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New Sony - D7 competition?
- Thread starter Will Smith46135
- Start date
B
Bob Williams
Guest
If not for memory stick, my first 3.3 would have been a Sony.
If not for memory stick, my first 4mp might be a Sony.
If not for memory stick, my first long zoom camera might be a
Sony.
Because of memory stick, none of my cameras will ever be a Sony.
I don't even look at them anymore.
If not for memory stick, my first 4mp might be a Sony.
If not for memory stick, my first long zoom camera might be a
Sony.
Because of memory stick, none of my cameras will ever be a Sony.
I don't even look at them anymore.
Yeh, Bob, just mem stick. You would have thought they would have at least a CF slot 1, if not MD too. Also, it appears to not be as controllable as the D7. Hope it has some way to control in camera that synthetic looking color the Sony's produce
Nightshot is a fun gimmick IMHO. Sony always puts sepia in there! Thus far I am not envious, although it may prove to be a very nice camera photogrphically, especially with the CZ designed lens, that is if they have got as much CA out of it as Minolta did. Bigger glass without WA, and unless a third party WA will work well or they have redesigned their own WA conv, there sure wont be much competition there based on the several Sony WA convs that I have used.
It will be interesting to see what they have done with the metering.
All in all, thus far the competition is not yet awe inspiring, but who knows what lies around the corner of the next day.
My suspicion is that the 707 is the main new competition and may remain so. I can't see Canon putting another model between the G2 and the D30.
And I would really be surprised if anyone other than Oly is on the near horizon, and theirs is likely to be a stretched E10, which also will be competitive, especially for those who don't mind weight.
Most of the others will likely concentrate on the consumer P&S stuff that is expected to sell very well in the next three years. There is just not the same market opportunity for the smaller players in the 5mp Prosumer niche. In Fact, one has to wonder just how big that market is anyway, or just how big it will be when they get the price of D30 type cameras with 5-6mp sensors on board down another 30-40%. Not my kind of camera, but there are a hell of a pile of excellent quality system lenses out there in the hands of reasonably experienced photogrphers waiting for that option to become less dear.
Ha, the speculation will now start in earnest. Who will be next?
dh
Nightshot is a fun gimmick IMHO. Sony always puts sepia in there! Thus far I am not envious, although it may prove to be a very nice camera photogrphically, especially with the CZ designed lens, that is if they have got as much CA out of it as Minolta did. Bigger glass without WA, and unless a third party WA will work well or they have redesigned their own WA conv, there sure wont be much competition there based on the several Sony WA convs that I have used.
It will be interesting to see what they have done with the metering.
All in all, thus far the competition is not yet awe inspiring, but who knows what lies around the corner of the next day.
My suspicion is that the 707 is the main new competition and may remain so. I can't see Canon putting another model between the G2 and the D30.
And I would really be surprised if anyone other than Oly is on the near horizon, and theirs is likely to be a stretched E10, which also will be competitive, especially for those who don't mind weight.
Most of the others will likely concentrate on the consumer P&S stuff that is expected to sell very well in the next three years. There is just not the same market opportunity for the smaller players in the 5mp Prosumer niche. In Fact, one has to wonder just how big that market is anyway, or just how big it will be when they get the price of D30 type cameras with 5-6mp sensors on board down another 30-40%. Not my kind of camera, but there are a hell of a pile of excellent quality system lenses out there in the hands of reasonably experienced photogrphers waiting for that option to become less dear.
Ha, the speculation will now start in earnest. Who will be next?
dh
Homer40784
Senior Member
I think the D7 is still on top (Of course, some will depend on resolution/IQ ).
The lens on the 707 looks like it could end up being the second best available in this price class. I think the MD7 lens will be the king for quite a while do to it;s zoom range.
The 707 lens is fast tho, F2.0-F2.4
But I think the Sony Forum will go into shock when they figure out that the new lens is 58mm....obsoleting any lenses they had for the predescessor, the 505V, which was 52mm.
I think we have seen Canons best shot for awhile (Clever of them to move some D30 tech into the old G1)
Even If OLy "upgrade" the E10.......it will probably go UP in price.........
I wonder if Nikon has anything coming...........
Seems to me that the D7 could be king of the hill in this relative price class for some time to come.
Homer
B
Bob Williams
Guest
I posted this months ago. Canon thinks a lens they make that
would compare with the lens on the D-7 is worth more than the
D-7 costs, just for the lens. Nikon is the same. Oly doesn't even
in this game, especially since they partnered up with Kodak. Nikon
thinks any lens they make that is as good as the D-7's lens is
worth twice what the D-7 is going for. Sony is the only company
with a shot at the D-7 this year, unless the 2mp consumer SLR
actually shows up for cheap, and will take some of the older glass.
