Does $$equipment get you mugged???

[Mike P.74348]

Maybe this is a silly question...

I was just wondering how big a problem getting mugged is for those of you that take this expensive gear out in public. I find myself thinking about it as I contemplate doing some nature, night cityscapes, street shots, beach/boardwalk, etc.

Is this a big problem? Any suggestions as to what to do to minimize the possibility, other than keeping as low a profile as possible (which of course is hard to do with a 70-200/f2.8 hanging off a 1D)?

Should I get a shirt that says "FBI/ATF" on it?

Thanks,
--
Mike P.

 

[Kent]

Maybe this is a silly question...

I was just wondering how big a problem getting mugged is for those
of you that take this expensive gear out in public.

I thought there was a chance of getting mugged when I went to Jamaica last summer. As a result, I brought my Nikon N80 instead of my F5. Also brought cheaper lenses instead of a few AF-S lenses (even though they work on the N80).

I had no problems at all. Shot 24 rolls of mostly Fuji Reala. I was extreme pleased with the photographs.

I will always wonder how much better the photos would have looked if I had brought the F5 and my best lenses. Especially when I handed the camera to my wife to take photos of me jumping off the cliff at Rick's Cafe in Negril. Its a 48 foot drop into the ocean and the N80 wasn't up to the focusing challenge. No, I'm not going back for a reshoot with the F5 - it hurts too much when you hit the water.

I think the decision is also easier if you have personal property insurance with the camera and lenses as scheduled items.
--
Kent
San Francisco

 

[John Mitchell]

Mike,

No, expensive equipment does not necessarily get you mugged. To the average robber on the street, a camera is a camera and if he wants to try and rob you, it doesn't matter whether it's a N60 or a D1X. More often than not, what usually ends up making you a victim of street crime is YOU.

Let me explain...when I first started my graphics business, I needed a real job to pay the bills while the business grew. I was cop in a large city so what I say comes from experience and observation. A person on the streets in a less than desireable area must always be aware of what's going on around them. It's called street smarts and some people have it, some learn it, and some will never get it. A street smart person can tell if something just isn't right or if they are going too far over their heads in a certain situation. They can feel it. The street "dummy" just walks around with their eyes closed and thinks nothing can happen. Basically, in many situations, if something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

The second most important thing is attitude. You have to walk tall, act like you've been there a hundred times before, and look confident. You don't want to look like a tourist from the suburbs out for a day of shooting in the "hood". People are just mammals and the bad guys are predators. It's no different to be in a tough neighborhood as it is to be in the jungle. A lion searching for food eyes the herd of zebras and looks for the weakest and most vulnerable victim. He then stalks and preys upon this animal. The bad guys do the same thing. They are looking for the person that looks the most out of place and also the one that is least able to defend himself. Once selected, they pounce on that person just as the lion does the zebra. You don't have to weigh 240 pounds to appear strong. As I said, it's all about attitude. If you look like you know the place and carry yourself in a self assured manner, they will most likely find someone else.

The final thing in street smarts is common sense. If you see a group of interesting people on the corner hanging out, don't assume that they want their picture taken. That unusual group just might be a bunch of crack dealers that certainly don't want their picture taken and would take great offense to you shooting them....hell, they might shoot back !! Just use your head.

With that said, even the most confident and street wise person would not go into some areas of town wearing a lot of jewelry and a Rolex. That WILL get you pounced on. Dress down and just blend in. If you are venturing into a new area, sometimes a zoom is nice so you don't have to get right into people's faces.

As I said before though, most bad guys don't know the difference in cameras. If they really want it, they'll try and get it. There are certainly some areas in my town that I would not go into and in some areas, I feel better if I have a gun but for 90 percent of street shooting, what I said above will serve you well. Just walk around, act like you know exactly what you are doing, and have fun. And, as a former cop, remember this. Should you ever find yourself in the unlikely situation of getting robbed, give them your stuff. I don't care if it's $5,000 worth of equipment. You can replace that....you can't replace Mike,
Best regards,
John Mitchell

P.S. Forget the FBI shirt. Bad guys don't like law enforcement people and remember.....cops get shot !!

 

[budhines]

John, really good advice! I have been a photojournalist and street photographer for years and using guidelines similar to those you stated have had no problems. However, I would like to reinforce John's comments that there are some places you just shouldn't be, No matter how fit you may look. And if you have street smarts you will know when and where that is.

