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Help! Apple Mac - The Pro's choice? or not?

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Knox / streetkid said:
laugh . .
I thought u said Mac II. ;)

yep, I had PowerPrint a long time ago . . .wasn't the best company
support in the world.
Click to expand...
No they weren't.

Now in fairness, my wife uses Photoshop to create art, not just touch up photos. It is common for her to work with 500MB+ PSD files. So she works the computer out pretty heavily. But also, those files work fine on both my PC and her mac.

danh
Knox / streetkid said:
danh said:
Knox / streetkid said:
Did you say . . . a Mac II !!!!! smile
I would think it would crash! It's 15 year old technology and has
VERY little ram as they couldn't hold much. Macs can use PC
printers now.
Click to expand...
No it is a G5 with OS 10.2. And yes even OSX can crash.

And it won't printer to my laserprinter. It is PCL only. Does not
support postscript. I used to have this Powerprint print server
that worked when the mac was using OS9. But like everything else
in the Mac world, there was no support for it when OSX came out.

danh
Knox / streetkid said:
danh said:
Apparently my post was too long, so i Split it up.

Some real world differences I have encountered with myself, my
network, and my wife's work.
1. Our network is mostly compatible. Macs have native support for
Windows networking. Windows does not have natvie support for Mac
networking. My wife's mac can see my computers but I cannot
connect to hers.

2. My wife cannot print to my printer, but I can use hers.

3. The primary publisher my wife works with is mostly Windows
based. They run into odd problems from time to time (Stuffit?
Can't you Winzip it instead?). Nothing is a deal breaker tho, but
sometimes the differences in the way the OS's handle files causes
confusion.

4. My wife uses no antivirus or spyware. This is an issue. Not
one that MAc's are "better" or Windows is "worse". But Windows IS
a BIGGER TARGET.

5. There are times my wife gets on my computer to go to certain
parts of the internet. Lets face it, a lot of the internet is
geared towards Windows. They do have a HUGE market share. Some
things just plain don't load right on her Mac.

6. Her Mac crashes sometimes. My Windows machine very rarely. But
they do both crash.

So what am I trying to get at? There are quirks with both systems.
And in some situations one will have an edge in usability over the
other. BUT neither one will signal the death of your ability to
work.

By the way, my wife will be upgrading to a PC soon. Not because it
is better, but it will make her interface with her clients easier.
Click to expand...
--
Knox
http://www.avatarphotoart.com
http://alleycatphotos.com
http://www.pbase.com/streetkid
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Knox
http://www.avatarphotoart.com
http://alleycatphotos.com
http://www.pbase.com/streetkid
Click to expand...
 
Hi Dan

I actually agree with most of your stuff (I also earn my living from pc's) but there is one thing I'd take serious issue with:
danh said:
Now first off, wipe your mind of all this stuff about which is
prettier, etc etc. A computer is a TOOL. It exists for you to get
your work done. People like to get emotional about their
computers, but they are just a TOOL. So pick the best TOOL to get
the job done.
Click to expand...
It's like saying it doesn't matter if you office is a tin shack, a 17th century barn or a modern business centre. It REALLY matters, at least, it really matters to me - I have a number of notebooks, and some bug me to use, some are a joy - the apple powerbooks really are a joy to use, if it doesn't matter to you, fine, but as long as the TOOLs get the job done (and most do) then choosing something you find enjoyable to work on is a definite bonus.

Kind Regards

--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
snowwrestler said:
danh said:
1. Our network is mostly compatible. Macs have native support for
Windows networking. Windows does not have natvie support for Mac
networking. My wife's mac can see my computers but I cannot
connect to hers.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you mean here. Sitting on my desk here at work I
have a Mac (G4 500MHz OS10.3) and a Dell PC. I was able to map a
network drive on the PC to my Mac no problem through the local
network (which is adminstered with MS Server 2003). I couldn't
browse to the Mac the way I could to a PC, but with the IP addess
of the Mac I completed the mapping no problem--and it is stable (it
reconnects after login).

