War Photographers - Let's not forget the dangers [link to PIC]

[jk]

why are the iraqi's accepting us as liberaters? is it because we love to maim people? or is it they trust us that we liberated them from saddam iron fist

Oh, well then, wonder what the problem was. Too many innocent
civilians unmamed over there maybe? Not even.

This is "the problem:"

The US economy is currently like a monopoly game when all the
properties are bought up and nobody can get anywhere.

How do we come out of all such economies: we start a war or a
destabilization program. But we only do this to small third world
countries that really can't defend themselves. (remeber the
Contras, VietNam-backfire, Nicagura, etc)

But, unfortunately, even after we obliterate that entire country of
Iraq, just to kill Saddam and his men, and we put in the people who
represent our best interests..... our economy will still STINK.

So, all these poor civilians over there will have been slaughtered
for nothing. Like there is ever a reason to justify that.

..

I have done my research. Have you done yours? So what is the answer
to Hussein? You can't just say "War is not the answer" when you
have no suggetions. How do you stop evil people from being evil?

Why don't you hear anyone talking about the WMD anylonger ? Nice
coverup. Did it now become a non-issue ? Isn't this why this war
was started in the first place ? It is time that Bush is going to
show some evidence of these weapons...that evidence "might" give
you a safer future....

We must kill to save lives
We must wage war for peace
We must use weapons of mass destruction to eliminate weapons of
mass destruction
We come in peace; we will kill the enemy
We will liberate Iraq; we will occupy Iraq
We want to protect Iraq by disarming it
We will install democracy in Iraq
We are circumventing the UN to uphold UN resolutions
The war is going as planned --it might take longer than expected
Surgical strikes kill innocents
Bin Laden is a freedom-fighter (1980s); Bin laden is a terrorist
(2001)
Saddam is a ally (during Iran-Iraq war); Saddam is an enemy (post
Iran-Iraq war)

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

 

[jwilliams]

I think you should do your own research before you blame others of
ignorance. People that are for peace are not stupid, we know that
Saddam is killing people, but so are a dozen other dictators in the
world. The problem is that war is NOT the answer. People who are
for peace still have hope that we can fall out of this brutal loop.
And this hope isn't entirely unfounded. It is possible, you can see
it when you make someone smile.

I have done my research. Have you done yours? So what is the answer
to Hussein? You can't just say "War is not the answer" when you
have no suggetions. How do you stop evil people from being evil?

why we are fighting this war:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4822750

Hate to beat a dead horse, but there may be new people watching. From your referenced post, in your own words:

"The first falacious assumption that you have made is that getting a handle on terrorism is possible. Unfortunately this is not true."

The idea that we should just sit idle while terrorists kill innocent people is appalling.

War is bad. Innocent people get killed in wars. It is ugly. I wish we could wave a magic wand and do away with war, but to do that you have to do away with terrorists and brutal dictators first. Waving a magic wand will not do that.

You are simply not being rational.

--
Jonathan

 

[jwilliams]

acknowledging that at times war is the ONLY alternative.

I suggest you do some reading to broaden your incredibly narrow
horizon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0807059099/qid=1049848838/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-4340861-5174420

Regards
Stefan

Ghandi was a great man with great ideas. Unfortunately Saddam would have killed him in a heartbeat.

It was a different type of opressor he was fighting against. Not as brutal as Saddam. Not trying to justify anything that happened to the Indian people, but his approach would not work in Iraq. Different situation.

--
Jonathan

 

[jwilliams]

There's room for both idealism and pragmatism.

Idealism shows you states we should strive for, but doesn't say
anything about how to achieve that state. While a utopia is
unattainable, that doesn't mean it's an invalid goal. You just
need to try to achieve something as close to the ideal as possible.

Pragmatism deals with processes. How do you get from one state to
another? It doesn't tell you what states are good to strive for.
While some processes are unpalatable (e.g. war), if they end up
arriving at a state much improved from where you began, they are
often worth it.

The two work together to change the world for the better. Do not
make the mistake of using only idealism to critique a process, nor
only pragmatism to critique a state.

One of the better posts on this topic. Reach for your ideals while keeping you feet firmly planted in reality. Not a bad idea.

