D7 vs E-10

Bob,
I believe the topic is comparison between the D7 and the E-10. I
would hope E-10 owners are allowed to voice their opinion on this
topic.
Mike D
Nobody said that you or anyone else couldn't voice your opinions on this or any other forum. But when someone posts something that is untrue I call them on it.

And I still respectfully disagree with his appraisal of that particular comparison picture. I see little difference between the two and both are barely legible in my opinion. And the fact still remains that the E-10 pic was taken at a longer EFL than the D7 picture was..

Bob Dolson
 
I have no interest in "converting" you from Minolta. I am sure
Minolta is thrilled with your loyalty. My previous camera was an
Olympus, so I am not a Canon loyalist. If you are buying a self
contained consumer digicam the name on the body does not really
matter, unless you want to use an existing TTL flash system. It
would be nice to be able to reuse the same memory cards though.
I don't have any previous memory cards or existing TTL flash systems.
If you are buying an SLR (film or digital), I would recommend
either Canon or Nikon. Buying an SLR because of the body's feature
set is stupid.
The D7 is not a SLR. And you can keep your opinion about the stupidity of buying a camera for its feature set to yourself. I don't believe that I have called you stupid, and would appreciate it if you would not call my buying habits stupid. The features of the camera are exactly why I am buying it.
The system of lenses available is the most important
thing. Canon and Nilkon have the best range and availabilty of
lenses. Contax has nice lenses but they are very expensive and
their range is very limited. So unless you are very rich, no I
would not suggest a Contax.
Obviously, the system of lenses does not have anything to do with the D7. This forum was created for people who own or possibly want to purchase the D7 or D5 - or did that slip by you? I still haven't figured out why you have so many posts here, unless it's to discourage every potential D7 buyer.
You Trica might want to at least check out the Oly E-10, unless of
course you will only buy something that says Minolta.
My name is Tricia, not Trica. Since you're a former Oly owner, I'm sure Oly is "thrilled with YOUR loyalty". I did check out the E-10, and decided on the D7. I have also seen some of your posts in the Oly forum - telling them how much better your D30 is.

I have researched carefully in my search for a camera that I can afford that has most of the features that will make me satisfied with my purchase for several years. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing missing in the D7 is a lithium-ion battery - actually, my preference would be a battery like the Sony Info-Lithium, which tells you to-the-minute charge left and holds its charge without having to be left in a trickle-charger.

So, please, Andrew - get out of my face and let me enjoy looking forward to my purchase.
 
Opinions are just that, opinions. I read Andrews and then yours, then took both with a grain of salt. My comment was concerning your remark "Now get on back to your Oly forum before they realize that you're gone!". I hardly recognize that as a respectful statement.

I am interested in the D7 for my wife. I am not here to bash the D7. In all honesty, I see by far more bashing of cameras in this forum then the other forums, and the camera is barely on the market.

I will wait for its US release and insure the results are good enough. The D7 is lighter and smaller then my E-10, which is what I am interested in for her. The picture quality appears to be as good as my E-10 and that is one requirement that she has.

I could care less if the D7 is perceived to be better then this camera or that. I want one that she can learn, manipulate, take the type of photographs that she has in her mind and then show the results. She has seen my work from the E-10 and that is what she will compare her new cameras photos to. So far, I believe that D7 can produce this kind of quality photos.

Now ... before anything gets blown out, my E-10 is far from perfect. It has its own idiosyncrasies yet I have learned them. The E-10 has some problems but nothing that can not be overcome with practice (i.e. the auto white balance can produce washed whites as in the photographs in this thread. If you manually set the WB, the whites are much more normal looking). For me, I wouldn't trade the E-10 for too many other cameras (well, maybe a D1X if they could fix the dust problem).

