Hands-on: SD700IS vs F30

[RetroBlader]

[Cross-posted in the Fuji Talk forum]

While there have been numerous threads dedicated to the comparison between the Canon SD700IS and the Fujifilm F30, very few offered true side-by-side comparisons. Also, a lot of posts were written by people who owned only one of the two cameras, or people who only played with them in camera stores.

Like many others, I struggled between the two cameras. I finally bought one (I won't say which one), but was unhappy enough after a few days of use that I decided to return it and get the other one instead.

I bought the 2nd one, and I still have a few days before I have to return the 1st one, so for a few days, I have both on hand for side-by-side comparisons.

This thread will begin a series of posts from me, in which I'll cover:

• size/portability/handholdability
• ergonomics/ease of use/things I can't stand
• image quality under different conditions
• other things that may be important in deciding between these two cameras

Yes, I will post images. Yes, I will include 100% crops. Yes, I will try to have some images available for full-size download (need to keep an eye on bandwidth).

Hopefully this series of posts will help those like me trying to decide between the two.

--
http://retroblader.smugmug.com/

If you like my photos, praise the camera. If you don't, blame me (but please tell me how I can improve my photos.)

 

[Michael Crowder]

Looking forward to it!!!!!

 

[RetroBlader]

While trying to decide between the SD700IS and the Fujifilm F30, I read all the reviews I could find. I downloaded the manuals for both cameras. I also spent weeks reading both the Canon Talk and the Fuji Talk forums. In combination with forum search results, I must have read thousands of posts. So I thought I knew the relative merits of these two cameras pretty well.

Well, one of my first surprises when I finally have both of them in my hands was that I didn't have as good a grasp on their sizes, weights, and portability/handholdability as I thought I did.

First of all, not trying to get into a metric vs imperial unit debate, the fact that different websites use different units to express camera dimensions and weight did not help those trying to compare between them. Secondly, I did not know if the measurements included protrusions like lens bulges or things like the ring to which the lanyard attaches. Some sites list weight with, some without batteries and cards.

SIZE

Anyway, according to the dimensions listed at DPReview, we know that the F30 is a little thicker than the SD700IS (28 vs 26mm, or 1.1 vs 1.0 in). From my PDA buying days, I learned that the thickness affects pocketability way more than lengths and widths. So I thought the SD700IS would be more pocketable.

I'm sorry to report NEITHER the SD700IS or the F30 are truly pocketable in size. By pocketable, I mean fitting into either the front or back pockets of jeans and pants. We are not talking about the knee pouches on cargo pants or hand pockets on jackets, both of which are much larger. Nor are we talking about dress shirt chest pockets, which cannot even hold my Motorola RAZR phone without pulling the shirt down.

So for those interested in finding a clubbing camera (I assume clubbing fashion is relatively similar in different parts of the world -- usually fairly tight-fitting, to show off the clubbers' physique), you might want to look at the Pentax Optio series (about 20mm or 0.8 in) or the Casio Exilim S_00s (about 16mm or 0.6 in). Here's two comparison photos between the slimmer SD700IS and my RAZR phone (13.9mm or 0.55 in), which I consider TRULY pocketable in dimension:





WEIGHT/POCKETABILITY

This was another surprise. Dimensions alone do not tell you the full story about pocketability. As I said, even the RAZR (95g or 3.35oz) will weigh down a dress shirt, but it's the front or back pockets of pants/jeans I'm most interested in. I had no trouble carrying around a Pentax OptioS I used to have (115g or 4.1oz) in that fashion.

But when I tried the same with the the SD700IS (195g or 6.9oz) or the F30 (185g or 6.5oz), both of them were too heavy to carry in dress pants (jeans and khakis can bear more weight), not to mention the bulging I found unacceptable.

So, I ended up carrying them in my Targus cellphone pouch. (Again, clubbers, if you find belt pouches not fashionably acceptable, stay away from these two cameras!) Despite the slightly larger size of the F30, both of them fit the Targus pouch snugly:



(I only showed the bigger F30 in the pouch, with the SD700IS beside it. I'm assure you the SD700IS fits equally well.)

