Best small camera with good viewfinder?

[OutsideTheMatrix]

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera.

I have both G80 (G85) and FZ1000*...

The G80 body alone is not so big and heavy compared to the FZ1000?

It's your choice of lens that will determine whether it's bigger/heavier or smaller/lighter overall...

As for the viewfinders, I personally find them very similar. Which I guess is not surprising given their technical specs are pretty much the same? (G80 maybe slightly higher magnification? I dunno, different sites seems to list different values for each)

BTW, G85 is 16MP sensor. If the resolution is important to you, that would be a step back vs the FZ1000's 20MP. Note that the G90 (G95) has 20MP sensor.

*I'm using a G90 instead of the G80 now though, and only using the FZ1000 for its high-speed video these days. (G90 has high speed video but no autofocus for it whatsoever - manual focus only, or use the mode dial to switch to a mode that autofocuses, then switch to movie mode to start recording. That's almost useless for my purposes, where the FZ1000 at least autofocuses until you start recording, then fixed-focus)

Yeah if I use small primes it will keep the G80 down in size, although it might look silly with small lenses attached. Do you find the G90 a big improvement over the G80? I know it's bigger again in size and weight.

In addition to the improvements mentioned by Hatstand, the G95 did incur more of a crop on 4K video than the G85 IIRC, so that might be a potential downside, the Sony 20MP sensor also handles long exposures much better than the previous gen 16MP Pana sensor tho so that's another improvement.

Is the 16 MP sensor in the EM10 II from Sony or Panny? I thought it was from Sony? Is the 20 MP sensor from Sony better than that one too for long exposures? In what ways? Thanks!

 

[Cruisin66]

I can definately recommend the Pana G100. Small compact, great big high res evf and fully articulating. IQ is on par with GX9. Great for travel. Totally underrated camera and wrongly branded as a vlogging camera. Check it out!

 

[Disdain]

I'd forgotten to mention I've also owned a G100. I found that grip actually hindered use of the camera with a bigger lens. Also it's not stabilised which I want.

I guess I can always try one without a viewfinder and see how it goes in sunshine. Never have an issue with my smartphone seeing the screen. I feel for long shots it's easier to stabilise the camera when holding to your eye

 

[Disdain]

Small camera lover here: GM1, 2 RX100’s (m3 & m6), E-P7, GX9 & X00V. Came from a D800 and progressively got smaller over the years. Not telling you what to to but sharing some of what I experienced.

Small cameras with good eye level viewfinders don’t exist. Medium size do exist, but with a decent eye point (think sunglasses as well as correction), are not in abundant supply. Many of the medium sized bodies discussed here have mediocre to poor EVF’s. By far I prefer the bright and cheery RX100's pop ups to my GX80/85 & 9. My most recent purchase, the E-P7 has no evf. I’ve been shooting my GM1 for years in the south Florida sun. I initially thought I’d never be without an evf. Till I admitted I got along just fine with my smartphones.

I'd suggest you’re going to make compromises looking for a small camera with a good viewfinder. Compromises that will materially dilute your current criteria.

Make sure you need one.

How do you rate the ep-7? If I don't go for a viewfinder that interests me the most.

 

[NorCal Jim]

Small camera lover here: GM1, 2 RX100’s (m3 & m6), E-P7, GX9 & X00V. Came from a D800 and progressively got smaller over the years. Not telling you what to to but sharing some of what I experienced.

Small cameras with good eye level viewfinders don’t exist. Medium size do exist, but with a decent eye point (think sunglasses as well as correction), are not in abundant supply. Many of the medium sized bodies discussed here have mediocre to poor EVF’s. By far I prefer the bright and cheery RX100's pop ups to my GX80/85 & 9. My most recent purchase, the E-P7 has no evf. I’ve been shooting my GM1 for years in the south Florida sun. I initially thought I’d never be without an evf. Till I admitted I got along just fine with my smartphones.