All in all, what I am trying to say, everyone appears to be way too defensive in this forum defending the D7 and hardly anyone has them. I find ignoring the illiterate, take other opinions with a grain of salt and try to enjoy photography the best practice. That's all.
Good luck,
Mike D
 
I have no interest in "converting" you from Minolta. I am sure
Minolta is thrilled with your loyalty. My previous camera was an
Olympus, so I am not a Canon loyalist. If you are buying a self
contained consumer digicam the name on the body does not really
matter, unless you want to use an existing TTL flash system. It
would be nice to be able to reuse the same memory cards though.
I don't have any previous memory cards or existing TTL flash systems.
I wasn't suggesting that you did.
If you are buying an SLR (film or digital), I would recommend
either Canon or Nikon. Buying an SLR because of the body's feature
set is stupid.
The D7 is not a SLR. And you can keep your opinion about the
stupidity of buying a camera for its feature set to yourself. I
don't believe that I have called you stupid, and would appreciate
it if you would not call my buying habits stupid. The features of
the camera are exactly why I am buying it.
Of course the D7 is not an SLR. Why do you think I am calling you stupid Tricia. Since you are not buying an SLR the above comment could not apply to you could it?
The system of lenses available is the most important
thing. Canon and Nilkon have the best range and availabilty of
lenses. Contax has nice lenses but they are very expensive and
their range is very limited. So unless you are very rich, no I
would not suggest a Contax.
Obviously, the system of lenses does not have anything to do with
the D7.
Well of course not!
This forum was created for people who own or possibly want
to purchase the D7 or D5 - or did that slip by you? I still haven't
figured out why you have so many posts here, unless it's to
discourage every potential D7 buyer.
Does the fact that a D7 is no match for a digital SLR discourage you then.

The reason I post here is that so many potential D7 buyers seem to want to compare it to various digital SLRs. I recently made the switch myself from consumer digicam to SLR, so I feel well informed on the subject.
You Trica might want to at least check out the Oly E-10, unless of
course you will only buy something that says Minolta.
My name is Tricia, not Trica. Since you're a former Oly owner, I'm
sure Oly is "thrilled with YOUR loyalty". I did check out the E-10,
and decided on the D7. I have also seen some of your posts in the
Oly forum - telling them how much better your D30 is.
I really don't care what they think. If I were you I would wait for Phil's review though.
I have also seen some of your posts in the
Oly forum - telling them how much better your D30 is.
Many E-10 owners like to compare their camera to the D30. Not sure why but I do what I can to oblige.
I have researched carefully in my search for a camera that I can
afford that has most of the features that will make me satisfied
with my purchase for several years. As far as I'm concerned, the
only thing missing in the D7 is a lithium-ion battery - actually,
my preference would be a battery like the Sony Info-Lithium, which
tells you to-the-minute charge left and holds its charge without
having to be left in a trickle-charger.
Since all the reviews are not in yet, I am not sure how you could have completed your research.
So, please, Andrew - get out of my face and let me enjoy looking
forward to my purchase.
I was not aware I was in your face. As I recall, I was discussing the D30 imager with someone else. Why does everything have to be about you Tricia. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read my posts.
 
Andrew Grant wrote:
If you don't like what I have to say, don't read
my posts.
Believe me, if this forum had an ignore button I would use it.
However, pressing "Next" all too often puts me in contact with your
posts.
Try selecting the posts directly. You should be able to avoid me that way. I am surprised though that you respond to my posts if you wish to ignore me.
 
This forum was created for people who own or possibly want
to purchase the D7 or D5 - or did that slip by you? I still haven't
figured out why you have so many posts here, unless it's to
discourage every potential D7 buyer.
Does the fact that a D7 is no match for a digital SLR discourage
you then.
Of course it is. It beats the SLRs on price, weight, convenience, design, and certain aspects of performance (e.g. resolution). It loses to the SLRs on other aspects of performance (noise) and features (focussing screen). Different people have different priorities, and for most of the folks interested in the D7, its at the top end of their budgets and or weight range. The SLRs just don't meet our requirements.
The reason I post here is that so many potential D7 buyers seem to
want to compare it to various digital SLRs. I recently made the
switch myself from consumer digicam to SLR, so I feel well informed
on the subject.
That you have the deep pockets and the strong back to purchase and lug one of those makes you rather badly qualified. The whole game in consumer digital cameras is how well you can do for the cost and weight. Furthermore, given a camera that meets his/her primary concerns, a good workman doesn't use it's weak points as an excuse, but learns how to get the most from it's strong points.