I don't see that happening either. So far, I am right. Memory stick
kills the only competition this year, but about March of next year,
things will change.
would compare with the lens on the D-7 is worth more than the
D-7 costs, just for the lens. Nikon is the same. Oly doesn't even
in this game, especially since they partnered up with Kodak. Nikon
thinks any lens they make that is as good as the D-7's lens is
worth twice what the D-7 is going for. Sony is the only company
with a shot at the D-7 this year, unless the 2mp consumer SLR
actually shows up for cheap, and will take some of the older glass.
I don't see that happening either. So far, I am right. Memory stick
kills the only competition this year, but about March of next year,
things will change.
Tom Crowning
Veteran Member
Add me to your list. And BTW the Olympus 3040 lost (for me) because of Smartmedia.
tc
tc
jp52637
Senior Member
Hi Bob,
Can you tell me where you got that information?
Is it information you got from insiders or did you find it through the public channels.
I do believe you but I wonder how on earth the competitiion would admit such a thing in public.
Thanks
Jean Paul
MikeA
Senior Member
Interesting. As examples, could you name specific Canon and Nikon lenses that on the one hand 1) cost more than the D7 costs and that on the other hand 2) cost twice as much as the D7 costs?
Also, that you know of, were the lenses costing twice as much as the D7 already in production before the D7 was introduced, or did they appear only after the D7 was introduced? (Were they made for 35mm photography or were they designed expressly for use with digital cameras like the D30 or D1?)
As with the other fellow I would be interested to hear if this information about the companies' attitudes came to you by way of company insiders.
Also, that you know of, were the lenses costing twice as much as the D7 already in production before the D7 was introduced, or did they appear only after the D7 was introduced? (Were they made for 35mm photography or were they designed expressly for use with digital cameras like the D30 or D1?)
As with the other fellow I would be interested to hear if this information about the companies' attitudes came to you by way of company insiders.
Russell Bozian
Well-known member
********
I would agree with Bob Williams. It was easy to go to bhphotovideo.com and find listings like
Nikon Zoom...28-70mm f/2.8 D ED IF AF-S Auto Focus Lens $1320
Now we can quibble about details (for example there are Nikon 28-200 zooms that cost $500, but they are not F2.8, the lens listed here is merely 28-70mm instead of D7's 28 to 200mm, etc etc).
But if you're going to argue with Bob's point, do so by presenting us with a top-quality 28mm to 200mm F2.8 zoom lens, from a manufacturer that many of us respect, that sells for a lot less than a thousand dollars.
And it is an uncalled-for insult to the guy's argument to ask if he is a shady holder of "insider information". It's the kind of thing someone would say who feels argumentative, but doesn't have the facts to refute the original assertion. Anyone who disagrees that Nikon and Canon are trying to get us to pay over a thousand dollars for a 28-200 F2.8 zoom, or pay thousands of dollars to get their maximum quality imagers, should put up or shut up.
Tom Crowning
Veteran Member
Go to the Canon/Nikon homepage and look for the prizes of f/2.8 28 mm zoom lenses. Compare the quality of Minoltas 28-200mm lens to Canons 38-380mm IS lens (as used in Canons Powershot Pro90 and in Olympus C-2100).
Look for any(!) digital camera which offers 28mm and what you would have to pay for it.
tc
Look for any(!) digital camera which offers 28mm and what you would have to pay for it.
tc
jp52637
Senior Member
You shoukld not compare 35mm lens specs to Digital camreras.
It is true that the digicams require an optical quality that is as least as good as the better 35mm lenses, but the absolute amount of light they have to capture in order to have large max aperture is a far less.
A 28-200 2.8-3.5 lens, if at all feasable for 35mm, would probably weigh well over 2kg: imagine the cost if it were stuffed with AD and asperical lenses.
True, the minolta lens is a lot better, but then again, it is only 7x zoom, it is 3.5 at 200mm equivalent instead of 370 and it features no image stabilizing.
This all cuts the development and production cost too.
When the CCDs become larger, wide angle lenses become a little bit easier to develop.
I wonder why the new sony has sticked to the 35-190 since it uses the same 2/3" size. (and the E10 uses a 2/3" too I believe)
Could it be that the avarage consumer cam buyer is more impressed with tele range than with wide-angle range and that this was a marketing decision?
Or is it because wide angle convertors are easier to make and use than teleconvertors.
But it is true that at the moment, the D7 lens outshines everything else on the digicam market, and this is the main reason why I bought it and am very happy with it.
Jean Paul
Jack40001
Leading Member
I didn't read the review of a Sony camera yet, because they use Sony Memory Stickit. Just wait for brands that come with cameras that support CF I/II. I will enjoy the D7, as long as there's not anything more interesting for that price. (same features, (5.2^2/3.3=)8.2Mp?)
Jake.
Jake.
jp52637
Senior Member
I suppose this post was also intended as an answer to mine.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&page=1&message=1426306
I can hardly understand how the followng phrase can be interpreted as an insult
Is it information you got from insiders or did you find it through the public channels.
I do believe you but I wonder how on earth the competitiion would admit such a thing in public.
I never meant to imply that Bob Williams was lying.
