H
Henry Richardson
Guest
Damn! Did the price go up? Just a few days ago everyone was saying it was $1599.
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Henry Richardson
http://www.richardson.photoshare.co.nz/
http://www.printroom.com/pro/intrepid
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Tried a Maxxum 7D and 20D - my first impressions
- Thread starter digicam_fetish
- Start date
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Henry Richardson
http://www.richardson.photoshare.co.nz/
http://www.printroom.com/pro/intrepid
Desmond Lim
Veteran Member
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=353925&is=REG
Des
'Charter Member - 7D Adoption Society'
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Des
'Charter Member - 7D Adoption Society'
Sorry for jump in late, kinda busy right now. But when see your post, I just can't say no. ^ ^
I have beta 7D for almost 2 weeks. I had a brief moment with 20D, shot it around 20 shots. I am always Minola big fan so my comments sometimes bias. However, I do my best to response to some of the originator's post which is respected. Here you go:
Body and handling:
Although both are in the same league but I like 7D better. Its deeper and more contour grip make you hold the camera more firmly.
Physical interface:
I never like push button style of Canon and always like the dedicated button style on Dynax 7, hence 7D.
Viewfinder:
After gave a good look trough both finder, 7D is definitely is more brighter and more easily to see. Clarity and brightness of spherical acute matte is still hold their faith and little to none on 35mm SLR can beat it. Put on 28-100mm may not tell you much since the viewfinder will dim anyway. But put on 85/1.4 then you will see a different story. Even you put lens on the same league on 20D.
AS
I don't fell the LED and Shake warning to be confused. Just keep your camera still and look for the LED to settle down and there you go. Perfect shake free shot almost every time for even sometimes 4 stop lower than normal shutter speed.
Responsiveness:
Specification wise, 20D is ahead of 7D in frame rate and burst mode. But for me, it is really doesn't matter since 3fps at 15 frames is more than enough for me. However, I don't feel any much different in start-up time for both camera. Both is almost immediately ready for you to shoot when turn on. 7D may win here a bit if you count the location of on/off switch which right at your left thumb. While for focus accuracy and speed, generally speaking, not differ much as well. Canon lens has preference to focus faster due to the quietness of USM. Put on 24-105D and 24-85USM on 7D and 20D, then you will see. One more thing, 7D low light AF seem to lock on target better than 20D due to better AF sensitivity. (-0.5EV vs -1.0EV)
LCD and Playback interface:
The bigger the better, even lower pixel count or less contrast. So I would prefer 2.5" than 1.8" any day. However, the 4.7x zoom of 7D should be better. For the interface side, I have no like or dislike on both. It's again a matter of getting used to.
Overall feel:
Sorry Canon's folk, I like 7D better. Simple as that. Holding 20D to me like when I hold EOS-30 and compare with my Dynax 7. 7D reminds me to the old day which you enjoy shooting with your manual camera. Everything has to be taking care off before you can enjoy the image quality. 20D on the other hands, remind me of more point and shoot style with all thing automate in which taking pictures is nothing secretive. Just my opinion, of course.
BTW, I can't comment anything on either image quality or price/availability until I get to hold the 7D production unit plus the confirmation on P/A from KM Thailand. When that days come, will get back to your guys again. For the time being, I still enjoy playing with the beta unit. ;-P
I have beta 7D for almost 2 weeks. I had a brief moment with 20D, shot it around 20 shots. I am always Minola big fan so my comments sometimes bias. However, I do my best to response to some of the originator's post which is respected. Here you go:
Body and handling:
Although both are in the same league but I like 7D better. Its deeper and more contour grip make you hold the camera more firmly.
Physical interface:
I never like push button style of Canon and always like the dedicated button style on Dynax 7, hence 7D.
Viewfinder:
After gave a good look trough both finder, 7D is definitely is more brighter and more easily to see. Clarity and brightness of spherical acute matte is still hold their faith and little to none on 35mm SLR can beat it. Put on 28-100mm may not tell you much since the viewfinder will dim anyway. But put on 85/1.4 then you will see a different story. Even you put lens on the same league on 20D.
