whcc.com paper change

Andrew Marshall said:

You speak of monitor calibration. I may sound loony now, but hear
this: it is my opinion that you should not rely on your monitor as
a guide to accurate printing anymore than you used the LCD on the
back of your digicam in the field as a guide to accurate exposure.

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You are right. You are "loony" and obviously have some reading to do regarding color management. Hey, if things work for you and you are getting acceptable results, more power to you. However, some people require more control of the final output. Profiles provide this...whether or not you use them is up to you.

It always seems to come down to the personal attacks, even if trying to sound as if in jest, when there are disagreements of this sort.

Even when folks make decent points, it loses credibility for them and ultimately for their business because it gets carried over into business.

Glad you're both having success in one way or another.

Joe Wilson said:

You are right. You are "loony" and obviously have some reading to
do regarding color management.

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--

Ulysses

I hardly consider that a personal attack.

And I'm not reallly sure what you mean by "it gets carried over into business."

Ulysses said:

Even when folks make decent points, it loses credibility for them
and ultimately for their business because it gets carried over into
business.

Glad you're both having success in one way or another.

Joe Wilson said:

You are right. You are "loony" and obviously have some reading to
do regarding color management.

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--

Ulysses

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--
http://www.joesimages.com

Joe Wilson said:

And I'm not reallly sure what you mean

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Forget about it.

At least you have something that works well for you. That's what's really important.

--

Ulysses

to each his own I guess. :S

Ulysses said:

Joe Wilson said:

And I'm not reallly sure what you mean

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Forget about it.

At least you have something that works well for you. That's what's
really important.

--

Ulysses

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--
http://www.joesimages.com

Joe Wilson said:

to each his own I guess. :S

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Isn't that the way it always is?

But on a totally different topic, I meant to ask in another thread, but this is as good a place as almost any other.

How did things go for that portrait session of the family with the golden retriever. That was a really nice shot. Did you get to work on the things that you wanted in that shot?

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Ulysses

After reading many of the responses both here and on the 'other' thread, things are much clearer.

Is this correct?

WHCC has several types of printers, and they are all calibrated to match each other as closely as the intrinsic characteristics of the printers allow them to be.

sRGB is the defacto standard for image storage, hence it makes sense to require the files in that color space.

Your printers assume that they are receiving an image with an sRGB color space, and the printers already have profiles individually assigned at WHCC for the sRGB files. The printers don't use sRGB themselves, they just assume that all files are sRGB and adjust all of them as necessary.

If we want to see what we can truly expect from your printers, we need a profile to view the image on our monitor, since the capabilities of your printers are different from the sRGB color space. That profile is for viewing only, but should never be applied in any way to the output file.

I personally found this thread very entertaining... specially when I learned that I don't need a calibrated monitor, since I should not be adjusting photos with my eyes... I should use numbers instead. Wow, silly me... I've been trying to see what I'm doing with my photos...

Truth is... this whole color space thing is very complicated. Look at the confusion just within this thread... amongst knowledgeable (???) users. I don't blame WHCC at all for their 'sRGB only' policy, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. As is, the output that I have received from WHCC has been exceptionally good, the prices are unbeatable and the service is the best around. I will continue to use WHCC (if I'm still welcome there after opening this thread.), and I recommend them to everyone that asks about getting good prints (only to have them immediately ask me if WHCC has profiles available!) I will also be asking WHCC for the soft profile, because I do have items that tend to go out of gamut, and I need to be able to see that in advance.

Chris Hanline said:

unbound said:

Things that I think would make WHCC even better:

a) 8x12 prints.

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We offer 8x12s. There not on the price list because we have to
print them on a 10x12 and trim them. Thus they cost a bit more then
a 8x10. Even if we didn't offer them you could always manually put
them on a larger print size. This may change in the coming year.

Chris Hanline said:

b) Profiles. Why are there no profiles available? I think that WHCC
is incredibly good, but most of the people that I have recommended
it to will not even try it (I'm talking dozens of people), because
there are no profiles, and in the 'pro' circles, profiles are
mandatory because that's what's expected from a pro shop.

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Your order could get printed on one of 4 machines. If you want,
we'll email the profiles to anybody, but we're not going to support
your workflow like that. We can and do shift work from Frontier to
Frontier and even to a completely different type of machine (Durst
Theta) for production purposes. We convert to that specific
machines profile on the fly before its printed for you. The Fuji
PIC Pro software doesn't read embedded profiles, so you'll only be
able to soft proof, and hope your order gets printed on the machine
whose profile you used. Saving your files in the printers color
space will cause your files to get the profile 'double applied', as
the Fuji software will read your file as if it is sRGB.

Not to turn this into a color management debate, as we're very much
aware of the benefits of having the actual output profiles, but we
have an awful lot of clients who get fantastic results day in and
day out just by keeping things in sRGB.

Again, if you want the profiles just email me and I'll send them
your way.

Chris Hanline
WHCC

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Okay, but before we leave that last topic. Sorry if I came off a bit cross in that last post...I just get touchy at the "color management misinformation" that gets tossed around here. I should be in a better mood, the Rams clinched the NFC West today anyway. Woohoo!

Yeah, it went okay. I'm still trying to work on lighting technique so trying to get two adults, one toddler, and a dog to pose, look at the camera in synch. is a little bit more than I want to have to deal with right now.