AESTHETICS/HANDHOLDABILITY

Yes, these two concepts seem to be unrelated, but this was another surprise for me.

As you can see, the SD700IS is more rounded at the edges (like a sport car), while the F30 is very angular (like a Volvo). While beauty is in the eye of the beholder, personally I find the SD700IS much better looking:







Obviously we all hold our cameras differently, but I'm old-school in that I always hold my cameras with two hands (elbows tucked in) for maximum stability. (No, I found the SD700IS' viewfinder pretty useless -- as I'll detail in the Ergonomics post -- so I hold the camera away from my face.) The rounded top (especially near the left side, where I usually rest my left index and middle fingers) made it hard to hold. Either my index finger slid down to the LCD, or worse, my middle finger slid forward and ended up blocking the flash, ruining a few shots. On the other hand, the F30, with its flat and wider top, I had no trouble holding the camera at all.

(Obviously, I can change my grip on the SD700 -- e.g. extending my left thumb along the left edge of the cameras, and extend the index finger along the underside of the camera -- but that's just not as comfortable/natural, at least for me. YMMV.)

In addition, even simple things like taking the camera out of my targus pouch (where I must grab the camera with only my right hand), the 7 rubber dots on the back and the decorative metal thingee on the front of the F30 made it much more secure to hold. The SD700IS, with its smooth back and front surfaces and the slight taper in shape, was MUCH harder to get a secure grip. (Obviously, I can attach the lanyard and pull on that instead. But the security of the grip helps boost confidence, even when I'm shooting, holding the camera with two hands.)

So in short, the much prettier look of the SD700IS made it harder to handhold. Also, I underestimated how much the 7 rubber dots and the decorative metal thingee on the F30 helped its handholdability. (Things you can't learn by looking at photos of cameras!)

--
http://retroblader.smugmug.com/

If you like my photos, praise the camera. If you don't, blame me (but please tell me how I can improve my photos.)

 

[Koosla]

I think that the third issue, image quality, is particularly interesting. Both in bright and dark conditions, I've seen doubts as to which camera fare better; the perceived notion, I think, is that the SD700 might be better suited for bright conditions whereas the F30 would be the one for dark ones. But I'm not so sure about that, so I'm anticipating your analysis.

Specifically under dark conditions, I'd be interested in seeing both cameras at their common higher ISO level (800); but since the Canon seems to perform far less internal noise reduction, it might be interesting not just to see straight-out-of-camera ISO800 photos, but also post-processed ones. In other words, if the apparently noisier SD700's ISO800 is de-noised in post-processing to visually equal that of the F30 in terms of noise, which one will retain more details?

Then there's the issue of the SD700's image stabilization. How many stops can it save on average? Let's say it is two stops, and in a certain situation the F30 needs ISO800 whereas the SD700 can do with ISO200. Would the F30's apparent noise advantage be enough to make this ISO800 photo at least as clean as the SD700's ISO200? Of course it goes without saying that the image stabilization advantage will only apply when the subject is static.

Eagerly waiting for your tests.

--
Canon headquarters, circa March 2007:

'Say, do users really need RAW in the EOS450D and 40D? Why not leave it only in the 6D and 1Ds Mark IV?'

 

[Nedlyj]

Nice comparison!

 

[RetroBlader]

See:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=20061085

--
http://retroblader.smugmug.com/

If you like my photos, praise the camera. If you don't, blame me (but please tell me how I can improve my photos.)

 

[roblarosa]

Seems fair and balanced so far. Thanks for doing this.

 

[Gian_lle]

Hi, RetroBlader!! And about the build quality, F30 or SD700 pleasing more you??

I feel that the black surface in the back of SD700 is more fragile than the rest of the body´s camera and I can't define if it's plastic or metal. Am I wrong??
I never take the SD700 in my hands, but I'm planning to buy one.

Please, sorry my bad english, this is my first post in DPreview forums and I need to pratice more.
Well, thanks for the atention.
Gian.
--
From Brasil!!

