Israel/Palestinian problem explained.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Oren
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Sure, sure, and this is the very reason why there are so many more
dead on one side than the other (go figure the proportion). Is that
what is called "showing restraint"?
your logic is erroneous at best. during world war ii, the ratio of american to japanese casualties was about 1 to 100 or 300 in some instances. sadly, it was even 0 to 100,000 and more in two instances. but does that show anything? were the japanese the aggrieved party simply because of the figures, or that the japanese showed restraint in the face of american attacks? casualties have no bearing as to who is right or wrong. what you are driving at is stupidity. i may hold my tongue and temper at the taunts of a bully, but if he comes at me with murder in his eyes, i will use any and every means at my disposal to defend myself. i shall not stand and and let him hit me with a baseball bat just to show you i exercise restraint.
 
Marcel, follow the links that i posted, you might notice, that at the time of this friendship, many people died. Peace, unfortunately, was not getting anywhere. Actually, the fact that it did not progress anywhere was the reason, why despite the enormous feeling of guilt that right-wing israelies felt after Rabin's assasination, right-wing Benjamin Netaniyahu won the elections. As for friends with arafat, i recall her saying that she is not his friend, his hands are too bloody even for libertarian like herself. She talked to him many times in the hope that a change will come to him, to no avail i might add. Israely left had hope for a long timem that Arafat had changed and he will make a genuine strive for peace. They hoped that once a generous enough offer will be made, he will take it and we will live happily ever after. Unfortunately, we all know what happened in Camp-David.

Also, your portraying of Leah Rabin, as a single standing out person in Israely public is simply naive (if unintentional) or misleading (if otherwise).

Lea & Itzhak Rabin belonged to the biggest party in Israely politics. Their party is the largest party today in Israely parliament and their policy is not that different from the policy we see today - "Talk when peace is possible, fight the terror whenever possible".
Replace ****** with jew, and think yourself.
 
Omaha, thank you for your support.
Replace ****** with jew, and think yourself.

BTW, do you count the suicide bombers in the toll of dead
palestinians,
or the terrorists that got shot while performing the acts of terror?

In my other posts i have many times said that i am sad when anyone
dies, be it innocent palestinian or israely, unlike you, i might
add.

BTW, the fact that many more algerians were killed than french back
when france had problems there, probably proves that french were
murderous terrorists, and algerians peacefull civilians.

You are so one-sided that it makes me sick.

As for me, i do think, and unfortunately, i have to agree with what
Golda-Meir had to say many years ago - "We will have peace with
palestinians when they love their children more than they hate us."
I also have to add my own thought to this - this will probably
happen when palestinians will start having democracy, freedom of
speech and freedom of press. Maybe then, they will start loving
their children more than hate us.

It seems that you are an antisemite in the disguise of libertarian,
if you are an libertarian, then talk about establishing democracies
and basic human rights in arab countries. Trust me, this will make
the world a much better place than asking for more dead Jews.

Happy Rosh Hashana, Happy new 5762 year.
i share your hopes in your new year.
the beauty of freedom is that you can express your thoughts without
fear of official reprisal. fortunately or no, this freedom also
came us the choice to think for our own, though we may arrive at
very different conclusions.
right now, the voice of those who apparently despise israel speaks
louder, but that does not mean that you are alone. maybe the next
message we would read here is that there was no holocaust, or that
the jews voluntarily had themselves gassed in the hopes that in the
end of the war, the survivors will be given a state of their own in
sympathy for their suffering. buth such is the nature of freedom.
i stand with you, not blindly as some may claim, but because i
believe that this is the right thing to do. that is why the leaders
of the united states stood with you, becasue they believe that they
were doing the right thing, and not for any political or economic
gain. stand firm and courageous, because there will always be
people who love israel, no matter how many others seek its
destruction.
 
Has Arafat renounced that part of the PLO charter that requires the extinction of Israel?Has he renounced terrorism (Both to the western media and the arab media)? Has he assisted in anyway in the aprehension of PLO terrorists?

I'm sorry, I don't believe Arafat desires a peace that allows for the survival of Israel. All of his actions (or inactions) indicate otherwise, despite his proclamations at peace conferences and to the media. Some people desire an end to the violence so intensely, they grasp at straws.

Like all cowardly terrorists, the PLO intensionally target innocents and then hide behind human shields of their OWN People so that if those innocents are killed in a retaliatory strike, they can then exploit the deaths of their own people and parade their bodies through the streets.

Terrorists and their leaders have no more regard for human life on their own side as they do of their enemies. Their hatred and it's blood lust has an insatiable appetite, feeds on itself, and if they were ever successful in exterminating the Israelis, this carefully nurtured insanity would seek a new group of people or country to hate.

