So is NEX Sonys answer

I'd say its a huge step past the PEN.
Huge step ? It looks like a step up thanks to better high iso and movie, but that's more-less expected to come with time, it was nearly year ago PEN was introduced.
It is a step that the Oly Pen cannot answer. The Oly Pen has maxed out on sensor size. The NEX mount is big enough for a full frame. It is a stupid mistake on Oly's part. They had a chance to break free of the 4/3 prison, but chose not to.
I seriously doubt Sony will release a NEX camera with a 24x36mm sensor at any point in the perceivable future. The lenses would be so large that for the most part it would defeat the purpose (and no you can't compare it to rangefinders, since autofocus, zooms and anything beyond the short telephoto range is essentially nonexistent there).
It is for sure answer to m43 formats and sony saw the opportunity for more sales.

Other companies will do as well, Canon, nikon, they all seems not concerned while hard working on their own mirorless slr formats.
I wonder what these other guys will do. Will they restrict the size of the sensor in the mirrorless cameras, or would they follow Sony's footsteps. Further, the mirrorless concept is also a good idea for any company to get into medium format. Canon and Nikon can conceivably release medium format mirrorless cameras to compete with the Leica S2.
Some of the patents Nikon has recently filed suggest that they might be using a 17mm sensor. That being roughly equivalent to a 2.5x crop of the 135 full frame.
 
on the kit lens, mainly because the sensor takes better advantage of the sweet spot in the center, vs. the APS cameras.

Not only that but the Zuiko lenses are just really well done. Take a look at the 14-42mm 4/3 lens review at http://www.photozone.de

Tis a stellar performance.

Pentax did well with the 18-55mm II, and so has Canon with their 2nd generation kit lens. Sony's 18-55mm SAM also does well. Of the three the Pentax has a slight advantage overall, but its a tight competition there.

C

From Klaus's Review:

"The mechnical quality of the Zuiko is pretty good - it's an all-plastic construction but it's tightly manufactured with no wobbling parts. The AF is speedy and accurate both in "standard" AF as well as in LiveView AF mode. Regarding the output quality of the lens the price/performance ratio is simply outstanding!

Optical Quality:
Mechanical Quality: Price/Performance: "
--
http://www.CarlGarrardPhotography.com
http://www.AlphaMountWorld.com
 
If they were to try and make a fullframe camera in the emount, then you'd need whole new lenses.

Thus the NEX series is "trapped in the prison" of APS-C as much as any MFT camera is "Trapped".

The idea that you're going to be able to go buy a full frame NEX in a couple years is absurd nonsense.

Sony did a great thing getting APS-C working with such a very short flange-back distance.

These lenses are engineering marvels.

No need to talk about full frame sensors and bash MFT for using MFT sensors (especially based on the claim that they're trapped while sony can somehow bend the laws of physics and not be trapped)
 
....the retractable version that is - does not fare quite as good.

"The Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 ED is relatively good match for the E-P1 but don't expect a stellar lens. The delivered resolution ... lacks greatness towards the borders and at the long end of the zoom range. A strength of the lens is the lack of vignetting. The M.Zuiko suffers from a moderate degree of lateral CAs which doesn't seem to be corrected for whatever reason. When analyzing uncorrected RAW files the distortions are quite extreme at 14mm but mainstream users will only experience moderate distortions in their (corrected) images here.

The lens construction is a bit debatable. It's a retractable lens, or in other words - you need to set into its working mode prior of being able to take images with it. Size-wise this is an advantage when packing the lens into your back but the handling isn't really perfect. A bit more problematic is the build quality of the lens - the inner lens tube is very shaky and only a shadow of the quality that we're used to from Olympus DSLR lenses (classic 4/3 system) . All-in-all a lens which has been primarily optimized for compactness and a low price tag."

full review at

http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/452-oly_m1442_3556?start=2
--
Ralf
http://RalfRalph.smugmug.com/
 
yes, fully agree as a former 707/717 owner (still use the 717 for infrared photography and love the ergonomics of the camera). The NEX offers most of the things that were missing from the F-series. It is a bit light on user control and optics quality for me, but both issues can be addressed in future with upgrades or new models.