This is invaluable as it allows me to quickly move files from one
machine to the other, or access them without even moving them. For
instance I can make a graphic on the Mac, save it to the Mac's
Public folder, then on the PC start up my FTP program and reach
into the mapped network drive and FTP the graphic up to our Web
server. I never need to even save the graphic on the PC--I just
navigate to it on the Mac through the drive mapping.
Click to expand...
Very cool. I will have to try it out. I was never able to "browse" and honestly, I have no reason to connect to my wife's mac so I never explored further.

Now one cool thing is that I was able to get the Veritas Backup exec Mac agent to work properly so I could back up her mac to the tape drive in the server.
snowwrestler said:
snowwrestler said:
2. My wife cannot print to my printer, but I can use hers.
Click to expand...
I assume this is a PostScript / PCL issue rather than a general
PC/Mac issue--i.e., a different printer would solve the problem.
To once again reference my office--I have no problem printing to
any of our network printers from either my PC or my Mac. In fact
on the Mac I can browse to any printer on the Windows network just
like I can on my PC. The key is PostScript and PCL support.
Click to expand...
Yes PCL issue. But it still is an "issue" that both platforms are not 100% compatible. Not that it means one platform is any better or worse, but it is an issue to consider.
 
Hi Andre
Yes - yet another sad programmer who takes photos!

I use PC's for my business - I use mac's for my website and all my photography. I'm not really an 'IT' person these days - I just like my computers to work, although I'm capable of fiddling about if there is a problem.

This is what I think:

SPEED

fast enough is fast enough - I guess I suspect that PC notebooks are probably faster for the buck.

COLOUR MANAGEMENT
Pain in the - easier on the mac though (IMHO)

CRASHES

Oh - it's what mac users always say, but XP is pretty robust these days - definitely six of one and half a dozen of the other.

COMPATABILITY
no problem - we have a mixed network - really it isn't an issue.

VIRUSES
Don't care? okay, but it's nice not to have to worry.

LOOKS

Someone else said that this doesn't matter - it's a TOOL. But I don't agree, I have a real affection for my 17" powerbook, and get a little thrill each time I connect it to the new 23' Apple display. Childish and irrelevant no doubt, but true none the less.

I use my mac for visual 'art', and it matters to me to have something which inspires me a little visually.

if you're used to a PC, you'll have fun sorting out the vagaries of OSx!

Keep well, and don't believe anyone who says one is the BEST!

kind regards
jono slack
acroix said:
I am trying to make up my mind what my next notebook should be.

Spending several hours on the internet to look into an Apple
Powerbook I still can not figure out why the Apple platform is
considered to be superior to PC platform for commercial artwork.

I do have extensive experience in the Windows and Linux world, but
lack the same regarding the Mac's.

I would really appreciate some pros and cons whether it is
worthwhile to switch from PC to Mac from a photographers / web
designers perspective.

Thanks for reading my post.

Andre

PS: This post is not intended to start a flame war between the PC
and the MAc community. It is purley for my enlightment towards a
platform I haven't had yet the chance to experience.
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
acroix said:
danh, wow, thanks for your extensive response. I appreciate you
share your experience.

I do have an aditional question. You stated that you 'play' around
with Linux (UNIX). Are you intrigued by OS X's BSD (UNIX) OS?

Thanks for your time,

Andre
Click to expand...
I am very intrigued. Don't get me wrong. Just because I use a PC does not make me anti-MAC. I just use the tool that makes the most sense for my needs.

The funny thing about the Mac OS is that it frustrates my wife. Coming from OS9, she finds OSX to be less intuitive. There are some times we have had to drop to the shell.

Another cool thing is basically OSX is unix with a custom window manager. It IS possible to run Gnome on a mac.

The last thing that just kind of cracks me up, is the people who call OSX a 21st century OS, vs Windows. Well actually, OSX is based of a unix kernel. Unix was developed back in the 70's. Not that this is bad, but certainly not like it is a 21st century kernel written from the ground up.

