Jobs cut in Europe

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

here's some more Winston Churchill embodying more wisdom and insight than all the Dims, Leftists, and socialist weenies put together.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. - Winston Churchill

The whole history of the world is summed up in the fact that, when nations are strong, they are not always just, and when they wish to be just, they are no longer strong. - Winston Churchill

Many forms of government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. - Winston Churchill

Some regard private enterprise as if it were a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look upon it as a cow that they can milk. Only a handful see it for what it really is - the strong horse that pulls the whole cart. - Winston Churchill

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill

The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see. - Winston Churchill

You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer. - Winston Churchill

If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. - Winston Churchill

Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains. - Winston Churchill

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. - Winston Churchill

A liberal is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air. - Winston Churchill

... it is the people who control the Government, not the Government the people. - Winston Churchill

BobTrips · Nov 21, 2004

bobtyrell said:
Limited government & limited regulation (restricting abusive
business practices and monopolies). You can't have it both ways!
The problem on the continent and here in the USA (Dimocraps) is
that their utopian views obstruct their vision of what is possible
within the context of our human nature.

To put is as plainly and clearly as possible: Any attempt to help
everyone and protect all from their own foibles will end up doing
more damage than good. You have to create a systme of government
where the individual is empowered and accept that some will be left
behind. Churchill said it best: "The inherent vice of capitalism
is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism
is the equal sharing of miseries."

Winston Churchill

Period. Nothing further need be said. The choice is clear.

What is clear, Bobby, is that if we let our future here in America be decided by closed-minded know-it-alls that we will hasten our decline.

(You probably haven't noticed that while we may still be number one in some categories that the space has lessened, have you?)

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

I'm neither close minded or a know it all! But think what you wish!

To seek the truth, to recognize the truth, and to acknowledge the truth are attributes of a discriminating mind. To fail to do so is the sign of a slovenly undisciplined mind or, much worse, a mind enslaved by political correctness.

Good luck, "Bobby!"

BobTrips said:
bobtyrell said:

Limited government & limited regulation (restricting abusive
business practices and monopolies). You can't have it both ways!
The problem on the continent and here in the USA (Dimocraps) is
that their utopian views obstruct their vision of what is possible
within the context of our human nature.

To put is as plainly and clearly as possible: Any attempt to help
everyone and protect all from their own foibles will end up doing
more damage than good. You have to create a systme of government
where the individual is empowered and accept that some will be left
behind. Churchill said it best: "The inherent vice of capitalism
is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism
is the equal sharing of miseries."

Winston Churchill

Period. Nothing further need be said. The choice is clear.

Click to expand...

What is clear, Bobby, is that if we let our future here in America
be decided by closed-minded know-it-alls that we will hasten our
decline.

(You probably haven't noticed that while we may still be number one
in some categories that the space has lessened, have you?)

ameyer · Nov 21, 2004

Brian said:
Your views are just plain distorted. My guess is that you and you
buddies make far more money than your worth as do I and most
Americans. I've been to many countries in this world and have a
pretty good understanding of capabilities of the engineers in those
countries. When some making six figures in this country thinks
they are worth that much, they are completely delusional. Instead
Americans should be extremely grateful they make as much as they do
and should be wiser with their earnings.

Your friends not having jobs has nothing to do with the prez. It
has everything to do with a market economy.

If you are to blame anyone for your friends not having jobs, you
should blame Clinton for letting wages grow out of control making
the American worker uncompetitive. I know better. It's not
Clinton's fault, nor is it the Republicans fault. I blame it on
the market. The U.S. had commodities that its citizens wanted,
computers and other electronic gadgets. This spurred a lot of
buying. Buying is consumption and consumption leads to job
creation. When job creation out paced supply of qualified workers
two things happened salaries shot sky high in attempts to lure any
warm body and outsourcing took place.

This is bad in two ways. It gives low wage earning foreigners jobs
and makes American workers uncompetitive. This is ok during the
boom time, but boom times always come to an end and you are left
with a high salaried worker and a low salary worker, both are
competent. Which do you ax? The company must remain competitive
for the good of its employees or the company will collapse.
Sometimes it requires axing some jobs at home to keep other jobs at
home secure for the time being.