Bud

Mike,
No, expensive equipment does not necessarily get you mugged. To the
average robber on the street, a camera is a camera and if he wants
to try and rob you, it doesn't matter whether it's a N60 or a D1X.
More often than not, what usually ends up making you a victim of
street crime is YOU.
Let me explain...when I first started my graphics business, I
needed a real job to pay the bills while the business grew. I was
cop in a large city so what I say comes from experience and
observation. A person on the streets in a less than desireable area
must always be aware of what's going on around them. It's called
street smarts and some people have it, some learn it, and some will
never get it. A street smart person can tell if something just
isn't right or if they are going too far over their heads in a
certain situation. They can feel it. The street "dummy" just walks
around with their eyes closed and thinks nothing can happen.
Basically, in many situations, if something doesn't feel right, it
probably isn't.
The second most important thing is attitude. You have to walk tall,
act like you've been there a hundred times before, and look
confident. You don't want to look like a tourist from the suburbs
out for a day of shooting in the "hood". People are just mammals
and the bad guys are predators. It's no different to be in a tough
neighborhood as it is to be in the jungle. A lion searching for
food eyes the herd of zebras and looks for the weakest and most
vulnerable victim. He then stalks and preys upon this animal. The
bad guys do the same thing. They are looking for the person that
looks the most out of place and also the one that is least able to
defend himself. Once selected, they pounce on that person just as
the lion does the zebra. You don't have to weigh 240 pounds to
appear strong. As I said, it's all about attitude. If you look like
you know the place and carry yourself in a self assured manner,
they will most likely find someone else.
The final thing in street smarts is common sense. If you see a
group of interesting people on the corner hanging out, don't assume
that they want their picture taken. That unusual group just might
be a bunch of crack dealers that certainly don't want their picture
taken and would take great offense to you shooting them....hell,
they might shoot back !! Just use your head.
With that said, even the most confident and street wise person
would not go into some areas of town wearing a lot of jewelry and a
Rolex. That WILL get you pounced on. Dress down and just blend in.
If you are venturing into a new area, sometimes a zoom is nice so
you don't have to get right into people's faces.
As I said before though, most bad guys don't know the difference in
cameras. If they really want it, they'll try and get it. There are
certainly some areas in my town that I would not go into and in
some areas, I feel better if I have a gun but for 90 percent of
street shooting, what I said above will serve you well. Just walk
around, act like you know exactly what you are doing, and have fun.
And, as a former cop, remember this. Should you ever find yourself
in the unlikely situation of getting robbed, give them your stuff.
I don't care if it's $5,000 worth of equipment. You can replace
that....you can't replace Mike,
Best regards,
John Mitchell
P.S. Forget the FBI shirt. Bad guys don't like law enforcement
people and remember.....cops get shot !!

 

[William Faulkner]

Both Bud and John have good advice. Sounds like the sort you'd get from those who've been there and done that. I personally know two photographers who have been victims

of muggings. One in broad daylight, with a knife. Definately not fun. One thing I'd like to add is that camera equipment can lead to your being set up for a con. My experience was in New York and the con was two guys running a three card monty game. "Sure, you can join in. Just put those cameras up for the bet." No thanks. I later saw the two guys plus three others I didn't notice splitting the winnings off some poor mark.

Truth is with digital photography being so popular there's going to be a huge demand for "used" equipment. Use all your senses when out in public. The camera you save might be your own.