I'd suggest you’re going to make compromises looking for a small camera with a good viewfinder. Compromises that will materially dilute your current criteria.

Make sure you need one.

How do you rate the ep-7? If I don't go for a viewfinder that interests me the most.

I love the rangefinder style and handling of the Olympus Pen cameras. My first Olympus camera purchase was the E-P5 and the VF-4 hot shoe-based EVF was a perfect match. Unfortunately, I sold the E-P5 & EVF after purchasing the Pen-F since I kept reaching for the E-P5 instead of the Pen-F (not my smartest move). After a suitable period of seller's remorse, I replaced the E-P5 (actually, I purchased two). Unfortunately, the VF-4 prices shot up to the point where it doesn't make sense to purchase it given my low usage and EVF-equipped camera alternatives within easy reach.

So, when I first learned of the E-P7 release, I pictured an updated E-P5! Although it does have some updates, I was disappointed to learn that the E-P7 features the same style screen that Olympus started using in their E-PL series starting with the E-PL7 (rotates 180 degrees downward). The E-PL7 did tilt similar to the E-P5 but had an additional hinge for the downward rotation. The result was a noticeable increase in thickness. I am happy to stick with my Pen-F and two E-P5 cameras.

Jim

 

[scphoto]

I've just sold my FZ1000 II. The view finder was excellent, but found I wasn't taking it enough to places as it's too big. I don't mind big if I'm going to an airshow or a zoo, but I don't always want it that big and heavy.

I want to return to M43 after trying a Sony A6000, but not really getting on with the handling or EVF. I've previously owned lots of M43 cameras - GX800, GX85, GX7, GX9, OM-D EM10 II, PEN E-PL9. I haven't been convinced by the view finder on any of those, to the point that I never used to use it.

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera. Has the viewfinder improved on the EM10 III or IV over the II?

Are the EM5 II, III, or even GX8 or original EM1 I worth looking at?

Disdain -

You say that you want to get a new camera PRIMARILY because your FZ1000ii is too "big and heavy". That camera (with a 24-400 mm lens and a 1 inch sensor) weights 28.5 ounces (808g). One of the smaller m4/3 recommended was the Oly E-M5iii. It weighs 15.9 ounces (450g) WITHOUT the lens. If you attach a Oly 12-200mm F3.5-6.3 lens that ADDS an additional 16 ounces (455g). The total weight of this combo is slightly more than the FZ1000ii which you feel is "too heavy". Also, at the max equiv. zoom (400mm) the FZ1000ii has a much faster lens (but a slightly smaller sensor.

You don't mention what type of photography requires the smaller weight/size. For me personally, the smallest, lightest, and most versatile pocketable camera is the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 VII which has a 1 inch sensor and a 24-200 zoom at f/2.8-4.5. It takes great shots and I often carry it along with my Oly/Panasonic cameras/lenses. Actually, the price of a new E-M5iii + a reasonable llens may cost more than a new RX100VII

Don't get me wrong ... I think m4/3 offers many great smaller/lighter options and that, in large part, is why I mostly use m4/3 system for my photography. But having a great pocket camera like the Sony RX100 is a very useful and easy to carry companion for my m4/3 equipment.

Just my two cents (0.019 Euros) ...

- Simon

 

[stokey]

Judging by your history of dissatisfaction with a large number of different cameras you won't be happy with whatever camera is recommended here.

 

[Impulses]

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera.

I have both G80 (G85) and FZ1000*...

The G80 body alone is not so big and heavy compared to the FZ1000?

It's your choice of lens that will determine whether it's bigger/heavier or smaller/lighter overall...

As for the viewfinders, I personally find them very similar. Which I guess is not surprising given their technical specs are pretty much the same? (G80 maybe slightly higher magnification? I dunno, different sites seems to list different values for each)

BTW, G85 is 16MP sensor. If the resolution is important to you, that would be a step back vs the FZ1000's 20MP. Note that the G90 (G95) has 20MP sensor.

