I think.....

[johnnyrush]

the Speedo LZR Racer and lost to Paul Biedermann wearing the Arena X-Glide polyurethane suit.

Fortunately (or unfortunately depeding on the shoes you wear) it only matters to people at the pinnacle of their game.

Peace,
John

--

'The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. ' George Bernard Shaw

'Believe Nothing, no matter where you read it
or who has said it, not even if I have said it,
unless it agrees with your own reason and
your own common sense.' -Buddha

'This too shall pass.... (Hebrew advice to Solomon)
until that which passes is life itself' - me

 

[CharlesB58]

The main site only features images to demonstrate the capabilities of the cameras. On the other hand, they do have forums dedicated to galleries, not to mention the challenges.

It takes every kind of pee-pulll....ya da da da dee daaaa. LOL

Some gear focused people seem to resent the display of photos taken with Olympus gear. Which is odd. I've read people say that if they wanted to look at photos instead of discuss gear, they'd go to another site. Personally, I can't fathom why someone would want to discuss gear without including discussion of the images that gear produces.

Maybe a few of those people have trouble translating all that gear expertise into quality images, and so don't want to be reminded that their thousands of dollars worth of premium gear only produces snapshots in their hands?
--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[John King]

Gidday Theresa

Thanks for the kind words. I do get disheartened at times. However, I feel that my photography is actually progressing in leaps and bounds, specially over the last year, and specially with my composition (very much my weakest point, always has been ... ). My good lady wife (my harshest critic ... ) thinks so too ...

Here are two of my recent still life shots, from two perspectives and different exposure sets:





And a flower or two for you :

Pimelea physodes:



Alyogyne (Australian hibiscus):



Hope you like them ...

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php
Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction):
http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group

 

[Theresa K]

The main site only features images to demonstrate the capabilities of the cameras. On the other hand, they do have forums dedicated to galleries, not to mention the challenges.

It takes every kind of pee-pulll....ya da da da dee daaaa. LOL

Some gear focused people seem to resent the display of photos taken with Olympus gear. Which is odd. I've read people say that if they wanted to look at photos instead of discuss gear, they'd go to another site. Personally, I can't fathom why someone would want to discuss gear without including discussion of the images that gear produces.

Maybe a few of those people have trouble translating all that gear expertise into quality images, and so don't want to be reminded that their thousands of dollars worth of premium gear only produces snapshots in their hands?

Frankly, I haven't posted images here in a long time. Why? Cuz nobody cares to respond, in spite of the fact that I have some great equipment. I go to Oly Talk. They discuss technique and offer suggestions ALL THE TIME. They don't care if you are shooting with a p&s or the E-3.

When I added the 35-100 to the lineup, I kept hearing 'post some images'! WTH! You people don't want to see images, you want to argue with trolls and pixel peep.
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

 

[Theresa K]

Great color, terrific DOF. Very sharp.

Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish?

Don't let the trolls, the gear heads or the pixel peepers keep you down!
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

 

[Raist3d]

people on this forum spend WAY too much time talking about equipment and WAY too little time enjoying what they have!

We have great systems, guys... quit defending against the trolls and go out and shoot. The best defense is a good offense.

It's not about doing an offense, that's actually participating in it. It's just best to go out, shoot n' ignore.

--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

 

[Theresa K]

I'm not saying gear doesn't matter. What I AM saying is that gear without results is worthless.
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

 

[Inigo Montoya]

So when did it get decided that we would talk about equipment and not about the photos created by that equipment?

When Phil created the forum?

Click on the main Oly DSLR forum link, and right at the top it says:

Olympus SLR Talk Forum

Welcome to the Olympus SLR Talk Forum, the place to discuss Olympus SLR digital cameras, such as the E-3, E-1, E-3x0, E-4x0 and E-5x0. This forum contains 1,451,454 messages in 118,621 threads, please search before asking a question."

Also, the posting "rules" indicate that photos should be posted in the "Samples and Galleries" forum.

Now we all know that in practice that isn't how things work here, but in terms of who decided at least on paper what the forum is "for", it is a gear forum.

Ultimately though, it's the sum total of the posters that decide its content (within reasonable boundaries).