Regards,
Bill Faulkner

Bud

Mike,
No, expensive equipment does not necessarily get you mugged. To the
average robber on the street, a camera is a camera and if he wants
to try and rob you, it doesn't matter whether it's a N60 or a D1X.
More often than not, what usually ends up making you a victim of
street crime is YOU.
Let me explain...when I first started my graphics business, I
needed a real job to pay the bills while the business grew. I was
cop in a large city so what I say comes from experience and
observation. A person on the streets in a less than desireable area
must always be aware of what's going on around them. It's called
street smarts and some people have it, some learn it, and some will
never get it. A street smart person can tell if something just
isn't right or if they are going too far over their heads in a
certain situation. They can feel it. The street "dummy" just walks
around with their eyes closed and thinks nothing can happen.
Basically, in many situations, if something doesn't feel right, it
probably isn't.
The second most important thing is attitude. You have to walk tall,
act like you've been there a hundred times before, and look
confident. You don't want to look like a tourist from the suburbs
out for a day of shooting in the "hood". People are just mammals
and the bad guys are predators. It's no different to be in a tough
neighborhood as it is to be in the jungle. A lion searching for
food eyes the herd of zebras and looks for the weakest and most
vulnerable victim. He then stalks and preys upon this animal. The
bad guys do the same thing. They are looking for the person that
looks the most out of place and also the one that is least able to
defend himself. Once selected, they pounce on that person just as
the lion does the zebra. You don't have to weigh 240 pounds to
appear strong. As I said, it's all about attitude. If you look like
you know the place and carry yourself in a self assured manner,
they will most likely find someone else.
The final thing in street smarts is common sense. If you see a
group of interesting people on the corner hanging out, don't assume
that they want their picture taken. That unusual group just might
be a bunch of crack dealers that certainly don't want their picture
taken and would take great offense to you shooting them....hell,
they might shoot back !! Just use your head.
With that said, even the most confident and street wise person
would not go into some areas of town wearing a lot of jewelry and a
Rolex. That WILL get you pounced on. Dress down and just blend in.
If you are venturing into a new area, sometimes a zoom is nice so
you don't have to get right into people's faces.
As I said before though, most bad guys don't know the difference in
cameras. If they really want it, they'll try and get it. There are
certainly some areas in my town that I would not go into and in
some areas, I feel better if I have a gun but for 90 percent of
street shooting, what I said above will serve you well. Just walk
around, act like you know exactly what you are doing, and have fun.
And, as a former cop, remember this. Should you ever find yourself
in the unlikely situation of getting robbed, give them your stuff.
I don't care if it's $5,000 worth of equipment. You can replace
that....you can't replace Mike,
Best regards,
John Mitchell
P.S. Forget the FBI shirt. Bad guys don't like law enforcement
people and remember.....cops get shot !!

 

[Ger Bee]

... if one is mugged the thief usually does not know what he is stealing.

Expensive digital gear or expensive gear is often stolen for ransom as they are almost useless as sale items unless they are on “special order”. The sad part about high-end digital theft is that the equipment is dumped – most owners have the stuff registered worldwide so it could easily turn up in service somewhere.

The average criminal is a brainless opportunist and he walks through the crowd looking for easy targets as opposed to the high dollar goods, which draw more heat and are difficult to offload – but he steals instinctively – anything and everthing.

 

[Jerome47940]

Mike,

I agree with all that has been said before,however now in London I tend not to take my expensive gear out on the streets. If I have to, I try to have a freelance assistant.

However I do take a camera with me on the streets always. At present I use a metal bodied compact from the '60s, a lightmeter and a small flash. The lens is 45mm so I have to get in close. I put it all in a non descript bag.

The other day I saw a well dressed beggar sit down in the middle of the road near a traffic light controlled crossing. Very very dangerous and the cars and the buses hooted at him but a few stopped to give him money. I felt bad taking pictures but I thought that should be documented. In a situation lie this don't be diffident. Look as though you should be there.

As for the press boys a lot of them carry backpacks or roller carts now - just because a traditional camera bag screams "steal me". I don't because these don't suit me. so I put the camera bag into a roller cart to transport on the Tube.. I always wear trainers. I don't know why, I feel safer.

I agree that the white bodied Canon lenses scream steal me. I hear rumours that it is possible t have them in dark colours to special order. May be wrong.
Best wishes
JeromeY

 

[Hubert Williams]

Now that was a mouth-full. That speach was definitely more valuble than anyones equipment you might wanna consider charging for that kind of advise next time John.