The D7 has more pixels in the vertical direction than the pro SLRs, and more noise. How do we get the most from the pixels while preventing noise from becoming a problem? You don't have to touch the threshold setting in Photoshop's Unsharp Mask, but we do. We need to be more careful of our exposures.

Anyway, when someone comes out with a reasonably priced OM-1 size/weight full-frame sensor 35mm body, come back and talk to us about it.

Meanwhile, the issue here is how well Minolta has done at redefining the small-sensor digital camera. If it turns out they failed, it will have nothing to do do with the D30/D1x, and everything to do with the D7 itself, and how it fits in between the S85/4040 and the E-10.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
how it fits in between the S85/4040 and the E-10.
Very simple, it fits abobe them both.
RAW file says it all.

Vic

David J. Littleboy
This forum was created for people who own or possibly want
to purchase the D7 or D5 - or did that slip by you? I still haven't
figured out why you have so many posts here, unless it's to
discourage every potential D7 buyer.
Does the fact that a D7 is no match for a digital SLR discourage
you then.
Of course it is. It beats the SLRs on price, weight, convenience,
design, and certain aspects of performance (e.g. resolution). It
loses to the SLRs on other aspects of performance (noise) and
features (focussing screen). Different people have different
priorities, and for most of the folks interested in the D7, its at
the top end of their budgets and or weight range. The SLRs just
don't meet our requirements.
The reason I post here is that so many potential D7 buyers seem to
want to compare it to various digital SLRs. I recently made the
switch myself from consumer digicam to SLR, so I feel well informed
on the subject.
That you have the deep pockets and the strong back to purchase and
lug one of those makes you rather badly qualified. The whole game
in consumer digital cameras is how well you can do for the cost and
weight. Furthermore, given a camera that meets his/her primary
concerns, a good workman doesn't use it's weak points as an excuse,
but learns how to get the most from it's strong points.

The D7 has more pixels in the vertical direction than the pro SLRs,
and more noise. How do we get the most from the pixels while
preventing noise from becoming a problem? You don't have to touch
the threshold setting in Photoshop's Unsharp Mask, but we do. We
need to be more careful of our exposures.

Anyway, when someone comes out with a reasonably priced OM-1
size/weight full-frame sensor 35mm body, come back and talk to us
about it.

Meanwhile, the issue here is how well Minolta has done at
redefining the small-sensor digital camera. If it turns out they
failed, it will have nothing to do do with the D30/D1x, and
everything to do with the D7 itself, and how it fits in between the
S85/4040 and the E-10.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
Did you see this
site? http://www.okimoto.ne.jp/muray/Lab/Work6/e10di7.html

You can compare D7 with E-10.
Well, I've been happily capturing wonderful pictures and memories for months on my E-10. Not wanting to say anything else other than if you can get a camera you like, get it, use it, share the pics, enjoy them. I'm of the opinion that the differences are getting so small that it's like listening to audiophile snobs. Print some 8x10s out, if you like them and friends and family like them (I guarandamntee you that they don't give a crap which camera you use or can even tell the difference) then it's all good. I'm still running up against people that own point and shoot 35mm that fully insist that digital is dumb. Go figure! I had the pleasure of shooting big cats today with a proud D1X user. Whatta camera! We had a great time and his pictures are better than mine. My car is nicer than his though :) Ya gots ta know your priorities!!!
 