Once my wife upgrades I am taking her Powerbook to play with. I might even load Linux on it.

danh
 
Thanks Dan, seems like the old UNIX is still rocking :) (nt)
danh said:
acroix said:
danh, wow, thanks for your extensive response. I appreciate you
share your experience.

I do have an aditional question. You stated that you 'play' around
with Linux (UNIX). Are you intrigued by OS X's BSD (UNIX) OS?

Thanks for your time,

Andre
Click to expand...
I am very intrigued. Don't get me wrong. Just because I use a PC
does not make me anti-MAC. I just use the tool that makes the most
sense for my needs.

The funny thing about the Mac OS is that it frustrates my wife.
Coming from OS9, she finds OSX to be less intuitive. There are
some times we have had to drop to the shell.

Another cool thing is basically OSX is unix with a custom window
manager. It IS possible to run Gnome on a mac.

The last thing that just kind of cracks me up, is the people who
call OSX a 21st century OS, vs Windows. Well actually, OSX is
based of a unix kernel. Unix was developed back in the 70's. Not
that this is bad, but certainly not like it is a 21st century
kernel written from the ground up.

Once my wife upgrades I am taking her Powerbook to play with. I
might even load Linux on it.

danh
Click to expand...
--
http://pbase.com/acroix
 
Jono Slack said:
Jono Slack said:
Now first off, wipe your mind of all this stuff about which is
prettier, etc etc. A computer is a TOOL. It exists for you to get
your work done. People like to get emotional about their
computers, but they are just a TOOL. So pick the best TOOL to get
the job done.
Click to expand...
It's like saying it doesn't matter if you office is a tin shack, a
17th century barn or a modern business centre. It REALLY matters,
at least, it really matters to me - I have a number of notebooks,
and some bug me to use, some are a joy - the apple powerbooks
really are a joy to use, if it doesn't matter to you, fine, but as
long as the TOOLs get the job done (and most do) then choosing
something you find enjoyable to work on is a definite bonus.
Click to expand...
Umm, in many cases it doesn't matter. I have a number of clients (the majority of my clients are construction companies) who literally have offices that look like a tin shack. And these clients are LOADED. It is kind of funny to see $80k cars parked next to a tin shack but who am I to argue with their success.

And I would hope you understood my meaning. Of course usefulness is important. But many people in these threads throw out looks as a key factor. Yes I would agree Powerbooks look good and are very nice on usability. But I know of many PC laptops that also look good, but more important are good on USABILITY.

And you can make PC's look pretty darn good. Here is the training center in my office. I put this together. I think it looks pretty nice and professional. (I did not take the picture though)



 
Overall IMO UNIX remains one of the most versatile OS's ever built. Had a Unix OS been available for under $1000 back when Microsoft started, they never would have gotten off the ground, nor Apple for that matter

danh
 
Never mind the bias, how about an apples to oranges comparison?

A 2-way apple is "98%" faster than a single CPU Dell. Duh! How about a single CPU apple 20% faster than single CPU Dell? I can't dispute the accuracy of the figures, but 20% is probably not a meaningful difference, given the price premium for Apple.
Sam Carleton said:
fitz22 said:
http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/
Click to expand...
Hum, Fitz, do you think that the folks that are responsible for
that web site might be just a touch bias towards Mac’s? What about
a comparison where the URL does not start with http://www.apple.com? ;)
Sam Carleton said:
Sam Carleton said:
Sorry Fits, but please provide some proof. I have heard this before
and it has not panned out. The Mac platform has less performance in
the tests that I have read.

And if you want to bring in dual processors, then how about
including some dual cpu pc's into the mix? That is only fair.
Click to expand...
--
Fitz22
--------------
Canon DR~kit lens~canon 75-300~420EX~MAC
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
[email protected]
 
I have to stare at this Powerbook or it's friend, the 23 inch Apple Cinema Display, for hours everyday. Its style does matter. I've invested good money for a nice desk, comfy chair, attractive office decorations all so I can feel more comfortable here and my clients feel that I have some sense of style. Afterall, I am in a business that is an "art". So, why wouldn't I want the piece of equipment I spend more time in front of then I spend actually shooting the photos I'm PS'ing, to have some style to it?

