Is this the normal amount of noise at ISO800? (example pic)

Yes, ISO200 at 20mm, according to EXIF. Which makes the problem
even worse. I'm not sure how to avoid blown highlights and noise at
the same time. I was told to err on the side of under exposure. Do
you think this is wrong?
People who don't know anything tell others that all the time. With digital you should expose to the RIGHT but avoid clipping highlights for maximum quality. When I shoot even dark scenes I try to expose so there is no pure black. When I convert it in Raw the black is assigned and noise is minimized.
This picture was a stop, maybe a stop and a half underexposed.
Thats too much. In a pinch you can have a useable good picture but if you're shooting landscapes then you have time to expose exactly.

--
My cat's breath smells like cat food
 
Looks about right to me if you were shooting JPG. If you really want to get rid of the noise, shoot in RAW and convert with Adobe Camera RAW and use their noise reduction tools in RAW.

I don't really see why you are concerned though, my 20D performs like no other when we're talking about noise (and so does your's). I have two Sony cameras that produce noise and sharpness on this level of quality at ISO 100! There really is nothing wrong with your image, but if you must get better quality, RAW, RAW, RAW.
--
http://usedtoit03.deviantart.com/gallery
 
Check out the whole image here:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=57967821&size=o

I notice that thhe noise is mainly noticable in the sky. I was
shooting with the 20D + 17-40 f4L in Large, fine JPG mode at ISO800
f8 40mm.
This "noise" is mainly posterization; IOW, you should have shot this at a higher ISO and/or with a wider aperture or longer shutter speed. The image is not particularly sharp, so I am guessing that your shutter speed was already compromised.

Avoiding high ISO can ruin an image just as well as using high ISO.

--
John
 
Yes, ISO200 at 20mm, according to EXIF. Which makes the problem
even worse. I'm not sure how to avoid blown highlights and noise at
the same time. I was told to err on the side of under exposure. Do
you think this is wrong?
Definitely. The scene was already low-contrast; you should NEVER under-expose a low-contrast scene. You should only use negative exposure compensation in auto-exposure modes when the scene contains small areas that are much brighter than the rest of the scene. I would have taken this shot with +1.33 EC, and as high an ISO as necessary to prevent using undesired apertures and excessively long shutter speeds.
This picture was a stop, maybe a stop and a half underexposed.
Stop doing that. Raising the ISO gives less noise/posterization than under-exposing at a lower ISO, even if the Av and Tv are the same.

--
John
 
Looking at a digital photo at 100% (all pixels shown as actual
size) will always give you inferiour looking shots. Resize the
image (on screen) to something more realistic, like 8"x10" and the
noise will disapear. By that, I mean, open you image, and display
it at 33% or so.
That depends on the program. If the program uses the Nearest Neighbor algorithm to reduce display resolution (and most do), the noise will look worse, downsized, as the nosie can then be at the nyquist frequency, which is impossible in a full-res, demosaiced image.
That's what it will look like printed.
You can't possibly show what an image will look like, printed, on the screen. The screen has no resolution compared to a printer.

--
John
 
er am I wrong in thinking this is acceptable?
When you consider the fact that this image would have had much less noise and posterization if it had been shot at ISO 1600 with +1.5 EC, instead of ISO 200 with -1.5 EC, yes, it is unacceptable, because it was avoidable.

Say to yourself 100 times:

ISO does not equal noise! Low sensor exposure equals noise, and too low of an ISO makes it even noisier!

Until people understand this fact, they will continue to ruin pictures in low light by avoiding high ISOs. They also need to under-stand that low-contrast images need positive exposure compensation for maximum quality.

--
John
 
I would say that it is okay for ISO800.... but at ISO200 I wouldn't
be too happy. I don't shoot too many underexposed shots purposely,
so maybe I'm wrong. I know if I mess up a shot and underexpose by
accident, then try to increase my levels/brightness, I will get
what has been posted here (even at ISO200).
With the same absolute exposure (f-stop and shutter speed), the lower ISO is always going to have the worst image quality. That should be expected, if you understand how digital cameras work.