AS
I don't fell the LED and Shake warning to be confused. Just keep your camera still and look for the LED to settle down and there you go. Perfect shake free shot almost every time for even sometimes 4 stop lower than normal shutter speed.
Responsiveness:
Specification wise, 20D is ahead of 7D in frame rate and burst mode. But for me, it is really doesn't matter since 3fps at 15 frames is more than enough for me. However, I don't feel any much different in start-up time for both camera. Both is almost immediately ready for you to shoot when turn on. 7D may win here a bit if you count the location of on/off switch which right at your left thumb. While for focus accuracy and speed, generally speaking, not differ much as well. Canon lens has preference to focus faster due to the quietness of USM. Put on 24-105D and 24-85USM on 7D and 20D, then you will see. One more thing, 7D low light AF seem to lock on target better than 20D due to better AF sensitivity. (-0.5EV vs -1.0EV)
LCD and Playback interface:
The bigger the better, even lower pixel count or less contrast. So I would prefer 2.5" than 1.8" any day. However, the 4.7x zoom of 7D should be better. For the interface side, I have no like or dislike on both. It's again a matter of getting used to.
Overall feel:
Sorry Canon's folk, I like 7D better. Simple as that. Holding 20D to me like when I hold EOS-30 and compare with my Dynax 7. 7D reminds me to the old day which you enjoy shooting with your manual camera. Everything has to be taking care off before you can enjoy the image quality. 20D on the other hands, remind me of more point and shoot style with all thing automate in which taking pictures is nothing secretive. Just my opinion, of course.
BTW, I can't comment anything on either image quality or price/availability until I get to hold the 7D production unit plus the confirmation on P/A from KM Thailand. When that days come, will get back to your guys again. For the time being, I still enjoy playing with the beta unit. ;-P
Gediminas 8
Senior Member
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I guess you should have started your message by stating that you like D7D better irrespective of the 20D's feature set.
That's the impression I got from your message. If you feel the need for it, make an even more detailed "comparison" of the two cameras and use it to show how much "better" your favourite camera is, discounting any objectively superior specs of the other camera as "totally irrelevant to you".
Well, suppose this type of self-gratification is to be expected from fans of a specific camera brand. That's why I appreciated the differing approach of Jeremy even though he also seems to like the D7D a lot. Like myself, by the way.
That's the impression I got from your message. If you feel the need for it, make an even more detailed "comparison" of the two cameras and use it to show how much "better" your favourite camera is, discounting any objectively superior specs of the other camera as "totally irrelevant to you".
Well, suppose this type of self-gratification is to be expected from fans of a specific camera brand. That's why I appreciated the differing approach of Jeremy even though he also seems to like the D7D a lot. Like myself, by the way.
mjjglasgow
Leading Member
If he prefers the handling of the 7D he prefers the handling of the 7D. That's an opinion not bias, just as the comments of the original poster were an opinion not bias. As for the 20Ds feature set well its excellent but not everyone needs 5fps - personally I don't even need 3fps.
David Goolsby
Senior Member
I read Morris' review as well and he did mention a problem with the fps shooting of the 7D. He also mentioned that a representative of KM went into the menu system to make some adjustments and while there was improvement, it wasn't much. Having not been there I can still tell you what the problem was: Morris was in single frame shooting mode. The KM rep didn't need to go into the menu system to make the adjustment, he could simply have made the adjustment using a nob on the camera. All the rep did was reduce the delay between shots in single frame mode. Don't blame Jeremy or Morris for KM's blunders. The first being the lens used when Jeremy shot with the camera. The second error was having people unfamiliar with the product representing it when Morris shot with it.
Morris also stated that he was to fault for the exposure problems he had with the 20D. A problem he later corrected if one reads further into the thread.
I was trying to refrain from posting on this thread but Jeremy has been treated a bit unfairly by some. Heck we don't even know what firmware was used in the camera Jeremy shot. His impressions are what they are and they will be the same impression shared by SOME newcomers to the 7D. NO camera can be everything to everybody, not even the 7D.
