A lesson WELL learned ..

My state provides a small business development group to help you get started. They provide free consultation in writing a business plan and also names of service providers (Laywers, CPAs...) that will donate 1 to 3 hours of time to you. it was very nice for me to realize my mistakes on my server management business.

DOrtiz said:

.. what would be considered a fiar price for the imagtes in sizes
mentioned about if you're at the event anyway? What would YOU sell
them for? Same as me (seen here): http://dortizphoto.com/prices.htm

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

Click to expand...

Dave, this may sound "harsh". Your prices are not the reason you (are now) or (in the future) may experience difficulties. You will need to improve your methods to where you are proficient enough to be comparable with the prices you have published. If it takes 5 to 10 times the time (and cost) to manufacture a "Widget" then, it is very hard to be compensated for the obvious inefficiencies of the entire process and/or Manufacturing time and cost.

A person (or business) may not be successful if they consider that they can just charge higher prices and leave their methods and efficiency at the current status. Sorry, it just does NOT work....

In my opinion, if you think the answer is to just modify your prices upward will resolve the situation; then, save yourself a lot of exasperation and get out of the process of trying to make a "Buck" in Photography and enjoy your Photography as a Hobby.

Unfortunately, you may have exposed yourself to a challenge completely before you had made even the most basic preparations for such a venture.

--
Vernon...

Hi Guys!!

Thanks for the VERY informative responses. I don't take anything personal believe me. Now I must re-evaluate my situation with my wife this evening and see where we go from here.

Guess the 30D or 5D is out of the question .. especially if it's going to wind up just being a hobby. :-(

Thanks again friends..

Regards,
Dave

I have not vested any time in pricing photogaphy other than what I have read on the forums. Just remember that this can be a volume like many businesses.

One hour spending correcting an image adds cost to the selling price. It is significant with the image being sold once but almost nothing if you sell 100 of them.

DOrtiz said:

.. what would be considered a fiar price for the imagtes in sizes
mentioned about if you're at the event anyway? What would YOU sell
them for? Same as me (seen here): http://dortizphoto.com/prices.htm

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

Click to expand...

ShudderBug said:

4X6 you can't expect to get that much for. Maybe next time they'll
want 5X7's and 8X10's.

Click to expand...

Hey ShudderBug.... why can't you expect much for 4x6's? I know SEVERAL photographers that charge $30 for every print up to 8x10, and then $50 for an 8x10.

I personally charge $5 for a 4x6, but will be raising that to around $15, unless 10 or more are purchased. It's just not worth the hassle of fulfilling 4x6 orders. i don't care that they cost $.50, it's not the paper they're paying for.

Jim

--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366

• You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you want!
• Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.

DOrtiz said:

Hi Guys!!

Thanks for the VERY informative responses. I don't take anything
personal believe me. Now I must re-evaluate my situation with my
wife this evening and see where we go from here.

Guess the 30D or 5D is out of the question .. especially if it's
going to wind up just being a hobby. :-(

Thanks again friends..

Regards,
Dave

Click to expand...

Dave, I suggest you get the equipment idea (re, add a newer or better Camera, etc) out of your thoughts and out of mind. In my opinion, that is NOT the problem. We don't just one day buy a new (and good) Camera and an excellent lens and all of a sudden decide we (immediately) will be successful in the "business world" of Photography and** especially if we have not prepared ourselves for the many facets to be successful.

There are so MANY more things to consider than pointing a Camera and pressing the Button -- then spending 15, 30, or more minutes (for each image) for post processing and related functions.

If I remember your equipment correctly (20d plus at least one of Canon's BEST 80 - 200 lens, etc) if you can not make that setup work for you (with the type of Photography you are in) -- then, (in my opinion) there is a REAL PROBLEM
--
Vernon...

Juli Valley said:

with my church photos. Everyone loves them, but they don't realize
how much time and money is invested in making them. --

Click to expand...