--



E-Five-Ten/E-One/E-Three-Hundred/E-Ten/C-Twenty-OneHundred-UZ/E-OneHundred-RS
DZ Eleven-TwentyTwo/DZ Fourteen-FiftyFour/DZ Fifty-TwoHundred
EC-Fourteen/FL-Fifty/FL-Forty
Oldma-cdon-aldh-adaf-arm-EI-EI-O

 

[Theresa K]

It's very different from the Oly forum I know when I was starting out with my E-300 4 years ago!!

And that's why many of us don't participate here. Sad, isn't it?
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

 

[Theresa K]

So when did it get decided that we would talk about equipment and not about the photos created by that equipment?

When Phil created the forum?

Click on the main Oly DSLR forum link, and right at the top it says:

Olympus SLR Talk Forum

Welcome to the Olympus SLR Talk Forum, the place to discuss Olympus SLR digital cameras, such as the E-3, E-1, E-3x0, E-4x0 and E-5x0. This forum contains 1,451,454 messages in 118,621 threads, please search before asking a question."

Also, the posting "rules" indicate that photos should be posted in the "Samples and Galleries" forum.

Now we all know that in practice that isn't how things work here, but in terms of who decided at least on paper what the forum is "for", it is a gear forum.

Ultimately though, it's the sum total of the posters that decide its content (within reasonable boundaries).

If we do not demonstrate what the equipment is capable of producing in real user's hands, we might as well let it sit on a shelf. And you and I both know that no one puts anything in the samples and galleries forums.
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

 

[Theresa K]

people on this forum spend WAY too much time talking about equipment and WAY too little time enjoying what they have!

We have great systems, guys... quit defending against the trolls and go out and shoot. The best defense is a good offense.

It's not about doing an offense, that's actually participating in it. It's just best to go out, shoot n' ignore.

Exactly. And if you feel like it, post what you CAN do.
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

 

[CharlesB58]

I remember reading reviews of how the E-300 produced "unuseable" shots at iso 1600.

Unusable according to whom, using which standard? I ran into a lot of this "that's unusable" stuff when I bought my first 35mm slr and visited some camera clubs. What they generally were talking about was "that image won't win a prize in the sort of competitions I enter, so it's unusable". Meanwhile, I got to know pros who were making money off the same sort of images the clubosnobs were saying were unusable.

Usability of images depends on the intended purpose, as well as the impact the image has. There is a famous image taken by Bobby Model of another climber hanging thousands of feet up on the side of a mountain. Model took it with a fairly cheap P&S. It's become an icon of adventure photography, gracing the cover of National Geographic and even used on their credit card.

I'm sure there are those who would point out how unusable it is due to the fuzzy focus, low resolution, narrow DR and general "snapshot" appearance. Yes, this is an exceptional example. However it demonstrates that what pros really concentrate on is getting an image that has impact, that conveys a message or represents the scene in a striking way. Gear and technique contribute and facilitate that, but are not an end in themselves. Often, things which make for good lab tests are disregarded in favor of evoking a certain mood, or using a camera that has a capability and feel for a specific photographer and his/her purpose that can't be quantified by test charts and specifications.

It's what Kirk Tuck meant on his blog when he talked about switching to Olympus because the cameras have "soul". Real photography is about baring the soul, either of the scene, or the photographer, or both. Even if it's just a product shot, a good photographer still endeavors to bring some sort of personal style to the image.

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[Theresa K]

I remember reading reviews of how the E-300 produced "unuseable" shots at iso 1600.

Unusable according to whom, using which standard? I ran into a lot of this "that's unusable" stuff when I bought my first 35mm slr and visited some camera clubs. What they generally were talking about was "that image won't win a prize in the sort of competitions I enter, so it's unusable". Meanwhile, I got to know pros who were making money off the same sort of images the clubosnobs were saying were unusable.

Phil and the dpreview gang said they were unuseable due to noise. I shot in low light all the time, dealt with the noise and have wonderful shots of my sons during their adolescent years playing for the band at football games and band competitions. I also had MANY band parents buy my shots, shots that they couldnt' get with their own equipment. I guess 'unuseable', like most adjectives, is relative.

Usability of images depends on the intended purpose, as well as the impact the image has. There is a famous image taken by Bobby Model of another climber hanging thousands of feet up on the side of a mountain. Model took it with a fairly cheap P&S. It's become an icon of adventure photography, gracing the cover of National Geographic and even used on their credit card.

They never specify in the reviews.