*I'm using a G90 instead of the G80 now though, and only using the FZ1000 for its high-speed video these days. (G90 has high speed video but no autofocus for it whatsoever - manual focus only, or use the mode dial to switch to a mode that autofocuses, then switch to movie mode to start recording. That's almost useless for my purposes, where the FZ1000 at least autofocuses until you start recording, then fixed-focus)

Yeah if I use small primes it will keep the G80 down in size, although it might look silly with small lenses attached. Do you find the G90 a big improvement over the G80? I know it's bigger again in size and weight.

In addition to the improvements mentioned by Hatstand, the G95 did incur more of a crop on 4K video than the G85 IIRC, so that might be a potential downside, the Sony 20MP sensor also handles long exposures much better than the previous gen 16MP Pana sensor tho so that's another improvement.

Is the 16 MP sensor in the EM10 II from Sony or Panny? I thought it was from Sony?

It is a Sony, the only 16MP Pana sensor that Oly ever used was a custom one-off in the original E-M1 and that one had some of the same long exposure limitations.

Is the 20 MP sensor from Sony better than that one too for long exposures? In what ways? Thanks!

All of Sony sensors (the various 16MP iterations and the two 20MP in use with very different readout rates) have the same advantage when it comes to long exposures AFAIK (versus the last 16MP Pana made). There's a good example of this in Cameralabs' E-M5 II (not III) review IIRC.

Basically the Pana sensors just show a lot more hot (bright) pixels during a long exposure, to the point where you can shoot the Sony sensor without dark frame NR and still match the results of the Pana with it. That's probably why Pana made a big increase to the max bulb times of their bodies in the GX9 & G95.

 

[uniball]

Small camera lover here: GM1, 2 RX100’s (m3 & m6), E-P7, GX9 & X00V. Came from a D800 and progressively got smaller over the years. Not telling you what to to but sharing some of what I experienced.

Small cameras with good eye level viewfinders don’t exist. Medium size do exist, but with a decent eye point (think sunglasses as well as correction), are not in abundant supply. Many of the medium sized bodies discussed here have mediocre to poor EVF’s. By far I prefer the bright and cheery RX100's pop ups to my GX80/85 & 9. My most recent purchase, the E-P7 has no evf. I’ve been shooting my GM1 for years in the south Florida sun. I initially thought I’d never be without an evf. Till I admitted I got along just fine with my smartphones.

I'd suggest you’re going to make compromises looking for a small camera with a good viewfinder. Compromises that will materially dilute your current criteria.

Make sure you need one.

How do you rate the ep-7? If I don't go for a viewfinder that interests me the most.

The jury is still out. I’m using it with the PL15, P20 and O25/1.8. All small and the camera is lovely in hand. Better balanced than the GX9 or X100V. Very nice design and finishing touches. Other than the bottom plate and battery door, nicely put together. Not solid like my other cameras but fine and not an issue. Good tilt LCD, very nice 2-button top plate. One (yes one) assignable function button, with nothing I’d want to assign to it. Nice files, both raw and jpeg. My issue is the UI. I can easily move between my Panasonic's, Fuji and Sony's. The Oly is another world: no minimum shutter speed, no iso profiles, no custom shooting profiles, poor implementation of a Q-menu. Poor enough, coupled with no custom shooting profiles, that diving into the real menu is too frequent - not a camera that’s fun in the sharply contrasting light of my South Florida. Last, what I suspect is a philosophical principal to maximize the use of superb IBIS, shutter speeds are held to a level that will blur growing grass. That’s aperture preferred. In shutter preferred, I have never seen anything but a wide open aperture - no matter how bright it might be outside. Easy enough, go for manual mode, but there’s no wheel that can handle ISO, it’s the d-pad and button presses. Not my idea of enjoyment.

I’m in my 70’s with tremors. IBIS is my friend and I'm trying to come to terms with the camera. No tremors I’d be back to my GM1 and more PP.

