D70 - Highly Recc'd - Phil's Review...

[buckshot200499]

both the D70 and the 300d recieved a "Highly Recommended" conclusion. They are both very good cameras.

My roommate has the D70, it is a VERY solid feeling camera, I would have probably went with the D70 if it were available when the 300d was first out. But, it wasn't, and I have had a good 1/2 years fun with the 300d, and I am still happy with my purchase.

Now that the official D70 review is out, could you please take all of your nikon comments and stuff over to the Nikon forums? thats where they belong. When we want Nikon information, we will open up the Nikon forums. Thats why the forums are seperated.

 

[Sam Bennett]

No real surprises here. I would have thought Phil would harp on the moire stuff a bit more, but it's interesting to see how much of it is really the fault of the in-camera RAW to JPEG conversion. With a RAW workflow, the problem is greatly minimized. I don't quite get why he shrugs off the 1/8000 color shift problem - Nikon really should be taken to task on that one. The camera simply doesn't operate as advertised. I often find myself shooting at 1/4000 at ISO 100 in bright sunlight and wide open (portrait) apertures. The fact that the D70 is missing everything below 200 and can't operate at its extremes seems hard to ignore.

I don't really get why people say the D70 feels so much stronger than the Rebel. I checked one out the other day, and I feel the difference is marginal, especially when you compare both even to a 10D, let alone a 1D.

Can't wait to see how Canon responds. My hope is this makes the 10D MKII even better. My plan has always been to upgrade and have the Rebel as a backup.

I'll agree with the other poster that if I wasn't already invested in Canon glass, I'd definitely consider the D70.

Just reading through the review of the Canon's competition...

Stan

--

Sam Bennett - Photo Guy, Audio Engineer and Web-Apper - http://www.swiftbennett.com

 

[Stan]

..by the final number on a subjectively judged chart. That can help you find a limit, but you need to use judgement to "call it" and it also says nothing about other things happening at the same time.

Before you get to the limit the apparent sharpness is higher on Nikon images.

It's sort of like seeing that two speaker systems can hit 20,000 hertz. But if has a rolled off high end retaining a comparable final limit, it will sound duller than the other.

Stan

 

[Forrest41926]

If only Nikon had come out with the D70 six months ago, Canon may
have put out a DSRL at that price range even earlier than they
did....but that's neither here nor there. Now Nikon owners get to
benefit from a decent, inexpensive DSLR.

I think Canon forced Nikon's hand with the D70. If there hadn't been a $999 dReb, six months from now there would still be no D70.

It's good that we (300D owners) are not in such an exclusive club
anymore, as Canon is probably deep into their next 300D and 10D
revisions (although now that I have a 300D, I think I will try to
squeeze 2-3 years out of a digital camera).

Definately agree!!

 

[Kevin Li]

Just reading through the review of the Canon's competition...

Stan

 

[Stan]

..issue as Phil. He noted the Drebel's colorful high ISO noise. I called it "Rainbow Noise" and you can see it in the shadow noise crops I posted last week. Dunno if that comes up in your ISO push approach or not. The largely monochrome noise he found from the D70 is more like fim and less bothersome / noticeable. But the standard deviation test cannot tell this stuff apart. In other words it looks like he found lower noise from the Drebel, but it was uglier and more noticeable...

Stan

 

[ioannis]

... at a point where we debate about cool or warm WB shots on $1000 dSLRs. I am surprised that Phile hasnt mentioned that professional photographers of people, or architecture will have to look through every photo they take for moire. That is of course not to say that the 300d doesnt show moire, it is just less of a concern. Also as expected 6 months later than the 300D, Nikon produced better camera and must have seriously messed up everyone who had just bought a D100.

Yiannis

Canon Magnifier S
EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
EF 50mm f/1.4

Dignity consists not in possessing honors, but in the consciousness that we deserve them. Aristotle

 

[Sam Bennett]

Personally, I shoot RAW exclusively. Phil's test show pretty convincingly that with a RAW workflow the moire problem is greatly reduced. I agree that I would prefer to not have to worry about it - but I can see how more serious photographers (shooting RAW) wouldn't fret over it.

D70 owners still keep saying how moire only shows up in 2 out of
100 pics or something like that, well that is some BS. If you go
look at the full resolution blow ups of Phil's shots, a majority of
the outside shots have moire in them. I am actually surprised that
Phil spoke so highly of a camera that has a flaw as prevalent as
this. I shoot 90% outside on sunny days, and I cannot take the time
to open each shot and try to reduce the moire. The Nikon does have
some nice features, but so will Canon's answer and with Canon's
sensor, I won't have to worry about moire. In the meantime, I am
enjoying my Rebel and collecting some nice Canon glass.

--

Sam Bennett - Photo Guy, Audio Engineer and Web-Apper - http://www.swiftbennett.com

 

[Forrest41926]

No real surprises here. I would have thought Phil would harp on the
moire stuff a bit more, but it's interesting to see how much of it
is really the fault of the in-camera RAW to JPEG conversion. With a
RAW workflow, the problem is greatly minimized. I don't quite get
why he shrugs off the 1/8000 color shift problem - Nikon really
should be taken to task on that one. The camera simply doesn't
operate as advertised. I often find myself shooting at 1/4000 at
ISO 100 in bright sunlight and wide open (portrait) apertures. The
fact that the D70 is missing everything below 200 and can't operate
at its extremes seems hard to ignore.

I don't think it's a big deal, personally ... I rarely hit the 1/4000 limit on my camera. But then I have ISO 100; if I were trying to shoot portraits outdoors ( especially scantily clad ladies at the beach! ) with a big aperture lens, this could be an issue. I mean ND filters would help here, but a lower ISO floor would go a lot further...

