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(OT) Survey...What new Computer to get??

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Based on the fact that I want to Scan, Print, burn CD's, Surf and Listen to MP3's while working in PS6, I have decided to build a Dual processor rig. My research indicates this as a good Price performace tradeoff, I haven't got it yet:

Asus A7M266-D MoBo
Dual XP1600+ Athlons
512Mb DDR (Current prices mean I'll have to wait for more).
Dual 60Gb IBM GXP ATA100 drives in software RAID 0 under WIN2000Pro

I will reuse these parts from my current computor:
17 Gb Drive - will be my Back Up
Adaptec 2904 SCSI for the Minolta Dual Scan
Realtek NIC
ATI Rage 2000 Expert
No Name Firewire card (ALi Chipset).
HP 9150 CD-RW.
Monitor
Epson 870 on USB
HP LJ4 on Parallel port
Mouse/keyboard.
On-board sound will be used.

If you have never built a computor from components, the mechanics of it are incredibly easy. You just have to spend some time on the web researching your component choices. The best why to do that is to lurk on Motherboard bulletin boards, as the MoBo is the key to stablity.
--Mark
 
In the past I would agree. But the last couple rounds of Via drivers have been very stable and very fast. I made the mistake of buying a highly touted Via based board, an Abit KT7A-Raid, 6 months ago and it never ran Win2k and only ran Win98 very shaky with lockups every half hour or so. Half the problems turned out to be as much related to the crappy ATI drivers as Vias. I wanted to take a hammer to it. I replaced the ATI card with a nVidia Geforce and that made a huge improvement. Finally, a couple months ago, Via released very stable drivers and now it absolutely screams with 0 issues. It runs everything I throw at it and made using my older 450Mhz Celeron system unbearable (just too slow in comparison.)

Last week I built another Via based board (a Shuttle AK31a) with a faster Via chipset and DDR memory and it is likewise perfectly stable and faster still. A friend of mine put together a AMD based system with a $52 dollar ECS K75A motherboard based on the SiS 735 chipset and his is likewise stable and fast. Then there is AMDs own chipset that is also very stable, but more expensive.

With the stability of the current chipsets AMD has really come into its own.

Having said that, I also built a P4 1.6Ghz Intel system for video editing. I went with Intel for this board because the very expensive Pinnacle video editing card specifies it. It runs neck and neck with the AMD system but cost another $100.

Danny
Mike Miles said:
Building your own is the way to go. Many local dealers will built
it for you for $50-$75.

I'd agree with the following, except I'd stay away from AMD. It's
not so much the AMD cpus, but the chipset that runs them on the
motherboard---mostly made by VIA. A poor buggy chipset.
Click to expand...
 
This system is also described on http://www.techbargains.com , one of my favorite places to visit for deals. Check out their forums section.

While this Dell is a little weak in ram and hard drive, it does use DDR and the newer 512kb cached P4 and is a great value. I'd get it as cheap as possible and then buy your own additional ram elsewhere (Dell charges too much.)

Danny
Pasha said:
you can use it as base, and add things like cdrw from somewhere
else, and still have a great and cheap system...
Jamil Abbasy said:
I am interested in getting a new computer desktop since I only have
a laptop right now. I currently have a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop.
I like the features and price point of the new Gateways. Since we
all do the same thing, I was wondering what most people are using?
Dell? Gateway? or Mac? and maybe some info on why you chose that
system. I hope you find this question interesting as I do.

Thanks,
Jamil
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
While I'll agree with Mark, that the process of putting it together and loading software is pretty straight forward, I've got to add that there are many pitfalls that can leave you frustrated and computerless.

For one thing, if you get a bad component it can be very difficult to figure out what it is without backups to swap in and out. For example, the system I built last week was horribly unstable initially. The video card would only operate in VGA mode and it thought every CD I put into the drive was a music CD. Turned out to be bad memory. The only way I found out was by swapping the memory out. Luckily I had ordered more memory for another build. Otherwise I would have had to buy more memory to test it and been stuck with keeping it around or trading it back it for a restocking fee.

Then there is the inevitable incompatibilities that can happen...mostly with hardware, but occasionally with software. On another system I built the ATI graphics card caused all sorts of headaches. Replacing it with an nVidia card fixed the problems. One way to get around this is to build a system based on someone elses success...part for part...but this can put a serious damper in part bargain hunting. When I successfully built a hopped up Celeron system last year, 4 of my friends and my brother all built systems, identical to mine. This opportunity isn't always available.