Having said all of that the only thing that I would like to point out to Jeremy when evaluating ANY camera is to take EVERYTHING into consideration and see if the camera in question meets most of his needs. Something that no one seemed to point out to Jeremy is that faster to focus does not necessarily mean 'properly' focused. This is something that apparently doesn't show up in the viewfinder or small LCD of some cameras. You don't know that a camera has misfocused until you see the frame on a monitor or in a print.
I'll finish by saying that to think that the 7D won't have it's share of problems is naive. We can only hope that KM has done a good job in minimizing the occurence and frequency of those problems.
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David
'Charter Member—7D Adoption Society'
Morris also stated that he was to fault for the exposure problems he had with the 20D. A problem he later corrected if one reads further into the thread.
I was trying to refrain from posting on this thread but Jeremy has been treated a bit unfairly by some. Heck we don't even know what firmware was used in the camera Jeremy shot. His impressions are what they are and they will be the same impression shared by SOME newcomers to the 7D. NO camera can be everything to everybody, not even the 7D.
Having said all of that the only thing that I would like to point out to Jeremy when evaluating ANY camera is to take EVERYTHING into consideration and see if the camera in question meets most of his needs. Something that no one seemed to point out to Jeremy is that faster to focus does not necessarily mean 'properly' focused. This is something that apparently doesn't show up in the viewfinder or small LCD of some cameras. You don't know that a camera has misfocused until you see the frame on a monitor or in a print.
I'll finish by saying that to think that the 7D won't have it's share of problems is naive. We can only hope that KM has done a good job in minimizing the occurence and frequency of those problems.
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David
'Charter Member—7D Adoption Society'
David Goolsby
Senior Member
I meant to add my comment as a separate thread. I did not mean to direct them specifically at you. My apologies.
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David
'Charter Member—7D Adoption Society'
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David
'Charter Member—7D Adoption Society'
Gediminas 8
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Certainly. Then why not simply say so, without pretending to make a "comparison"?
Neither do I. However, it isn't the only point in this "comparison" which I didn't find very objective.
Gediminas 8
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digicam_fetish
Member
Michael Meissner
Forum Pro
I would imagine the fact that Canon just announced the 17-85 IS lens, and it is one of the two kit configurations for the 20D (the 18-55 kit lens that shipped with the 300D is the other option) would have something to do with it.
R
raminolta
Guest
I would like to compare them side by side by myself on AF performance and shutter release and turn on/off lag times. Then i can decide whether i agree with the reviewer or not. So for me it is soon to say if the review was fair or not. Seemed the reviewer was trying to be unbiased. However, i have seen people who were inpressed with Canon USM AF performance merely because it is silent which gives a wrong impression that it is faster which indeed MAY be wrong (i have seen this about older Canon models, so need to check the 20D in this respect).
User-interface: I think most of the people (intermdediate and up) if they use both cameras for a while, they appreciate the intuitiveness and ease of use of D7 design. Trying in a store for a short while usually in automatic modes does not show how frustrating it can be in the field to adjust a function if one needs to go through several stage of pushing buttons/ rotating dials. My vote here is definitely for D7, as i have used both systems for several years.
Ramin
User-interface: I think most of the people (intermdediate and up) if they use both cameras for a while, they appreciate the intuitiveness and ease of use of D7 design. Trying in a store for a short while usually in automatic modes does not show how frustrating it can be in the field to adjust a function if one needs to go through several stage of pushing buttons/ rotating dials. My vote here is definitely for D7, as i have used both systems for several years.
Ramin
H
Henry Richardson
Guest
Yes, of course. This wasn't a dig at the Canon people. They did a good job. The KM people need to get their head out of the sand (or where ever they have it) though.
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Henry Richardson
http://www.richardson.photoshare.co.nz/
http://www.printroom.com/pro/intrepid
JoshW
Senior Member
Hey, I don't really need 5fps either
10x magnification isn't really useful
excellent quality photos at high ISO? Um, don't really need that.
faster start up/focus/playback? Nah... I have plenty of time. What's the rush???