This is not a crazed individual, but a crazed movement spreading evil by design. Unless and until all the parties turn away from hatred and determine in their own minds, and advocate the notion that all people, regardless of religion, color, culture, whatever, have an equal value and an equal right to exist and coexist....there will be no peace, at best only a temporary suspension of hostilities.
FJBrad
 
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.
I am neither Jew nor Arab either.

It seems that if you look the first part of the 20th century, Palestine was home to one group of people. If you look at the middle ages, Palestine was home to another group of people. If you look at other times in history, Palestine was controlled by one outside power or another. However, if you look at the entire history of the region and the number of years that a specific people has owned it, the only conclusion you can draw is that Palestine belongs to the Jews. They controlled that area for many hundreds of years, not counting the few times they were forcibly uprooted and removed by outside nations before returning again to possess it. Palestine has been their homeland for much longer than any one group can claim for themselves. They're back again as the result of monumental changes to the world that occured in WWII. I know this is an oversimplistic question, but why not let them have it in peace?

If the "Palestinian" people can't live in peace among them, then why don't their neighboring Arab nations welcome them into their countries? There never was a nation known as 'Palestine' which was controlled by indiginous "Palestinian" people. Why such a bloody conflict over having one now?
 
Bryan, smb - some history for you:

The term “Palestine” is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained. Three years later, in conformity with Roman custom, Jerusalem was “plowed up with a yoke of oxen” and renamed Aelia Capitolina. Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word “Filastin” is derived from this Latin name.
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.
I am neither Jew nor Arab either.

It seems that if you look the first part of the 20th century,
Palestine was home to one group of people. If you look at the
middle ages, Palestine was home to another group of people. If you
look at other times in history, Palestine was controlled by one
outside power or another. However, if you look at the entire
history of the region and the number of years that a specific
people has owned it, the only conclusion you can draw is that
Palestine belongs to the Jews. They controlled that area for many
hundreds of years, not counting the few times they were forcibly
uprooted and removed by outside nations before returning again to
possess it. Palestine has been their homeland for much longer than
any one group can claim for themselves. They're back again as the
result of monumental changes to the world that occured in WWII. I
know this is an oversimplistic question, but why not let them have
it in peace?

If the "Palestinian" people can't live in peace among them, then
why don't their neighboring Arab nations welcome them into their
countries? There never was a nation known as 'Palestine' which was
controlled by indiginous "Palestinian" people. Why such a bloody
conflict over having one now?
 
Also, some controversial, but not without measure of truth, article by Arab-American Journalist - http://www.bagel-bakery-slicer-items.com/truth.htm

I will put it here in it's full entity, mostly, i agree with the last paragraph:

From: WorldNetDaily Wednesday, Oct. 11, 2000 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/20001011_xcbtl_myths_brmi.shtml
Myths of the Middle East
by Joseph Farah

© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount.

Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause.

After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began. And for what?

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right?

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing. Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem." That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough. What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem.

Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct.

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."

Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.

So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.
The term “Palestine” is believed to be derived from the
Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.,
settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel
and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., the Romans crushed
the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem
and Judea were regained. Three years later, in conformity with
Roman custom, Jerusalem was “plowed up with a yoke of
oxen” and renamed Aelia Capitolina. Judea (the southern
portion of what is now called the West Bank) was renamed Palaestina
in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of
Israel. The Arabic word “Filastin” is derived from this
Latin name.
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.
I am neither Jew nor Arab either.

It seems that if you look the first part of the 20th century,
Palestine was home to one group of people. If you look at the
middle ages, Palestine was home to another group of people. If you
look at other times in history, Palestine was controlled by one
outside power or another. However, if you look at the entire
history of the region and the number of years that a specific
people has owned it, the only conclusion you can draw is that
Palestine belongs to the Jews. They controlled that area for many
hundreds of years, not counting the few times they were forcibly
uprooted and removed by outside nations before returning again to
possess it. Palestine has been their homeland for much longer than
any one group can claim for themselves. They're back again as the
result of monumental changes to the world that occured in WWII. I
know this is an oversimplistic question, but why not let them have
it in peace?

If the "Palestinian" people can't live in peace among them, then
why don't their neighboring Arab nations welcome them into their
countries? There never was a nation known as 'Palestine' which was
controlled by indiginous "Palestinian" people. Why such a bloody
conflict over having one now?
 