--
Jonathan

 

[Burke Churchill]

Ghandi's expression of peaceful resistance wouldn't have worked against Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc., but only worked where Western ideas of fair play and the rule of law had penetrated. Paul Johnson in his excellent "Modern Times" demonstrated this point adroitly.

acknowledging that at times war is the ONLY alternative.

I suggest you do some reading to broaden your incredibly narrow
horizon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0807059099/qid=1049848838/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-4340861-5174420

Regards
Stefan

Ghandi was a great man with great ideas. Unfortunately Saddam
would have killed him in a heartbeat.

It was a different type of opressor he was fighting against. Not
as brutal as Saddam. Not trying to justify anything that happened
to the Indian people, but his approach would not work in Iraq.
Different situation.

--
Jonathan

--

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

 

[Burke Churchill]

mccane's solitary ambition to: "GET RICH" And of course in the mean time he will hate all those better than he. That's an awful lot of hating Mr. mccane. What a glorious aspiration to define oneself by - getting rich! Not being a better human being, just simply getting rich. I suspect Mr. mccane will change this in the hopes that we forget the crassness of his shallow ambitions.

sums up mccanes existance ... proffesion =loafing

"Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or sister, dipwadd.
I'm sure he'll understand."

Watch CNN long enough and you'll see the segment. (miraculously,
between all the purple heart announcements) Could that toasted,
armless, familyless 12 yr old be your son? Would you care? Guess
not.

You and the other deathmonger thread buddy can wallow in the
various propaganda BS all you want. And, I'm sure you will.

The fact is, if a regime change needs to take place, and certain
evil people need to be killed, for the betterment of the rest of
the world's community, there certainly must be a better way than
dropping four 4,000lb bunker buster bombs onto a residential
building where you think this one asswhipe is hiding.

Wow, what sophistication, what intelligence: About like yours and
your buddy's on this thread.

You two are pethetic if you think killing/maiming innocent young
people can ever be justified, under ANY circumstances. Nobody did
this to you and you're still here, spouting off, getting FAT and
typing with all ten of your chubby fingers....crying about your
precious little cameras. And playing armchair politician.

Geeze.

Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or sister, dipwadd. I'm
sure he'll understand.

IGNORANCE!

It's ignorant respones like this that I find sad. Yes, of course,
it's horrible that people are dying and being mangled in the war.
But far more lives are being saved.... "Tell that to the kid..."
Are you serious? What should have been said to the 60,000 people
Hussein gased in 1986 in Halabja? What should have been said to the
million Iraqi soilders sacraficed by Hussein when he waged war
against Iran (just as many Iranians died)? And how about the
thousands of Kuwait killed by the Iraqi army invasion just over a
decade years ago? What do you tell them?

I guess the world should stand by and do nothing more than
excercise diplomacy. (yeah, diplomacy with a guy who shoots a gun
in the air during every other public sppech.) Diplomacy never
worked. From the moment Hussein's army retreated from Kuwait over a
decade ago, he refused to meet rational terms set by the UN. 16 UN
resolutions and numerous sanctions later, he was still hiding
banned weapons. Moreover, he continued to use terror and inhumanity
to run his country -- while at the same time various European
countries continued to court questionable business deals with the
regime.

So, I ask you, what do you tell the families of the thousands
killed by Hussein's regime? Do you tell them, "Sorry, we are going
to continue playing diplomatic games with him because we're affraid
we might hurt one child in an effort to stop a regime that has
killed thousands, a regime that has been proven (not suspected) to
support terrorists, a regime that is responsible for starving to
death hundreds of thousands of children?" Get real.

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

--

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

 

[Burke Churchill]

Tom, I like you a lot. But trying to reason with these guys is a lost cause. They are impervious to your kind well reasoned efforts. Smoody tried to drag me into a "discussion" in which he would merely have vented his rather prodigious spleen all the while congratulating himself for his moral superiority. These guys who would defend the bogus sovereignty of a despot hiding behind their pacifism all the while proclaiming their moral superiority cannot be reasoned with. The truth, as I'm sure you are aware is simple. They are wrong. The delirious cheering of the Iraqi people has made a mockery of their rather conspicuous display of moral superiority. These guys are at the very best hypocrites. At worst they are actively complicit in undermining millions who yearn for freedom. But, they proclaim proudly, you cannot free them all so why free anyone? This is the argument of a people who have lost the will to survive. Mccane has proclaimed that his solitary ambition or plan is to get rich. Does that not speak volumes?