Any shot taken at a low ISO with the histogram to the left is a ruined shot.

--
John
 
BTW, underexposure does not cause noise. However, dark areas of
any shot will have lower signal to noise ratio than bright areas.
Any time you adjust the brightness or exposure electronically,
you're just amplifying a low quality signal.
Well, it's more than that. S/N ratio is determined by absolute exposure (f-stop and shutter speed for a given scene), but you get additional noise by under-digitzing an image by using too low of an ISO for a given absolute exposure. If your histogram is to the left, then you have noise that is not in the S/N ratio of the sensor itself.

--
John
 
...but I choose to give digitaljosh here the benefit of the doubt.

For that shot, you have a very desirable noise profile, even for ISO200 I think it's decent performance for the 20D.

I think the advice you received about underexposing is bad advice. To understand exposure, you really need to look at it on a shot-by-shot basis. For instance, if you're shooting saturated colors, it's better to slightly underexpose. This is because for saturated shots (say of flowers under soft light, like a cloudy day), it's easy to accidentally clip a color channel. Even though your luminance histogram shows that nothing is clipped, you could have totally blown your red channel, for instance, where there's no detail in that color and all the detail in the blown parts of the shot are coming from blue and green. That's bad.

On the other hand, in most shooting situations you'll want to expose to the right and push your histogram as far right as possible without clipping. This is because from pure white to 18% grey occupies half the "addressable space" in your image. In other words, if I underexpose a shot so that the brightest thing in the image is 18% grey, only half of the detail resolution of the camera is being used. In the bottom 1/5 of your histogram, there are only about 64 or so different levels of light captured in shadows. In the top 1/5, the 20D picks up about 2000 different levels of light. Obviously this means you get far more detail in highlights than in shadow. But then you have to contend with the potential clipping problem for the luminance as a whole, or clipping one or two channels where your subject contains tones far away from neutral grey.

So what I do is I expose to the right, pay close attention so you don't blow highlights, and post-process to the left unless I'm shooting saturated subjects. With saturated subjects, I would make sure I'm shooting in Adobe RGB (a wider color space--I always shoot in aRGB because I always want the option to print, as opposed to sRGB which should only be used for the web), and leave a little air on the high side of the histogram. Shooting saturated subjects with a 20D is a tricky proposition, though, because digital sensors still have a dynamic range approximately equivalent to most slide film, and to avoid clipping channels you have to sacrifice a precious little of the range you do have to work with. (Of course, so long as you don't clip any single channel, the idea is to push as far to the right as possible still--the problem is, since we don't get to see color histograms in the 20D, it's impossible to know whether you've clipped a channel until you load the image into PS and view the color histos.)

In any case, there's lots of tricks you can use in Photoshop to deal with noise. One of my favorite things to do is simply use a slight Gaussian blur of a 1-3 pixels only on the color. If you're using PS CS2, you do this by applying the filter, and then immediately after go to Edit, Fade..., and pick the "Luminosity" mode and fade the filter effect only on luminonisity back to 0%. This has the effect of switching into Lab color mode and applying the blur filter only to the color channels, but leaving luminosity alone. This eradicates color noise. With CS2, it's no longer necessary to ever switch an image into Lab mode because of the modes now available and the selective ability to fade.

There are more advanced things you can do as well...for instance, create a duplicate layer of the image, and then apply Smart Sharpening or Unsharp Masking. Make sure you apply too much. Then set the oversharped layer's blending mode to "Difference" and dial in the opacity. Then, Ctrl+A to select the entire image, Ctrl+Shift+C to copy merged, and paste the result into a new channel. At this point you can discard the difference layer. Ctrl+click on the new channel and you've got a selection (I can't remember if it's the selection you want or the inverse of the selection--basically you're trying to select noisy areas that should be smooth, so invert the selection or not based on what you see). Then apply some small amount of Gaussian blurring to the Luminosity channel by blurring the selection on the main image, then Edit, Fade..., pick the Color channel and fade to 0%.
 