The government can step in for the short run and try and stop this,
but what ever the government does can only be considered a band
aide at best and most likely makes the inevitable crash all the
harder.

The only true way to keep the jobs at home is by making a better
product and keeping ahead of the technology curve in areas that the
consumer is throwing his money. Then you have something that
warrants higher wages.

I agree that your arguments are all essentially correct. Capitalism is a dynamic system in constant change. Increasing demand calls forth oversupply, which in turn leads to layoffs, cutbacks, and the business cycle of boom and bust.

I also agree that it's perfectly natural in a time of decline for capitalist employers to cut the older, hgher salaried workers in favor of the younger low salaried workers. It's perfectly natural to force down wages. It's perfectly natural to cut benefits. It's perfectly natural to ship jobs overseas to people who will work for one tenth of what Americans expect. Any business owner who doesn't do this will find that his competitors do it and undercut his prices in the market. To many business owners, the reality they perceive is that thay have to shaft their workers, or be shafted by their competitors.

The same holds true for protection of the environment. A business that pollutes can generally hold expenses lower than one that does not. A business that clear cuts forests to get lumber, or salinates ranch land to get natural gas, or turns mountain sides into open pits to get coal, can make more money and/or sell cheaper in the market, than competitors who protect the environment.

This is the logic of capitalism. The force that drives innovation and technological development at such a breakneck pace, something we benefit from, is an impersonal force - heedless of long term humanistic goals.

So how does the government fit into this? In my view, capitalism can be a beneficial system only if the government regulates it to prevent its natural tendencies of overexploitation and destruction.

It can do this in many ways.

Government can implement standards for minimum wages, health care, environmental protection, old age pensions, banking safety, food safety, and a myriad other things that business will inevitably attack in its quest for market share and profit. It can level the playing field so that the business that provides decent minimum wages for workers, decent health care for workers, fully funded pension plans, and protection of the environment, don't have to compete against business that don't do those things - because all are forced to by government regulation.

Unfortunately, the United States now has a government that is hell bent to dismantle all of our safeguards, to gut labor, health, social security, and environmental protections. It is government that wants to roll back all of the hard won victories of the past that gave people minimum wages, labor protection, clean air and water, medicare, social security, public education, and many other benefits that even the vast majority of our Republican citizens benefit from and take for granted.

So, yes, I think you're right. The forces that threw my friends out of work are impersonal forces of the marketplace. Yes, they weren't invented by the Bush administration - they have their roots in the development of the industrial, market based society that began in the 19th century. Yes, we in the developed world - the United States, Europe, Japan, and a few other places - live privileged lives and can be thankful for what we have.

But we can do a lot better.

Alan

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

ameyer said:
Unfortunately, the United States now has a government that is hell
bent to dismantle all of our safeguards, to gut labor, health,
social security, and environmental protections. It is government
that wants to roll back all of the hard won victories of the past
that gave people minimum wages, labor protection, clean air and
water, medicare, social security, public education, and many other
benefits that even the vast majority of our Republican citizens
benefit from and take for granted.

There is not a shred of credible evidence to support such fanciful nonsense.

ameyer said:
So, yes, I think you're right. The forces that threw my friends
out of work are impersonal forces of the marketplace. Yes, they
weren't invented by the Bush administration - they have their roots
in the development of the industrial, market based society that
began in the 19th century. Yes, we in the developed world - the
United States, Europe, Japan, and a few other places - live
privileged lives and can be thankful for what we have.

But we can do a lot better.

We ARE doing a lot better. Does no one realize that by EVERY SINGLE reasonable standard we are doing better today than EVER before materially. I would agree that we are experiencing cultural decadence, BUT our material well-being cannot be disputed by ANY except those whose minds have been addled by the morphine drip of Leftism.