Some will probably not like this too:

http://www.bagel-bakery-slicer-items.com/truth2.htm
I will put it here in it's full entity, mostly, i agree with the
last paragraph:

From: WorldNetDaily Wednesday, Oct. 11, 2000
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/20001011_xcbtl_myths_brmi.shtml
Myths of the Middle East
by Joseph Farah

© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by
disputes over the Temple Mount.

Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so."
But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of
the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising.
Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause.

After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been
killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began.
And for what?

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians
want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider
holy. Simple, right?

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the
Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells,
I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the
rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing. Isn't it interesting
that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious
movement for a Palestinian homeland?

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized
the West Bank and Old Jerusalem." That's true. In the Six-Day War,
Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't
capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them
from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these
Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after
Israel won the war.

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land.
The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans
committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and
declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the
Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was
derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the
Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult
to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia
Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous
entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian
crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after
World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the
land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct
Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine
governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable
from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese,
Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of
the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of
the landmass.

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is
ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed.
Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the
Israelis make, it will never be enough. What about Islam's holy
sites? There are none in Jerusalem.

Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this
brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just
not politically correct.

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the
Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy
sites."

Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It
mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless
times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no
historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.

So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam?
Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth
Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a
vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the
temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we
might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims
identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in
Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with
Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews
can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party
leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation
of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews.
Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know
what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like
for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the
holiest site in Judaism?

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I
don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if
there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only
lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by
overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with
illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and
peacekeeping a bad name.
The term “Palestine” is believed to be derived from the
Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.,
settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel
and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., the Romans crushed
the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem
and Judea were regained. Three years later, in conformity with
Roman custom, Jerusalem was “plowed up with a yoke of
oxen” and renamed Aelia Capitolina. Judea (the southern
portion of what is now called the West Bank) was renamed Palaestina
in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of
Israel. The Arabic word “Filastin” is derived from this
Latin name.
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.
I am neither Jew nor Arab either.

It seems that if you look the first part of the 20th century,
Palestine was home to one group of people. If you look at the
middle ages, Palestine was home to another group of people. If you
look at other times in history, Palestine was controlled by one
outside power or another. However, if you look at the entire
history of the region and the number of years that a specific
people has owned it, the only conclusion you can draw is that
Palestine belongs to the Jews. They controlled that area for many
hundreds of years, not counting the few times they were forcibly
uprooted and removed by outside nations before returning again to
possess it. Palestine has been their homeland for much longer than
any one group can claim for themselves. They're back again as the
result of monumental changes to the world that occured in WWII. I
know this is an oversimplistic question, but why not let them have
it in peace?

If the "Palestinian" people can't live in peace among them, then
why don't their neighboring Arab nations welcome them into their
countries? There never was a nation known as 'Palestine' which was
controlled by indiginous "Palestinian" people. Why such a bloody
conflict over having one now?
 
From

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24326

Moral equivalency in left's condemnation of Israel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

Moral equivalency is alive and well in the left's distorted vision of Middle East violence, where the targeting of terrorists is equated with the targeting of civilians, and those who send children into the streets to be shot are counted the same as those who are forced to shoot them.

During the Cold War, liberals excused Soviet atrocities with the most strained comparisons.

Thus, when anti-communists complained about the treatment of Soviet dissidents, liberals replied that America had political prisoners, too. But our "political prisoners' had committed real crimes (murder, robbery) motivated by ideology, whereas theirs had merely opened their mouths.

The same muddled thinking is regularly applied to Yasser Arafat's 11-month rampage. The death of Israeli children is balanced with the death of Palestinian children – never mind how the deaths occurred.

The State Department is among the culprits. Last week, in response to a spate of bombings and continuing its policy of pinpoint strikes against terrorist kingpins, Israel took out Mustafa Zubari.

"Israel needs to understand that targeted killings of Palestinians don't end the violence but are only inflaming an already volatile situation,' complained State Department spokesman Richard Boucher. The "targeted killing of Palestinians'? Which Palestinians – Palestinian accountants, Palestinian prima ballerinas?

Zubari was the head of a gang called the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, an affiliate of Arafat's PLO. This year alone, he was responsible for car bombings in Jerusalem, Haifa and Or Yehuda.

When the United States hit the Afghan bases of Osama bin Laden with cruise missiles in 1998, presumably, Boucher did not consider this "inflaming an already volatile situation." Would that we allowed our allies as much leeway in dealing with thugs.

Boucher neglected to inform Israel precisely how it should respond to suicide bombs, car bombs and mortar attacks. Equating preemptive strikes on military targets with aggression against civilians is moral equivalence.

But it's not the worst sort of moral equivalence. That was contained in a commentary by Jerry Long, who's syndicated by Knight-Ridder.