Awsome write-up - what you say makes sense (although I'm curious as to why there are more details in highlights - is this a feature of the sensor?). I am running CS2 and will try some of those tricks today. Your post has been printed. :)
--
'There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.'
-Ansel Adams
 
I think I'm getting the picture - don't underexpose, not ever. Not even when the scene is dark - in that case, ramp up the exposure and post process.

--
'There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.'
-Ansel Adams
 
severoon,

very well put, and right to the point!

The OP should print this post and learn it by heart.

Emil
 
I think I'm getting the picture - don't underexpose, not ever. Not
even when the scene is dark - in that case, ramp up the exposure
and post process.
Well, you still have to balance between absolute exposure and shutter speed and aperture concerns. What is always true is that if you take a shot at a low ISO and it is under-exposed, you should have at least shot it at a higher ISO with the same f-stop and shutter speed.

First choice: low ISO exposed to the right

Second choice: high ISO exposed to the right

Third choice: low ISO exposed to the left

Last choice: high ISO exposed to the left.

You have to make the choice that allows you to have the shutter speed and the aperture that you need, but one thing is certain; the Second and the Third may have the same shutter speed and aperture, so the third choice is actually quite useless. It is only ranked above Last choice because Last choice is even worse (but sometimes unavoidable in low light).

--
John
 
So what I do is I expose to the right, pay close attention so you
don't blow highlights, and post-process to the left unless I'm
shooting saturated subjects. With saturated subjects, I would make
sure I'm shooting in Adobe RGB (a wider color space--I always shoot
in aRGB because I always want the option to print, as opposed to
sRGB which should only be used for the web), and leave a little air
on the high side of the histogram. Shooting saturated subjects with
a 20D is a tricky proposition, though, because digital sensors
still have a dynamic range approximately equivalent to most slide
film, and to avoid clipping channels you have to sacrifice a
precious little of the range you do have to work with. (Of course,
so long as you don't clip any single channel, the idea is to push
as far to the right as possible still--the problem is, since we
don't get to see color histograms in the 20D, it's impossible to
know whether you've clipped a channel until you load the image into
PS and view the color histos.)
The histogram doesn't show when a red flower clips in a JPEG, but the RAW data is actually about two stops lower than what it is showing in the JPEG. I've had severely clipped red flowers in the JPEG, with the RAW data still more than a stop away from being clipped. Under-exposing to preserve something like a red flower is unfortunate, because the whole image becomes noisier and more posterized. Concerns for saturated reds and blues are really for JPEGs more than RAW; The red or blue will only blow out in the RAW if the red or blue is a small areas against a dark background, IME.

--
John
 
So what I do is I expose to the right, pay close attention so you
don't blow highlights, and post-process to the left unless I'm
shooting saturated subjects. With saturated subjects, I would make
sure I'm shooting in Adobe RGB (a wider color space--I always shoot
in aRGB because I always want the option to print, as opposed to
sRGB which should only be used for the web), and leave a little air
on the high side of the histogram. Shooting saturated subjects with
a 20D is a tricky proposition, though, because digital sensors
still have a dynamic range approximately equivalent to most slide
film, and to avoid clipping channels you have to sacrifice a
precious little of the range you do have to work with. (Of course,
so long as you don't clip any single channel, the idea is to push
as far to the right as possible still--the problem is, since we
don't get to see color histograms in the 20D, it's impossible to
know whether you've clipped a channel until you load the image into
PS and view the color histos.)
The histogram doesn't show when a red flower clips in a JPEG, but
the RAW data is actually about two stops lower than what it is
showing in the JPEG. I've had severely clipped red flowers in the
JPEG, with the RAW data still more than a stop away from being
clipped. Under-exposing to preserve something like a red flower is
unfortunate, because the whole image becomes noisier and more
posterized. Concerns for saturated reds and blues are really for
JPEGs more than RAW; The red or blue will only blow out in the RAW
if the red or blue is a small areas against a dark background, IME.
I always wondered what good the Nikon RGB histograms were. Now I know. This would be handy for the Canon gear, too.