If you are a bit adventurous...enjoy exercising your brain...the process can be a lot of fun...very rewarding. But, if you are the type that gets frustrated easily, I recommend you buy a pre-built system.

Danny
Mark Wrathall said:
Based on the fact that I want to Scan, Print, burn CD's, Surf and
Listen to MP3's while working in PS6, I have decided to build a
Dual processor rig. My research indicates this as a good Price
performace tradeoff, I haven't got it yet:

Asus A7M266-D MoBo
Dual XP1600+ Athlons
512Mb DDR (Current prices mean I'll have to wait for more).
Dual 60Gb IBM GXP ATA100 drives in software RAID 0 under WIN2000Pro

I will reuse these parts from my current computor:
17 Gb Drive - will be my Back Up
Adaptec 2904 SCSI for the Minolta Dual Scan
Realtek NIC
ATI Rage 2000 Expert
No Name Firewire card (ALi Chipset).
HP 9150 CD-RW.
Monitor
Epson 870 on USB
HP LJ4 on Parallel port
Mouse/keyboard.
On-board sound will be used.

If you have never built a computor from components, the mechanics
of it are incredibly easy. You just have to spend some time on the
web researching your component choices. The best why to do that is
to lurk on Motherboard bulletin boards, as the MoBo is the key to
stablity.

--
Mark
Click to expand...
 
The case fans are actually very quiet and only there for insurance. Sometimes homebuilders can be quite fanatic about these things, buying mega-sized heatsinks and putting fans everywhere. It goes with the overclocking, hotrodding territory. No the big spoiler on my car doesn't make me go any faster but it looks cool and makes me feel better.

P.S. Perhaps you shouldn't reference Apples cooling choices. We don't have to look back very far in Apple history to find nightmare stories about "cubes" overheating with poor customers juryrigging fans to the bottom and tops of the case to keep them cool.
C.Frank Powell said:
Oh well, My Macs are quiet, and plenty fast in our all Digital studio.

Frank
Mike Miles said:
I'd agree with the following, except I'd stay away from AMD. It's
not so much the AMD cpus, but the chipset that runs them on the
motherboard---mostly made by VIA. A poor buggy chipset.

Instead I'd go for the new ASUS p4b266 motherboard with the Intel
845D chipset. A little more money, but with PC2100 or even PC2700
RAM just as fast or faster in some rendering applications
and.......a hell of a lot more stable.

Depending on the Operating system (Windows 98,98SE, 2K, xp)---512
RAM is plenty. In fact more will not help unless you use (I think)
Windows 2000, maybe not. I'd buy 512 Meg of PC 2700 (Micronics or
Crucial)

I'd have two hard drives-------great option. Forget SCSI, the 7200
RPM ATA 100 drives will be fine for the money. Go for IBM the
fastest drives in the world.

For the video card, the GE Force cards mentioned are very good
cards, but make sure you get one from a company that will support
them with the necessary drivers. A real issue with the little
distributors and companies.

Monitor: Viewsonic 17" or better
C.Frank Powell said:
C.Frank Powell said:
I'm in the computer business and we build and test all manner of
computers. My son is a graphics art major and their department is
all macs. The best overal processor for all types of use right now
is the Athlon 1900 or 2000 xp. These are the fastest in real life.
If your doing a lot photoshop work then consider a small 2nd
scratch drive and reset your "temp" environment variable and move
your windows swap file to that drive. Really speeds things up.

Anyway - we raced this against the macs and it blew them away in
real apples to apples photoshop tests. But you'll never convince a
mac user of this even with hard numbers in front of their face. (if
you don't believe me just watch the flames that head my way now)

Also - in regards to the Athlon - you can now get dual athlon
motherboards from Tyan for under 200 dollars. What many people
don't realize you can use the XP processors and not the impossible
to find MP processors these motherboards say they require. These
machines really rock. They use DDR memory as well.

On the hard drives - spend the little extra and get the 7200 rpm
drives. It is totally annoying how the dell's and gateways of the
world will plunk in a 5400 rpm drive losing nearly 50 percent in
speed and save 30 bucks in the cost of building their pc.