 

[Richandhiscat]

[No message]

 

[OutsideTheMatrix]

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera.

I have both G80 (G85) and FZ1000*...

The G80 body alone is not so big and heavy compared to the FZ1000?

It's your choice of lens that will determine whether it's bigger/heavier or smaller/lighter overall...

As for the viewfinders, I personally find them very similar. Which I guess is not surprising given their technical specs are pretty much the same? (G80 maybe slightly higher magnification? I dunno, different sites seems to list different values for each)

BTW, G85 is 16MP sensor. If the resolution is important to you, that would be a step back vs the FZ1000's 20MP. Note that the G90 (G95) has 20MP sensor.

*I'm using a G90 instead of the G80 now though, and only using the FZ1000 for its high-speed video these days. (G90 has high speed video but no autofocus for it whatsoever - manual focus only, or use the mode dial to switch to a mode that autofocuses, then switch to movie mode to start recording. That's almost useless for my purposes, where the FZ1000 at least autofocuses until you start recording, then fixed-focus)

Yeah if I use small primes it will keep the G80 down in size, although it might look silly with small lenses attached. Do you find the G90 a big improvement over the G80? I know it's bigger again in size and weight.

In addition to the improvements mentioned by Hatstand, the G95 did incur more of a crop on 4K video than the G85 IIRC, so that might be a potential downside, the Sony 20MP sensor also handles long exposures much better than the previous gen 16MP Pana sensor tho so that's another improvement.

Is the 16 MP sensor in the EM10 II from Sony or Panny? I thought it was from Sony?

It is a Sony, the only 16MP Pana sensor that Oly ever used was a custom one-off in the original E-M1 and that one had some of the same long exposure limitations.

Is the 20 MP sensor from Sony better than that one too for long exposures? In what ways? Thanks!

All of Sony sensors (the various 16MP iterations and the two 20MP in use with very different readout rates) have the same advantage when it comes to long exposures AFAIK (versus the last 16MP Pana made). There's a good example of this in Cameralabs' E-M5 II (not III) review IIRC.

Basically the Pana sensors just show a lot more hot (bright) pixels during a long exposure, to the point where you can shoot the Sony sensor without dark frame NR and still match the results of the Pana with it. That's probably why Pana made a big increase to the max bulb times of their bodies in the GX9 & G95.

Thanks, I had always wondered about that! Do the max bulb times of Panny cameras like the GX9 and G95 now match Oly's? In my camera I think it is 20 minutes? I noticed you also mentioned readout rates and I also wondered why the differences in electronic shutter between Olympus and Panny. Which sensor would you say is the best for using electronic shutter the most?

 

[Impulses]

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera.

I have both G80 (G85) and FZ1000*...

The G80 body alone is not so big and heavy compared to the FZ1000?

It's your choice of lens that will determine whether it's bigger/heavier or smaller/lighter overall...

As for the viewfinders, I personally find them very similar. Which I guess is not surprising given their technical specs are pretty much the same? (G80 maybe slightly higher magnification? I dunno, different sites seems to list different values for each)

BTW, G85 is 16MP sensor. If the resolution is important to you, that would be a step back vs the FZ1000's 20MP. Note that the G90 (G95) has 20MP sensor.

*I'm using a G90 instead of the G80 now though, and only using the FZ1000 for its high-speed video these days. (G90 has high speed video but no autofocus for it whatsoever - manual focus only, or use the mode dial to switch to a mode that autofocuses, then switch to movie mode to start recording. That's almost useless for my purposes, where the FZ1000 at least autofocuses until you start recording, then fixed-focus)

Yeah if I use small primes it will keep the G80 down in size, although it might look silly with small lenses attached. Do you find the G90 a big improvement over the G80? I know it's bigger again in size and weight.