BobTrips · Nov 21, 2004

bobtyrell said:
I'm neither close minded or a know it all! But think what you wish!

bobtyrell said:
"The better ideas are here!"

And those ideas would include consumer electronics? Oops..., Japan pulled into the lead a long time ago.

How about producing quality vehicles? Awww..., Japan and Germany took that one over a long time ago.

Digital cameras? Hummmm..., Last time I looked Canon/Nikon/Fuji/etc. weren't located in the States.

India is chewing up a lot of US computer jobs. They can do as good a job for less money.

And China? Where are our better ideas that are keeping manufacturing in the States?

Remember when we used to produce a lot of the world's steel? Remember how that sector went away because we didn't have better ideas about getting away from polluting, energy inefficient open hearth plants?

We've got a choice. We can walk around patting ourselves on the back because "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!!" and get a sore shoulder. Or we can drop our self-serving platitudes and open our eyes.

We're going to get a huge amount of competition from Europe. They're getting their act together. That's going to mean a very large market which will create a switch in focus on the part of manufacturers.

We're already seeing the impact of that market. It's starting to control package sizing of US products. We're seeing digital cameras released in Europe before the US.

And we've done a tremendous amount of damage to our reputation in the wider world. (Trust me on this one. I travel. I've seen the difference in how people feel about the US as opposed to how they felt only four years ago.) I'm going to bet that our mule-headedness is going to cause a huge, and I mean huge, hit to our flagship products (Coke, McDonalds, etc.). And I'm going to bet that the Euro starts replacing the US dollar as the global currency in the near future.

bobtyrell said:
To seek the truth, to recognize the truth, and to acknowledge the
truth are attributes of a discriminating mind. To fail to do so is
the sign of a slovenly undisciplined mind or, much worse, a mind
enslaved by political correctness.

I'm with you down to the last two words.

Did you ever think that political correctness was all about being courteous? You know, not using offensive terms for people who aren't white males.

I'd suggest that you take your own advice, open your eyes, and look more critically about how we are doing here in the US.

--
bob
Latest offering - 'Dusk on the Buriganga'
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Shots from a bunch of places (esp. SEA and Nepal).
Pictures for friends, not necessarily my best.

http://www.trekearth.com/members/BobTrips/photos/
My better 'attempts'.

Dafydd · Nov 21, 2004

He was a great wartime leader but otherwise completely out of touch with the hopes and aspirations of the vast majority of the British people, which is why he and his conservative party were so comprehensively defeated by the socialists of the day as soon as peace returned.
Dafydd

Dafydd · Nov 21, 2004

Glen Barrington said:
European taxes are just too darn high; that and other cultural issues combine to reduce productivity and actually discourage risk taking.

Too high for what? Americans pay in other ways, and pay handsomely. Neither the US health system nor the US armed forces are cheap, for example. Where do you think the money comes from? It's certainly not from exports!

Glen Barrington said:
I work for a major European company. The difference in productivity between the American division (which is the only division making any money) and the European divisions is significant. Cost of operation is MUCH lower in the US and productivity is higher.

Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's dying to know the name of this 'major European company'. Your experience is certainly not shared by some of the major US companies I work for, such as IBM, despite the much flatter organisations here in Europe and the much longer and more frequent holidays.

Glen Barrington said:
That isn't because we are better workers...

Suggestion: Try longer and more frequent holidays but maintain or increase production targets. You'd be amazed at what happens!

Glen Barrington said:
...it's because corprations are freer to abandon unprofictable operations and start up new operations with more potential. (this is an often overlooked aspect of the US economy)

It's not overlooked by Europeans, and it's not exactly uncommon in Europe, either.

Dafydd

hello goodbyte · Nov 21, 2004

bobtyrell said:
bobtyrell said:

Unfortunately, the United States now has a government that is hell
bent to dismantle all of our safeguards, to gut labor, health,
social security, and environmental protections. It is government
that wants to roll back all of the hard won victories of the past
that gave people minimum wages, labor protection, clean air and
water, medicare, social security, public education, and many other
benefits that even the vast majority of our Republican citizens
benefit from and take for granted.

