8 MP or Bust!

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format film

shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna
--Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

You're quite right!

But until the cameras actually hit the 10MP+ I want to give my shots as much potential as possible (cropping or printing possibilities).

Since I'm a happy owner of a Casio QV3000 and feel it's time to move on I had decided on the E-10. I'm happy to wait for the new improved version of the camera, however, since I'm in no hurry.

I'ts just like the Mhz panic with CPUs. It's starting to slow down a bit but we're few steps behnd with the MP count in digicams so the panis will go on for at least two years before people realize that they actually might have enough MP to survivr without upgrading every year.

Chris

Sorry for all the typos
I meant panic...

Amen my brother!

Michael

Chris said:

Sorry for all the typos
I meant panic...

Click to expand...

Yup, have been using my dual PII 400Mhz computer for 3 years now, and don't even think of upgrading yet. My E-10 will see a long useful life as well

assuming one is good enough to not need to crop ones shots...

• seb

Hi Michael

Well - what I say is . . . . . . that you're clearly right, but who can afford a high end drum scanner (and I won't accept the same remark with respect to 35mm film and normal negative scanners - oh NO - been there - thought that - proved wrong!).

You're also right that it isn't really worth doing until they get to 8MP - but me - all the rest of the E-10 being equal - I'll probably lose my mind!

kind regards
jono slack

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

I agree with you, Jono. Most of us don't use medium format and drum scanners as the comparison. MF has always produced a better image than 35mm, so if digital can get comparable to good 35mm and "normal" scanners, that's enough for me. I'll keep the E-10 even if I get an E20. It's the first of its kind and I think may eventually have some value for that fact too. Sort of like the little Olympus XA-2...the first clamshell. K.

Jono Slack said:

You're also right that it isn't really worth doing until they get
to 8MP - but me - all the rest of the E-10 being equal - I'll
probably lose my mind!

kind regards
jono slack

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yeah baby yeah, very yeah!

What he said!

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

Sure, Brian. I just know you'll have 2 (or maybe 3) E-20s shortly after they're available.....wanna take a bet on this? just kidding~~ K.

Brian Mackey said:

What he said!

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Michael Luna said:

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of
higher quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

Click to expand...

There is no doubt about that. My contention has always been that to match the very best 35mm slides and prints, you will need between 6 and 12 megapixels of resolution. 6 to 8 with high quality pixels, 10 to 12 if you have noisier/fuzzier ones. The Nikon D1X and the Kodak DCS760 are almost at the point where they can surpass the best 35mm film purely in terms of resolution detail. Colour accuracy, saturation, flexibility, etc. I think digital already has film beat hands down.

Going from about 3.7MP on the E-10 to a 5MP camera isn't a big enough of a leap for me, unless we're talking high-end digital SLR quality pixels and under $2000 US. To have both would would be a phenomenal breakthrough.

Michael Luna said:

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

Click to expand...

I sure hope a bunch of smart engineers figure out how to give us clean shots at ISO 800 or 1600, or with exposure times measured in minutes and hours. Film still has the upper hand when it comes to high speed and/or long exposure photography, IMHO.

ah peshaw! me? more than one of something? Never... Yep ill take the bet, lessen i find a another dealer going out of business again.

:0)

koo22 said:

Brian Mackey said:

What he said!

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What was it the bowl of Petunia's said? ... "oh no, not again!"

Not taking into account the dynamic range detail of digital over film (wow, there's detail in that black dog's coat!), and to some extent of the last year or so, how accurate the colours are...

Here's my text file of "notes" of all the mega-pixel debate information I've collected from these forums (it seems that actually, we came equal at 2mp). Read on...

Excal

******************************************************************************************************************

How many mp's to match:
(1) best available B&W film (eg. TechPan @ 25 ASA)
(2) best available color film (eg. Kodachrome 25)
(3) ordinary B&W film (eg. T-Max @ 100, 400 ASA)
(4) ordinary color film (eg. Gold @ 100, 400 ASA)

35mm film is how many mp's? (official answer is apparently 20mp)

(a) 2.16mp (35mm neg = 24mm x 36mm; 50 lines/mm = this lense would be better than most films)
(b) 6mp

(c) 8.64mp (35mm neg = 24mm x 36mm; 100 lines/mm = a good lense can resolve this)

(d) 13.5mp (35mm neg = 24mm x 36mm; 125 lines/mm = the best lenses can resolve this)
(e) 10mp (not including Kodachrome)

(f) 20mp (that is the amount of raw information a B&W negative such as TechPan holds)

'lines/mm' is really a shortening of 'line pairs/mm', so you may need TWO pixels for each of those lines, therefore quadrupling (a), (c) and (d).

Resolution isn't the only factor - the 2.5mp NikonD1 is far less noisy and so gives better results, than the 5mp DiMAGE.

Apparently, the human eye cannot discern anything above 4mp anyway (> 4mp useful for big enlargements / cropping maybe???).

******************************************************************************************************************

I seem to remember something about 20/20 vision being approx. 1 arc minute. For a high contrast subject, under perfect lighting conditions - any visual feature that covers less than 1 arc minute across our FOV is generally not noticeable (ie. isn't a bright point of light). This means the smallest feature visible at distance D is roughly around D/4000 or so in size (based on some trig calculations). If you are looking at a sheet of paper 12 inches away, your eyes will be able to resolve detail as small as 12/4000 = 1/333rd of an inch (and thus the 300 dpi figure for early laser printers). Photos generally do not have high-contrast edges and lines in them, so you can get away with, say, 200 dpi and still have it "look good". An 8x10 photo would then need at least a 1600x2000 source image.