In addition to the improvements mentioned by Hatstand, the G95 did incur more of a crop on 4K video than the G85 IIRC, so that might be a potential downside, the Sony 20MP sensor also handles long exposures much better than the previous gen 16MP Pana sensor tho so that's another improvement.

Is the 16 MP sensor in the EM10 II from Sony or Panny? I thought it was from Sony?

It is a Sony, the only 16MP Pana sensor that Oly ever used was a custom one-off in the original E-M1 and that one had some of the same long exposure limitations.

Is the 20 MP sensor from Sony better than that one too for long exposures? In what ways? Thanks!

All of Sony sensors (the various 16MP iterations and the two 20MP in use with very different readout rates) have the same advantage when it comes to long exposures AFAIK (versus the last 16MP Pana made). There's a good example of this in Cameralabs' E-M5 II (not III) review IIRC.

Basically the Pana sensors just show a lot more hot (bright) pixels during a long exposure, to the point where you can shoot the Sony sensor without dark frame NR and still match the results of the Pana with it. That's probably why Pana made a big increase to the max bulb times of their bodies in the GX9 & G95.

Thanks, I had always wondered about that! Do the max bulb times of Panny cameras like the GX9 and G95 now match Oly's? In my camera I think it is 20 minutes?

Not quite sure but I think it's in their respective manuals.

I noticed you also mentioned readout rates and I also wondered why the differences in electronic shutter between Olympus and Panny. Which sensor would you say is the best for using electronic shutter the most?

There might be other differences in e-shutter implemention even when they use the same sensors, since the one sensor can be configured to work a number of ways (IIRC the G9 had some differences vs say the E-M1 II depending on the ISO level)... For using a lot of e-shutter I'd want something with a faster readout regardless of bit depth etc., so the 1/60 sensors in the G9 (GH5?) / E-M5 III / E-M1 II & III, or the much faster one in the OM-1 (~1/125?).

With anything slower you're risking more rolling shutter distortion and/or light banding when using e-shutter for general shooting, which accounts for most other bodies out there without a stacked sensor (a couple Canon RF bodies w/o one can also manage ~1/60).

 

[Disdain]

Judging by your history of dissatisfaction with a large number of different cameras you won't be happy with whatever camera is recommended here.

It's possibly true as I think my ideal camera doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong I didn't hate those cameras just didn't keep them long enough. I'll need to settle on a comprise of some sort.

 

[Disdain]

I've just sold my FZ1000 II. The view finder was excellent, but found I wasn't taking it enough to places as it's too big. I don't mind big if I'm going to an airshow or a zoo, but I don't always want it that big and heavy.

I want to return to M43 after trying a Sony A6000, but not really getting on with the handling or EVF. I've previously owned lots of M43 cameras - GX800, GX85, GX7, GX9, OM-D EM10 II, PEN E-PL9. I haven't been convinced by the view finder on any of those, to the point that I never used to use it.

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera. Has the viewfinder improved on the EM10 III or IV over the II?

Are the EM5 II, III, or even GX8 or original EM1 I worth looking at?

Disdain -

You say that you want to get a new camera PRIMARILY because your FZ1000ii is too "big and heavy". That camera (with a 24-400 mm lens and a 1 inch sensor) weights 28.5 ounces (808g). One of the smaller m4/3 recommended was the Oly E-M5iii. It weighs 15.9 ounces (450g) WITHOUT the lens. If you attach a Oly 12-200mm F3.5-6.3 lens that ADDS an additional 16 ounces (455g). The total weight of this combo is slightly more than the FZ1000ii which you feel is "too heavy". Also, at the max equiv. zoom (400mm) the FZ1000ii has a much faster lens (but a slightly smaller sensor.

You don't mention what type of photography requires the smaller weight/size. For me personally, the smallest, lightest, and most versatile pocketable camera is the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 VII which has a 1 inch sensor and a 24-200 zoom at f/2.8-4.5. It takes great shots and I often carry it along with my Oly/Panasonic cameras/lenses. Actually, the price of a new E-M5iii + a reasonable llens may cost more than a new RX100VII

Don't get me wrong ... I think m4/3 offers many great smaller/lighter options and that, in large part, is why I mostly use m4/3 system for my photography. But having a great pocket camera like the Sony RX100 is a very useful and easy to carry companion for my m4/3 equipment.