Mike,
No, expensive equipment does not necessarily get you mugged. To the
average robber on the street, a camera is a camera and if he wants
to try and rob you, it doesn't matter whether it's a N60 or a D1X.
More often than not, what usually ends up making you a victim of
street crime is YOU.
Let me explain...when I first started my graphics business, I
needed a real job to pay the bills while the business grew. I was
cop in a large city so what I say comes from experience and
observation. A person on the streets in a less than desireable area
must always be aware of what's going on around them. It's called
street smarts and some people have it, some learn it, and some will
never get it. A street smart person can tell if something just
isn't right or if they are going too far over their heads in a
certain situation. They can feel it. The street "dummy" just walks
around with their eyes closed and thinks nothing can happen.
Basically, in many situations, if something doesn't feel right, it
probably isn't.
The second most important thing is attitude. You have to walk tall,
act like you've been there a hundred times before, and look
confident. You don't want to look like a tourist from the suburbs
out for a day of shooting in the "hood". People are just mammals
and the bad guys are predators. It's no different to be in a tough
neighborhood as it is to be in the jungle. A lion searching for
food eyes the herd of zebras and looks for the weakest and most
vulnerable victim. He then stalks and preys upon this animal. The
bad guys do the same thing. They are looking for the person that
looks the most out of place and also the one that is least able to
defend himself. Once selected, they pounce on that person just as
the lion does the zebra. You don't have to weigh 240 pounds to
appear strong. As I said, it's all about attitude. If you look like
you know the place and carry yourself in a self assured manner,
they will most likely find someone else.
The final thing in street smarts is common sense. If you see a
group of interesting people on the corner hanging out, don't assume
that they want their picture taken. That unusual group just might
be a bunch of crack dealers that certainly don't want their picture
taken and would take great offense to you shooting them....hell,
they might shoot back !! Just use your head.
With that said, even the most confident and street wise person
would not go into some areas of town wearing a lot of jewelry and a
Rolex. That WILL get you pounced on. Dress down and just blend in.
If you are venturing into a new area, sometimes a zoom is nice so
you don't have to get right into people's faces.
As I said before though, most bad guys don't know the difference in
cameras. If they really want it, they'll try and get it. There are
certainly some areas in my town that I would not go into and in
some areas, I feel better if I have a gun but for 90 percent of
street shooting, what I said above will serve you well. Just walk
around, act like you know exactly what you are doing, and have fun.
And, as a former cop, remember this. Should you ever find yourself
in the unlikely situation of getting robbed, give them your stuff.
I don't care if it's $5,000 worth of equipment. You can replace
that....you can't replace Mike,
Best regards,
John Mitchell
P.S. Forget the FBI shirt. Bad guys don't like law enforcement
people and remember.....cops get shot !!

 

[Mel]

What is written here is "exactly" the scenario you will find world wide when it comes to basic theft.

If I didn't know better Ger, I would think you were in my old line of work?

Well said,

Mel

... if one is mugged the thief usually does not know what he is
stealing.

Expensive digital gear or expensive gear is often stolen for ransom
as they are almost useless as sale items unless they are on
“special order”. The sad part about high-end digital theft is that
the equipment is dumped – most owners have the stuff registered
worldwide so it could easily turn up in service somewhere.

The average criminal is a brainless opportunist and he walks
through the crowd looking for easy targets as opposed to the high
dollar goods, which draw more heat and are difficult to offload –
but he steals instinctively – anything and everthing.

--
Mel

 

[Zoned]

Reminds me of a time once long ago, back in art school, some dirtbag decided he wanted my Oly OM-1 w/motor drive; I hit him with it, he went down and I walked away - only damage to the camera was a small ding on the case... (Loved those old solid bodies)

(I used to have a bit of an attitude problem ;-)

Seriously, though, these guys have got it, pay attention, and just plain avoid some areas, and if it comes down to the equipment or serious bodily injury, give it up, it can be replaced, you can't...

Maybe this is a silly question...

I was just wondering how big a problem getting mugged is for those
of you that take this expensive gear out in public. I find myself
thinking about it as I contemplate doing some nature, night
cityscapes, street shots, beach/boardwalk, etc.

Is this a big problem? Any suggestions as to what to do to
minimize the possibility, other than keeping as low a profile as
possible (which of course is hard to do with a 70-200/f2.8 hanging
off a 1D)?

Should I get a shirt that says "FBI/ATF" on it?

Thanks,
--
Mike P.

 

[Ethan Hansen]

Mike,

This is a valid concern. Walk around with $20K of baubles hanging from your neck and shoulder, and you'll certainly look more enticing to a mugger than a bum pushing a shopping cart loaded with junk. Whether you get mugged comes down to a combination of situational awareness, common sense, and luck.

I was in South Africa in the mid 90's for the constitutional fun and games. Safety Pup approved neighborhoods in Jo'Burg are not to be found. There were some areas where I simply would not go, particularly after dark. Otherwise, it came down to being alert, and identifying potential trouble before it found you.

