--Is the SIGMA SD10 still a contender?

PalmsWestPhoto wrote:
snip

PalmsWestPhoto said:

It is just like other sensors are flawed too. Difference is most
people know and admit that there are flaws and learn to live with
it and work with them. SIgma users will kill before admitting
anything. Take a look at the sigma forum. It is hilarious how some
people lie through their teeth and treat people with questions in
there. Poor bunch i would say ...

Click to expand...

snip

PalmsWestPhoto said:

But i do get a chuckle out of you guys every once in a while

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

Click to expand...

Michael,

Condescension and "talking down" to people doesn't help at all to make your points.

It makes no sense at all to generalize about "Sigma Users" because we come from many different perspectives with many different skills and backgrounds. Statements such as you've made above only make you appear to be trolling.

Let the images speak for themselves - they do that very nicely. Post your very best work with your choice of equipment and let those whom you say "lie through their teeth" do likewise and let the readers decide whether your points are valid. Don't you think that's a fair way to settle this rather silly discussion?

Lin

PalmsWestPhoto said:

Jay

essentially you are just trying to dance around the issue

Click to expand...

That's outrageous. It is YOU who are not willing to look at specifics, and just want to keep throwing out your little negativities.

PalmsWestPhoto said:

The issue is that on screen as well as on print the stair stepping
is plainly visible.

Click to expand...

Were you at PMA or Photokina to see the big prints all around the Sigma booth? Sigma users helped Sigma make those to better illustrate the fine image structure of their photos, so people could see how they could compare with what the "big boys" showed. Sigma was the big winner by all reports. If stair stepping was an actual problem, it would have been commented on there, yet it was not.

Disclaimer: I wasn't there myself, but I've read lots of reports and reactions including in a magazine or two.

PalmsWestPhoto said:

It doesnt matter how much talk you produce it is there.

Click to expand...

No, only if you improperly upsize the image for printing or viewing.

j

PalmsWestPhoto said:

Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

Click to expand...

PalmsWestPhoto said:

essentially you are just trying to dance around the issue

Click to expand...

No. I'm being specific and supporting my assertions by example and reference. You, OTOH, are doing little more than repeating yourself, making technically inaccurate statements, and using the vague phrase "pixel level" as though it is some standard of reference.

PalmsWestPhoto said:

The issue is that on screen as well as on print the stair stepping
is plainly visible.

Click to expand...

Like I said, aliasing or "stairstepping" can be artifacts of the display method employed or they can be an artifact of the sampling done by the sensor. All too often, people confuse the former with the latter - which is why I brought the issue up.

PalmsWestPhoto said:

It doesnt matter how much talk you produce it is there.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how much you deny it, but people often misunderstand the nature of a pixel and the information it conveys and the implications of the various ways that its information is delivered. It's an important consideration with the sensor in the SD10 because there is no spatial interpolation in its "native" image size. But with CFA sensors, there is substantial interpolation already performed at their "native" sizes. So when looked at on a "pixel for pixel" basis, people who are more familiar with dealing with the interplated CFA images can easily find themselves jumping to wrong conclusions.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

Jay,

...one of PWP's infamous diatribes. From my previous experiences with him - he knows it all, will never budge an inch on one of his positions, resorts to negative personal inferences when backed into a corner and probably gets his inspiration from "above" (although as a concession to him, I've never seen him claim that - but one does get a certain feeling that...).

The guy obviously has next to zero experience with an SD-10. He looks at dumbed down images from PBase or some other photo posting site and carries on from there with his preconceived notions.

To his credit, I've seen some of his photos. He is an accomplished photographer in his area of expertise. Often an SD-10 would not be the best choice for him. He just seems unable to see beyond his perceived requirements and those of others. 'tis a shame.

CJ
--
http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/galleries

'May the best you've ever seen
Be the worst you'll ever see...'
from A Scots Toast by Robert Burns

PalmsWestPhoto said:

But of course i wouldnt expect anything else from a blind sigma
brand loyalist such as yourself

Click to expand...

and later:

PalmsWestPhoto said:

If i look at an image on screen at pixel level i dont use interpolation
as it is not nessecary. The stair stepping has nothing to do with how
you process the data for on screen viewing that is simply another try
to hide a flaw. It comes out in print as well. Of course next you will
probably blame the kind of printer i am using ...