How is ending a regime responsible for millions of deaths not
making a difference?

--

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

 

[MisterGuru]

Whatever.... but it makes me wonder. I didn't get an email or anything from whatever censor decided that my message was unworthy but this thread is worthy.

I just wanted to alert others that people like us were really dying too.

I am glad the people are liberated, perhaps they can now speak free. I thought I could but some UNNAMED, NO-FACE person has removed my similar message.

not trolling, not flaming, that is just what really happened.

See you next time I get bored (because this forum is already in worse ruin than Iraq).

 

[mccance]

Enjoying the news are you?

When they took down that statue in the middle of the city, there were about 100-200 people out there. There are over 4 million people in Baghdad.

You do the math.

That said, I never said they did not need liberating from Saddam. I said they did. What I said is the tactics are bullsh*t. Leveling the city to get at one man.

What, you like armless little boys or something?

Get real.

why are the iraqi's accepting us as liberaters? is it because we
love to maim people? or is it they trust us that we liberated them
from saddam iron fist

 

[mccance]

jk

you're a little late to this party but it never hurts to sprikle through the whole thread at the last minute and see how many enemies you can make

from what you have written here, I must summize that you are the Village Idiot.

Not one piece of relevant info from you. Anywhere.

you can have the last stab because I'm not wasting any additional time on you

make it a good one

rm

 

[mccance]

you people are so stupid: Burke and jk

All I did was say it's bad to burn a 10 year old boy and take his arms off.

And now, Burke and jk, have totally figured me out.

This is too good. You people need to get out more. maybe have your butt kicked by somebody really large. Do something!

wow

rm

sums up mccanes existance ... proffesion =loafing

"Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or sister, dipwadd.
I'm sure he'll understand."

Watch CNN long enough and you'll see the segment. (miraculously,
between all the purple heart announcements) Could that toasted,
armless, familyless 12 yr old be your son? Would you care? Guess
not.

You and the other deathmonger thread buddy can wallow in the
various propaganda BS all you want. And, I'm sure you will.

The fact is, if a regime change needs to take place, and certain
evil people need to be killed, for the betterment of the rest of
the world's community, there certainly must be a better way than
dropping four 4,000lb bunker buster bombs onto a residential
building where you think this one asswhipe is hiding.

Wow, what sophistication, what intelligence: About like yours and
your buddy's on this thread.

You two are pethetic if you think killing/maiming innocent young
people can ever be justified, under ANY circumstances. Nobody did
this to you and you're still here, spouting off, getting FAT and
typing with all ten of your chubby fingers....crying about your
precious little cameras. And playing armchair politician.

Geeze.

Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or sister, dipwadd. I'm
sure he'll understand.

IGNORANCE!

It's ignorant respones like this that I find sad. Yes, of course,
it's horrible that people are dying and being mangled in the war.
But far more lives are being saved.... "Tell that to the kid..."
Are you serious? What should have been said to the 60,000 people
Hussein gased in 1986 in Halabja? What should have been said to the
million Iraqi soilders sacraficed by Hussein when he waged war
against Iran (just as many Iranians died)? And how about the
thousands of Kuwait killed by the Iraqi army invasion just over a
decade years ago? What do you tell them?

I guess the world should stand by and do nothing more than
excercise diplomacy. (yeah, diplomacy with a guy who shoots a gun
in the air during every other public sppech.) Diplomacy never
worked. From the moment Hussein's army retreated from Kuwait over a
decade ago, he refused to meet rational terms set by the UN. 16 UN
resolutions and numerous sanctions later, he was still hiding
banned weapons. Moreover, he continued to use terror and inhumanity
to run his country -- while at the same time various European
countries continued to court questionable business deals with the
regime.

So, I ask you, what do you tell the families of the thousands
killed by Hussein's regime? Do you tell them, "Sorry, we are going
to continue playing diplomatic games with him because we're affraid
we might hurt one child in an effort to stop a regime that has
killed thousands, a regime that has been proven (not suspected) to
support terrorists, a regime that is responsible for starving to
death hundreds of thousands of children?" Get real.