Just my two cents (0.019 Euros) ...

- Simon

 

[uniball]

Judging by your history of dissatisfaction with a large number of different cameras you won't be happy with whatever camera is recommended here.

It's possibly true as I think my ideal camera doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong I didn't hate those cameras just didn't keep them long enough. I'll need to settle on a comprise of some sort.

There's nothing wrong with that. We'd still be riding in horse drawn wagons if it wasn’t for people like you. Thank you.

 

[scphoto]

I've just sold my FZ1000 II. The view finder was excellent, but found I wasn't taking it enough to places as it's too big. I don't mind big if I'm going to an airshow or a zoo, but I don't always want it that big and heavy.

I want to return to M43 after trying a Sony A6000, but not really getting on with the handling or EVF. I've previously owned lots of M43 cameras - GX800, GX85, GX7, GX9, OM-D EM10 II, PEN E-PL9. I haven't been convinced by the view finder on any of those, to the point that I never used to use it.

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera. Has the viewfinder improved on the EM10 III or IV over the II?

Are the EM5 II, III, or even GX8 or original EM1 I worth looking at?

Disdain -

You say that you want to get a new camera PRIMARILY because your FZ1000ii is too "big and heavy". That camera (with a 24-400 mm lens and a 1 inch sensor) weights 28.5 ounces (808g). One of the smaller m4/3 recommended was the Oly E-M5iii. It weighs 15.9 ounces (450g) WITHOUT the lens. If you attach a Oly 12-200mm F3.5-6.3 lens that ADDS an additional 16 ounces (455g). The total weight of this combo is slightly more than the FZ1000ii which you feel is "too heavy". Also, at the max equiv. zoom (400mm) the FZ1000ii has a much faster lens (but a slightly smaller sensor.

You don't mention what type of photography requires the smaller weight/size. For me personally, the smallest, lightest, and most versatile pocketable camera is the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 VII which has a 1 inch sensor and a 24-200 zoom at f/2.8-4.5. It takes great shots and I often carry it along with my Oly/Panasonic cameras/lenses. Actually, the price of a new E-M5iii + a reasonable llens may cost more than a new RX100VII

Don't get me wrong ... I think m4/3 offers many great smaller/lighter options and that, in large part, is why I mostly use m4/3 system for my photography. But having a great pocket camera like the Sony RX100 is a very useful and easy to carry companion for my m4/3 equipment.

Just my two cents (0.019 Euros) ...

- Simon

I don't mind the fz1000 size but didn't always want that size if I'm taking it where I don't need a massive zoom range. That's why going back to mirrorless is my best option. Anything pocketable is pointless for me now as phone is my small compact.

Disdain -

I agree that today's smart phones take great shots. They are especially good for closeups and portraits. Very importantly, most of us carry one with all at all times. There's the old saying "The best camera is the one you have with you when you want to take a photo.". This certainly applies to smart phones.

I'm not going to try to do a side by side image comparison of the Sony RX100 with my iPhone. But take a look at the sensor sizes: The largest of the three iPhone 13 sensor has an area about 44mm, while the 1" sensor is 108mm in area. Yes, a larger sensor and more megapixels won't guarantee better photos than a smartphone, but I think it helps.

HOWEVER ... I believe that you won't find a m4/3 or a camera that uses at least a 1" that is both lighter/smaller and takes better photos than the Sony RX100. My RX100VI weights about 11 oz. (300g) which is almost exactly what my iPhone weights. It's about the size of a package of cigarettes. The newer RX100VII has a 24-200mm equiv. zoom with f/2.8-4.5 and flip screen.