In an especially nasty outpouring, Long rhetorically wondered what lessons Israel had learned from the Holocaust when it referred to its anti-terrorist policy as "liquidation.' One must question the humanity, if not the sanity, of a writer who equates disposing of suicide-bomber dispatchers with the systematic slaughter of 6 million innocents.

"If Arafat must exert greater control over his murderers, couldn't Ariel Sharon have come down from his perch above Sabra and Shatila to stop his people from bashing the heads of Palestinian children against stone walls?' Long wondered.

This refers to the killings at refugee camps outside Beirut in 1982 – crimes committed by Lebanese militiamen. (Long apparently believes the Phalangists had converted to Judaism and joined the Israeli army.) When Time magazine implied that Sharon was responsible for the killings, the general sued for libel and was vindicated, not that this stops Israel-bashers from recycling a decades-old lie.

Arafat trains children to attack Israeli soldiers. He has them bused to flash points with stones and firebombs. Frequently, Palestinian gunmen stand behind human shields and fire on troops. As a result, children die. Arafat courts civilian casualties on his side for their propaganda value.

Is this the same as kidnapping two 14-year-old boys who are hiking near their homes, taking them to a cave and stoning them to death? Is it morally equivalent to looking through a rifle scope at an infant in her father's arms and deliberately blowing her head off?

Is it comparable to ambushing a family on a highway, shooting up their car, killing the parents and wounding the children? Is it akin to walking into a crowded pizzeria at noon and detonating a bomb packed with nails that shred the flesh of toddlers?

Those who excuse such atrocities with, "Oh, well, the Israelis fire rockets at Palestinian police stations (that harbor terrorists)," are only slightly less repugnant than the terrorists themselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello All !

Since there are a lot of American readers in this forum, I've
decided to write a little thing that would explain why the
Palestinians are liars and blood thirsty.

I will begin at 47- that year the UN decided to end the British
mandate and divide Israel into 2, one would belong to Jewish
people the other to the Arabs.

48- Israel decaled independence, British army leaves the country.

On 14 May, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed according to
the UN
Partition plan (1947). Less than 24 hours later, the regular
armies of
Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country, forcing
Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral
homeland.

I must add that that’s only 4 years or so since the tragic holocaust.
The Jewish population in Israel was 600,000.

Luckily Israel prevailed. (6000 Israelis died in that war. 1% of
the population)

Now the 56 war is explained here:
gopher: israel-info.gov.il/00/facts/history/state/h5c

The 67 war explained here:
gopher: israel-info.gov.il/00/facts/history/state/h5e

Now the worst war Israel had to protect itself was in my opinion
the 73 war.
That day Egypt and Syrian armies attacked Israel on the holiest day
of the Jews.

This is explained here:
gopher: israel-info.gov.il/00/facts/history/state/h5f

The rest you can read here:
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/israel.html

Israel doesn’t owe the Arabs anything. They lost land when they
were hostile.

Why didn’t the Palestinian ask Jordon till 67 for a country? (One
reason is that they would be shot and killed with no mercy)

So how come BIG Israel is “killing” the Palestinians as CNN shows us?

Well… It’s all a lie; CNN shows the public what they want you to see.
If Israel really wanted to kill the Palestinians, do you really
think it would be such a problem?
Well it is… after all they are people as we are, well maybe less
educated and brain washed with hatred but still.

So when there is information of some Arab “brain” is training,
preparing and executing terror attacks on Israel, well I think it’s
only fair he should be eliminated.

But why isn’t Israel talking with the Palestinians? That’s really
evil no? Well no, not more then a year ago, under the leadership
of Ehud Barak the elected prime minister at that time, Israel
offered the Palestinians a generous proposal. In fact I think it’s
a proposal that they didn’t deserve.

The proposal agreed Israel will withdraw from most parts of the
west bank, more then half of Jerusalem will be given to the
Palestinians, and they would be allowed to declare a country.

Sounds perfect right? well I guess it was for the Palestinians, but
history showed us that the Arabs like kids can’t settle to less
then the whole.

They wanted the right of return to Palestinians from around the
world to Israel (not the Palestinian part) that’s around 3,000,000
Palestinians that would be able to go back to Yafo … (near
Tel-Aviv) and others areas that are not west bank.

Now what sense does that make? Why would Israel agree to the
return of Palestinians to its part when there is a Palestinian
country?
Why would the Palestinians even want to be under Israeli rules when
they have their new fresh country?

Well its simple, Arabs make lots and lots of babies. Israelis
usually have 1 or 2 maybe 3.
It would take 10 years and what is called Israel wouldn’t be Israel
as we know it but another Arabic country.