Click to expand...

Mike,

We have been around the block a few times, so you know I am the blindest Sigma brand loyalist around. Have I got a deal for you!

Since you are so convinced of your POV, I am willing to put my money where your mouth is. I will send you an A0 print of this crappy shot screaming jaggies at every hair:

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/image/23823217

Your part of the deal is that you come back here and give us your honest opinion. As a neutral referee, I will ask Peter Hogg of Digital Pond to do the same, if you don't mind. Let's see where the pixel lates.

Do we have a deal? My dime (actually a bit more)! Shall I send it?

--
Laurence

There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Member said:

Let the images speak for themselves - they do that very nicely.
Post your very best work with your choice of equipment and let
those whom you say "lie through their teeth" do likewise and let
the readers decide whether your points are valid. Don't you think
that's a fair way to settle this rather silly discussion?

Click to expand...

You are right. There are lots of full resolution images available on personal galleries and on the review sights and people who are interested should just look for themselves. They should also consider printing a few as well. Programs like Qimage take some of the chore out of properly resampling prior to printing and offer some different and possibly better resampling algorithms as well.

Anyone interested in any digital camera should avail themselves of these great resources. There are, however, some limitation since these are usually JPEGs and not RAW files and you'll have to live with the sharpening decisions made by whoever did the RAW conversion. In one of the best examples I've found of legitimate SD10 aliasing problems, the images bigger problem is the heavy handed sharpening that was done in the RAW conversion.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

Lin

just go into the sigma forum and read some postings there. As soon as someone asks a normal question either about how the SD stacks up to other cameras or asks about know issues and how they effect people there is a bunch of fanatics screaming like somebody took their first newborn

Are all of them like that no of course not but quite a bunch and as i mentioned previously there is a reason for it ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

Laurence

this pic isnt actually that bad. The jaggies you see on your example are mostly from downsizing and disappear mostly when looked at at 100% allthough there are still some left.

There are much worse examples available in your own forum on a daily basis and i have printed some.

I would love to see an updated foveon sensor/camera. All it needs is a little more resolution, a lot more processing speed and some of the issues resolved such as low noise characteristics highlight color clipping issues and that stair stepping.

I dont understand why everyone gets so upset about the truth. All manufacturers have their issues with their products which is why they come out with newer ones which are made to be better then the previous one.

The only one that seems to be perfect from the start (as per sigma users) is the SD.

In addition to the sensor a in camera JPG processing engine and a camera that at least has the equivalent features of something at the level of a 20D would be good to. Not even asking about a pro body. slap on a canon mount and i'll buy one.

What i would like to see even more is foveon revolutionizing the professional/semi pro video camera market.

If foveon could replace 3CCD video camera chips it would be awesome. It would make these cameras a lot easier to make (no more prism to split the light, one single sensor) and with the binning it could also be used in consumer cams to allow high res for pictures and binned lower res with better low light response for video.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

JL

you are funny

Just Looking said:

Were you at PMA or Photokina to see the big prints all around the

Click to expand...

and then

Just Looking said:

Disclaimer: I wasn't there myself, but I've read lots of reports
and reactions including in a magazine or two.

Click to expand...

you are just kidding me right ? ...

Essentially all you are telling me here is that you know how to read a magazine - or two ? ...

really funny ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

Is there a larger version of this somewhere I could look at? Some might not like the "skin detail" and prefer a softer (typical model shot) look to the skin, but I like it. Seems more "real". Never thought much about the Sigma cameras until I saw this. It's from a Sigma SD10, right? Impressive

Thanks,

Steve

Well actually Mike, when you make a statement like this:

"No the stair stepping in foveon images often shows when printed at 8x10 and sometimes even below that. Some people just dont want to see it or do not mind digital artifacts like this."

I really cannot understand why you do not welcome this offer with open eyes. Afterall, if it shows up so obviously at A4, then at A0 they should be as plain as, well, jaggies. And since Peter has already seen this print twice, it is no problem for him to pipe in. Finally, I am pretty sure you will agree that his credentials are impeccable.

All you gotta do is say "send it" and agree to a degree of honesty in your evaluation. It is printed and ready to go.