Being a m4/3 fan (like me) doesn't mean that one shouldn't consider other brands/formats if they better fit one's needs.

Good luck ...

- Simon

 

[Adrian Harris]

Definitely the GX8.

It's got a superb viewfinder... and it tilts!

It's my small go to camera when I don't want to carry the bigger and heavier m43 cameras.

20mp and solid. Batteries always good for well over 1,000 shots (frequently 1,600-1,800).

Miner's 7 years old and I still grab it frequently when not wanting to carry my om-1 or Em1-Mk2, ...which are both much bulkier and heavier!

 

[patticake]

Definitely the GX8.

It's got a superb viewfinder... and it tilts!

It's my small go to camera when I don't want to carry the bigger and heavier m43 cameras.

20mp and solid. Batteries always good for well over 1,000 shots (frequently 1,600-1,800).

Miner's 7 years old and I still grab it frequently when not wanting to carry my om-1 or Em1-Mk2, ...which are both much bulkier and heavier!

the GX8 weighs in at 1.07 lb / 17.18 oz without a lens (according to dpreview), where the FZ1000 ii weighs in at 1.78 lb / 28.50 oz but the lens is built in. you'll need a lens under 11 ounces to keep the GX8 lighter weight than the FZ1000 ii, which is the camera the OP felt was too heavy.

 

[uniball]

I've just sold my FZ1000 II. The view finder was excellent, but found I wasn't taking it enough to places as it's too big. I don't mind big if I'm going to an airshow or a zoo, but I don't always want it that big and heavy.

I want to return to M43 after trying a Sony A6000, but not really getting on with the handling or EVF. I've previously owned lots of M43 cameras - GX800, GX85, GX7, GX9, OM-D EM10 II, PEN E-PL9. I haven't been convinced by the view finder on any of those, to the point that I never used to use it.

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera. Has the viewfinder improved on the EM10 III or IV over the II?

Are the EM5 II, III, or even GX8 or original EM1 I worth looking at?

Disdain -

You say that you want to get a new camera PRIMARILY because your FZ1000ii is too "big and heavy". That camera (with a 24-400 mm lens and a 1 inch sensor) weights 28.5 ounces (808g). One of the smaller m4/3 recommended was the Oly E-M5iii. It weighs 15.9 ounces (450g) WITHOUT the lens. If you attach a Oly 12-200mm F3.5-6.3 lens that ADDS an additional 16 ounces (455g). The total weight of this combo is slightly more than the FZ1000ii which you feel is "too heavy". Also, at the max equiv. zoom (400mm) the FZ1000ii has a much faster lens (but a slightly smaller sensor.

You don't mention what type of photography requires the smaller weight/size. For me personally, the smallest, lightest, and most versatile pocketable camera is the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 VII which has a 1 inch sensor and a 24-200 zoom at f/2.8-4.5. It takes great shots and I often carry it along with my Oly/Panasonic cameras/lenses. Actually, the price of a new E-M5iii + a reasonable llens may cost more than a new RX100VII

Don't get me wrong ... I think m4/3 offers many great smaller/lighter options and that, in large part, is why I mostly use m4/3 system for my photography. But having a great pocket camera like the Sony RX100 is a very useful and easy to carry companion for my m4/3 equipment.

Just my two cents (0.019 Euros) ...

• Simon

I don't mind the fz1000 size but didn't always want that size if I'm taking it where I don't need a massive zoom range. That's why going back to mirrorless is my best option. Anything pocketable is pointless for me now as phone is my small compact.

Depends if your taking selfies or need more FL. I’ve done multiple several month holidays with RX100's. I can assure you my iphone 13 would not have captured the images I came back with. A substantially larger sensor and, on my m6, a 200mm eq. lens. The RX100 is smaller than the 13 with a far better (though far from ideal) grip and an easy carry on a lightweight shoulder strap where you can use it as opposed to digging it out of your pocket, while everyone else you’re with continues down the road.

m43 is an option. My 2 RX100's replaced my GX9 and a brace of primes and zooms for travel. Unless you need an FL greater than 200mm, or prefer to lug a camera bag, there’s nothing m43 can do up to ISO 1600 that an RX100 can't do. Beyond ISO 1600 Topaz closes much of the gap. But if grip is important, larger bodies are necessary.