Click to expand...

There is not a shred of credible evidence to support such fanciful
nonsense.

Just on one point, the environment, there is a lot of evidence:

http://truthout.org/docs_03/112103C.shtml

"Crimes Against Nature" By Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

" George W. Bush will go down in history as America's worst environmental president. In a ferocious three-year attack, the Bush administration has initiated more than 200 major rollbacks of America's environmental laws, weakening the protection of our country's air, water, public lands and wildlife.

"...Generations of Americans will pay the Republican campaign debt to the energy industry with global instability, depleted national coffers and increased vulnerability to price shocks in the oil market.

"...Today, more than ever, it is critical for American citizens to understand the difference between the free-market capitalism that made our country great and the corporate cronyism that is now corrupting our political process, strangling democracy and devouring our national treasures.

..."The best way to judge the effectiveness of a democracy is to measure how it allocates the goods of the land: Does the government protect the commonwealth on behalf of all the community members, or does it allow wealth and political clout to steal the commons from the people?

"Today, George W. Bush and his court are treating our country as a grab bag for the robber barons, doling out the commons to large polluters. Last year, as the calamitous rollbacks multiplied, the corporate-owned TV networks devoted less than four percent of their news minutes to environmental stories. If they knew the truth, most Americans would share my fury that this president is allowing his corporate cronies to steal America from our children."

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/12/int03325.html

"BuzzFlash.com Talks with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., About His Emile Zola-like "J'Accuse" Indictment of the Bush Anti-Environmental Record"

BuzzFlash: "The use of science comes off as somewhat ironic almost from the first week Bush was sworn in. One of the first issues that came up was global warming...What you’re suggesting, Robert... is that they’re "cooking the books" scientifically.

Kennedy: "Yes. This, to me, is one of the most alarming things that this Administration is doing -- it’s compromised the scientific process and systematically intimidated, blackballed, fired, muzzled and gagged scientists in every department of government. Scientists who produce science that challenges corporate profit taking, or that might be an obstacle to corporate profit taking, are routinely punished or punished by muzzled or gagged. (sic)

..."Democracy is fragile. It needs to be nurtured. It needs to be stewarded. And the free market has to be protected through government regulation. As I say, capitalists do not want free markets. They want profits. And the best way to capture profits -- to capture a reliable profit stream -- is to get control of government and use government to crush your competition.

"And that’s what’s happening in this country -- the free market is being eliminated. And in many of the major sectors, the free market has already disappeared."

--

Glen Barrington · Nov 21, 2004

I love these dialogs when they remain civil, and so far this has been interesting! And we ARE drifiting a bit too far afield.

But Bob, I've got to disagree with you about your definition of 'Political Correctness'. I think it's OK to digress a bit more this time, since it takes us back to the definition of what is acceptable Art. And photography is art.

Once courtesy becomes narrowly and rigidly defined it is no longer courtesy, it is behavior control. The definition of poltically correct words and a politically corect contex for their use is a form of thought control.

We all have a right to be rude, even white men We all have a right to express ourselves, and even to use harsh and rude terms. Nowhere that I know of is there defined a right to not be offended.

The best photography is often times ugly and politically incorrect. We can't condemn non creative people for using politically incorrect terms and expressing politically incorrect ideas and at the same time allow "creative types" that very freedom.

BobTrips said:
Did you ever think that political correctness was all about being
courteous? You know, not using offensive terms for people who
aren't white males.

Member said:
--
bob
Latest offering - 'Dusk on the Buriganga'
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Shots from a bunch of places (esp. SEA and Nepal).
Pictures for friends, not necessarily my best.

http://www.trekearth.com/members/BobTrips/photos/
My better 'attempts'.

--
Stop the Insanity!
Diet and Exercise Kills!

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

Glen Barrington said:
But Bob, I've got to disagree with you about your definition of
'Political Correctness'. I think it's OK to digress a bit more this
time, since it takes us back to the definition of what is
acceptable Art. And photography is art.