--
'There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.'
-Ansel Adams
 
See, this is what these forums are all about. You share what little knowledge you have, and you get a reply with the key to understanding something.

I only recently started shooting RAW. I have yet to shoot saturated subject matter yet in RAW, but even in the normal shooting I've been doing I've noticed my exposures coming out a little off, even after RAW adjustment things seem noisier, overall just lesser quality in certain respects than I'm used to with JPG. I did not realize that shooting RAW played with all the exposure knowledge I'd built up on my 20D. I'd thought that I had to just accept this as the trade-off for the aspects that came out far superior.

So thank you. You've saved me a lot of trouble in at least a couple of future shoots until I figured it out. Now I can do some test shooting and bracketing saturated subjects and figure out what the heck's been going on...work out how to have my cake and eat it too. :-)
 
Awsome write-up - what you say makes sense (although I'm curious as
to why there are more details in highlights - is this a feature of
the sensor?).
(This is a half-explanation because I'm not qualified to fully explain anything about which I'm going to speak. :-) )

It's not a feature of the sensor so much as it is a feature of physics, or more to the point the human eye. Our eye has two measurements of dynamic range, one relevant to the dynamic range we see every instant and one relevant to the dynamic range over which our eyes can see in different situations.

If you're in a police lineup (hopefully as a paid volunteer) you experience the first kind--the bright lights have to be so many times brighter than the one-way mirror so you can't see the victim through it. This exploits the instantaneous limit of the eye's dynamic range, which is based on the range of your retina.

On the other hand, when you're on a sunny beach, the amount of light bouncing around is something like 12 or 15 orders of magnitude (that's 10^12 to 10^15--I don't remember exactly) brighter than when you're stumbling around your house at night trying to avoid the coffee table. In this case, your eyes have a photosensitive chemical in them that can take the form of two different configurations (called isomers, if you remember your high school chemistry). One isomer of this compound is activated by the presence of light and absorbs light. The other is the stable configuration in the absence of light, and lets light pass. So, in the dark, light passes through your eye to your retina where it is detected mostly by your rods, which is why you don't see much color in a dark situation. When you go outside into full sun, you'll note that your eyes water and often hurt temporarily until they adjust, this is because the light passing through your eye is too great and overstimulates the nerves in your retina to the point of pain. After 2 or 3 minutes, this reversible photosensitive reaction takes over and the light-absorbing isomer of this chemical is formed, and you can see just fine with no pain.

This is a lot of background that basically adds up to one thing: your eyes are logarithmic devices, not linear. If they were linear, there would be no nerve that could possibly handle the range of stimulation that would occur. Even when discussing the instantaneous dynamic range of the eye, it's logarithmically based because your pupil is an aperture and adjusts to allow less or more light by stops (halving or doubling, again not linearly). The only way any device, cameras or eyes, can deal with the vast range of brightnesses out there, is to behave logarithmically.

So if you think about what this means for your camera's sensor, to depict scenes as our eyes see them it has to capture far more detail in the brightest stop of a scene than in the darkest stop. So, half of the available light levels are devoted to this brightest stop, and this is as it should be. It's not a limitation to be overcome--rather, it was designed into the way cameras work in order to depict scenes accurately (meaning, as we see them).

By the way, I should mention that what I've described above is purely constrained to the eye and the eye alone, and has not attempted to address the impact that the brain has on vision. The brain, believe it or not, mucks up the discussion totally, because it adds a lot of processing to the mix that makes a lot of what I said above seem wrong.

For example, you'd be surprised to realize the physical instantaneous dynamic range of the human eye is actually not that great--the 5.5 stops we get from our digital sensors are probably greater. Yet, as photographers it always seems like our cameras never capture enough range to properly depict a scene.

This is because we have an unconscious, persistent memory within the visual cortex. As our pupil runs over an image and relaxes and constricts, it quickly samples a greater dynamic range than the eye is capable of at any one moment. Our brain takes all these samples and merges them together, much like the High Dynamic Range filter in PS CS2. What our eyes see and what we "actually" see are surprisingly very different.
 

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