9 focus points? Hey, I only use ONE focal point at a time, who needs nine?
If you have already made up your mind on which camera to purchase, and just want a review to valideate your decision (alex...) no problem.
But don't jump down the reviewers throat if he/she tries to give an honest review.
adrianox
Veteran Member
just back from the usa and had an hour to kill before catching the plane so wandered into a store - here's some pics
reaaaaallly enjoyed the feel of the cam, and the DOF gradation - 'twas hard to put it down ;-)
adrianox
KM Dimage A1&A2 excellent FAQ's here:
http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq
my stuff: http://www.pbase.com/adrianox
'To photograph truthfully and effectively is to see beneath the surfaces and
record the qualities of nature and humanity which live or are latent in all
things.' -Ansel Adams
reaaaaallly enjoyed the feel of the cam, and the DOF gradation - 'twas hard to put it down ;-)
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adrianox
KM Dimage A1&A2 excellent FAQ's here:
http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq
my stuff: http://www.pbase.com/adrianox
'To photograph truthfully and effectively is to see beneath the surfaces and
record the qualities of nature and humanity which live or are latent in all
things.' -Ansel Adams
I read his statement as a conclusion not as a preconceived opinion. If after he has tried both, he feels that he likes the handling of one vs the other, whats the issue. If he was an american photo magazine, he would of course say: "after handling both cameras, I can see that they would appeal to different users, choice is wonderful"
Tom
Tom
dsl
Senior Member
lots about the Nikon D70, the amount of playing alone has made my mind up for me, this will be the cam for me. but everyone is saying you cant comare the D70 with the D7d, but i dont see why not, same MP count, more or less same specs.
But one thing i have read, and i say without having tried this, but alot of reviews say the with the right card (speed wise) the internal buffer, once is starts to right to the card, you can start filling it up again, alot of people have said that you more or less hold your finger down on the shutter button and it wond stop until the card is full, it's supposed to be the fastest in it price bracket and range.
I currently own a A1, i love it to bits, i've been waiting like many of you, a year or so to get my hands on the D7d, i've considered Drebel and a couple of others, but never the Nikon D70. I always though that having no iso100 was a massive draw back, but having an open mind and looking around at the Pentax, the Canon, and the Nikon, i can say that i very surprised and impressed at the output from what is classed a low end or entry level DSLR, i have no glass from any other parties, so im not tied to anyone, but i do believe that there is no such thing as brand loyalty, if some thing else comes along that appears to be as good or better, then i'll look it over, and this unit, to me at least, is one hell of a unit for the pirce compared to the D7d, i know it'll come down in price.
Dont just stick with the D7d just becuase you've waited for ever for it. by objective, look around, it's opened my eyes alot.
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Simon
Check out the face behind the text at http://www.pbase.com/image/27670744
On fotopic http://gallery55230.fotopic.net/
But one thing i have read, and i say without having tried this, but alot of reviews say the with the right card (speed wise) the internal buffer, once is starts to right to the card, you can start filling it up again, alot of people have said that you more or less hold your finger down on the shutter button and it wond stop until the card is full, it's supposed to be the fastest in it price bracket and range.
I currently own a A1, i love it to bits, i've been waiting like many of you, a year or so to get my hands on the D7d, i've considered Drebel and a couple of others, but never the Nikon D70. I always though that having no iso100 was a massive draw back, but having an open mind and looking around at the Pentax, the Canon, and the Nikon, i can say that i very surprised and impressed at the output from what is classed a low end or entry level DSLR, i have no glass from any other parties, so im not tied to anyone, but i do believe that there is no such thing as brand loyalty, if some thing else comes along that appears to be as good or better, then i'll look it over, and this unit, to me at least, is one hell of a unit for the pirce compared to the D7d, i know it'll come down in price.
Dont just stick with the D7d just becuase you've waited for ever for it. by objective, look around, it's opened my eyes alot.
--
Simon
Check out the face behind the text at http://www.pbase.com/image/27670744
On fotopic http://gallery55230.fotopic.net/
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