This forum was created for people who own or possibly want
to purchase the D7 or D5 - or did that slip by you? I still haven't
figured out why you have so many posts here, unless it's to
discourage every potential D7 buyer.
Does the fact that a D7 is no match for a digital SLR discourage
you then.
Of course it is. It beats the SLRs on price, weight, convenience,
No arguement here.
design, and certain aspects of performance (e.g. resolution).
Have to disagree with you. All the SLRs are ergomically superior to the D7 and have a proper optical TTL viewfinder. The D7 has a higher pixel count than most of the SLRs. That does not guarantee a higher resolution though. Issues of lens quality and noise can substantially effect resolution.
It
loses to the SLRs on other aspects of performance (noise) and
features (focussing screen). Different people have different
priorities, and for most of the folks interested in the D7, its at
the top end of their budgets and or weight range. The SLRs just
don't meet our requirements.
Cost is probably the biggest issue.
The reason I post here is that so many potential D7 buyers seem to
want to compare it to various digital SLRs. I recently made the
switch myself from consumer digicam to SLR, so I feel well informed
on the subject.
That you have the deep pockets and the strong back to purchase and
lug one of those makes you rather badly qualified. The whole game
in consumer digital cameras is how well you can do for the cost and
weight. Furthermore, given a camera that meets his/her primary
concerns, a good workman doesn't use it's weak points as an excuse,
but learns how to get the most from it's strong points.
Deep pockets perhaps, as to a strong back the D30 isn't that large or heavy.In fact for many people it is two small. Most owners have purchased the portrait grip which makes it bigger and heavier. Given the tiny CCDs it isn't very hard to built a light consumer camera or an inexpensive one. What makes the SLRs expensive is the large sensors (the D30 sensor apparently costs about $1400), and good quality glass.
The D7 has more pixels in the vertical direction than the pro SLRs,
and more noise. How do we get the most from the pixels while
preventing noise from becoming a problem? You don't have to touch
the threshold setting in Photoshop's Unsharp Mask, but we do. We
need to be more careful of our exposures.
In my experiance, noise is a huge problem with the consumer digicams. It reduces image detail, forces one to use low ISO settings, and limits how much sharpening can be done to an image. Having to use low ISO settings in many instances forces the use of flash or a tripod. Neither is always practical. A noisy image cannot be sharpened using a low radius value in PS because you will be shapening the noise. High radius sharpening tends to create problems of its own such as halos and jaggies. Trying to remove noise also removes detail.

You are correct about exposure lattitude. On all digital cameras, if you over expose, all detail is lost. The low noise SLRs do allow you to underexpose a couple of stops without serious noise problems or loss of detail. This is important when trying to photograph a high contrast scene. You can expose for the highlights which will underexpose the shadows. They can then be recovered in Photoshop. Yes you can bracket but that requires a tripod and a subject that is not moving.
Anyway, when someone comes out with a reasonably priced OM-1
size/weight full-frame sensor 35mm body, come back and talk to us
about it.
Full frame may take a while but Canon is rumoured to be announcing a "Digital Rebel" for around $1000-$1500. It will probably be small and light but will only have 2.1MP. Not enough for you I am sure.
Meanwhile, the issue here is how well Minolta has done at
redefining the small-sensor digital camera. If it turns out they
failed, it will have nothing to do do with the D30/D1x, and
everything to do with the D7 itself, and how it fits in between the
S85/4040 and the E-10.
I thought the issue was how well it compared in image quality to the SLRs. I don't think I ever suggested that its performance would not be good relative to the S85/404 or E-10. I think "redefine" would be an exaggeration, but it ought to compete successfully. It is the first camera to use Sony's 5MP sensor, but I am sure it will not be the last.
 
... All the SLRs are ergomically superior to the D7 ...
I can conclude from this statement that:

1. You have hands-on experience with all SLRs as well as the D7 and you know everyone's ergonomic needs.

or...