Once courtesy becomes narrowly and rigidly defined it is no longer
courtesy, it is behavior control. The definition of poltically
correct words and a politically corect contex for their use is a
form of thought control.

We all have a right to be rude, even white men We all have a right
to express ourselves, and even to use harsh and rude terms.
Nowhere that I know of is there defined a right to not be offended.

The best photography is often times ugly and politically incorrect.
We can't condemn non creative people for using politically
incorrect terms and expressing politically incorrect ideas and at
the same time allow "creative types" that very freedom.

BobTrips said:

Did you ever think that political correctness was all about being
courteous? You know, not using offensive terms for people who
aren't white males.

Click to expand...

Glen Barrington said:

--
bob
Latest offering - 'Dusk on the Buriganga'
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Shots from a bunch of places (esp. SEA and Nepal).
Pictures for friends, not necessarily my best.

http://www.trekearth.com/members/BobTrips/photos/
My better 'attempts'.

Click to expand...

--
Stop the Insanity!
Diet and Exercise Kills!

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

what he has to say is nonsense. He has the temerity to criticize average Americans and their use of SUV's all the while flying around in private jets. Like all hypocritical Leftists it's what he says not what he does. There is NOTHING this man could say that I would accept at its face value.

The environment has continued to improve unabated in the USA for the past 60 years. THAT'S a fact.

Environment suffers disproportionately in socialist and third world countries. THAT'S a fact.

Now, how do you like them apples?!

hello goodbyte said:
bobtyrell said:

hello goodbyte said:

Unfortunately, the United States now has a government that is hell
bent to dismantle all of our safeguards, to gut labor, health,
social security, and environmental protections. It is government
that wants to roll back all of the hard won victories of the past
that gave people minimum wages, labor protection, clean air and
water, medicare, social security, public education, and many other
benefits that even the vast majority of our Republican citizens
benefit from and take for granted.

Click to expand...

There is not a shred of credible evidence to support such fanciful
nonsense.

Click to expand...

Just on one point, the environment, there is a lot of evidence:

http://truthout.org/docs_03/112103C.shtml

"Crimes Against Nature" By Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

" George W. Bush will go down in history as America's worst
environmental president. In a ferocious three-year attack, the Bush
administration has initiated more than 200 major rollbacks of
America's environmental laws, weakening the protection of our
country's air, water, public lands and wildlife.

"...Generations of Americans will pay the Republican campaign debt
to the energy industry with global instability, depleted national
coffers and increased vulnerability to price shocks in the oil
market.

"...Today, more than ever, it is critical for American citizens to
understand the difference between the free-market capitalism that
made our country great and the corporate cronyism that is now
corrupting our political process, strangling democracy and
devouring our national treasures.

..."The best way to judge the effectiveness of a democracy is to
measure how it allocates the goods of the land: Does the government
protect the commonwealth on behalf of all the community members, or
does it allow wealth and political clout to steal the commons from
the people?

"Today, George W. Bush and his court are treating our country as a
grab bag for the robber barons, doling out the commons to large
polluters. Last year, as the calamitous rollbacks multiplied, the
corporate-owned TV networks devoted less than four percent of their
news minutes to environmental stories. If they knew the truth, most
Americans would share my fury that this president is allowing his
corporate cronies to steal America from our children."

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/12/int03325.html

"BuzzFlash.com Talks with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., About His Emile
Zola-like "J'Accuse" Indictment of the Bush Anti-Environmental
Record"

BuzzFlash: "The use of science comes off as somewhat ironic almost
from the first week Bush was sworn in. One of the first issues that
came up was global warming...What you’re suggesting, Robert... is
that they’re "cooking the books" scientifically.

Kennedy: "Yes. This, to me, is one of the most alarming things that
this Administration is doing -- it’s compromised the scientific
process and systematically intimidated, blackballed, fired, muzzled
and gagged scientists in every department of government. Scientists
who produce science that challenges corporate profit taking, or
that might be an obstacle to corporate profit taking, are routinely
punished or punished by muzzled or gagged. (sic)

..."Democracy is fragile. It needs to be nurtured. It needs to be
stewarded. And the free market has to be protected through
government regulation. As I say, capitalists do not want free
markets. They want profits. And the best way to capture profits --
to capture a reliable profit stream -- is to get control of
government and use government to crush your competition.