Regarding lack of user control: the 707 and 717 were a bit light in that department as well, compared to the competition from those days (e.g. high end Nikons and Canon G-series). But the automatic functions of the camera were so good that I did not really miss it (e.g. focus, exposure and white balance on the 717 is generally more reliable than on my Canon 450D).

hoping for some decently priced NEX Zeiss optics in the near future ...
 
Olympus Pen (Would say M4/3):
  • Prefer the retro Styling and conventional buttons, looks and feel more solid
  • Small mount and small lenses, serves the purpose
  • With smaller mount, you can gear up to more versatile lenses.
  • Mature system with more lens options, loads of firmware fixed nearly all the issues
  • M4/3 got big enough sensor, for clean photos from base ISO to ISO 400 for many of us. I prefer wider apperture over up ISO.
  • If High ISO performance is the key reruirement don't need to stuck with APS-C system.
  • Love olympus image stabilisation for my prime/macro lenses and excellent big EVF, sterio sound capture, physical mode dials, flash hotshoe on GH1.
  • Very well tested platform.
  • 20mm prime is much better with wider 1.7 apperture than 16mm with 2.8mm.
Sony NEX:
  • I love the sweep panaroma, HDR, image stacking, 3d images and other sony gadgetry.
Questions on Sony NEX:
  • But a big question on above all is: If Panaroma and HDR capture will be in RAW? if not ... I will prefer new sony compacts with Exmore Sensors, atleast they are cheap and easy to cary??
  • If the video will be as good as Pany: autofocus in continuous mode (new touch auto in G2) and unlimited duration.
Still Missing in both:
  • GPS/Geo Tagging
I would keep my Pen1 and Pany GH1 combi. I can take Panaromas with my tripod not as seemless but atleast on higher resolution.

But we need to see IQ and proper comparision from production quality cameras, with all possible bug fixes, its too early to decide about the actual decision.

Even with my two M4/3 I can consider buying NEX-5 with 16mm if panaroma and hdr will be in raw, and can capture movies of unlimited duration.
 
  • With smaller mount, you can gear up to more versatile lenses.
? with smaller mount and relatively large flange-back distance as on m43, you can NEVER add lenses that need a big mount (like certain WA or very bright design) or short distance to the sensor (e.g. retrofocus designs like some Leica lenses). With a big mount with short flange-back you can use basically any lens. The NEX mount is FAR more flexible than m43!

The only disadvantage is that for some NEX lenses additional tubing may be necessary, which increases the weight of the lens (might be an issue if you carry several tele/zoom lenses, not the typical NEX user). In theory m43 could have lightweight/compact lenses, but IMHO this is a big disappointment until now; most of the really good lenses are not much smaller than similar APS-C lenses. We will have to see in practice, probably m43 and NEX lenses will overlap significantly in size/weight.
  • 20mm prime is much better with wider 1.7 apperture than 16mm with 2.8mm.
the Panny is better yes, but this is the wrong comparison ... the panny is a standard lens instead of the Sony that is an (ultra)wide; totally different lenses. The Sony 16mm does look similar in quality to the Oly 2.8/17 which still is only moderate WA.
But we need to see IQ and proper comparision from production quality cameras, with all possible bug fixes, its too early to decide about the actual decision.
agree; at this moment m43 has an advantage in IQ because they have a mature system where some excellent lenses are available (although usually with a hefty price tag); but there are also lenses that are pretty mediocre and still expensive. Theoretically NEX should have higher image quality because of the bigger sensor; if Sony can capitalize on this will depend mostly on lens quality.
 