SCSI drives will not give you a benefit to justify their cost for
this type of work.

So - dream machine:

1. dual processor Athlon XP 2000+ processors with tyan motherboard
2. promise controller with dual 100 meg 7200 rpm drives for fault
tolerance
3. extra scratch 7200 rpm 30 meg drive for windows swap file and
temp directory
4. Geforce 3 Ti 500 or Geforce 4 (but not mx series)
5. good burner for backing up all your raw files
6. windows xp pro - required for multiple monitors and dual
processor support - xp home won't do it
8. Case with extra fan in front and back (front blows in - back
blows out)
9. gig of pc2100 ddr ram - use 512 meg chips so you can still go up
if you want

if you want to cut cost - drop the promise controller and one 100mb
drive and go to single processor and use non-dual motherboard.
Keep the extra 30 meg drive (their only 130 dollars anyway)

--
John Mason - Lafayette, IN
Click to expand...
--
Peter Sills
Digital Focus.net
http://www.digitalfocus.net
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I didn't know you could use XPs in dual processor boards. Thanks for the info. Is this true with all boards or only certain ones?

Danny
John Mason said:
now with that come on - I can change the subject

I'm in the computer business and we build and test all manner of
computers. My son is a graphics art major and their department is
all macs. The best overal processor for all types of use right now
is the Athlon 1900 or 2000 xp. These are the fastest in real life.
If your doing a lot photoshop work then consider a small 2nd
scratch drive and reset your "temp" environment variable and move
your windows swap file to that drive. Really speeds things up.

Anyway - we raced this against the macs and it blew them away in
real apples to apples photoshop tests. But you'll never convince a
mac user of this even with hard numbers in front of their face. (if
you don't believe me just watch the flames that head my way now)

Also - in regards to the Athlon - you can now get dual athlon
motherboards from Tyan for under 200 dollars. What many people
don't realize you can use the XP processors and not the impossible
to find MP processors these motherboards say they require. These
machines really rock. They use DDR memory as well.

On the hard drives - spend the little extra and get the 7200 rpm
drives. It is totally annoying how the dell's and gateways of the
world will plunk in a 5400 rpm drive losing nearly 50 percent in
speed and save 30 bucks in the cost of building their pc.

SCSI drives will not give you a benefit to justify their cost for
this type of work.

So - dream machine:

1. dual processor Athlon XP 2000+ processors with tyan motherboard
2. promise controller with dual 100 meg 7200 rpm drives for fault
tolerance
3. extra scratch 7200 rpm 30 meg drive for windows swap file and
temp directory
4. Geforce 3 Ti 500 or Geforce 4 (but not mx series)
5. good burner for backing up all your raw files
6. windows xp pro - required for multiple monitors and dual
processor support - xp home won't do it
8. Case with extra fan in front and back (front blows in - back
blows out)
9. gig of pc2100 ddr ram - use 512 meg chips so you can still go up
if you want

if you want to cut cost - drop the promise controller and one 100mb
drive and go to single processor and use non-dual motherboard.
Keep the extra 30 meg drive (their only 130 dollars anyway)

--
John Mason - Lafayette, IN
Click to expand...
 
Macs are not too much fun - you can't screw something up while upgrading. Being serious, I would go with Dell. I usually get top one available at the time of purchase and don't think about it for the next two years, besides of adding more RAM.
 
I do like the way the new Macs look and feel. Unfortunately, I have a pretty large investment in software and most of it is single platform. Too bad they don't sell more software in dual platform form...for Mac or Windows. Then I wouldn't have to go out and buy a new Office Suite and Photoshop and etc, etc.....

By the way, just because people, upgrade their PCs every year, doesn't mean they have to. You will find many, "roll-your-own" PC users out there with an addiction for speed.

Personally, I have curbed my speed appetite quite a bit. It used to be, I'd upgrade everytime the next faster components came out...going from a 133Mhz to a 166Mhz for example. Now I wait for speeds to double before looking to make a move. The last jump I made was from a 450Mhz Celeron to a 850Mhz T-bird. The difference in speed is so apparent that I find it painful to go back to the old machine. On the other hand when I visit my neighbor, he doesn't seem to be bothered by how slow his old Mac is. He just leans back and takes another sip of coffee as pages slowly load in his browser. My wife is similarly undaunted by slower speeds and is quite happy to work on my old 300Mhz Dell laptop...especially liking how she can channel surf and websurf at the same time from the comfort of our bed.