Life has too few pleasures. It is a modest thrill to work on the Powerbook and enjoy the clean lines and style of the Apple display. Can't wait to get that 30 inch one! Soon...

Joepix
Jono Slack said:
I use PC's for my business - I use mac's for my website and all my
photography. I'm not really an 'IT' person these days - I just like
my computers to work, although I'm capable of fiddling about if
there is a problem.

This is what I think:

SPEED
fast enough is fast enough - I guess I suspect that PC notebooks
are probably faster for the buck.

COLOUR MANAGEMENT
Pain in the - easier on the mac though (IMHO)

CRASHES
Oh - it's what mac users always say, but XP is pretty robust these
days - definitely six of one and half a dozen of the other.

COMPATABILITY
no problem - we have a mixed network - really it isn't an issue.

VIRUSES
Don't care? okay, but it's nice not to have to worry.

LOOKS
Someone else said that this doesn't matter - it's a TOOL. But I
don't agree, I have a real affection for my 17" powerbook, and get
a little thrill each time I connect it to the new 23' Apple
display. Childish and irrelevant no doubt, but true none the less.

I use my mac for visual 'art', and it matters to me to have
something which inspires me a little visually.

if you're used to a PC, you'll have fun sorting out the vagaries of
OSx!

Keep well, and don't believe anyone who says one is the BEST!

kind regards
jono slack
acroix said:
I am trying to make up my mind what my next notebook should be.

Spending several hours on the internet to look into an Apple
Powerbook I still can not figure out why the Apple platform is
considered to be superior to PC platform for commercial artwork.

I do have extensive experience in the Windows and Linux world, but
lack the same regarding the Mac's.

I would really appreciate some pros and cons whether it is
worthwhile to switch from PC to Mac from a photographers / web
designers perspective.

Thanks for reading my post.

Andre

PS: This post is not intended to start a flame war between the PC
and the MAc community. It is purley for my enlightment towards a
platform I haven't had yet the chance to experience.
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
Click to expand...
 
Look, from the application software side they are pretty much the same. From an OS side, Mac OSX is mostly superior to Windows2000 in most of the things that matter. For example, Win2k won't tell you the size of a folder when viewed as a listing (ie, DETAILS view).

Macs are just a little more polished in its interface details. Sometimes when I'm in Windows I find myself in a situation where the frontmost visible window isn't active. I have to click in the window to make it active before I can type. I find that annoying and counter-intuitive. Macs are more fun and easier to use by a hair.

The Mac community is a little more close-knit, and it's easy to get help thru Mac User Groups or publications such as MacWorld.

But here's what really matters: everyone who uses a PC gets a virus and/or spyware sooner or later. Mac users just don't.

See: http://daringfireball.net/2004/09/for_whatever_reasons

That in itself is worth the price of admission.
 
Ken Zirkel said:
But here's what really matters: everyone who uses a PC gets a virus
and/or spyware sooner or later. Mac users just don't.
Click to expand...
I've been using PCs since the original IBM PC way back when and I have never had a single virus infection or any spyware on any of my computers. For that matter I have been using Apple machines since the Apple II and through the Lisa and havn't had any problems there either. All that it takes is a few simple precautions and you can protect yourself.

It is certainly true that many users who have PCs don't know the basic skills that are necessary to protect their systems and will find themselves having problems with malware. The fact that there isn't any of this stuff for OS X yet is definately a significant advantage for the platform. However, a skilled user will have absolutely no problem keeping this stuff off of their machines without anything more than a trivial effort - saying that every PC user will eventually get one is little more than fear mongering.
 