I'm working in my basement so space is at a premium. It is hard to get full length shots...it just happens that there is a load bearing pole right in between me and the camera on most shots. If it weren't there, I'd have LOTS of room. I need to rearrange things down there to try and get more room eventually but so little time...with the real job from 8 to 7 each day.

I am shooting another friend this week...it is a mother and her 3 month old child. This one should be a bit easier. I have a two month old, so I'm an expert in posing them by now.

Ulysses said:

Joe Wilson said:

to each his own I guess. :S

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Isn't that the way it always is?

But on a totally different topic, I meant to ask in another thread,
but this is as good a place as almost any other.

How did things go for that portrait session of the family with the
golden retriever. That was a really nice shot. Did you get to work
on the things that you wanted in that shot?

--

Ulysses

Click to expand...

--
http://www.joesimages.com

Joe Wilson said:

Okay, but before we leave that last topic. Sorry if I came off a
bit cross in that last post...I just get touchy at the "color
management misinformation" that gets tossed around here. I should
be in a better mood, the Rams clinched the NFC West today anyway.
Woohoo!

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Honestly, it's no biggie. As soon as I'd posted my fat couple of lines, I was sorry I'd done it. Every photo forum I attend has its occasional debates over color management. Some 10% of what is written is useful, and the rest just gets into endless debate. I didn't even want to get involved in that aspect of the thread. So, I was just as content to just leave it alone. Besides, I'd rather just work with the system outlined by whatever photolab I choose. Results are all that matter.

And besides, the Saints won tonight, too!!! hahahahah... So you and I both have reasons to be happy tonight.

Joe Wilson said:

Yeah, it went okay. I'm still trying to work on lighting technique
so trying to get two adults, one toddler, and a dog to pose, look
at the camera in synch. is a little bit more than I want to have to
deal with right now.

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I was looking at the entire series there at your pbase gallery. I was smiling at the challenge you must have had there. Everyone looks just great. But the problem of everyone nearly every time looking in every which direction. Heheheh... must have been either maddening or else too funny for words.

Joe Wilson said:

I'm working in my basement so space is at a premium. It is hard to
get full length shots...it just happens that there is a load
bearing pole right in between me and the camera on most shots. If
it weren't there, I'd have LOTS of room.

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Seems for this set, however, that you managed the spacing quite well. In fact, for this one, the only significant comment that kept coming up in common was that the dad needed to be closer to everyone else. So it could in fact have been a tighter family space there. Interesting, and perhaps encouraging to you.

--

Ulysses

Looking forward to hearing if you receive improved results and, if any, what the specifics were that changed for the better (or for the worse...).

unbound said:

I will also be asking WHCC for the soft
profile, because I do have items that tend to go out of gamut, and
I need to be able to see that in advance.

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--

Ulysses

granted, I feel that I provide my customers with a quality product and would never settle for anything less.

Ulysses said:

Sorry to hear about your story. I can't say whether or not it's
relatively a uniquely poor experience or not. But I appreciate your
comments. I'm sure that you simply want to receive good product for
the sake of your own reputation and for your customers'
satisfaction.

Phil Vouers said:

The long and the short of it was I have been in this biz for
20years and have worked with pro labs always.

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--

Ulysses

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--
Phil Vouers
Professional Photographer
http://www.goochs.com

its quality.

Shay Stephens said:

Anyone notice they changed the paper they are using from the fuji
professional paper to just the regular crystal archive? Very
disappointing, the paper was one of the reasons I liked using whcc.
I called them, they said Fuji changed their paper. I am hoping
enough photographers will complain to get them to switch back to
the professional paper.

If it bugs you, let them know about about it (politely of course
hehehe)

--
Shay
http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

'Cameras are not artists, photographers are.'

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MPIX is the consumer division of Miller's. I had a couple of 11x14 prints on MPIX's metallic paper before WHCC began offering it but have to say, both were mounted terribly and since they don't use ftp connections, I had to use the super slow Explorer browser since they don't support other browsers. Just wasn't too impressed.

Kind Regards
-Billie

michael said:

Shay Stephens said:

Anyone notice they changed the paper they are using from the fuji
professional paper to just the regular crystal archive? Very
disappointing, the paper was one of the reasons I liked using whcc.
I called them, they said Fuji changed their paper. I am hoping
enough photographers will complain to get them to switch back to
the professional paper.

If it bugs you, let them know about about it (politely of course
hehehe)

--
Shay
http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

'Cameras are not artists, photographers are.'

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I agree with you about slow uploading. I have never tried 11x14 from mpix.com yet, but I am satisfied with 8x10 (color, papers,and etc.)

Billie said:

Kind Regards
-Billie

michael said:

Shay Stephens said:

Anyone notice they changed the paper they are using from the fuji
professional paper to just the regular crystal archive? Very
disappointing, the paper was one of the reasons I liked using whcc.
I called them, they said Fuji changed their paper. I am hoping
enough photographers will complain to get them to switch back to
the professional paper.

If it bugs you, let them know about about it (politely of course
hehehe)

--
Shay
http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

'Cameras are not artists, photographers are.'

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--
JLC
MyWorld Studios - Madison,MS