Danny
Robert Mealing said:
I'm the New Media Manager at a "large publishing company", and most
people in my department have both PCs and Macs on their desktops,
(needed for cross-platform testing). Many people who came into the
department as Windows users switched and have bought Macs for home
use. The graphics capibilities, ease of use, ease of maintenence
and especially the new built in media apps (iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD
and iTunes) make the Mac a great digital hub (as Jobs would say).

The high-end iMac is a great computer.. or if you can afford it,
the dual gig PowerMac is awesome.

good luck with whatever choice you make.

robert
Pips said:
Why?

i have had Mac's for 16 years. in all these years I have bought a
total of 4 machines. I use Microsoft and Adobe software and
'fractal painter".

I HAVE NEVER had a problem in loading software or configuring my
MACS I have never found that when I get a new version of software
that I need a new computer, I buy a new machine every 4 or 5 years
WHEN I WANT TO.

MacosX is UNIX, it is a workstation, the Imac is also beautiful it
will grace any studio and if you are a right brainer with artistic
talent then the IMac will inspire!
Jamil Abbasy said:
I am interested in getting a new computer desktop since I only have
a laptop right now. I currently have a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop.
I like the features and price point of the new Gateways. Since we
all do the same thing, I was wondering what most people are using?
Dell? Gateway? or Mac? and maybe some info on why you chose that
system. I hope you find this question interesting as I do.

Thanks,
Jamil
Click to expand...
--
Pips
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Jamil,

I have been in DP for 30 odd years. In my time I have purchased or have caused the purchase of 1000's of laptops, desktops and servers. I purchased them all. All brands.

Gateway: Could be better than they used to be, but they often have odd op sys hooks that make for difficulties. I have never purchased a Gateway that I did not send back.

IBM: Very good, but you pay too much for yesterdays technology. Usually a very good unit but usually not cutting edge and often a bit slow for what it has inside.

Compaq: Impossible to work inside the cases. Good price points and well built usually. Very good servers. Usually the best.

HP: Cheap build but good price performance. Usually use the best of breed components.

Dell: Very good machines. Easy to work inside, good price performance. Excellent warranty work. Usually are cutting edge for speed and technology utilized.

My advice get a Dell, buy the 3 year warranty. It is worth it. If not Dell look at IBM and Compaq. HP and Gateway bring up the rear.

Don't even consider making one from scratch yourself. If you are a photographer you won't be after you get done. You won't have time for photography.
Jamil Abbasy said:
I am interested in getting a new computer desktop since I only have
a laptop right now. I currently have a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop.
I like the features and price point of the new Gateways. Since we
all do the same thing, I was wondering what most people are using?
Dell? Gateway? or Mac? and maybe some info on why you chose that
system. I hope you find this question interesting as I do.

Thanks,
Jamil
Click to expand...
--GSmithCreate an image today that will make someone's day today.
 
It's good to hear that AMD based motherboards have finally reached some stability. I have built many AMD systems, but gave up about a year ago because there were always compatibility issues. Ending up buying a Dell with a P4 at 1.7ghz, which has been quite stable but not any faster than my AMD systems (1100 mhz and 1.4 ghz).

Last year I had 3 different IBM hard drives fail....all under warranty and replaced by IBM (they were 40gb 7200); One maxtor drive failed and was also replaced under warranty. Still think that IBM drives (from SE Asia) are the best, and those haven't failed on me yet.

I've found that building your own system gives you lots of choices, as well as seemingly endless opportunities for unsolvable compatiblity issues.

Now I'm going to have to start looking at the dual processing AMD mobos.....still have some hair left.;-)

Bob
 
I second this opinion. As someone who is on his fourth Dell computer I have noticed a marked deterioration in the build quality of their products and customer support.

My Inspiron 7500 is on its fourth (and faulty) screen and third set of hinges.

Does anyone use IBM laptops for Photoshop editing , or have a better mobile solution?
 
I agree (being the owner of a 7500 myself) that the hinge design of the 7500 was less than spectacular. I have a one set of hinges replaced also in the two years I have owned it.