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

--
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men
to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net

 

[mccance]

please, for the sake of everyone:

put down the thesaurus and dictionary

and shorten up these windbag posts

jeeze

it does NOT take 500 words to say what you are "attempting" to say in these posts

thanks

How is ending a regime responsible for millions of deaths not
making a difference?

--
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men
to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net

 

[mccance]

fantastic

now tell us all what "adroitly" means and

tell us all what you had to use THAT stupid unheard of word

thanks

Ghandi's expression of peaceful resistance wouldn't have worked
against Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc., but only worked where Western
ideas of fair play and the rule of law had penetrated. Paul
Johnson in his excellent "Modern Times" demonstrated this point
adroitly.

 

[Davidlw]

I thought that this was a photography forum.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030408/241/3qq1r.html&e=13&ncid=705

I saw this link and reflect on what is going on down in Iraq.
War is F*CKED no matter just or not. I can appreciate what people
will do to bring us a story or image. My first reaction to the
image was "Wow, thats an 1D with [insert lense]. " I totally
forgot the poor camera guy could mortally wound. Sooooo, in
reflection I guess we should all be thankful for what we have or
even don't.

Don't forget the people involved is this mess.

Just thinking out loud, sorry I could not come up with more
elequent or heartful thought...

[Yes, I argee the Regime is "bad"]

 

[mccance]

50/1.4 (my fav lens BTW):

I agree with your post. I think there are LOTs more of these armless boys, unfortunately. We won't see them on the news in America.

I think Saddam needed to go, I am just opposed to the method. A nice clean assisination of all the top brass, including him, woulda prob worked just as well.

RM

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030408/241/3qq1r.html&e=13&ncid=705

I saw this link and reflect on what is going on down in Iraq.
War is F*CKED no matter just or not. I can appreciate what people
will do to bring us a story or image. My first reaction to the
image was "Wow, thats an 1D with [insert lense]. " I totally
forgot the poor camera guy could mortally wound. Sooooo, in
reflection I guess we should all be thankful for what we have or
even don't.

Don't forget the people involved is this mess.

Just thinking out loud, sorry I could not come up with more
elequent or heartful thought...

[Yes, I argee the Regime is "bad"]

--
'Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an
accordian.' Jed Babbin 1/30/03

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net

 

[Burke Churchill]

is STILL an ignoramus! Do you understand the word ignoramus?

now tell us all what "adroitly" means and

tell us all what you had to use THAT stupid unheard of word

thanks

Ghandi's expression of peaceful resistance wouldn't have worked
against Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc., but only worked where Western
ideas of fair play and the rule of law had penetrated. Paul
Johnson in his excellent "Modern Times" demonstrated this point
adroitly.

--

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

 

[chris boar152290]

Want to know what the US is upto? Want to know who is pulling Bush's strings? Take a look at the signaturies on this statement of principle on this site link, see some familiar names?

Basically in a nutshell, Global domination, no nation shall be allowed to come close to challenging the USA economically, finanacially, or militarily. WMD, Regime change is just a smoke screen. I predict Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt are all next on the US's hit list. We have already seen the propaganda start against Syria.

Some facts for you on the main rationale for this war :

Iraq is linked to terrorism - Sorry absolutely no evidence for this, the CIA, FBI, and UK intelligence all confirm they have found no links.

WMD : After the previous weapons inspectors (UNSCOM) were withdrawn in 1998, they verifably confirmed that they had destroyed 100% of Iraq's nuclear capability, and 95% of it's chemical and biological capability. The remaining suspected 5% only had a shelf life of 5 years and is now useless sludge (see http://www.medialens.org/articles_2002/NPR_Threat_Iraq_United_States.html ).

Also the often quoted Iraqi defector Gen. Hussein Kamel backs this up that he ordered all WMD to be destroyed ( http://www.medialens.org/alerts/030228_Outrageous_Omissions.html )

Basis for Regime Change - Very noble, unfortuntely there is absolutely no basis in International law (i.e. the UN Charter), to invade a country simply to kick out the ruling authorities.

The effect of US and UK sanctions on Iraq!