  • With smaller mount, you can gear up to more versatile lenses.
? with smaller mount and relatively large flange-back distance as on m43, you can NEVER add lenses that need a big mount (like certain WA or very bright design) or short distance to the sensor (e.g. retrofocus designs like some Leica lenses). With a big mount with short flange-back you can use basically any lens. The NEX mount is FAR more flexible than m43!
This not my point, to carrying other manufacturers on 4/3 mount. Even in that case, there are more adapters to m4/3 than any other camera-lens system. You can have Nikon, Canon, Leica, bigger 4/3, Pentax any available mount. They wont be good on Wide angle end, due to bigger crop factor 2x vs 1.5/1.6/1.7 x at different mounts, but they will work. And even in that sense, it will give the far tele end advantage. My only complain is auto-focusing is not available in such system, but it wont be available via any adapter to any system at all.

My actual point was, the lenses are carrying better focal length range. I have yet to see a true 7-14mm lens like pany made in any other system with this much range. Compacts have even better range like 26 mm - 676 mm on Pentax X90. The compact sensor allows them to make 26x lens. Can you point on any SLR lens upto 20x range? 14-140 pany is another extreme example, the lens does so well on so many fronts, such a low distortion and well controlled, can you expact it from Canon or Nikon super zoom or even from Sigma/Tamron bank?

Yes 4/3 has fewer lenses but still much more than newly E-mount, so we are comparing here about these two E or 4/3. and all the lenses are very good in their camps.

This different lenses preferences for different sensors is the reason Ricoh GR got different sensors with different lenses. Because you can sometime make better lens (focal length versatality) with smaller sensors.
The only disadvantage is that for some NEX lenses additional tubing may be necessary, which increases the weight of the lens (might be an issue if you carry several tele/zoom lenses, not the typical NEX user). In theory m43 could have lightweight/compact lenses, but IMHO this is a big disappointment until now; most of the really good lenses are not much smaller than similar APS-C lenses. We will have to see in practice, probably m43 and NEX lenses will overlap significantly in size/weight.
The only disappointment to me on 4/3 is there tele lenses, very limited. Sigma for four third is good option but I had to buy a lens adapter but still not very satisfied because they don't auto-focus, which is pain for live subjects. One day when pany or oly will release some 70-200 f2.8 lens, all my needs will be fulfilled.

Now which other area in lens disappoints you? 1.7f 20mm? 7-14mm f4? 14-140mm? to me they are excellent in their camps and no other reaches close to them. I have used Canikon before and I know what am saying here.

And they are extremely light weight as compare to full-frame or APSc lenses, there should be no debate on that.

Have you seen Sony E-lens mount on NEX? these are bigger than their bodies?

14-140 still balanced so well on GH1, can you imagine the sony slimmest and lightest camera carrying its future coming 11x ?? look how odd it looks with the standard kit.
  • 20mm prime is much better with wider 1.7 apperture than 16mm with 2.8mm.
the Panny is better yes, but this is the wrong comparison ... the panny is a standard lens instead of the Sony that is an (ultra)wide; totally different lenses. The Sony 16mm does look similar in quality to the Oly 2.8/17 which still is only moderate WA.
sony is 16mm on APSc and Pany is 20mm on 4/3?
20 x 2 = 40
16 x 1.5 = 28 [updated]

yes sony is moderately wide but that means sony won't see any true portrait lens? thats shame ... for how long? well the camera is not released yet .. but I doubt the sweep panaroma will work well with distorted wide angles ... it didn't on compacts in that wide angle range...
But we need to see IQ and proper comparision from production quality cameras, with all possible bug fixes, its too early to decide about the actual decision.
agree; at this moment m43 has an advantage in IQ because they have a mature system where some excellent lenses are available (although usually with a hefty price tag); but there are also lenses that are pretty mediocre and still expensive. Theoretically NEX should have higher image quality because of the bigger sensor; if Sony can capitalize on this will depend mostly on lens quality.
 
  • With smaller mount, you can gear up to more versatile lenses.
? with smaller mount and relatively large flange-back distance as on m43, you can NEVER add lenses that need a big mount (like certain WA or very bright design) or short distance to the sensor (e.g. retrofocus designs like some Leica lenses). With a big mount with short flange-back you can use basically any lens. The NEX mount is FAR more flexible than m43!
This not my point, to carrying other manufacturers on 4/3 mount. Even in that case, there are more adapters to m4/3 than any other camera-lens system. You can have Nikon, Canon, Leica, bigger 4/3, Pentax any available mount. They wont be good on Wide angle end, due to bigger crop factor 2x vs 1.5/1.6/1.7 x at different mounts, but they will work. And even in that sense, it will give the far tele end advantage. My only complain is auto-focusing is not available in such system, but it wont be available via any adapter to any system at all.

My actual point was, the lenses are carrying better focal length range. I have yet to see a true 7-14mm lens like pany made in any other system with this much range. Compacts have even better range like 26 mm - 676 mm on Pentax X90. The compact sensor allows them to make 26x lens. Can you point on any SLR lens upto 20x range? 14-140 pany is another extreme example, the lens does so well on so many fronts, such a low distortion and well controlled, can you expact it from Canon or Nikon super zoom or even from Sigma/Tamron bank?

Yes 4/3 has fewer lenses but still much more than newly E-mount, so we are comparing here about these two E or 4/3. and all the lenses are very good in their camps.

This different lenses preferences for different sensors is the reason Ricoh GR got different sensors with different lenses. Because you can sometime make better lens (focal length versatality) with smaller sensors.
The only disadvantage is that for some NEX lenses additional tubing may be necessary, which increases the weight of the lens (might be an issue if you carry several tele/zoom lenses, not the typical NEX user). In theory m43 could have lightweight/compact lenses, but IMHO this is a big disappointment until now; most of the really good lenses are not much smaller than similar APS-C lenses. We will have to see in practice, probably m43 and NEX lenses will overlap significantly in size/weight.
The only disappointment to me on 4/3 is there tele lenses, very limited. Sigma for four third is good option but I had to buy a lens adapter but still not very satisfied because they don't auto-focus, which is pain for live subjects. One day when pany or oly will release some 70-200 f2.8 lens, all my needs will be fulfilled.

Now which other area in lens disappoints you? 1.7f 20mm? 7-14mm f4? 14-140mm? to me they are excellent in their camps and no other reaches close to them. I have used Canikon before and I know what am saying here.

And they are extremely light weight as compare to full-frame or APSc lenses, there should be no debate on that.

Have you seen Sony E-lens mount on NEX? these are bigger than their bodies?

14-140 still balanced so well on GH1, can you imagine the sony slimmest and lightest camera carrying its future coming 11x ?? look how odd it looks with the standard kit.
  • 20mm prime is much better with wider 1.7 apperture than 16mm with 2.8mm.
the Panny is better yes, but this is the wrong comparison ... the panny is a standard lens instead of the Sony that is an (ultra)wide; totally different lenses. The Sony 16mm does look similar in quality to the Oly 2.8/17 which still is only moderate WA.
sony is 16mm on APSc and Pany is 20mm on 4/3?
20 x 2 = 40
16 x 1.5 = 28 [updated]

yes sony is moderately wide but that means sony won't see any true portrait lens? thats shame ... for how long? well the camera is not released yet .. but I doubt the sweep panaroma will work well with distorted wide angles ... it didn't on compacts in that wide angle range...
sorry my math is messy now ... its 24mm equivalent ... how you are suppose to get a decent sweep panaroma here?

If there is any standard portrait lens lineup for sony? I guess not ... what you will do with f2.8 then?
But we need to see IQ and proper comparision from production quality cameras, with all possible bug fixes, its too early to decide about the actual decision.
agree; at this moment m43 has an advantage in IQ because they have a mature system where some excellent lenses are available (although usually with a hefty price tag); but there are also lenses that are pretty mediocre and still expensive. Theoretically NEX should have higher image quality because of the bigger sensor; if Sony can capitalize on this will depend mostly on lens quality.
Yes I think we need to see a lot before deciding ... lenses from Sony, very limited .. how well existing will work with adapter, they says .. NO AF

How well the image sensor will perform, I am not impressed with Sony Alpha series under A700. Is it a new sensor???
 
Well now, that is really impressive ...
Let's see how it will end up in the real practical world ...
Like how much the super adapter will cost and availability etc ...

Thanks for sharing this
 
Well now, that is really impressive ...
Let's see how it will end up in the real practical world ...
Like how much the super adapter will cost and availability etc ...
Yes, that is always important. Potential means nothing if it is not taken advantage of. I assume that any Sony adapters will be expensive. Novoflex makes a bunch of adapters for m4/3 and maybe some HK places will make some and sell them on ebay though for much better prices. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
Well now, that is really impressive ...
Let's see how it will end up in the real practical world ...
Like how much the super adapter will cost and availability etc ...
Yes, that is always important. Potential means nothing if it is not taken advantage of. I assume that any Sony adapters will be expensive. Novoflex makes a bunch of adapters for m4/3 and maybe some HK places will make some and sell them on ebay though for much better prices. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
I have even used Panasonic and Olympus official adapters on m43 cameras for 4/3 lenses and disappointed for lack of AF functionality, metering is excellent though. The link in the review shows how the NEX adapter can potentially even AF on manual lenses. and how they become brighter and wider using 0.66x adapter. That's actually something none of the 4/3 does. Well will see!
 
Fxxx series had worst noise levels though.
 
Let's face it...the kit lens on the NEX may be nicely made shiny metal, but the images say another thing. Sony is marketing the NEX as an all-in-one device, but the kit lens is of mediocre quality. Until they get some better glass, the m4/3 still have the advantage. It really is no excuse not to include a decent sharp kit lens.
Well have a look at the Pen kit lens then: From the full review at

http://www.photozone.de/...-four-thirds-lens-tests/452-oly_m1442_3556?start=2 ....

the retractable version does not fare quite good.

Quote: "The Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 ED is relatively good match for the E-P1 but don't expect a stellar lens. The delivered resolution ... lacks ... towards the borders and at the long end of the zoom range.

A strength of the lens is the lack of vignetting. The M.Zuiko suffers from a moderate degree of lateral CAs which doesn't seem to be corrected for whatever reason. When analyzing uncorrected RAW files the distortions are quite extreme at 14mm but mainstream users will only experience moderate distortions in their (corrected) images here.

The lens construction is a bit debatable. It's a retractable lens, or in other words - you need to set into its working mode prior of being able to take images with it. Size-wise this is an advantage when packing the lens into your back but the handling isn't really perfect. A bit more problematic is the build quality of the lens - the inner lens tube is very shaky and only a shadow of the quality that we're used to from Olympus DSLR lenses (classic 4/3 system) . All-in-all a lens which has been primarily optimized for compactness and a low price tag."
end quote

So lets wait and see how the NEX kit lens fares in reviews. Until then it is a kind of a wild guess to say the m4/3 has an advantage. I agree there is really no excuse not to include a decent sharp kit lens - applies to any maker.
--
Ralf
http://RalfRalph.smugmug.com/
 
we weren't talking about m/43 at that point.
Apologies for not realizing the thread was hi-jacked. Re-posted correspondingly.
 
sorry my math is messy now ... its 24mm equivalent ... how you are suppose to get a decent sweep panaroma here?

If there is any standard portrait lens lineup for sony? I guess not ... what you will do with f2.8 then?
is there any lens comparable to the Sony 2.8/16 in the m43 lineup (super compact 24mm equivalent, indeed)? None that I'm aware of, and Sony is just starting.

I don't doubt there will be other lenses later this year. Maybe Sigma is interested as well, and those who cannot wait can use Sony Alpha lenses with the adapter.
Yes I think we need to see a lot before deciding ... lenses from Sony, very limited .. how well existing will work with adapter, they says .. NO AF
wrong, it will do AF when available (only slower than NEX lenses - Sony says so.
How well the image sensor will perform, I am not impressed with Sony Alpha series under A700. Is it a new sensor???
even the preliminary tests show that NEX-3/5 has a significant advantage over m43 here, just as expected because of the difference in sensor size.
 

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