q. said:

If you know God is existing (or appeared), then you don't believe
in God.

Belief implies uncertainty.

Welcome to the non-believers world!

Q.

Click to expand...

There are no facts - except/accept this fact, of course. So, all is opinion - that's a fact... Basically, no one knows anything. And anyone who claims to is a liar.

The human state is to know nothing. I have a 'theory' we live time and time again. Not in the God sense. This life is but an entertainment, a diversion from our other existence. Now, this diversion would not work if we knew about the other life. So we elect to be ignorant.

Sadly I do not have this in bible form so I have no followers. However, I might publish this as a book and start a new religion. I'll have to think of a snappy name - like ?????. Can't wait for all those ????? having the inner experiences and believing in my new religion. We can build churches to ????? and 'pray on pay day'. I can become ??? All based on the fact of the ????? book

Coffee. Some people kill to feed their addictions.

You wrote "Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery. That's a fact" ...

No. That's your opinion.

Aguru said:

Consider this scenario:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.
People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...

Paul: That's a GIVEN data in the problem. It's part of the premise. All that's required in the problem statement or premise is that there is no logical inconsistency.

OK. I give up. Sorry for wasting everybody's time.

Paul said:

You wrote "Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their
misery. That's a fact" ...

No. That's your opinion.

Click to expand...

Maybe Jesus can help us all.

http://www.jesus.com/

-Mike.

Aguru said:

Consider this scenario:

God wanted to save the world, so he appeared and told people that
he is GOD. That's a fact.
People smirked at him and said "You are a quack". That's an opinion.
Finally, God gave up and left, leaving people in their misery.
That's a fact.

The questions:

1. From God's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or opinions?
2. From the people's viewpoint, what's fact and what's opinion?
3. From an outsider's viewpoint, what's more important: facts or
opinions?

Click to expand...