UNICEF estimates put deaths "above anticipated rates" at 1M, 500K child deaths under five during the time of the sanctions. 2 senior UN officials Dennis Haliday and his sucessor Hans Von Sponeck have both resigned as heads of the Iraqi Humanitarion efforts, both reffering to the sanctions as "genocide". In 1999, 70 senators signed a letter to PRes Clinton pleading for a cessation of 'infantcide masqurading a policy'. So who is responsible for killing iraqi civilians?

Personal thoughts :

The Iraqi people should have had the right to decide their own destiny. That right was taken away from them by the Western Governments supporting the regime, and by inflicting genocidal sanctions crippling the country.

War is not the only way. POP QUIZ, what do all the following dicatators have in common? Ceausescu, Suharto, Marcos, Duvalier, Mobutu. Answer all were otherthrown by their own people.

As for Liberating Baghdad, well if the current state of 'Liberated' Afghanistan is to go by, the Iraqi's have some serious problems ahead.

Today I watched the quite moving spectacle of the Hussien statue being pulled down in the middle of Baghdad, by the US Army, and the locals cheering their 'Liberators'. I wonder how many of them appreciate they were cheering the very countries that took their liberty away in the first place?

If anyone want to discuss this with me, can I suggest we take it off the list, and email me direct on [email protected]

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Burke Churchill]

A nice clean assassination was tried twice and failed. The problem with people of your ilk is that there is ALWAYS a "better way." You utopians don't live in the real world.

Mccane, smoody, etc. here's the bottom line: As a result of the judicious use of American power more good than bad was done. The world is a better place. And what else can we ask.

I agree with your post. I think there are LOTs more of these
armless boys, unfortunately. We won't see them on the news in
America.

I think Saddam needed to go, I am just opposed to the method. A
nice clean assisination of all the top brass, including him, woulda
prob worked just as well.

RM

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030408/241/3qq1r.html&e=13&ncid=705

I saw this link and reflect on what is going on down in Iraq.
War is F*CKED no matter just or not. I can appreciate what people
will do to bring us a story or image. My first reaction to the
image was "Wow, thats an 1D with [insert lense]. " I totally
forgot the poor camera guy could mortally wound. Sooooo, in
reflection I guess we should all be thankful for what we have or
even don't.

Don't forget the people involved is this mess.

Just thinking out loud, sorry I could not come up with more
elequent or heartful thought...

[Yes, I argee the Regime is "bad"]

--
'Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an
accordian.' Jed Babbin 1/30/03

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net

--

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

 

[Forrest41926]

Were it not for wars such as this more grotesque injustices would
be the order of the day. More than any of the post cold-war wars
this one will contribute to the establishment of a recognizable
gradient of power for good in the world.

One of the most grotesque injustices in recent history would have to be Stalin killing 25 to 30 million of his own people. Countries like the US and UK had very little to say about this, in the same era when they put an end to Hitler's "Final Solution," which killed 8 to 11 million people.

One of the more grotesque injustices going on today is in Isreal and Palestine. Looking back a few years, I think Indonesia should be counted, no...? But again the US/UK show very little interest. Apparently Iraq, Afghanistan, and Bosnia have more "grotesque" injustices, albeit on a dramatically smaller scale...?

Do you honestly believe war is used to end injustice?

Isn't the official reason behind the war in Iraq not about injustice, but about the possibility that Iraq might have short-range chemical weapons? Isn't this funny, seeing as how North Korea seems to have long-range nuclear weapons ... and no one seems interested?

 

[mccance]

what .. did that hit a chord? Is "adroitly" your favorite word?

Anyway, back to the subject:

What do you think of the 24-70L? There seems to be some disagreement here on that lens. All the pics I have seen with it are pretty darn good though.

Paul Popes last see-thru bikini shoot was done with the 24-70 and those looked pretty darn colorful and sharp to me.

Thoughts?

RM

now tell us all what "adroitly" means and

tell us all what you had to use THAT stupid unheard of word

thanks

Ghandi's expression of peaceful resistance wouldn't have worked
against Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc., but only worked where Western
ideas of fair play and the rule of law had penetrated. Paul
Johnson in his excellent "Modern Times" demonstrated this point
adroitly.

--
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men
to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill

--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net