"And that’s what’s happening in this country -- the free market is
being eliminated. And in many of the major sectors, the free market
has already disappeared."

--

--------

Glen Barrington · Nov 21, 2004

The same reason we are so fond of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, even if we don't necessarily agree completely with them!

They, like Churchill, had a vision for the world, and were willing to take steps to put the world on the path to that vision. That is an admirable character trait! He, and they, did not take polls to determine what to say to the people or which side of an issue to stand. Their beliefs were consistent, and people knew where they stood on almost every issue.

Maybe the British have forgotten Churchil and hiis resolute courage to say what he believed in, but the Americans haven't. You guys had a national treasure in Winston Churhill and you didn't even know it. It sounds like you still don't know it.

Dafydd said:
He was a great wartime leader but otherwise completely out of touch
with the hopes and aspirations of the vast majority of the British
people, which is why he and his conservative party were so
comprehensively defeated by the socialists of the day as soon as
peace returned.
Dafydd

--
Stop the Insanity!
Diet and Exercise Kills!

BobTrips · Nov 21, 2004

Glen Barrington said:
I love these dialogs when they remain civil, and so far this has
been interesting! And we ARE drifiting a bit too far afield.

But Bob, I've got to disagree with you about your definition of
'Political Correctness'. I think it's OK to digress a bit more this
time, since it takes us back to the definition of what is
acceptable Art. And photography is art.

Once courtesy becomes narrowly and rigidly defined it is no longer
courtesy, it is behavior control. The definition of poltically
correct words and a politically corect contex for their use is a
form of thought control.

Yes, that's entirely true. But politically non-correct words also control thoughts and behavior.

Have you considered that by using male terms for for certain occupations we suggest that those are jobs that only men can fill and women need not apply?

Part of the effort in changing the words that we commonly use has been an attempt to control behavior in a different, more inclusive, direction.

Problem for a lot of (and I'm one of you) white males is that we've had a position of dominance for a long time in this country. And we're having to share it with a lot of non-white, non-male people.

Think about how we've forced them to reside in our social structure for so long....

Put yourself in this situation. Because you really want to travel, don't have the skills to become a pilot, you (a male) take a job as an attendant on an airline. And everyone one refers to you as a stewardess. Would that feel good?

Glen Barrington said:
We all have a right to be rude, even white men We all have a right
to express ourselves, and even to use harsh and rude terms.
Nowhere that I know of is there defined a right to not be offended.

Well, yes. We have a right to be rude.

And everyone around us has the right to decide that we're a* holes.

Haven't you had the experience of working for a real jerk? Someone who told the worst jokes, took advantage of his position, made unreasonable demands? And no one spoke up about his borish behavior.

That was because he held too much power. And for a long time we white guys held almost all the power. We were permitted to demean everyone else and get away with it.

But times have changed.

It might be time for some of us white guys to start waking up. Right now about 65% of college students are female. And males get most of the Ds and Fs. Now given that roughly 50% (don't hold me to the exact proportion) of the people in the US are white that means that only about 18% of college students are white males. And a lot of us are flunking out.

Who do you think we'll be working for in a decade or two?

Glen Barrington said:
The best photography is often times ugly and politically incorrect.

Ugly? Sure. Life is often very ugly. And this is where photography rises to its pinnacle. It confronts us with our ugliness. It forces us to be more honest with ourselves.

Politically incorrect? You'll have to explain that one.

Perhaps some of our 'glamor' porn shots offend others. But it's not so much the taking of the pictures that's offensive. It's when we hang the cheesecake in a public place. Have you ever talked to your mother about how she felt when she went to the mechanic shop to pick up the family car and there was that Snap-On calendar hanging in the office?