******************************************************************************************************************

Using a £50K neg-scanner, it works out to 4096X2736 which equals 11,206.656 pixels. If you try to go beyond that you can not see it on the film period. I have used film recorders that can put 8192X5742 on 35 mm film and you can not see any difference. You may ask why do we have recorders that can do 8192X5742 well guess why Larger film like 4x5 and 8x10 film backs..

My experience suggests that the E-10 easily matches 400 ASA color film. In the past I would scan 400 ASA negs @ 6mp (HP S-20, not a great scanner) and capture the grain very sharply. When you can resolve the film grain clearly, I think I have gotten all of the useful information from the neg. Slides are more problematic because the scanner has no easily defined, source of useful calibration data.

******************************************************************************************************************

4000x3000 pixels will make an 8x10 print at nearly 400 pixels per inch of true resolution. This means you can make 40x30 enlargements that look really good by interpolating away the pixel jaggies.

I have also heard from a source at Olympus that that is getting more and more difficult to achieve. That's why we are stuck at 4 megabixels for a while. The CCD technology needs to be refined before that can happen.

******************************************************************************************************************

the people that do not own the E-10 at the present time, I would like to buy the E-10 now, but with it being this late in the game (so to speak), I am going to refrain from that purchase and wait to see what Olympus has in store for us with the new model.

If the new model holds the current design, feel and performance of the E-10 and plus 5+MP, then it would be silly for us(the non-owners of the E-10 at present) to purchase anything but the new E-20?..E-11? or E-whatever and then we can wait for a 10-12MP or 12-14MP successor.

We will just have to wait and see what the new model has to offer as far as resolution, print quality, useable ISO ratings, image noise and so on as to whether or not it will be capable of producing the qaulity of images that we all expect that it should.

The question of buying the new model or not will be the choice of each individual and whether or not the camera will suit his or her needs, and on the other hand, some are going to purchase just because it's the latest thing to add to their arsenal of "toys" or "tools".

There is no doubt in my mind Michael that you love that E-10 and if I had purchased one I would probably love mine, also.

I would love to have an E-10 now, but my little voice is telling me to wait it out for the new version.

waiting impatiently,
Mike L. Whitten

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

Indeed, hold out for the new one (or until Phil does his review at any rate). Nothing wrong with that. But depending on price, features, quality etc., you might still end up getting the E-10 anyway!

Excal

SI Mike said:

The question of buying the new model or not will be the choice of
each individual and whether or not the camera will suit his or her
needs, and on the other hand, some are going to purchase just
because it's the latest thing to add to their arsenal of "toys" or
"tools".

There is no doubt in my mind Michael that you love that E-10 and if
I had purchased one I would probably love mine, also.
I would love to have an E-10 now, but my little voice is telling me
to wait it out for the new version.

waiting impatiently,
Mike L. Whitten

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

MAROKERO,

OMG.
Did I just step into a grandfather's discussion?

Jason Busch

My Kaypro CPM beauty is still plenty good enough for me.

Have to admit it does choke just a wee bit on PS6.

David

Hi Excal,

qouting you if I may, " you might still end up getting the E-10 anyway!".

my thoughts exactly!

will just wait it out and see what Phil thinks about it.

Mike

Excal wrote:
But depending on price,

excal said:

features, quality etc., you might still end up getting the E-10
anyway!

Excal

SI Mike said:

The question of buying the new model or not will be the choice of
each individual and whether or not the camera will suit his or her
needs, and on the other hand, some are going to purchase just
because it's the latest thing to add to their arsenal of "toys" or
"tools".

There is no doubt in my mind Michael that you love that E-10 and if
I had purchased one I would probably love mine, also.
I would love to have an E-10 now, but my little voice is telling me
to wait it out for the new version.

waiting impatiently,
Mike L. Whitten

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I'll race you with my Heathkit H89 at a blazing 6 MHz.

DF said:

My Kaypro CPM beauty is still plenty good enough for me.

Have to admit it does choke just a wee bit on PS6.

David

Click to expand...

Just all of us are happy with the E10 or other model or brand digicam.

We cannot wait until the 10 or 20 or 30 Mpixels cameras are in the market,

remember the quality is so good and also we cannot loose the time waiting the last technology, because in the meantime we loose shots and unforgettables moments and pictures.

If anybody can wait for 100 years or more, I'm sure that the digital photography will be only a little step of the past were we are now.

Enjoy the moment and your spectacular tools for now.

Giovanni

Michael Luna said:

Hi all,

I can't wait to see the group lose it's mind if the rumors are true
about the 5.4 MP E-20 or whatever it will be called.

Bottom line the fact of the matter is this...

Until you hit at least a true 8 MP CCD capture, great medium format
film
shots scanned with a high end drum scanner will ALWAYS be of higher
quality. (this may irritate some people but it's true)

So I'll hold on to my E-10 as it's paid for itself 10 fold, keep
shooting with it, continure to make my customers happy and wait for
the E-40 or E-50 for under 2 grand and buy the 8.8 or 10 MP version!

No matter what all other say.... I love my E-10!

So there!

Michael Luna

--
Michael Luna
Luna Creative Design
http://www.mikeluna.com

Click to expand...