2. #1 is not true and so your credibility is questionable.
... and have a proper optical TTL viewfinder ...
But where is the LCD preview? For some people, their work or visual impairment REQUIRES LCD preview.
The reason I post here is that so many potential D7 buyers seem to
want to compare it to various digital SLRs. I recently made the
switch myself from consumer digicam to SLR, so I feel well informed
on the subject.
Was the consumer digicam a D7? I didn't think so. You are not as well informed as you feel.
... A noisy image cannot be sharpened
using a low radius value in PS because you will
be shapening the noise. High radius sharpening tends to create
problems of its own such as halos and jaggies ...
Who would want to use sharpening? I shut off sharpening on my Oly 3030 the day I got it. The camera is plenty sharp without it. Oh... I get it... you have a Canon D30.

Hugo
http://hugomartinez.com
 
Have to disagree with you. All the SLRs are ergomically superior to
the D7 and have a proper optical TTL viewfinder. The D7 has a
higher pixel count than most of the SLRs. That does not guarantee a
higher resolution though. Issues of lens quality and noise can
substantially effect resolution.
You sound like a digital SLR owner who is intimidated by the fact that the D7 might be superior to your very expensive digital SLR(s) in some respects.

In what way would an SLR be 'ergonomically superior' to the D7? Since you haven't actually held a D7, etc, I don't see how you can make such a comment on it's ergonomics.

And your 'proper TTL viewfinder' should really be referred to as a 'traditional TTL viewfinder'. I believe that neither is more 'proper' than the other, but the EVF used in the D7/D5 may in fact be more 'proper' (superior) to a TTL viewfinder in some respects. One such respect is the display of the 'flex focus point', which would be very difficult if not impossible to do with a TTL viewfinder. Another respect is in low light, in which traditional TTL viewfinders are lots of times less than satisfactory. Yet another aspect is the fact that much more information about the shooting parameters can be displayed in an EVF compared to a 'proper TTL viewfinder)..

Bob Dolson
 
Hugo,

In your answer to to Andrew you have one point "the live LCD preview"

which is for me one of the reasons (beside others like flex focus etc.) to buy the D7 (if the upcoming review of Phil won't disqualify it).

I already have the D30 and want to use the D7 as a kind of "to take everywhere cam".

Regards,

Andreas
 
But where is the LCD preview? For some people, their work or visual > impairment REQUIRES LCD preview.
I couldn't agree more:-)

Some time ago I returned a Canon EOS 5 and bought a Minolta 9xi because I wasn't able to see the exposure/aperture in the Canon viewfinder ( magnification wasn't big enough for me and eye relief wasn't satisfactory). Unfortunately my eyes aren't that good...

So I hope the live preview LCD will do the trick for me.

Reinhard
 
Have to disagree with you. All the SLRs are ergomically superior to
the D7 and have a proper optical TTL viewfinder. The D7 has a
higher pixel count than most of the SLRs. That does not guarantee a
higher resolution though. Issues of lens quality and noise can
substantially effect resolution.
You sound like a digital SLR owner who is intimidated by the fact
that the D7 might be superior to your very expensive digital SLR(s)
in some respects.

In what way would an SLR be 'ergonomically superior' to the D7?
Since you haven't actually held a D7, etc, I don't see how you can
make such a comment on it's ergonomics.

And your 'proper TTL viewfinder' should really be referred to as a
'traditional TTL viewfinder'. I believe that neither is more
'proper' than the other, but the EVF used in the D7/D5 may in fact
be more 'proper' (superior) to a TTL viewfinder in some respects.
One such respect is the display of the 'flex focus point', which
would be very difficult if not impossible to do with a TTL
viewfinder. Another respect is in low light, in which traditional
TTL viewfinders are lots of times less than satisfactory. Yet
another aspect is the fact that much more information about the
shooting parameters can be displayed in an EVF compared to a
'proper TTL viewfinder)..

Bob Dolson
Exactly! It’s perfectly reasonable to expect EVF technology to surpass optical TTL viewfinders in all or most respects, and we may be getting very close to that day.
 
... All the SLRs are ergomically superior to the D7 ...
I can conclude from this statement that:

1. You have hands-on experience with all SLRs as well as the D7 and
you know everyone's ergonomic needs.
I have used several film SLRs and one digital SLR. They are all very similar.
or...