In most cases, an exchange of glances -- I know what you're thinking, chump, are you sure about that? -- was all that was needed to head off a confrontation. Be very clear in your mind what your response to trouble will be. If you have the idea that handing over your kit will be your first option, don't be surprised to be asked for it. Your body language will give you away. I had some scumbag pose the "is that bag worth your life?" question to me. My response: No, but it's worth yours. He left, sans bag.

To further minimize the chance of something nasty occurring, get in the habit of a) Being aware of everything happening around you, and b) Shooting with both eyes open. You'll see potential trouble before it happens, and probably get better pictures as a result. In other words, be a bit paranoid.

Finally, don't loiter around taking a picture when your senses are telling you to get the hell out of there. I've seen images the photographer died to get. None of them were worth the price.

 

[Rob Brigham]

There is a reason why they are white - it stops the heat messing up the quality of the image through that big glass.

I agree that the white bodied Canon lenses scream steal me. I hear
rumours that it is possible t have them in dark colours to special
order. May be wrong.

 

[Bill Brosen]

There is always that possibility of getting mugged, the great state of Mississippi allows me to carry a firearm for self protection and so therefore I feel as safe as I can possibly be in this day and age, if its even possible any more with the way things are now a days...If your state does not allow you to protect yourself then thats a shame..possibly go with a partner or two? Hire body guards? It may be a business expense that could be written off, or added into the cost of a shoot, like any other exoenses ie gas , rentals, etc etc....

http://www.pbase.com/wbrosen/photoart

 

[warren prasek]

fortunately in most parts of australia you dont (cough) need to carry a gun to feel safe! i suspect this has something to do with guns being illegal, and a lack of a pro-gun culture. phew.

couldn't imagine living somewhere every second person was packing heat... bodyguards, weapons... no wonder people feel nervous!

There is always that possibility of getting mugged, the great state
of Mississippi allows me to carry a firearm for self protection
and so therefore I feel as safe as I can possibly be in this day
and age, if its even possible any more with the way things are now
a days...If your state does not allow you to protect yourself then
thats a shame..possibly go with a partner or two? Hire body guards?
It may be a business expense that could be written off, or added
into the cost of a shoot, like any other exoenses ie gas , rentals,
etc etc....

.

 

[Jerome47940]

Tthe subject under discussion is mugging, not the reason why Canon wraps some lenses in a cream coating. We know why Canon does it. Why assume other pros don't know?

It's posts like yours which make these forums lame and damn silly. If you haven't something pertinent to say, don't say it.
Sheesh
jerome Y.

I agree that the white bodied Canon lenses scream steal me. I hear
rumours that it is possible t have them in dark colours to special
order. May be wrong.

 

[Bill Brosen]

Why worry about law abideing people carrying a gun? Law abideing people do not commit crimes, criminals do...and they will have A GUN REGARDLESS OF THE LAW and we know better than to believe that people do not get murdered, raped, car jacked and mugged in Australia...Here in the states where a law abideing citizen is allowed to carry a gun, crime goes down and where they are not allowed to crime goes up.....we have more crime because because we have a bigger population and yes a different culture..not because guns are readily available...twice my gun saved my life and property...once i was out numbered by some punks who wanted my wallet , camera and too kick my A** just for good measure, they never displayed a weapon, just a gang that i never could have out run or fight off..why shouldnt a person be allowed to save their own life? its the only humane thing for a government to do, let its citizens defend them selves, here in the states, its one of our freedoms which most of us hold dear...its also a built in guarantee our government cannot control us. What honest govenment fears armed law abideing citizens?

http://www.pbase.com/wbrosen/photoart

 

[warren prasek]

okay, this is going seriously OT but it's an interesting debate and i hope it doesn't descend into flaming... so here goes:

i'm worried about anyone who owns a gun, personally. i just dont see them as having a legitimate place in today's society. don't you see that the more people own guns, the more criminals will "need" bigger/better/deadlier guns to overpower your own armoury?

there have been numerous cases of kids grabbing a gun (yes, not secured properly) and killing themselves or someone else. fact is, you dont know who is GOING to commit a criminal act when you sell them the gun.. if there are millions of them around, and easily available, they will fall into the hands of those who shouldn't have them, people who would not otherwise go out of their way to aquire them...