Since then Arafat the murder as subjected both Israelis and his
“people” to extreme torture.

Yes the Palestinians are probably suffering. Is it Israel’s fault?
Not at all.

It’s really tragic that the Palestinians have such shitty
leadership. But again, it’s not Israel’s fault.

When we teach our kids at school songs of peace, they teach their
children how to fight and hate (not only Israel, but US and others)
They are breading a new generation of terrorists. That is the
reason why all of us have seen the joy of little “poor” Palestinian
kids when the WTC was attacked.

Another sad truth about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is that
families are rewarded by other Arab countries (Iraq) when their
kids are either wounded or killed. (as far as I know it’s $1000 for
a wound and $2000 dollars for a life that’s lost)

Where every single one of the Israelis would be delighted to live
in peace with its Arab neighbors, I wouldn’t say the same on the
Arabs, I wish I could.

Another interesting fact not many Americans know: Israel is the
only true democracy in the Middle East.

There are a couple of other reasons why Israel is just:
• Arabs have many nations. Jews have only one.
• Egypt and Syria and Jordon have so much land. What reason did
they have to be hostile against Israel? (sheer hate)

I urge Americans to remember that Israel is the U.S only true
friend in the all area.

I invite anyone to disagree with me.

Let me send my deep condolences to all of us Americans, may we
never see more sorrow. Be Strong!

Oren.

P.S I’m sorry if this is off the subjects of photography, but I had
to speak. Also excuse any spelling mistakes.
 
Moshe, that was an interesting article that seems to have some fair degree of accuracy. However, I question three points that Joseph Farah made. Perhaps you can fill us in on the following:

1) Mr. Farah claims that Palestinians, prior to the 1967 war, were known merely as Jordanian Arabs or Egyptian Arabs. He essentially claims that there is no real Palestinian identity, other than perhaps as displaced individuals. If this is true, why have the other neighboring Arab nations, as so many individuals have pointed out on this forum, refused to assimilate the Palestinian refugees, even after the passage of decades? Others have claimed that the Palestinians are the only significant group of refuges anywhere in the world in the past several generations who have not been assimilated into other cultures and societies - if the Palestinians are virtually indistinguishable from other Arabs, why have they been shunned and placed outside of the mainstream society of the countries where they now live?

2) Farah claimed Ariel Sharon came to visit the Temple Mount with an "entourage." Wasn't it more accurately described as a large number of armed troops? How many such troops/armed persons accompanied Sharon?

3) At least one other person in this forum has claimed that Sharon had no religious need to to to the Temple Mount as he is not even religious, and (presumably) merely wanted to provoke an incident with the Moslem Arabs there. Any truth to this?
 
Stan, see comments inside, but first a disclaimer, as i said, it's an interesting article, but it's not mine.
Moshe, that was an interesting article that seems to have some fair
degree of accuracy. However, I question three points that Joseph
Farah made. Perhaps you can fill us in on the following:

1) Mr. Farah claims that Palestinians, prior to the 1967 war, were
known merely as Jordanian Arabs or Egyptian Arabs. He essentially
claims that there is no real Palestinian identity, other than
perhaps as displaced individuals. If this is true, why have the
other neighboring Arab nations, as so many individuals have pointed
out on this forum, refused to assimilate the Palestinian refugees,
even after the passage of decades? Others have claimed that the
Palestinians are the only significant group of refuges anywhere in
the world in the past several generations who have not been
assimilated into other cultures and societies - if the Palestinians
are virtually indistinguishable from other Arabs, why have they
been shunned and placed outside of the mainstream society of the
countries where they now live?
I don't really know. I was born after 1967, and I am not an historian, but geography speaks for itself in this case:

Gaza strip was a part of egypt,
West Bank was a part of Jordan,
Israel lays in between.

Not all palestinians are refugees - the refugees are those that run away from Israel in 1948. Some of them stopped at what now is west bank, some further in land in Jordan, some in Lebanon etc. Those who stayed were given Israely citizenship and have the right to vote and every other civil right. Those that ended up in neighbouring Arab countries were not given citizenship, and were left in refugee camps. That's why although west bank or gaza is not a part of Jordan/Egypt today, you may still hear things like - palestinians in a refugee camp in Gaza Strip... although they are in palestinian authority. The palestinian claim today is to return all those refugees and their descendants from all the countries to Israel (not Gaza & West Bank, but Israel itself). That was the demand that blew the Camp-David meeting. After all, their descendants are now 3-million people. They want to have their own state, but settle their diaspora in Israel, thus turning israel into a second palestine.

AFAIK, the term palestinians had been used to describe arabs in todays Israel, WestBank & Jordan, simply as Arabs living in land named palestine.