2. #1 is not true and so your credibility is questionable.
... and have a proper optical TTL viewfinder ...
But where is the LCD preview? For some people, their work or
visual impairment REQUIRES LCD preview.
I never found them that useful. Certainly not useful enough to pay the price of an EVF or beam splitter.
The reason I post here is that so many potential D7 buyers seem to
want to compare it to various digital SLRs. I recently made the
switch myself from consumer digicam to SLR, so I feel well informed
on the subject.
Was the consumer digicam a D7? I didn't think so. You are not as
well informed as you feel.
In terms of noise, they are all pretty much the same.
... A noisy image cannot be sharpened
using a low radius value in PS because you will
be shapening the noise. High radius sharpening tends to create
problems of its own such as halos and jaggies ...
Who would want to use sharpening? I shut off sharpening on my Oly
3030 the day I got it. The camera is plenty sharp without it.
Oh... I get it... you have a Canon D30.
Actually my old consumer digicam was a C3000. You cannot turn off sharpening completely on those cameras. I have turned off sharpening on my D30. If you are not sharpening before printing, you prints are not as good as they could be.
 
Have to disagree with you. All the SLRs are ergomically superior to
the D7 and have a proper optical TTL viewfinder. The D7 has a
higher pixel count than most of the SLRs. That does not guarantee a
higher resolution though. Issues of lens quality and noise can
substantially effect resolution.
You sound like a digital SLR owner who is intimidated by the fact
that the D7 might be superior to your very expensive digital SLR(s)
in some respects.

In what way would an SLR be 'ergonomically superior' to the D7?
Since you haven't actually held a D7, etc, I don't see how you can
make such a comment on it's ergonomics.

And your 'proper TTL viewfinder' should really be referred to as a
'traditional TTL viewfinder'. I believe that neither is more
'proper' than the other, but the EVF used in the D7/D5 may in fact
be more 'proper' (superior) to a TTL viewfinder in some respects.
One such respect is the display of the 'flex focus point', which
would be very difficult if not impossible to do with a TTL
viewfinder. Another respect is in low light, in which traditional
TTL viewfinders are lots of times less than satisfactory. Yet
another aspect is the fact that much more information about the
shooting parameters can be displayed in an EVF compared to a
'proper TTL viewfinder)..

Bob Dolson
Exactly! It’s perfectly reasonable to expect EVF technology
to surpass optical TTL viewfinders in all or most respects, and we
may be getting very close to that day.
Actually it isn't reasonable at all. They may become better in low light situations but there will always be some quality loss.
 
This cannot be predicted with any accuracy. The technology is in its infancy, still. Don't forget that the CEO (or some other high-level manager) of IBM once declared that the world would never need more than 3 or 4 computers; and Bill Gates once declared that nobody would ever need more than 640K of RAM. Such predictions (including, methnks, your own) have a way of being shown to be quite wrong, the reason being people's unending drive to make things better . They always have, and they always will.

How "quality" is defined (as in "quality loss," below) might well change over time. For instance, given super-bright EVF of the future, I'll bet many users will easily accept small losses of image quality in the viewfinder in trade for the benefits. And when I say "small" I am assuming there will be substantial improvements in this technology. The D7 (which, lemme remind you, neither of us has yet seen) might well demonstrate a significant improvement in EVF technology. We'll all find out soon enough.

I'm not willing to believe yet that EVFs will surpass optical viewfinders. I don't think any categorical statement concerning "quality" is sensible just now. How "quality" is defined will surely change over time as people weigh the benefits of viewing through EVFs versus viewing through optical viewfinders. If a particular EVF system ends up being far more useful to a given user than an optical viewfinder, his standard of "quality" will likely be much different from your own. And neither of you will be either right or wrong...
Exactly! It’s perfectly reasonable to expect EVF technology
to surpass optical TTL viewfinders in all or most respects, and we
may be getting very close to that day.
Actually it isn't reasonable at all. They may become better in low
light situations but there will always be some quality loss.
 

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