Glen Barrington said:
We can't condemn non creative people for using politically
incorrect terms and expressing politically incorrect ideas and at
the same time allow "creative types" that very freedom.

I guess I don't follow you here. I haven't seen 'creative' people given a free pass to degrade someone else with their language. (Well, I can see that in some rap/hip hop music. And, personally, I condemn that just as quickly as I condemn loud-mouthed white guys calling other people names.)

Dafydd · Nov 21, 2004

Glen Barrington said:
The same reason we are so fond of Ronald Reagan...

Pure nostalgia, surely: this wasn't the way he was regarded at the time, even by most Americans. What exactly was the Reagan vision?

Glen Barrington said:
...and Margaret Thatcher

Margaret 'there-is-no-such-thing-as-society' Thatcher went the same way as most failed political leaders in the UK: disowned and abandoned by her own party. The rest of the country hardly shed a tear. She finally lost all credibility a few years back when she tried to tell the rest of the world what a thoroughly nice chap General Pinochet was. Thatcher's vision = Thatcherism, now just a synonym for unbridled avarice.

Glen Barrington said:
Maybe the British have forgotten Churchil...

Hardly.

Glen Barrington said:
You guys had a national treasure in Winston Churhill and you didn't even know it. It sounds like you still don't know it.

Really? Again, I hardly think so. The relationship was complicated, as was the British class system at the time (it still is).

Dafydd

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

Member said:
Have you considered that by using male terms for for certain
occupations we suggest that those are jobs that only men can fill
and women need not apply?

Gosh, I've never heard that novel argument before! What an incredibly profound insight.

Every single totalitarian despot since the beginning of time has great justifications for the imposition of whatever controls THEY deem necessary. It is a goose-stepping fascist mind set that is prevalent exclusively on the Left today.

Member said:
Put yourself in this situation. Because you really want to travel,
don't have the skills to become a pilot, you (a male) take a job as
an attendant on an airline. And everyone one refers to you as a
stewardess. Would that feel good?

Oooooooh, you are just oooooozing with sensitivity! Why you must be a metrosexual! Man, the level of this sort of discourse is about that I'd expect from a sophomore cheerleader (female that is!).

Member said:
That was because he held too much power. And for a long time we
white guys held almost all the power. We were permitted to demean
everyone else and get away with it.

There have always been and will always bee a* holes as you put it. The new tyrants are those egalitarians on the left with their stifling and oppressive speech and behavior codes. Give me a little intolerance and free-wheeling FREEDOM any day. The most oppressive people on earth are the so called oppressed when they get in position of power.

Your Marxist perspective and anti-white male attitudes are silly and ridiculous.

Member said:
But times have changed.

Too bad!

Member said:
Member said:

Have you ever talked to

Click to expand...

your mother about how she felt when she went to the mechanic shop
to pick up the family car and there was that Snap-On calendar
hanging in the office?

Are you for real?!! This just keeps getting worse! How old are you? 18? I don't need to ask my mother how she felt. She ignored it as a ill-bred behavior. She certainly didn't get on a soap box. I'll tell you what is offensive: The cultural decay that surrounds us every day on TV, in the movies, in our magazines, etc. etc. etc. THAT makes ME feel unconfortable. You Left wing maggots insist on rubbing our faces in your decadence and call it "enlightened!"

Member said:
I guess I don't follow you here. I haven't seen 'creative' people
given a free pass to degrade someone else with their language.
(Well, I can see that in some rap/hip hop music. And, personally,
I condemn that just as quickly as I condemn loud-mouthed white guys
calling other people names.)

Oh, you don't condemn anything but traditional values. You want to see the whole thing tossed out in your pursuit of you simpy egalitarian utopia.

Grow UP!!

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

Dafydd said:
Pure nostalgia, surely: this wasn't the way he was regarded at the
time, even by most Americans. What exactly was the Reagan vision?

Limited government, limited taxation, reduced regulation, and strong national defense. Simple really.

BobTrips · Nov 21, 2004

bobtyrell said:
bobtyrell said:

Have you considered that by using male terms for for certain
occupations we suggest that those are jobs that only men can fill
and women need not apply?