But this is something I would never notice in my own shooting.

Can't wait to see how Canon responds. My hope is this makes the 10D
MKII even better. My plan has always been to upgrade and have the
Rebel as a backup.

This is definately an interesting question!! I can't wait to see how the 1Ds - 2 and the 10D - 2 work out.

 

[ioannis]

If you think that Canon's ISO 1600 is noisy then dont use it. Oh and by the way please advise all high-end photographers to throw their grainy 35mm films away...

enough measurbating.

Yiannis

Canon Magnifier S
EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
EF 50mm f/1.4

Dignity consists not in possessing honors, but in the consciousness that we deserve them. Aristotle

 

[podster]

We're happy with our 300Ds

Now go away, you pointless, trolling twunt.

 

[KR3]

I have to admit that I agree with most all of the comparisons, except one. In the very first studio comparison I saw the Rebel beating the D70 in every shot as far as resolution and sharpness. Phil did not see it this way, and in fact gave the edge to the D70. This definitely struck a bad chord with me. I then agreed with his second studio comparison at ISO 1600. So why the huge difference in the first comparison. It is a small niggle, but it just really bugs me when I see something totally different than somebody else. Other than that, the D70 seems to be a great little camera. Having said that, I am still happy with my Rebel.

Just reading through the review of the Canon's competition...

Stan

 

[misha]

With these dSLRs you can see amazing levels of detail! Jpeg, in
studio, at low ISO the dReb kills the D70; at higher ISO and
outdoors ( both in jpeg ) they're more or less even, and with both
cameras set to RAW the Nikon pulls ahead.

I wonder about the comparison of results from RAW - would it depend on the kind of software used (C1, PS CS, CFV) and the settings? Perhaps Nikon's RAW converter does a better job of squeezing max resolution?
--
Misha

 

[Sam Bennett]

Stan -

But you can also see in his tests that with the RAW workflow the differences are quite small. He's also shooting at Parameter 1, so you're not testing like to like. This is a problem in general with the review. In many cases the subjective assessment has all in favor of the Rebel (IMO) - but the Rebel is shooting with heightened contrast/sharpening, so it's not really fair. It must be a bit frustrating for him. It's similar to making subjective audio assessments - 9 times out of 10 people will say that the "louder" recording sounds "better" . I think that's what you see with DR Parameter 1 shots vs. the D70 - they're not better necessarily, they're just "louder".

My hunch at first was that the noise in the Nikon is more film-like, but that's really only in the case you're comparing Parameter 1'd in-camera JPEGs. I only shoot RAW, so my images don't look the same. I can use multi-color suppression if I feel it's out of hand, but most of the time I opt not to. When the files are reduced for web, the problem pretty much goes away. For prints the multi-colored noise is much more of an issue. I will begin showing my work in galleries soon, so it'll be interesting to play with this stuff for large prints.

..issue as Phil. He noted the Drebel's colorful high ISO noise. I
called it "Rainbow Noise" and you can see it in the shadow noise
crops I posted last week. Dunno if that comes up in your ISO push
approach or not. The largely monochrome noise he found from the
D70 is more like fim and less bothersome / noticeable. But the
standard deviation test cannot tell this stuff apart. In other
words it looks like he found lower noise from the Drebel, but it
was uglier and more noticeable...

Stan

--

Sam Bennett - Photo Guy, Audio Engineer and Web-Apper - http://www.swiftbennett.com

 

[Dominique Guerra]

I propose that we all boycot this site ... 300d is better than D70 ...

Just reading through the review of the Canon's competition...

Stan

--



DoG

 

[Stan]

See the Canon smoothing, even at ISO 100? And the D70 detail in JPEG in the tires and license plate? Slight artifacting on the plate drops away in RAW and more detail is gained. This image had near zero Moire, EXCEPT on the plate. Those are 200% crops.



Stan

 

[Stan]

...tend to take a similar tone towards me in my comparo related posts.

Yet if you read Phil's reviews, you'll see that I appear to have been correct on about a half dozen different issues!

So be it!

Stan

 

[Loggedonnow]

After looking at all the comparison shots, I too feel the 300D won almost every comparison. I am not knocking the D70 as the two are very close but each posted comparison shot looked to me to be better with the Canon.

I would like to see some of these shots printed and side by side though. Would I even see any difference.

Just reading through the review of the Canon's competition...

Stan

 

[Evil Eggplant]

I saw the same thing. The D70 colors were more accurate, but the D70 sky was very noisy compared to the 300d, and the 300d seemed to resolve more detail in almost every shot than the D70.

I sat there looking at these images feeling that the 300d did a slightly better job than the d70, I was surprised when I Phil mentioned otherwise.

Either way, the d70 is a serious box. Very feature-rich, unlike my 300d. The only thing I really, really like about my 300d is the quality of the pictures, and the quality of canon glass.

Just reading through the review of the Canon's competition...

Stan

--
rich
'beware the eggplant'
c-7oo, d-51O, DSC-F7O7, 3OOD
'Trying, the first step to failure'- Homer Simpson
http://www.iceninephotography.com

 

[Sam Bennett]

You should be posting a DR RAW example done in C1 as well.

See the Canon smoothing, even at ISO 100? And the D70 detail in
JPEG in the tires and license plate? Slight artifacting on the
plate drops away in RAW and more detail is gained. This image had
near zero Moire, EXCEPT on the plate. Those are 200% crops.



Stan

--

Sam Bennett - Photo Guy, Audio Engineer and Web-Apper - http://www.swiftbennett.com