I started making slide shows from the event photos I took at church. It is not too bad to assemble photos taken by myself as I can sort the photos by the exif dates. when added in photos from another fellow church member, I discovered that his camera clock was 2 hours behind. If the camera clocks are not synchronized, sorting the photos by date/time can be a nightmare as the exif dates are no longer reliable.

This week I was asked put together a slideshow from 1600 mission trip photos and they cannot be sorted easily. They were taken with different cameras, some digital and some film scanned in. The scanned photos have no picture taken date/time and some of the digital cameras may not have the date set from the beginning. It was time consuming just to rename the photos so they can be in a certain order.
--
Nelson
http://pbase.com/nelsonc

I understand Vernon ... thanks for the up front and honest feedback/advice my friend.

My wife and I will need to discuss this in detail tonight. Much needs to be thought out. One good thing is the guy who placed the order for the $119.00 of which I would have wound up with a whopping $13.05 hasn't replied to my email for confirmation of payment.

Thus, it appears I didn't make the sale, let alone the 13 bucks.

Oh well.. guess we have to take the good with the bad right?

Thanks again my friend.

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

JimmyJames said:

I have not vested any time in pricing photogaphy other than what I
have read on the forums. Just remember that this can be a volume
like many businesses.

One hour spending correcting an image adds cost to the selling
price. It is significant with the image being sold once but almost
nothing if you sell 100 of them.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct:

Also, it should be a RARE situation when it should take an hour to adjust the "usual" sports type of image. So, there must be a problem with the initial capture (exposure) for the image or** there is a lack of experience level with the image editing software.

The main images that may fall into the "higher volume" number of sales for a specific image could possibly be for an exposure of the Team or other "Multi Interest" type of image and even then, the volume will probably be somewhat less than the 100 as used for the illustration.

If this is even partially true, then Dave will probably need to consider that there may be a much higher ratio of 1 or 2 sales for a specific image.

--
Vernon...

JimmyJames said:

DOrtiz said:

.. what would be considered a fiar price for the imagtes in sizes
mentioned about if you're at the event anyway? What would YOU sell
them for? Same as me (seen here): http://dortizphoto.com/prices.htm

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Vernon...

I shoot the local high schools Crew events (not for sale) and some weeks I take hours to post process the images before posting to the web site. Other weeks I just don't have time so I just post the unprocessed jpgs and of course the difference is like night an day but the parents of the kids on the crew team rave just as much about the unprocessed photos as they do about the processed ones. I think to myself "your nuts" they need color/contrast adjustments, sharpening, etc but the audience doesn't seem to care or notice. All they care about is that Jr made this weeks crop of photos and how cute they look or how close the finish was. Plus the unprocessed jpgs are far better then they could get with their P&S.

I guess my thought is that although I'd want good crisp photos the potential client may not care as long as the content of the photo is better than they could get and is of interest to them. So then comes the balance of what’s good professional quality and the reality of what the customer will pay for. Seems to me that balance is directly related to your profit margin. You can "over work" your shot and have the perfect looking photos and little money made or you can do an adequate post processing job have good photos and make a few bucks. It's art over business which is why, even if my work was good enough to sell, I wouldn't want to get into selling it.

Just a non professionals opinion. ;-)

--
Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

In a earlier post by SFishy...

"Look at the rates other pros are charging. Do a search on Google for "per hour photography rates" (without the quotes) and just read. You do NOT want to undercut yourself! It's okay for building experience, but once you get a reputation as being "cheap" it's hard to get anyone to pay more."

This is so true! I left my IT profession of 12 years to pursue personal interests and photography became a full time job by accident, something many would call GOOD LUCK. I'll come back to this a bit later ... on Sept 11, 2002 I launched my internet-only business distributing turbochargers to dealers across USA with a view to echo the same in UK, Australia and Asia and in two years, I accomplished that with a USD 680k turnover (www.janshim.com/motorsports/). Since this business is completely international, I had to have something to do in my spare time so I bought my first DSLR, the 300D and entered the market with just one proven philosophy: "if you start low, you're stuck low." Which is exactly the point Amy (SFishy) made above.