One way to find out what you’re comfortable with is rent or the used market. Buy on KEH, sell on eBay. You might even make some money.

 

[OutsideTheMatrix]

Is the G85 as good a viewfinder as the FZ1000? I know it's still a big heavy camera.

I have both G80 (G85) and FZ1000*...

The G80 body alone is not so big and heavy compared to the FZ1000?

It's your choice of lens that will determine whether it's bigger/heavier or smaller/lighter overall...

As for the viewfinders, I personally find them very similar. Which I guess is not surprising given their technical specs are pretty much the same? (G80 maybe slightly higher magnification? I dunno, different sites seems to list different values for each)

BTW, G85 is 16MP sensor. If the resolution is important to you, that would be a step back vs the FZ1000's 20MP. Note that the G90 (G95) has 20MP sensor.

*I'm using a G90 instead of the G80 now though, and only using the FZ1000 for its high-speed video these days. (G90 has high speed video but no autofocus for it whatsoever - manual focus only, or use the mode dial to switch to a mode that autofocuses, then switch to movie mode to start recording. That's almost useless for my purposes, where the FZ1000 at least autofocuses until you start recording, then fixed-focus)

Yeah if I use small primes it will keep the G80 down in size, although it might look silly with small lenses attached. Do you find the G90 a big improvement over the G80? I know it's bigger again in size and weight.

In addition to the improvements mentioned by Hatstand, the G95 did incur more of a crop on 4K video than the G85 IIRC, so that might be a potential downside, the Sony 20MP sensor also handles long exposures much better than the previous gen 16MP Pana sensor tho so that's another improvement.

Is the 16 MP sensor in the EM10 II from Sony or Panny? I thought it was from Sony?

It is a Sony, the only 16MP Pana sensor that Oly ever used was a custom one-off in the original E-M1 and that one had some of the same long exposure limitations.

Is the 20 MP sensor from Sony better than that one too for long exposures? In what ways? Thanks!

All of Sony sensors (the various 16MP iterations and the two 20MP in use with very different readout rates) have the same advantage when it comes to long exposures AFAIK (versus the last 16MP Pana made). There's a good example of this in Cameralabs' E-M5 II (not III) review IIRC.

Basically the Pana sensors just show a lot more hot (bright) pixels during a long exposure, to the point where you can shoot the Sony sensor without dark frame NR and still match the results of the Pana with it. That's probably why Pana made a big increase to the max bulb times of their bodies in the GX9 & G95.

Thanks, I had always wondered about that! Do the max bulb times of Panny cameras like the GX9 and G95 now match Oly's? In my camera I think it is 20 minutes?

Not quite sure but I think it's in their respective manuals.

I noticed you also mentioned readout rates and I also wondered why the differences in electronic shutter between Olympus and Panny. Which sensor would you say is the best for using electronic shutter the most?

There might be other differences in e-shutter implemention even when they use the same sensors, since the one sensor can be configured to work a number of ways (IIRC the G9 had some differences vs say the E-M1 II depending on the ISO level)... For using a lot of e-shutter I'd want something with a faster readout regardless of bit depth etc., so the 1/60 sensors in the G9 (GH5?) / E-M5 III / E-M1 II & III, or the much faster one in the OM-1 (~1/125?).

With anything slower you're risking more rolling shutter distortion and/or light banding when using e-shutter for general shooting, which accounts for most other bodies out there without a stacked sensor (a couple Canon RF bodies w/o one can also manage ~1/60).

Thanks, so the E-M5 III has a fast enough readout speed to use electronic shutter even for BIF and fast action?