btw the american murder/firearm crime rate is way, way, higher than the difference in population with australia

Why worry about law abideing people carrying a gun? Law abideing
people do not commit crimes, criminals do...and they will have A
GUN REGARDLESS OF THE LAW and we know better than to believe that
people do not get murdered, raped, car jacked and mugged in
Australia...Here in the states where a law abideing citizen is
allowed to carry a gun, crime goes down and where they are not
allowed to crime goes up.....we have more crime because because we
have a bigger population and yes a different culture..not because
guns are readily available...twice my gun saved my life and
property...once i was out numbered by some punks who wanted my
wallet , camera and too kick my A** just for good measure, they
never displayed a weapon, just a gang that i never could have out
run or fight off..why shouldnt a person be allowed to save their
own life? its the only humane thing for a government to do, let its
citizens defend them selves, here in the states, its one of our
freedoms which most of us hold dear...its also a built in guarantee
our government cannot control us. What honest govenment fears
armed law abideing citizens?

http://www.pbase.com/wbrosen/photoart

--
------------------------------------
i was gonna type something witty here but then i changed my mind.

 

[Idclick1]

Sorry to say this but when the guns were pulled in australia violent crime went up. When I am on a photo shoot I must offer some security to my models. Yes I am licensed to carry a counseled firearm and I do so.

If you have ever been a victim of violent crime as I have been you would say "never again".

Bob Neil

i'm worried about anyone who owns a gun, personally. i just dont
see them as having a legitimate place in today's society. don't you
see that the more people own guns, the more criminals will "need"
bigger/better/deadlier guns to overpower your own armoury?

there have been numerous cases of kids grabbing a gun (yes, not
secured properly) and killing themselves or someone else. fact is,
you dont know who is GOING to commit a criminal act when you sell
them the gun.. if there are millions of them around, and easily
available, they will fall into the hands of those who shouldn't
have them, people who would not otherwise go out of their way to
aquire them...

btw the american murder/firearm crime rate is way, way, higher than
the difference in population with australia

Why worry about law abideing people carrying a gun? Law abideing
people do not commit crimes, criminals do...and they will have A
GUN REGARDLESS OF THE LAW and we know better than to believe that
people do not get murdered, raped, car jacked and mugged in
Australia...Here in the states where a law abideing citizen is
allowed to carry a gun, crime goes down and where they are not
allowed to crime goes up.....we have more crime because because we
have a bigger population and yes a different culture..not because
guns are readily available...twice my gun saved my life and
property...once i was out numbered by some punks who wanted my
wallet , camera and too kick my A** just for good measure, they
never displayed a weapon, just a gang that i never could have out
run or fight off..why shouldnt a person be allowed to save their
own life? its the only humane thing for a government to do, let its
citizens defend them selves, here in the states, its one of our
freedoms which most of us hold dear...its also a built in guarantee
our government cannot control us. What honest govenment fears
armed law abideing citizens?

http://www.pbase.com/wbrosen/photoart

--
------------------------------------
i was gonna type something witty here but then i changed my mind.

 

[Rinus Borgsteede]

It is a sad world that you have the thought of being mugged. Caution is good but don't read the rest of my message if you want to stay in that bad place of thinking.

What you focus on is what you get. Expecting to be mugged is going to make it happen. It is simple theory. Cause and effect. It is this physical law that states that you are responsible for what happens to you. You determine your own future so expecting things in your life is a good thing. The problem arrises when you do not realize that you are the one sending out requests all the time. You always get what you want and you might just want to think about what it is you are asking for.

For all you bible readers out there and other students of life, Jezus said it in simple words "AS a man thinketh, so IS he". What do YOU think it means.
Rinus

 

[Rinus Borgsteede]

Guns do not have to be illegal but should be kept away from anyone but law enforcement. The lawmen have to protect us and need some kind of weapons. Making guns legal means having control to some degree over who does and who does not have a gun. The proof that citicens should not have guns is on your paper's front page nearly every day. I do not trust people with guns. They have them to stay in control! People only need to be in control when they feel they have none. Thos are really bad candidates to own guns. It is a sad society when you no longer believe in the good of your fellow countrymen. Crime rate is on an all time high and it is getting worse as criminals now need bigger weapons to stay ahead of gun owners. They will comply!
Rinus