I did my first wedding strictly a volunteer job alongside http://www.janshim.com/wedding/index.htm another Canon photographer but he shot film. As a businessman, what I saw wasn't an opportunity to showcase my work but the networking potential in any one wedding that I am involved in. Turns out that the bride liked me work over the other guy and as I had expected, all her friends, guests and family liked them as well .. word got out and that basically launched my name as a wedding photographer although today I market myself as Pro Events Photographer to maintain a broader spectrum of portfolio. The second wedding onwards, prices were straight at at mid to high end package and stayed there for a while before I decided to increase it higher to include other services.

This way, other established photogs aren't threatend by yet another photographer charging unethically. We already have a handful of these people undercutting the market. My point is this .. one needs to approach this business from a businessman perspective with good understanding of your specific market dynamics.

--
Jan Shim
Pro Events Photography
http://www.janshim.com

Well said Jan. I will remember your advice.
--
Art is in the eye of the beholder
My opinion is one of many, and probably differs greatly from the norm.

Keep at it, you'll turn a profit with time. The one major thing I have learned from my professional photographer friends (ones that make a living at it) is photography is a lobour of love, not one that you get rich doing. Just remember, if it is what you love, keep at it and everything else will fall into place. That is, of course, why I am only a part time photographer.

--
Ciao
Web Site
http://www.dotcom-multimedia.com
Online Photo Album
http://photobucket.com/albums/b86/rhlowe/

Dave,

I dont know what website you are using. But may i suggest that you try http://www.photoreflect.com . You don't get charged a few for using the site, but i believe that they take 15% of the order and then i believe it is 3% for credit card fees. But that way you dont have to worry about the payment issues for the most part, the customer pays photoreflect and they pay you, you can get set up with a quality lab, and you dont have to resize any pics for the web. For you uploading time, you can start the upload and then go to bed, and its uploaded! just some thoughts. Oh and for PS, i dont know how good you are in it, but actions are the greatest create an action that does all the stuff that you usually do for a picture and it takes a fraction of the time.

Cory

$119... 20% is 23.80.

so you got $95.20

how much can shipping possibly be? no more than $15, right?

taxes... ok... what are taxes? 5%?

even if they are 50%... how is it possible that you end up with 13 bucks??????

i sell on smugmug, and if we're talkin' an order of around $40 (which seems to be closer to average for me than $119), then i'm getting more than $30 on that.

DOrtiz said:

Well .. after my very first order, I finally get to SEE what you
guys mean about one's time and the price that should asked for your
services.

I received my very first order of $119.00 for seven 4x6, a coffee
mug, 2 t-shirts and a puzzle. After shipping, taxes, and 20% to
the school, I wound up with a WHOPPING $13.05 for my hard work and
time.

Oh well .. live and lear, right? :-(

Regards,
Dave

Click to expand...

--
-Dan

duh. didn't think of that. the order is 119. you're getting the markup.

YOU GOTTA MARK UP MORE!!!

especially for junk like tshirts and mugs. make it double of whatever it costs you to make it.

yldan said:

so you got $95.20

how much can shipping possibly be? no more than $15, right?

taxes... ok... what are taxes? 5%?

even if they are 50%... how is it possible that you end up with 13
bucks??????

i sell on smugmug, and if we're talkin' an order of around $40
(which seems to be closer to average for me than $119), then i'm
getting more than $30 on that.

DOrtiz said:

Well .. after my very first order, I finally get to SEE what you
guys mean about one's time and the price that should asked for your
services.

I received my very first order of $119.00 for seven 4x6, a coffee
mug, 2 t-shirts and a puzzle. After shipping, taxes, and 20% to
the school, I wound up with a WHOPPING $13.05 for my hard work and
time.

Oh well .. live and lear, right? :-(

Regards,
Dave

Click to expand...