--
Laurence

There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

For image quality, it certainly does condend. but since this forum is titled Pro Digital Talk, I was viewing it's status as a current professional camera. In the professional arena Sigma is not a factor. People talk about Nikon/Canon or Windows/Mac, or in the old days, Hasselblad/Mamiya/Bronica, but you'll never hear someone add Sigma to the Nikon/Canon mix. It's nice to have someone working with the excellent Foveon technology, and a larger capture would be great, but I don;t see too many pro considering Sigma as their next camera body.

Jon

Like I told Jay, wasting your breath.

j

Most likely. Postage too. Too bad for Mike. The ink is barely dry.

Just Looking said:

Like I told Jay, wasting your breath.

j

Click to expand...

--
Laurence

There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Three issues...

I've seen the 3D look from other cameras when the Hyperfocal Distance was set right with a wide angle lens...

The color of the SD10 is what kept me away from it because far too many people are having issues getting color that looks good enough to be realistic in anything but Sun Light.

The Resolution is nice but sadly no it doesn't stack up against Nikon's or Canon's best offerings in image quality and it really doesn't provide as nice an image as the low end Rebel XT.

--

'The probability that we may fall in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; it shall not deter me.' -- Abraham Lincoln

Pete,

Pete Perry said:

Three issues...

I've seen the 3D look from other cameras when the Hyperfocal
Distance was set right with a wide angle lens...

Click to expand...

So, who's going to shoot everthing with a wide angle lens when they manage to get the Hyperfocal Distance right on only? Give me a break! This is akin to an old hooker saying she was a virgin once.

Member said:

The color of the SD10 is what kept me away from it because far too
many people are having issues getting color that looks good enough
to be realistic in anything but Sun Light.

Click to expand...

Learn how to use it. My customers tell me that my color is the most realistic that they've seen. I certainly have no complaints. Now, if you're trying to get that "plasticky" look, well, that's another story. It can be achieved with upping the saturation, etc....

Member said:

The Resolution is nice but sadly no it doesn't stack up against
Nikon's or Canon's best offerings in image quality and it really
doesn't provide as nice an image as the low end Rebel XT.

Click to expand...

Let me know what you're smoking and where you buy it! lol. This response is so absurdly ingnorant...get a life.

Member said:

--
'The probability that we may fall in the struggle ought not to
deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; it
shall not deter me.' -- Abraham Lincoln

Click to expand...

Fond regards,

CJ

--
http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/galleries

'May the best you've ever seen
Be the worst you'll ever see...'
from A Scots Toast by Robert Burns

Pete Perry said:

Three issues...

I've seen the 3D look from other cameras when the Hyperfocal
Distance was set right with a wide angle lens...

The color of the SD10 is what kept me away from it because far too
many people are having issues getting color that looks good enough
to be realistic in anything but Sun Light.

The Resolution is nice but sadly no it doesn't stack up against
Nikon's or Canon's best offerings in image quality and it really
doesn't provide as nice an image as the low end Rebel XT.

Click to expand...

Hi Pete,

Do you care to post an image from your Rebel XT which it "doesn't provide as nice an image as" for comparison?

I think that would be a fair way to support your view. The interesting thing is that the SD10 images "stack up" wonderfully against all my Canon dSLR's (D30, 10D, 1D, 1D Mark II, 1DS) as well as against my Kodak DCS-760. I'm really interested in seeing an image from the Rebel XT which I don't have and haven't used for comparison. I think posting an image for comparison which could be viewed side by side with a similar frame from my SD10 might be interesting.

Best regards,

Lin

Steve Samuelson said:

Is there a larger version of this somewhere I could look at? Some
might not like the "skin detail" and prefer a softer (typical model
shot) look to the skin, but I like it. Seems more "real". Never
thought much about the Sigma cameras until I saw this. It's from a
Sigma SD10, right? Impressive

Thanks,

Steve

Click to expand...

THanks Steve. The SD9&10 are both impressive cameras, very impressive if I may so, under certain conditions. I've had a full version of that photo up for about a year and just removed it, so, shoot me an email to verify your interest in seeing it and I'll dig it up and email it to you.

Here are a couple more from that same shoot, all resized, but the same idea. I don't believe in extensive editing to remove the naturalness of photos.

Here are a few more from that shoot, and for fun, I've included another sd10 shot, a 10d shot, and a Sony 828 shot...

828



10d



sd10



--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366

• You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you want!
• Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.