Click to expand...

Gosh, I've never heard that novel argument before! What an
incredibly profound insight.

Every single totalitarian despot since the beginning of time has
great justifications for the imposition of whatever controls THEY
deem necessary. It is a goose-stepping fascist mind set that is
prevalent exclusively on the Left today.

bobtyrell said:

Put yourself in this situation. Because you really want to travel,
don't have the skills to become a pilot, you (a male) take a job as
an attendant on an airline. And everyone one refers to you as a
stewardess. Would that feel good?

Click to expand...

Oooooooh, you are just oooooozing with sensitivity! Why you must
be a metrosexual! Man, the level of this sort of discourse is
about that I'd expect from a sophomore cheerleader (female that
is!).

bobtyrell said:

That was because he held too much power. And for a long time we
white guys held almost all the power. We were permitted to demean
everyone else and get away with it.

Click to expand...

There have always been and will always bee a* holes as you put it.
The new tyrants are those egalitarians on the left with their
stifling and oppressive speech and behavior codes. Give me a
little intolerance and free-wheeling FREEDOM any day. The most
oppressive people on earth are the so called oppressed when they
get in position of power.

Your Marxist perspective and anti-white male attitudes are silly
and ridiculous.

bobtyrell said:

But times have changed.

Click to expand...

Too bad!

bobtyrell said:

bobtyrell said:

Have you ever talked to

Click to expand...

your mother about how she felt when she went to the mechanic shop
to pick up the family car and there was that Snap-On calendar
hanging in the office?

Click to expand...

Are you for real?!! This just keeps getting worse! How old are
you? 18? I don't need to ask my mother how she felt. She ignored
it as a ill-bred behavior. She certainly didn't get on a soap box.
I'll tell you what is offensive: The cultural decay that surrounds
us every day on TV, in the movies, in our magazines, etc. etc. etc.
THAT makes ME feel unconfortable. You Left wing maggots insist on
rubbing our faces in your decadence and call it "enlightened!"

bobtyrell said:

I guess I don't follow you here. I haven't seen 'creative' people
given a free pass to degrade someone else with their language.
(Well, I can see that in some rap/hip hop music. And, personally,
I condemn that just as quickly as I condemn loud-mouthed white guys
calling other people names.)

Click to expand...

Oh, you don't condemn anything but traditional values. You want to
see the whole thing tossed out in your pursuit of you simpy
egalitarian utopia.

Grow UP!!

No Bobby. I'm a 60 year old white guy who has a pile of graduate degrees and who started and ran two successful businesses. I started out in the racist south, in a culture where white men reigned, and I had to learn new things.

I'm well grown up, educated, knowledgeable, skilled and tolerant of those who think differently than I do. As long as they have the maturity and respect to play nice.

Now either start playing nice or I'm going to start ignoring you.

--
bob
Latest offering - 'Dusk on the Buriganga'
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Shots from a bunch of places (esp. SEA and Nepal).
Pictures for friends, not necessarily my best.

http://www.trekearth.com/members/BobTrips/photos/
My better 'attempts'.

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

Member said:
Now either start playing nice or I'm going to start ignoring you.

Ooooooooh!!! Please! PLEASE!! Don't ignore me! BTW, you still exhibit the level of sophistication I'd expect from a HS cheerleader (girl).

"Bobby" your sweeping indictment of the south and your sneering profession of moral superiority are a bit much.

bobtyrell · Nov 21, 2004

Member said:
I
started out in the racist south, in a culture where white men
reigned, and I had to learn new things.

You seem to be drawn to oppression, Bobby. First that of the South which you admirably rejected and then that of the Left which you less than admirably have embraced.

Member said:
I'm well grown up, educated, knowledgeable, skilled and tolerant of
those who think differently than I do. As long as they have the
maturity and respect to play nice.

Hmmm. Grown up - OK in years maybe. Educated? I think it was wasted. Skilled? I don't have a clue.

You have to EARN respect.

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