I'm sure there are those who would point out how unusable it is due to the fuzzy focus, low resolution, narrow DR and general "snapshot" appearance. Yes, this is an exceptional example. However it demonstrates that what pros really concentrate on is getting an image that has impact, that conveys a message or represents the scene in a striking way. Gear and technique contribute and facilitate that, but are not an end in themselves. Often, things which make for good lab tests are disregarded in favor of evoking a certain mood, or using a camera that has a capability and feel for a specific photographer and his/her purpose that can't be quantified by test charts and specifications.

The shots of my sons recieving their HS diplomas across the long end of a hockey arena are priceless to me. Funny, the other kid's parents all thought the same. I gave those away for free, as a courtesy.

It's what Kirk Tuck meant on his blog when he talked about switching to Olympus because the cameras have "soul". Real photography is about baring the soul, either of the scene, or the photographer, or both. Even if it's just a product shot, a good photographer still endeavors to bring some sort of personal style to the image.

But how will anyone know that if we don't show them what we are capable of?
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

 

[CharlesB58]

I'm not saying gear doesn't matter. What I AM saying is that gear without results is worthless.
--
Theresa K

E-3, E-300, 8mm fisheye, 14-54, 35-100, 50-200 and 50mm lenses, FL-50, FL-36R, HLD-4
http://theresak.smugmug.com/

Yes. Some of the guys wearing the speedy suits didn't even come close to winning. ;-)

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[CharlesB58]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=32544565

Not a masterpiece by any means, but shows how "unacceptable" noise can be handled with the right techniques combined with artistic intent.
--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[Digirame]

Here's one of the rules:

"My latest picture" / gallery / multiple images - Unless it's discussion of a specific technique or setup please do not post "here's my latest picture / gallery" type posts in the camera specific forums, instead please use the Samples & Galleries forum.

When showing our photos, I think it helps when the camera and lens is identified. A lot of us include EXIF data with our photos. I now do that all the time, so that people can see the setup used. Yes, not all people do that. I kind of like to see how people got their photos myself. I'm often asking what camera or lens they used.

So, there's opportunity for us to show what our cameras can do, as long as we describe or show our technique or setup. Granted, may be we could do that better. Isn't that the intent of this forum...to discuss gear and what it produces? I'm sure that a lot of us would like to see more of your photos...what you can do. Some of you are excellent photographers with nice gear...we would sure enjoy seeing what you can do with it.

 

[CharlesB58]

But how will anyone know that if we don't show them what we are capable of?

Exactly. One hope many have is that this forum will help encourage people to buy Olympus dslrs. That's certainly a good reason. However, what happens is certain people try to do the convincing by pointing to lab results. IMO, for every person who is concerned about lab results, there are a couple dozen who have a few simple questions:

How easy is it to use?

Will I like how the photos look?

Is it a good value for my money?

When I sold cameras, those were the only 3 concerns I went over with probably 95% of my customers. The other 5% were those concerned about "professional" aspects such as durability, lens selection etc.

Face it, folks, while I respect those who enjoy focusing on comparing lab results and/or who have a knowledge of the science behind dslrs that far surpasses mine, what will get more people to buy Olympus dslrs is seeing great pictures combined with being assured that they can get results that will make them happy, all the while getting the best value for their hard earned money.

I have developed a great deal of respect for John Isaac. Not because he uses Olympus dslrs, but because he is a great photographer who has devoted most of his life to helping to inform people about other cultures and countries, and so help promote better understanding between people. He declares openly that his favorite/best images have been made with the E-1.

This is not to say that the E-1 is inherently superior to other cameras. It says that in the hands of John Isaac, it produces results worthy of including in a quality "coffee table" book. How many gearboys arguing ad nauseum on this forum about pixel density, DR or high ISO noise can make the same claim?

So, I go to Mr. Isaac's website and study his images. Not to look for noise or compare resolution to a camera with more megapixels. I do it to see what it is about the E-1, in his hands, that produces such striking photos, and hope that perhaps I can produce images displaying even a fraction of his skill with my E520.

I don't care if someone can "prove" to me that the E-1, or my E520, is inferior in noise or resolution to model X from brand Y. That's not what matters in John Isaac's mind as he takes photos. It doesn't matter in mine. What matters is that when I open up an image in my editor, it looks like what I envisioned when I pressed the shutter.

What it really comes down to is what often happens on any sort of forum: turf wars. There are always people who want to dominate an online community and shape it to their own personal expectations. Some are obvious trolls, but others can be very eloquent in their approach (yet no less unyielding in demanding the forum be what they insist it be, even if others in the community disagree.)