Palestinians have never demanded autonomy under Jordanian rule, that's a fact.
2) Farah claimed Ariel Sharon came to visit the Temple Mount with
an "entourage." Wasn't it more accurately described as a large
number of armed troops? How many such troops/armed persons
accompanied Sharon?
Opposition leader as well as some other political figures are often guarded in israel, especially when they travel to dangerous places. Unfortunately for jews, traveling to the temple mount IS dangerous. I don't know how many accompanied Sharon, but there are hundreds if not more troops in the general area on usual basis, since stone throwing at the jews praying on western wall is very common.
3) At least one other person in this forum has claimed that Sharon
had no religious need to to to the Temple Mount as he is not even
religious, and (presumably) merely wanted to provoke an incident
with the Moslem Arabs there. Any truth to this?
Hmm, I am not religious, but i had visited the temple mount and western wall before the first Intifada. Many americans are not religious, but when visiting Jerusalem they visit the holy places. To be completely honest with you, Sharon might be adding a political agenda to this - to show that he as a member of parliament can visit the holiest place of his nation in the capitol of his country without fear. Is this wrong? I don't think so. Was it smart - probably not.
 
Moshe, that was an interesting article that seems to have some fair
degree of accuracy. However, I question three points that Joseph
Farah made. Perhaps you can fill us in on the following:

1) Mr. Farah claims that Palestinians, prior to the 1967 war, were
known merely as Jordanian Arabs or Egyptian Arabs. He essentially
claims that there is no real Palestinian identity, other than
perhaps as displaced individuals. If this is true, why have the
other neighboring Arab nations, as so many individuals have pointed
out on this forum, refused to assimilate the Palestinian refugees,
even after the passage of decades? Others have claimed that the
Palestinians are the only significant group of refuges anywhere in
the world in the past several generations who have not been
assimilated into other cultures and societies - if the Palestinians
are virtually indistinguishable from other Arabs, why have they
been shunned and placed outside of the mainstream society of the
countries where they now live?
I don't really know. I was born after 1967, and I am not an
historian, but geography speaks for itself in this case:

Gaza strip was a part of egypt,
West Bank was a part of Jordan,
Israel lays in between.

Not all palestinians are refugees - the refugees are those that run
away from Israel in 1948. Some of them stopped at what now is west
bank, some further in land in Jordan, some in Lebanon etc. Those
who stayed were given Israely citizenship and have the right to
vote and every other civil right. Those that ended up in
neighbouring Arab countries were not given citizenship, and were
left in refugee camps. That's why although west bank or gaza is not
a part of Jordan/Egypt today, you may still hear things like -
palestinians in a refugee camp in Gaza Strip... although they are
in palestinian authority. The palestinian claim today is to return
all those refugees and their descendants from all the countries to
Israel (not Gaza & West Bank, but Israel itself). That was the
demand that blew the Camp-David meeting. After all, their
descendants are now 3-million people. They want to have their own
state, but settle their diaspora in Israel, thus turning israel
into a second palestine.
AFAIK, the term palestinians had been used to describe arabs in
todays Israel, WestBank & Jordan, simply as Arabs living in land
named palestine.

Palestinians have never demanded autonomy under Jordanian rule,
that's a fact.
2) Farah claimed Ariel Sharon came to visit the Temple Mount with
an "entourage." Wasn't it more accurately described as a large
number of armed troops? How many such troops/armed persons
accompanied Sharon?
Opposition leader as well as some other political figures are often
guarded in israel, especially when they travel to dangerous places.
Unfortunately for jews, traveling to the temple mount IS dangerous.
I don't know how many accompanied Sharon, but there are hundreds if
not more troops in the general area on usual basis, since stone
throwing at the jews praying on western wall is very common.
3) At least one other person in this forum has claimed that Sharon
had no religious need to to to the Temple Mount as he is not even
religious, and (presumably) merely wanted to provoke an incident
with the Moslem Arabs there. Any truth to this?
Hmm, I am not religious, but i had visited the temple mount and
western wall before the first Intifada. Many americans are not
religious, but when visiting Jerusalem they visit the holy places.
To be completely honest with you, Sharon might be adding a
political agenda to this - to show that he as a member of
parliament can visit the holiest place of his nation in the capitol
of his country without fear. Is this wrong? I don't think so. Was
it smart - probably not.
Moshe,

It's enough to give me brain cramps! But all good stuff. Farah's got an excellent web site.There is a lot of prophecy that could point to the temple mount as being very significant. Whether or not you believe in prophetic events, they do influence the behavior of those that do.

I'm suprised that you aren't religious. Studying the scriptures may add to your understanding of events and how the various players may react.