 

[easygoer]

i have to disagree with you about the portability of these cameras.

i've carried around a fuji A330 in my front jeans pocket many times and it's 31mm thick. the F30 is 28mm and the SD700 is 26mm, so neither should be a problem.

by the way, i don't wear skin tight jeans...... i wear loose fit (not baggy)
no one should be wearing tight jeans anyways.

also, i don't understand why anyone would put a digital camera in the back pocket of your jeans. how do you sit down?

anyways, both those cameras, without a carrying case, are easily pocketable in my opinion.

 

[RetroBlader]

See:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=20065318

(I'm alternating the forums as I go, so Part 3 will be posted here again.)

--
http://retroblader.smugmug.com/

If you like my photos, praise the camera. If you don't, blame me (but please tell me how I can improve my photos.)

 

[jst4fun]

i think you are doing an awesome job with this review so far.

just wish I could get you to compare the F30 against every camera I'm contemplating

btw, I have the F11, and screen definitely suffers from a limited viewing angle. the good news is that it is still good enough for framing shots, and when reviewing shots you CAN look straight-on, and see a good image, so I don't think it impedes me much, just annoying.

I know I like canon colors and ergonomics better, but i'm just so so tempted to go for the F30, because of it's ISO800, and because I've really enjoyed some of my F11's ISO 400 shots.

I will probaby be shopping for the new A710, or G7, because I miss IS, and miss longer zoom (used to have a Canon S1)... but I'm not hopefully about noise levels, even with DIGIC III.

I may end up buying F30 and G7, and doing my own little compare

keep up the good work.

 

[lovEU]

Specifically under dark conditions, I'd be interested in seeing
both cameras at their common higher ISO level (800); but since the
Canon seems to perform far less internal noise reduction, it might
be interesting not just to see straight-out-of-camera ISO800
photos, but also post-processed ones. In other words, if the
apparently noisier SD700's ISO800 is de-noised in post-processing
to visually equal that of the F30 in terms of noise, which one will
retain more details?

Koosla, I fully agree with your suggestion otoh. But I've to admit: It sounds a little bit funny to me since usually that argument (have to compare post-processed pics) pops up in C/N-discussions about the better out-of-cam results produced by Canons DSLR models at high ISO settings ;-)

Then there's the issue of the SD700's image stabilization. How many
stops can it save on average? Let's say it is two stops, and in a
certain situation the F30 needs ISO800 whereas the SD700 can do
with ISO200. Would the F30's apparent noise advantage be enough to
make this ISO800 photo at least as clean as the SD700's ISO200? Of
course it goes without saying that the image stabilization
advantage will only apply when the subject is static.

but that's not the only point: "How many stops can it save on average?" I'm sure you are aware there are many shooting conditions where you have to stop motion. And that is where IS doesn't help - you need a fast lens + excellent high ISO performance here. E.g. street photography or clubbing situations like the OP describes often acquire fast shutter speed. Here it is not only a question of eliminating vibration.
---
regards, eric

 

[JohnTiger]

Great job, Retroblader! I think it's fantastic that there are people like yourself who write these kinds of comparison reviews. In "official" reviews it's often the case that the reviewer just states the obvious he/she gets from the spec sheet and then give some opinions about the image quality. I think especially in part I you are going in the right direction because after all size/style is truly important. These ARE (ultra)compact cameras and the name itself justifies analysing the physical appearance of these cameras. Moreover, these are the kind of cams people use as take-it-everywhere cams and especially many people (at least where I live) use these kind of cams as party-cams.

It is always interesting to see the different opinions about pocketablity. Some are of the opinion that for example Sony T30 is too bulky to be worn comfotably inside a pocket where some think those compact cameras that weigh well over 200g and the depth of which is over 28mm are still pocketable.

My two cents is that these two cameras are pocketable to a certain extent. No, if you are going to wear trendy clothes to a club these cameras are just too thick (yes, depth is the deciding factor, not weight or other dimensions) to be worn inside jeans pocket. But I think they can be worn inside a pocket of looser pants or inside the inner brest pocket of a suit jacket. I'm going to buy Fuji F30 soon and yes, for parties, concerts and such. For months I stressed over whether or not to get Panasonic FX07 or Sony T30/T10 but finally I decided that there's no sense in getting either one because I doubt I'd be happy about the pocket-friendliness if their performance in low light dissappointed me. So I'm getting F30 but I won't be taking it with me when I go dancing or something. I'm gonna put it in my backbag and leave it there when I'm in situations where I need to feel comfortable with no bulging.