Theresa, thanks for pointing out that the Olympus talk forum focuses more on actual photography. I'll visit there more often. Not that I think people on this forum are wrong or inferior, just that I would like to see some folks offer photos

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[CharlesB58]

Here's one of the rules:

"My latest picture" / gallery / multiple images - Unless it's discussion of a specific technique or setup please do not post "here's my latest picture / gallery" type posts in the camera specific forums, instead please use the Samples & Galleries forum.

When showing our photos, I think it helps when the camera and lens is identified. A lot of us include EXIF data with our photos. I now do that all the time, so that people can see the setup used. Yes, not all people do that. I kind of like to see how people got their photos myself. I'm often asking what camera or lens they used.

So, there's opportunity for us to show what our cameras can do, as long as we describe or show our technique or setup. Granted, may be we could do that better. Isn't that the intent of this forum...to discuss gear and what it produces? I'm sure that a lot of us would like to see more of your photos...what you can do. Some of you are excellent photographers with nice gear...we would sure enjoy seeing what you can do with it.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, I wonder if some people don't want to do anything other than argue test results.

I posted an image and a link to more which I took with my E520 and some improvised lighting techniques. Got one response that wasn't even related to what I'd done to achieve the photos.

I posted another set of images showing how I'd used layer blending (the RAW and .jpeg of the same capture) to reduce noise and increase detail. I got 2 responses on that one.

My conclusion is that many people simply don't want to learn how to best use their Olympus cameras. They want someone to reassure them that it's great gear: so great that they can automatically take professional caliber photos by default. With that attitude, such people may likely focus on arguing why their images must be good because of their gear.

There's lots of talk about "Out of Camera"results as though doing something a great many decent photographers have done for generations-manipulate the process to make sure the print reflects the photographers vision for the shot-is somehow beneath them. Frankly, I find that attitude delusional, as those with it fail to see how it makes them a slave to the camera, rather than vice versa. IMO, photography is not about adapting your thinking-and ultimately your photographic vision- to what the camera can do. It's about using the camera to render images which realize your vision in the most effective way.

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[Inigo Montoya]

If we do not demonstrate what the equipment is capable of producing in real user's hands, we might as well let it sit on a shelf. And you and I both know that no one puts anything in the samples and galleries forums.

I'm not trying to split hairs -- I'm merely quoting what the site's originator defined the forum to be. Given the heavy emphasis on the technical specs and performance in his reviews, this seems to be a reasonable assessment of Phil's (original) intent for the forum(s). That they have evolved to be much more than that is another matter -- even if better. You were asking who decided it should be gear talk. I believe Phil did -- not that I agree that it should be that way.

As for demonstrating what the gear is capable of....
I'd replace "real user's hands" iwth " competent__ user's hands".

But even then, too many of those posts don't even do that well --- images are downsized so much that almost all flaws are obscured. (To me) it's silly to post an image that contains only 4% of the original capture and claim it accurately represents any camera's capabilities -- yet that's exactly what one gets when posting an 800x600 version of a 12MP file. Unless of course one's intent in spending > $1,000 on a DSLR and lenses is to make web-sized captures.

The other main point I had though, was that short of "bannable offenses", these forums are what the posters make of them. If they want to talk gear, then that's what they'll get. If they want to talk content/composition, then that's what it will be. And if they want to cry foul at anyone who says 4/3rds is noisier than APS, and (as a system) lacks the DOF of a "full frame" system... well, they get that too.

All we can do is focus on what we want to see and get out of the forum. I do that by observing and deciding who (in my opinion) are the posters whose content most tracks with my interests, and then (generally) responding to those threads.

--



E-Five-Ten/E-One/E-Three-Hundred/E-Ten/C-Twenty-OneHundred-UZ/E-OneHundred-RS
DZ Eleven-TwentyTwo/DZ Fourteen-FiftyFour/DZ Fifty-TwoHundred
EC-Fourteen/FL-Fifty/FL-Forty
Oldma-cdon-aldh-adaf-arm-EI-EI-O

 

[John King]

G'day again Theresa

Great color, terrific DOF. Very sharp.

Thank you, Ma'am . Very kind of you, and much appreciated.

Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish?

My thoughts exactly ...

Don't let the trolls, the gear heads or the pixel peepers keep you down!

I will try not to ... :|

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php
Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction):
http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group