I'm a christian and think the book of Jerimiah might be an interesting read for you.
Thanks again for helping me get up to speed.
Regards,FJBrad
 
Stan I have found a link to a palestinian charter -

http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/charter.htm

It says in particular:
-----
Article 1:

Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinian Arab people and an integral part of the great Arab homeland, and the people of Palestine are part of the Arab nation.

Article 5:

The Palestinians are the Arab citizens who were living permanently in Palestine until 1947, whether they were expelled or remained there. Whoever is born to a Palestinian father after that date, within Palestine or outside is a Palestinian.
----

article 5 is probably the creation and the definition of what are palestinian people. It dates 1947. Before that, i learned, Palestine arabs saw themselve as part of greater Syria.
Moshe, that was an interesting article that seems to have some fair
degree of accuracy. However, I question three points that Joseph
Farah made. Perhaps you can fill us in on the following:

1) Mr. Farah claims that Palestinians, prior to the 1967 war, were
known merely as Jordanian Arabs or Egyptian Arabs. He essentially
claims that there is no real Palestinian identity, other than
perhaps as displaced individuals. If this is true, why have the
other neighboring Arab nations, as so many individuals have pointed
out on this forum, refused to assimilate the Palestinian refugees,
even after the passage of decades? Others have claimed that the
Palestinians are the only significant group of refuges anywhere in
the world in the past several generations who have not been
assimilated into other cultures and societies - if the Palestinians
are virtually indistinguishable from other Arabs, why have they
been shunned and placed outside of the mainstream society of the
countries where they now live?

2) Farah claimed Ariel Sharon came to visit the Temple Mount with
an "entourage." Wasn't it more accurately described as a large
number of armed troops? How many such troops/armed persons
accompanied Sharon?

3) At least one other person in this forum has claimed that Sharon
had no religious need to to to the Temple Mount as he is not even
religious, and (presumably) merely wanted to provoke an incident
with the Moslem Arabs there. Any truth to this?
 
You are not a blood thirsty Arab, you are my brother and I am in
Brooklyn, NY.
David,

You might think I am kidding or making fun, BUt your words really moved me, thanks, we are all Brothers and sisters, jews christians and muslims,

and just to let you know, I was in my university hospital today and met with some of the most fanatic muslim colleagues in my dpt. They unanimously said that what has happened is " HARRAM" according to the teaching of Islam. I really wonder what has religion got to do with it, But remember that these fanatics look ar everything from a religious perspective even organ donation, and for them what is happened is Both terriBle and wrong. ( Haram means TOTALLY WRONG)

Killing innocent people is not right regardless of their religion, and we do not hate anyone, and believe it or not, we do hate the jews, after all they lived peacefully in egypt until 1948, a lot of intermarriages took place back then Between muslims and jews, and Between Christians and jews. Boutros Boutros Ghaly, the egyptian ex-UN secretary general is married to an Egyptian jew, Omar Shariff ( the famous egyptian actor; remeBer Dr. Zivago) is a Jew. All the famous actors and actresses in the once thriving movie Business in Cairo (that was Before 1948), were egyptian jews,

WE DONT HATE ANYONE, all we wish for is peace and justice for the palestinian people in at least a small percentage of "their" land, to alleviate the guilt feeling every arab suffers for the inability to help the question of palestine. When the peace talks started a few years Back we were all happy that there would Be no more wars, and that palestinians will finally get Bak what is rightfully theirs But the 'hawkish' leaders of Israel Believed that Being the STRONGEST in the region, they dont need to return anything.

Hatem Tawfik
Cairo
 
2) Farah claimed Ariel Sharon came to visit the Temple Mount with
an "entourage." Wasn't it more accurately described as a large
number of armed troops? How many such troops/armed persons
accompanied Sharon?
3000 fully armed
3) At least one other person in this forum has claimed that Sharon
had no religious need to to to the Temple Mount as he is not even
religious, and (presumably) merely wanted to provoke an incident
with the Moslem Arabs there. Any truth to this?
this was simply a provocative act
 
Moshe Vainer wrote:
Stan I have found a link to a palestinian charter -

http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/charter.htm

It says in particular:
-----
Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinian Arab people and an
integral part of the great Arab homeland, and the people of
Palestine are part of the Arab nation.

Article 5:
The Palestinians are the Arab citizens who were living permanently
in Palestine until 1947, whether they were expelled or remained
there. Whoever is born to a Palestinian father after that date,
within Palestine or outside is a Palestinian.
Moshe

What you are writing here is an indication that you are a very honest person, I add to article 1 that given the ' de facto' state of events since 1948, most arabs soberly believe that palestine can indeed be the ' homeland of arabs and Israelis'.