--
-Dan

Click to expand...

--
-Dan

Over the last couple of years I've given away photos, worked for virtually nothing but kept trying to improve my product and get my name into the neighboring communities. I looked for a niche that no one else was doing (or at least doing well). I've found businesses in my local town that were willing to display my wares. All of a sudden, in the last couple of months things have been taking off. I'm averaging ten orders a week working part time (I'm a teacher full time) and my photos cost anywhere from $15 to $75. Last night I got an order for 110 photos! Today I sold a $75 print and got a $195 order from Florida. I put in a bid to be the "official photographer" for the Division II Legion Baseball Tournament and worked my butt off to get the job done right. Now I have people contacting me to do custom shoots (one yesterday and another today). Bottom line, if you want to make some money at this game, you have to put in your time and effort. Good luck! It can be done!

What I have written earlier was about how my wedding photography services started. About the same time last year during our Crown Prince's Royal Wedding ( http://www.janshim.com/royalparade/index.htm ) I took my 300D to where the celebration was being held, not realizing many of the Government Ministers, Permanent Secretaries and many other VIPs attending the event were there. Towards the end of the celebration, some of these VIPs were hanging around the stage chatting with one another and one of them had me come over to take their group photos. This gentleman later turned out to be the Leader of the Chinese Community, the highest title given to an individual by His Majesty, the Sultan of Brunei. He then invited me to join him at a formal luncheon with the Crown Prince and his new bride, and that we were to go in his Lexus.

That fateful day, Sept 15, 2004, I had become his personal photographer and have since been travelling with him when he visits Heads of Diplomatic Missions in Brunei and events that he's involved in. This is clearly a case of me being at the right place at the right time.

Recently, journalists engaged by USA TODAY visited Brunei Darussalam and they interviewed my client and a number of other economic leaders. A supplement to USA TODAY featuring their compilation of news about Brunei Darussalam will be published and a couple of my photos have been chosen for use in the publication. I look forward to being credited in a few million circulation, as I have been informed.

Jan

Richard Adams said:

Well said Jan. I will remember your advice.
--
Art is in the eye of the beholder
My opinion is one of many, and probably differs greatly from the norm.

Click to expand...

--
Jan Shim
Pro Events Photography
http://www.janshim.com

Photography is very demanding and at time I find it way too demanding on the person's fitness. A typical Chinese wedding I shoot lasts 12 hours, of which I get 2 hours break if I am lucky and enough time to recharge my Quantum Turbo battery pack. A full charged BG-E2 gives me enough juice to last 4GB of shoot. We stand at these events most of the time hand-holding my 20D/24-70/550EX/BG-E2/LS-II and the Quantum Turbo clipped to my waist belt. My back starts to hurt after a few hours but as the event builds up, adrenalin takes over and masks the pain and the rest just becomes a question of endurance.

finnbay said:

Over the last couple of years I've given away photos, worked for
virtually nothing but kept trying to improve my product and get my
name into the neighboring communities. I looked for a niche that
no one else was doing (or at least doing well). I've found
businesses in my local town that were willing to display my wares.
All of a sudden, in the last couple of months things have been
taking off. I'm averaging ten orders a week working part time (I'm
a teacher full time) and my photos cost anywhere from $15 to $75.
Last night I got an order for 110 photos! Today I sold a $75 print
and got a $195 order from Florida. I put in a bid to be the
"official photographer" for the Division II Legion Baseball
Tournament and worked my butt off to get the job done right. Now I
have people contacting me to do custom shoots (one yesterday and
another today). Bottom line, if you want to make some money at
this game, you have to put in your time and effort. Good luck! It
can be done!

Click to expand...

--
Jan Shim
Pro Events Photography
http://www.janshim.com

I only marked up some items $1.00 or $2.00 .. tack on shipping from them to me, less 20% of my gross income to the school and that's what I wouynd up with. :-(

Thanks for the the advice and valued information. Clearly we have some revamping to do..

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz