Are there still Ethics and Morals these days?

Doubtful.....and if that is not the case, then the amount being charged is not sufficient to assume a transfer of rights to the client...unless the market has become seriously degraded due to all the shoot and burn folks who claim they have not degraded the income potential in the photography business.
People who deal primarily in files have not "degraded" anything. The customers that have no interest in prints have changed things. Not degraded things; just changed things.
I am of the camp that one should sell prints. Why? because if you hand over a file to a person who is not an expert at printing...they will make prints that likely are not much better than what they could photograph themselves...and see increasingly fewer reasons to hire a pro to work for them.
What if the person doesn't want to print at all? What if they only want digital copies?
I see this as a downward spiral to oblivion for professional photography. The ones who will stay in the more successful part of this business are the ones who sell big and expensive prints...not the ones who sell files.
I disagree. I think the opposite will happen, as customer desire for prints becomes more and more rare. But only time will tell which is the case. But based on the other changes that technology has made to society over the past 10 to 20 years, I know which side I would bet on.
A couple of years ago practically everyone on this forum advocated selling files and doing away with the antiquated print model....today, there are more and more pros who are still working who are now advocating selling prints rather than files. I find this change of attitude educating....the ones still making a profit are the ones selling prints....
I am not quite convinced of the suggested cause-and-effect here. And the "more and more pros" sounds more like anecdotes and confirmation bias, as opposed to valid survey and statistical analysis. And what about comparing prints to offering other services beyond shooting and post-processing? For example: things like creating customized online albums. Also remember that many other criteria have to be taken into account, as "This person tells their customers they can't have digital copies; and this person tells their customer they can" is not the only possible difference between two different photographers and two different businesses.

What I see a lot of in this forum is people (not calling anyone out specifically; don't remember specific names anyway) that are desperately clinging to an older business model in a futile hope that it will not go away. And a big part of their approach seems to be based on not giving customers what they want, and assuming there are no competitors that will. I'm sure that will be a very successful approach. ;-)
 
But "showing" something digitally cannot be done without reproducing it. Even the methods that many don't think of as "copying" or "reproducing" (such as viewing a picture on a web page) actually involve reproduction.
 
Any evidence that the same individuals are expressing the hypocritical views? Not every individual here has the exact same views.

As for me...I would not care at all if someone (who paid me) wanted to show some of my photos off. That is entirely different to me from someone using a photo for commercial purposes so that they can avoid paying me. You honestly can't see any difference?
 
I didn't intend to hit that kid crossing the road, so all will be forgiven. Yeah, right. Intent may play a role in the punishment but has no bearing on right and wrong.
Theres a funny old joke...

"The pedestrian didn't know where they were going, so I hit him."

Get it?
 
maybe I'm confused but it doesn't seem that complicated.

1. I pay someone to take my pictures.

2. The pictures are so nice that I decided to post them up and let everyone see the pictures. My friends, neighbors, and etc.

You're telling that I can't do it. What if my pictures are 30 years old? And i scan them and then post them? How the heck would I know who shot them 30 years ago? That makes no sense to me

Common sense would say:

there is a problem if i was saying that "I took the pictures" but I'm not.

there is a problem if i was using the pics to sell a product but i'm not

there is an issue if I was using the pics for some kind of commerical gain but I'm not

there is a problem if what I'm showing is causing the photographer to loose money

how complicated is it.

I forget the photographer who took my pictures. Okay my bad but how am i breaking the "law" for using something that I paid for that i want to show off to the world? I am gaining no commerical or monetary benefit from it at all
 
I think we have to remember that social Ethics and Morals are not a stagnant constant or absolute...they "change" over time through the different generations, centuries, etc.

and that's OK...

KEV
 
People should push fair use laws even more, we can make copy's of TV shows, music, even photos if we own one copy, to me taking photos of kids and family's is for hire work.

And the law should change to turn over all rights to them images, after a few years as the photog will not be making anymore money from prints by then, the photog was paid that was for hire.

I can see wanting to sell prints that fair but that not likely to happen after a few years, so the law should be changed to let the rights turn over to the people paying for them, with so many photog's coming and going anymore this should be passed as a law.

--
My psig photos at photosig http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=169695
 
so you advocate the "charge what it is worth upfront business model"? Fine. The only problem I see is that with the capability to take their own photos that are "good enough" increasing all the time....I don't think your model will allow photographers to make enough money to make a living under your plan.

Perhaps you had noticed....the usage of professional...and I mean real professionals who have business expenses, taxes, insurance, studio overhead etc., is on the wane anyway...so you advocate a plan that raises the upfront costs to the consumer....in a market that sees fewer and fewer reasons to hire a pro....or one in which the pro loses the ability to make any money from after sales of his work by making all portraiture "work for hire" with which the photographer loses any ability to make any money from his work later.....so why not just say it...professional photography is dead, and might as well go away. Because that is what your plan would likely accomplish if it were adopted

I am sure it is true that for many....hiring a pro is out of reach financially for the product that they would be satisfied with and that in many cases they may be able to produce themselves with the technological advances in this field. The fact remains that there are those who might want to use the services of someone who actually does have the ability to deliver a better product than what they can personally produce....but...if your business model is adopted....anyone with real overhead expenses would be unable to sustain enough clients and income to sustain that professionalism and service......and the concept of full time professional photographers will die and go away.

For many...especially who visit this forum...talented in some cases amateurs, who have similar equipment and perhaps similar or even better skill sets than some pros, I can readily see that hiring a pro is of no interest to them. But for some of our society the rich, and the unskilled.....the option of having a pro available still serves a purpose...and the changes you propose would effectively remove that option from the table.

The current model was designed to encourage people to undertake creative jobs that do not have an instant financial reward and to create a middle class of artisans who would not be only full time employees of the very rich. If you look at painters and musicians from a few centuries ago...the only jobs available to them were if they had a patron who supported them ...and they basically worked FOR that person.

By granting the right to reproduction of one's work for additional profit over and above the piece that might have been created for a patron....it allowed the general public to have access to the works of artists and musicians without them being indentured to a single rich individual....it gave the artist the freedom to actually earn a living at that art, and at the same time, it opened up the access to the artist to the general public at large.

In the absence of a feudal society wherein all the townspeople owe their existence and well being to the feudal lord, this allowed the development of the middle class that is the backbone of our society today and is the reason we have the freedoms we do. Your proposal basically reverses that progress and would result in killing this profession and if extended to similar fields might kill them as well. The reason copyright exists is to allow those artisans the ability to earn a living without relying upon a single rich patron.

Richard Katris aka Chanan
 
Theoretically the internet allows distribution of content by the content creators, and makes the huge behemoth content distributors obsolete. Anyone can publish their work...and if they can be paid for it.....can make a living. In theory this cuts out the middleman distributor...gets more income to the creator at likely a lower cost to the consumer. The reality is that the distribution giants are working to remove the ownership/income potential of the created content from the creators (orphan works act) at the same time as they are gobbling up content for rock bottom prices or free because the content creators can't figure out how to make a living in the new world in which anyone can steal and redistribute content at will practically with impunity....at the same time that the distribution giants are trying to figure out effective ways to charge or at least earn a sizable income from the distribution of the content they have acquired. This effectively makes paupers out of the content creators...and will discourage the future creation of any content that can be copied easily as is now the case with most content.

It is my view that your advocacy for a "work for hire" model that would remove the ownership of the created content to a naive consumer who does not value that content, merely furthers the erosion of content value in the creative fields and the incentive for anyone to continue to try to support or enter those fields.

Games are now generating greater income than movies...why? Because the game creators have created a closed platform that is difficult to copy freely w/o buying the platform to play it on...and the individual games. They have managed to limit the ability of their consumer to copy their content for free. If the ability to do this ...and the right to...as in copyrights was removed they wouldn't be making any money either. The answer lies not in making all content free to copy, but in figuring out how to restrict the copying and access, and earn a living from the content. The big distribution giants know this and are working very hard to try to re-create a viable business model...and they will....in the mean time all the advocacy for free content is merely feeding their ability to compile lots of content for very little money...and make paupers out of content providers at the same time.

Amateurs in any field tend to do this as they do not have the perspective of the professionals working in those fields, nor a realistic view of how those businesses need to be run in order to be successful. Regrettably some pros in this field also don't realize the implications of the various business models they are adopting as a result of market pressures.

--
Richard Katris aka Chanan
 
Very well said. Lots to think about there.

I don't think many of us think of ourselves as content creators, but that is indeed what we are.

Since I sell directly to the consumer I found your bit about distribution interesting - it goes a long way to explaining the issue with stock. Why Getty is getting squeezed and why penny stock is popular - they found a way to get content for practically nothing, pass the savings on to the end user and that leaves the traditional model struggling.

Same basic problem for the music business as the internet changed distribution leaving the record companies and their business model floundering in the abyss.

I see the movie industry is very confused of late and it's getting more so as the video stores can be bypassed and with on-demand of nearly everything why buy DVDs anymore?

The future will be interesting.
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If I knew how to take a good picture I'd do it every time.
 
Well I said family photos and weddings, and after a few years it should turn over to them.

Many pro's will not touch family or weddings, there is a good reason for that it's a pit of pain, and if you didn't sell the prints to start with it's very unlikely,that after a few years they will order more prints.

Times have changed and most doing these shots give DVD's with all rights, if you want to be not changing, then deal with what is going on or change your model. The laws should keep up with the new model, for family shots and weddings as it's different then other shoots.

There are so many wedding and family photog's coming and going, there is no way to keep up with them a few years later, in many cases there are so called photog's that messed them photos. And we are not talking about them being able to make money after a few years, we are talking about them being able to use them as they wish barring making money of course.

--
My psig photos at photosig http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=169695
 
Very well said. Lots to think about there.
I see the movie industry is very confused of late and it's getting more so as the video stores can be bypassed and with on-demand of nearly everything why buy DVDs anymore?
Blockbuster!! Filed for protection. The old model of everything is seriously on the wane and those that cannot give it up will lose. We all need to rethink our positions.
The future will be interesting.
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If I knew how to take a good picture I'd do it every time.
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May the light be with you
Stop global whining
Stupid should hurt
 
throwing away copyright and ownership is not the answer. I admit that with flaky photographers coming and going....and even good photographers who die.....you need a way to legitimize the copying or usage of files later on...but handing away the copyright would just further muddy the waters with regard to any ownership of images and content of all types... There is a better way and it is here:

http://www.useplus.com/index.asp

embedded licensing information that would allow specified usages by the clients and still protect the ownership and future earning potential of the photographers....so things are improving and I think will come out OK as long as people start learning to NOT give it all away for peanuts today.....
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Richard Katris aka Chanan
 
throwing away copyright and ownership is not the answer.
Great idea. About time but I've not been paying attention. Thanks for the link.

However................all images are created equally but some are more equal than others. If you know what I mean.

I'm sure that the issues within the photographic community that useplus targets is well known and copyright is generally respected, it's the general public (and to a great extent the Third World) that are not so well informed as to usage........or doesn't respect it.

How do you educate a woman in Bumpuck Kansas and a garment manufacturer in Wenzhou Zhejiang.....and then make them care and accountable ?

--
Nick in Shanghai.
 
Rarely, but so what?

If they knew they were getting cr or hires file they'd buy less up front figuring they could do it themselves later (not everyone, but some).

The nature of the personal/social photography business is that if you want to make a buck you have to shoot a client.

Stock, fine art and some areas of photography work differently - shoot one landscape and you can sell it for decades over and over again. IF you retain copyright of course.

So the law doesn't differentiate one from the other. Fine with me.

--
If I knew how to take a good picture I'd do it every time.
 

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