The issue is too bad because the 7500 is highly veratile and useful laptop. One of the best. Dell seems to have fixed this issue in the 8000 series. My wife has a 4000 series laptop and I just love that thing. Very light but still powerful. Not as versitile though.

Don't let one issue (however aggravating) turn to you an inferior company.
M. Rains said:
I second this opinion. As someone who is on his fourth Dell
computer I have noticed a marked deterioration in the build quality
of their products and customer support.

My Inspiron 7500 is on its fourth (and faulty) screen and third set
of hinges.

Does anyone use IBM laptops for Photoshop editing , or have a
better mobile solution?
Click to expand...
--GSmithCreate an image today that will make someone's day today.
 
I built my own, and going with Dual CPUs is the way to go.

Sure it's a little more expensive, but well worth it since my post processings of digital images and video are eating up lots of resources.

I have had my dual P3 1GHz for almost a year and a half now and I still feel that it should be able to keep up with what I'm doing for another 6-months to a year. Can't say that if I only have 1 CPU.

Building Dual CPU systems with AMD processors is looking very attractive right now, since the Dual P4 mobo is not available yet.
--TN http://www.photovideodisc.com
 
George Smith said:
My advice get a Dell, buy the 3 year warranty. It is worth it. If
not Dell look at IBM and Compaq. HP and Gateway bring up the rear.

Don't even consider making one from scratch yourself. If you are a
photographer you won't be after you get done. You won't have time
for photography.
Click to expand...
George,

I have only been building computers since 1986 (although before that I would occasionally burn my own chips for my home computers). And I have to agree with your advice. As individuals building computers there is no easy way to assess parts compatibility on a large scale like the Dells, IBMs and Gateways.
Bob
 
Bob, please help me out. How can I tell which IBM drives are the SE Asia ones versus the other IBM drives, like the ones that failed you? Do you think that the ones that failed show a problem with their 40GB size, or due to the fact they were not the SE Asia ones? Thanks, Chris
Bob R said:
Last year I had 3 different IBM hard drives fail....all under
warranty and replaced by IBM (they were 40gb 7200); One maxtor
drive failed and was also replaced under warranty. Still think
that IBM drives (from SE Asia) are the best, and those haven't
failed on me yet.

I've found that building your own system gives you lots of choices,
as well as seemingly endless opportunities for unsolvable
compatiblity issues.

Now I'm going to have to start looking at the dual processing AMD
mobos.....still have some hair left.;-)

Bob
Click to expand...
--Chris
 
I build my own computers...it cost about the same as buying a retail one, plus you know exactly what you have (hardware/software), and you learn a lot about computer components, etc. The downside (if some call it this) is that you are your own tech support ; )

--- DB
Jamil Abbasy said:
I am interested in getting a new computer desktop since I only have
a laptop right now. I currently have a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop.
I like the features and price point of the new Gateways. Since we
all do the same thing, I was wondering what most people are using?
Dell? Gateway? or Mac? and maybe some info on why you chose that
system. I hope you find this question interesting as I do.

Thanks,
Jamil
Click to expand...
--'Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May they prosper who love you.' Psalm 122:6
 
I used to say only buy dell...but the laptop I am running on now was computer 5 that I bought this past summer. The first 4 did not work properly. This is why I consider Mac...stability and high quality reliability. I had a gateway once and had to send it back too.

-Jamil
M. Rains said:
I second this opinion. As someone who is on his fourth Dell
computer I have noticed a marked deterioration in the build quality
of their products and customer support.

My Inspiron 7500 is on its fourth (and faulty) screen and third set
of hinges.

Does anyone use IBM laptops for Photoshop editing , or have a
better mobile solution?
Click to expand...
 
Those are the exact reasons why I might switch too...but then I would have to buy a ton of software...

-Jamil
Mike Flaherty said:
Mike
Jamil Abbasy said:
I am interested in getting a new computer desktop since I only have
a laptop right now. I currently have a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop.
I like the features and price point of the new Gateways. Since we
all do the same thing, I was wondering what most people are using?
Dell? Gateway? or Mac? and maybe some info on why you chose that
system. I hope you find this question interesting as I do.

Thanks,
Jamil
Click to expand...
--
Mike Flaherty
http://imageevent.com/mflaherty/mikesgallery
Click to expand...
 
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