It is sad that there aren't really no under 24mm low light marvels around in the camera market but on the other hand I'm the kind of guy anyway who when dancing would worrry about the cam even if it was under 20mm in depth. So through that logic Fuji F30 will be the right choice for me.

So keep it up, RetroBlader. We all appreciate what you are doing and big thanks especially for the size comparison pics. And in case some of you were wondering, I haven't tested any of these cams. I've just read the spec sheet and from that drawn conclusions. I have tested Panny FX01, Sony T9 and Canon SD550 so I pretty have an idea what is pocketable and what is not (Panny is, Sony definately is but Canon is not). And finally, I think the main problem of the size opion thing is that some people don't mind big bulges in their pockets or the camera pressing their legs as they walk or sit. And then they come here and say that cameras even bigger than Fuji F30 are easily pocketable. You've got to understand that "pocketable" today doesn't mean that a camera can be put inside a pocket. It means that a camera can be put inside a pocket with ease and that when you move you don't feel any discomfort. That's what in my opinion "pocketable" means.

 

[Aussie bloke]

Good stuff Retroblader!

It's so rare to see direct one-on-one comparisons like this. Usually people only have one or the other and naturally tend to give a biased opinion. Your efforts are much appreciated!

The part I really look forward to is the comparison of image quality. Yes size is very important to me, but not at the (significant) cost of image quality. I just hope you can do some EXACT comparisons using the most common settings.

What really bugs me is websites with sample photos that either:

1. Only show pictures in perfect conditions. e.g only outdoor shots on a clear sunny day. In these conditions most cameras will produce a great shot.

or

2. Show comparison shots that are not at all identical. e.g one taken much earlier or later in the day when the light has changed. Often this means different apertures or shutter speeds and just generally different lighting and exposure.

As you say, it's not easy because there are so many different combinations to test. But the most important thing is that they are identical. (Ok sometimes hard outdoors when the light is changing, but as close as possible, and certainly indoors they can be identical.)

Anyway, look forward to whatever you have time to do. Great comparison so far.

Cheers

 

[Koosla]

Koosla, I fully agree with your suggestion otoh. But I've to admit:
It sounds a little bit funny to me since usually that argument
(have to compare post-processed pics) pops up in C/N-discussions
about the better out-of-cam results produced by Canons DSLR models
at high ISO settings ;-)

Yeah, I know. It sounds funny to label as "fair" a comparison between a carefully post-processed SD700 image, and a right-out-of-camera F30's. But I think that by now it is common knowledge that Canon tends (G7 notwithstanding) to more moderate internal de-noising than, say, Panasonic, Fuji or Sony. Since there already are comparable non-processed ISO800 samples for both cameras here in DPReview, what we might need is a comparison that takes into account each camera's approach to internal NR.

but that's not the only point: "How many stops can it save on
average?" I'm sure you are aware there are many shooting conditions
where you have to stop motion. And that is where IS doesn't help -
you need a fast lens + excellent high ISO performance here. E.g.
street photography or clubbing situations like the OP describes
often acquire fast shutter speed. Here it is not only a question of
eliminating vibration.

Which is why I add this at the end:

[...] Of
course it goes without saying that the image stabilization
advantage will only apply when the subject is static.

;-)

--
Canon headquarters, circa March 2007:

'Say, do users really need RAW in the EOS450D and 40D? Why not leave it only in the 6D and 1Ds Mark IV?'

 

[lovEU]

Yeah, I know. It sounds funny to label as "fair" a comparison
between a carefully post-processed SD700 image, and a
right-out-of-camera F30's. But I think that by now it is common
knowledge that Canon tends (G7 notwithstanding) to more moderate
internal de-noising than, say, Panasonic, Fuji or Sony. Since there
already are comparable non-processed ISO800 samples for both
cameras here in DPReview, what we might need is a comparison that
takes into account each camera's approach to internal NR.

maybe its just as simple like that:

• comparison very interesting for advanced users (what the former G-users used to be...)
• not relevant for the "normal P&S-shooters" since they will not touch de-noising software

course it goes without saying that the image stabilization
advantage will only apply when the subject is static.

oops - good morning!