Dan,

I'm just curious about what your wife does since I'm a graphics kinda guy myself (with a serious investment in photography too like yourself). What does she do as a "medical illustrator" that brings in so much money? Does she make medical presentations for medical researchers? Or are you talking about more the "this muscle is connected by this ligamentaldoohickytendon at this point on your skeleton" kinda illustration? ;)

Not looking to pry, but am just curious as to learning what part of interfacing with the medical realm is so lucrative.

Any and all info appreciated, and if none given I of course respect that choice too as I have no reason to expect any real answer from a complete stranger on the net. Thanks though for any information you can share should you choose to do so.

Sincerely,

Wes
 
acroix said:
elwood,

actually my research seems to indicate that mac are prefered as
soon as art come into play. here in the atl area we have some art
institutes which exclusively use the apple platform. but photoshop
et al work as good on pc as they work on mac, aren't they? you see
my problem?

most people i have asked so far have voice an opinion when it comes
to their choice of platform, seldom one could nail down the facts.
Click to expand...
Ok, here are the primary reasons, and they are not application specific:

on the Mac:

1. color management is built-in to the OS not a bolt on addition to each application

2. PostScript font support is built-in to the OS. Windows OS while capable of dealing with PS fonts, would really rather to only use true-type.

3. Almost universal support for "drag and drop", "cut and paste".

4. direct keyboard support for extended characters ( bullet, trademark symbol, copyright symbol, etc). NO need to type escape sequences or backslash sequences.

5. To date (and this is of coarse subject to change in the future) I have never had to worry about opening email attachements, as none of the current viruses affect the Mac.

6. Multitasking and Multiprocessor support is built directly into the OS, so even non-multiprocessor aware apps, will still use more than one processor.

7. Plug-and-Play that works. Meaning almost no drivers need to be installed, and there is no such thing as hardware configuration. Plug in the firewire or USB device and they work as expected. (I can't tell you the number of hours I've seen wasted on windows systems, where people were trying to get something as simple as their printer to work correctly)

8. much simpler display spanning and mirroring for laptops. PCs are a royal pain when using video projectors. Everyone of them has some different set of keys and options for switching between the built-in display and the projector.

9. true logical volume support. None of this silly hard referenced C: D: E: drive stuff.

10. a ton of other small things, like the OS is smart enough to know when there isn't enough room on a drive to copy a file, so you don't waste time copying a file when it wont fit.

thats a quick list. hope it helps.

As far as price/performance goes, if your not building it yourself, there is no price difference at the mid-high to high end between Macs and PCs.

--
Philip G.
http://www.cgrafx.com
 
danh said:
....but certainly not like it is a 21st century kernel written from the ground up.
Click to expand...
Right. You don't suppose that the kernel, memory management routines, threading, networking, drivers, et. al. haven't been rewritten dozens of times since the '70s? You think MACH is the same as BSD? You think Apple spent 4 years of development just writing some user friendly GUI's for the shell?

It may use many of the original APIs and have the same alphabet soup's worth of utilities, but to think a major portion of the underlying code isn't new is silly.
 
Michael Long said:
danh said:
....but certainly not like it is a 21st century kernel written from the ground up.
Click to expand...
Right. You don't suppose that the kernel, memory management
routines, threading, networking, drivers, et. al. haven't been
rewritten dozens of times since the '70s? You think MACH is the
same as BSD? You think Apple spent 4 years of development just
writing some user friendly GUI's for the shell?

It may use many of the original APIs and have the same alphabet
soup's worth of utilities, but to think a major portion of the
underlying code isn't new is silly.
Click to expand...
I never said that it wasn't reworked. But I am just trying to make a point. Obviously the BSD Unix kernel has been rewritten many times over the years. But the CLEAR implication when people say "well the Mac OSX is a 21st century OS" it is a brand new written from the ground up kernel, lacking the legacy code that other OS's have to carry. This really isn't a fair comparison to Windows XP, since XP is not based on a legacy DOS kernel (like win98) but rather a full 32bit kernel that MS developed through the 90's. I am just trying to keep things fair (The XP kernel BTW also borrows heavily from unix history)

I am just trying to keep the comparisons fair.

danh
 
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