I only found that if this information came from somewhere where I have access to it, I would be interesting for me to read the whole article.
If on the other hand, this is simply a personal technical deduction from him, then it can hardly seen as an insult if sombody wants to further discuss it rather than blindly accept it.
Crowning argumented along the same line of reasoning as you, he only formulated it a bit more politely.
I already replied to him and I invite you to read it too.
Kind regards,
Jean Paul
You do realize that a lot of the cost of these lenses comes from the AF systems, which are WORLDS superior to anything thus far stuck on the end of a consumer digicam ...
jp52637
Senior Member
Except for the AF-S lenses from Nikon and the EOS lenses, the AF mechanism of interchangeable lenses consists of nothing more than a few gears since in most camerras, the AF motor and intelligence is in the body.
jp52637
Senior Member
No 28mm?
No Microdrive?
No CF?
No Histogram?
No mechanical zoom?
No thanks!
Love the fast lens, nightshot feature and AF illuminator but they don't compensate the other shortcomings for me.
Will stay with the D7 until the DSC800 with 28-250 and CF comes out ;-))
No Microdrive?
No CF?
No Histogram?
No mechanical zoom?
No thanks!
Love the fast lens, nightshot feature and AF illuminator but they don't compensate the other shortcomings for me.
Will stay with the D7 until the DSC800 with 28-250 and CF comes out ;-))
Russell Bozian
Well-known member
******
My apologies, Jean Paul. I thought you were implyng that the strength of Bob William's argument (that compared to Nikon/Canon lenses the D7 is a good deal) rested on un-verifiable information. Instead you were merely asking where to learn more about pricing of Nikon and Canon lenses. Oops.
jp52637
Senior Member
Sorry for the misunderstanding Dr. Gonzo, I must have read over this.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Jean Paul
Giovanni
Forum Enthusiast
Reading the Phil review of new Sony in respect of D7
I like
1) The noise reduction system, very good
2) the full magnesium body
3) battery performance
4) 3 fps in burst
5) position of tripod mount
6) fast lenses
I don't like absolutely
1) the green cast cleaily visible on white and that make the cyan as "water green": these sony colour seem to me absolutely NOT accurate
2) memory stick: prices and maximum dimension
3) battery cost (I'm still considering the proprietary batteries as a nice cash cow - When we will see Li-Ion in standard format?)
4) shot to shot time too high
5) only 3 shots in burst
6) very limited white balance: big problems in some unusual light situations
7) Very limited possibility (in respect of D7) to customize the camera according to personal preferences
I'm not convinced:
1) how much is usefull the night vision
2) the quality of EVF (Phil said that 180.000 pixels capable of 1 colour are better than 71.000 cable of 3 colours but 180.000/3=60.000
3) the real retail price in Europe: the S85 now is selling at 1291 € VAT included Vs 800 US$ in USA VAT excluded; with these rates the F707 will cost 1613 € - the D7 is sold now at 1420 € VAT included.
4) battery recharging time
5) AF speed
6) price of 28 mm converter
7) if the hand grip dimension / sizes are the same as F505 I don't like it very much (too far away form a 35 mm feeling and way to hold it: when I tried I felt to be unconfortable - personal taste)
8) Autofocus accuracy IF similar to S85
One time more I agree 98% whit the Phil pro / cons in this review but one time more I don't agree with the conclusions based on the results (the points)
I like
1) The noise reduction system, very good
2) the full magnesium body
3) battery performance
4) 3 fps in burst
5) position of tripod mount
6) fast lenses
I don't like absolutely
1) the green cast cleaily visible on white and that make the cyan as "water green": these sony colour seem to me absolutely NOT accurate
2) memory stick: prices and maximum dimension
3) battery cost (I'm still considering the proprietary batteries as a nice cash cow - When we will see Li-Ion in standard format?)
4) shot to shot time too high
5) only 3 shots in burst
6) very limited white balance: big problems in some unusual light situations
7) Very limited possibility (in respect of D7) to customize the camera according to personal preferences
I'm not convinced:
1) how much is usefull the night vision
2) the quality of EVF (Phil said that 180.000 pixels capable of 1 colour are better than 71.000 cable of 3 colours but 180.000/3=60.000
3) the real retail price in Europe: the S85 now is selling at 1291 € VAT included Vs 800 US$ in USA VAT excluded; with these rates the F707 will cost 1613 € - the D7 is sold now at 1420 € VAT included.
4) battery recharging time
5) AF speed
6) price of 28 mm converter
7) if the hand grip dimension / sizes are the same as F505 I don't like it very much (too far away form a 35 mm feeling and way to hold it: when I tried I felt to be unconfortable - personal taste)
8) Autofocus accuracy IF similar to S85
One time more I agree 98% whit the Phil pro / cons in this review but one time more I don't agree with the conclusions based on the results (the points)
This is a pic of the new sony DSCF-707 which will be announced soon
at the IFA. Those holding off buying a D7 might want to see how the
707 compares (Like i'm going too).
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