---
regards, eric

 

[Ducht Oldtimer]

When discussing "pocketablity "there is a big difference of the word in the real world. One talks about jeans, shirtpockets while others may talk about an outdoorjacket or wide cargo pants.As someone pointed out a cell phone may already present a burden when pocketed. We may think about an FBI shoulder holster ) to carry a camera around.

But for jeans/pants manufacturers there is an opportunity to increase their sales. Design jeans/pants with special stitched on pockets where most of the cameras and/or cellphones may find a safe place without bothering much when sitting in a car or public transport. No need for baggy pants while going out for a photo-shooting party! Many winter jackets have such a pocket for cellphones, so why not in jeans etc.?

 

[theranman]

MY opinion of pocketability is a COMBINATION of Retroblade and John Tiger's observations. I agree with both.

I was at Costco yesterday playing with the cameras. I had previously felt that small camera size was a bit more important to me than camera feel, but have now completely reversed my opinion. At this point, I beg you folks to differentiate between "compact" and "ultra-compact". After playing with the cameras for a half hour, my feeling is that while only "ultra-compacts" are truly pocketable, COMPACTS feel MUCH better in my hands. For instance, the little Panny FX07 felt perfectly sized for me, while the super skinny Pentax, although much more pocketable, felt like trying to take a pic with a credit card!...uncomfortable. Note: I'm only 5'7" and I don't have large hands.

And another heresy: Even the MUCH larger Panny TZ1 felt ok to me, not as a "pocketable", but as a carryable. I'm now ok with that.

John Tiger, I'm glad to see that you weren't stuck on the must-have absolutely smallest, thinnest cam. Although I think they are emminently more pocketable, I'll never buy one. They're not only too uncomfortable to shoot with, which I never thought I'd say, but from what I'm reading, their IQ just isn't in the same league as the compacts.

Additionally, I now consider a 2.5" LCD screen as the bare minimum, and hard to accept after playing with a 3".

Lastly, I'm glad to know that I'll still be happy with a little bit larger camera like the TZ1, LX2, SD800, or even larger.

I'd love to see a shootout between the Ricoh R5, Panny FX07, and Canon SD800IS.

I make the final decision after Photokina and after a few pro reviews come in.

 

[interpic]

Koosla wrote:

"Yeah, I know. It sounds funny to label as "fair" a comparison between a carefully post-processed SD700 image, and a right-out-of-camera F30's. But I think that by now it is common knowledge that Canon tends (G7 notwithstanding) to more moderate internal de-noising than, say, Panasonic, Fuji or Sony. Since there already are comparable non-processed ISO800 samples for both cameras here in DPReview, what we might need is a comparison that takes into account each camera's approach to internal NR."

----------------------------------------------------------------

Koosla, what would be REALLY fair is then a comparison between the out-of-the-camera ISO 800 image from both cams and another comparison between the software-de-noised ISO 800's, again, from BOTH cameras.

And I say that because from your words I get the impression that you think that cause of the more in-camera de-noising that you say the F30 has, then it's images CAN'T be post-processed with noise reduction software. And that is not the case. The F30 pictures DO benefits from out of camera de-noising software. They simply get a little better than they were before the process. And I'm talking about ISO 800 (if it will be printed large) and up to 3200, because from ISO 100 to 400 it doesn't need any de-noising.

It's not all because of stronger internal de-noising on the F30 part. Then the other P&S brands could "easily" rival the quality high ISO performance of the Fuji by simply use a little more agressive internal de-noising. Why they don't do just that?

Because a little more than internal de-noising is needed to acomplish that. Like a good sensor and processing technology ... good engineering (in terms of high sensitivity performance).

 

[tjdean01]

Hey Aussie Bloke. Just curious, have you bought a new camera yet? I haven't. I'm liking the SD800 best out of everything they have out right now, though. (meaning the Fuji F30 and the SD900)

(I compared the two new Canons here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=20072782 )