The fact that palestinians regarded themselves as part of ALSHAM ( greater Syria) who in turn considered itself part of 'ARABIA' does not deprive the palestinians of their rights Becuase Egyptians for example consider themselves part of ARBIA, rememBer that we have been under one rule for centuries But this does not mean that we have a different identity from the rest of the arabs around us and we are proud of this identity. to understand this, Try to imagine UNIFIED EUROPE

Hatem
Cairo
 
And palestinians are so easily provoked that they went on a year long terror rampage after the visit. Other thing to consider is that the riots and shootings began several days before the visit.

And once again, the troops are there almost every friday prayer to separate between muslim praying in El-Aksa and jewish praying right under them in western wall, sitting there as easy targets for not so rare stone throwing incidents.

The troops probably were more than usual since arab leaders promised sharon's visit to be very unwelcome. Since he does has a right to be there, what can a state do except to protect him?

If Al-Gore wants to visit washington, but some national group in washington sees this as an insult, should his visit be prohibited or should he be protected?
2) Farah claimed Ariel Sharon came to visit the Temple Mount with
an "entourage." Wasn't it more accurately described as a large
number of armed troops? How many such troops/armed persons
accompanied Sharon?
3000 fully armed
3) At least one other person in this forum has claimed that Sharon
had no religious need to to to the Temple Mount as he is not even
religious, and (presumably) merely wanted to provoke an incident
with the Moslem Arabs there. Any truth to this?
this was simply a provocative act
 
Hatem,

I try to be objective, although both you and i know that we both are partial. And that is understandable.

The articles that i brought here are an historical perspective. I do not agree with the author that the palestinian identity of palestinian arabs will vanish. I do think that the palestinian state will probably come into existance. My main problem with the whole issue is:

1. It could have already been done if Camp-David suggestions by Clinton were accepted by palestinians.

2. No Israely will accept the return of 3 million palestinians into the state of Israel after the Palestinians will have their own state. This is just another way of saying that Israel has to be destroyed.

3. Terror is not the way to fight for freedom or for statehood. Especially terror against civillian population.
Moshe Vainer wrote:
Stan I have found a link to a palestinian charter -

http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/charter.htm

It says in particular:
-----
Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinian Arab people and an
integral part of the great Arab homeland, and the people of
Palestine are part of the Arab nation.

Article 5:
The Palestinians are the Arab citizens who were living permanently
in Palestine until 1947, whether they were expelled or remained
there. Whoever is born to a Palestinian father after that date,
within Palestine or outside is a Palestinian.
Moshe
What you are writing here is an indication that you are a very
honest person, I add to article 1 that given the ' de facto' state
of events since 1948, most arabs soberly believe that palestine
can indeed be the ' homeland of arabs and Israelis'.
The fact that palestinians regarded themselves as part of ALSHAM (
greater Syria) who in turn considered itself part of 'ARABIA' does
not deprive the palestinians of their rights Becuase Egyptians for
example consider themselves part of ARBIA, rememBer that we have
been under one rule for centuries But this does not mean that we
have a different identity from the rest of the arabs around us and
we are proud of this identity. to understand this, Try to imagine
UNIFIED EUROPE

Hatem
Cairo
 
They cannot, indeed...

I would not like to take either part in this debate, because I simply do not know the matter in its entegrity. But for the balance, I would like to see picture with Israeli kids carrying guns and uniform. Also, I have read here that Palestinian families receive money for each killed or injured child - is it really true and what's the source? Is there such "compensation" for Israeli children? Please excuse my stupid questions.

Masha
 
Masha, Israely children do not carry guns. Israel is not very much different than Canada or Europe for that matter. The only time children see guns are when they are 18 year old, and go to the army. In fact, having a gun not secured against kids (in a safe or similar measure) is a crime. You will not see Israely kids in any sort of training camps, boy-scout camps - yes, but not otherwise. Actually, tolerance is one of the subjects that is teached in school. Rabin's heritage and the strive for peace is taught in schools also. Palestinian history and mistakes made by Israel/Israelys (and there definately were) are taught in school.

As for payments for killed children in PA, i can not attest for that. I heard that too, but i have no confirmed source at this time.
They cannot, indeed...

I would not like to take either part in this debate, because I
simply do not know the matter in its entegrity. But for the
balance, I would like to see picture with Israeli kids carrying
guns and uniform. Also, I have read here that Palestinian families
receive money for each killed or injured child - is it really true
and what's the source? Is there such "compensation" for Israeli
children? Please excuse my stupid questions.

Masha
 

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