Canon's Chuck Westfall has seen the company introduce a lot of new technology, but it's safe to say he hasn't seen anything quite like the launch of the EOS 5DS and 5DS R. Our own Richard Butler sat down with Chuck to talk about the new 50MP sensor, what sort of noise performance and dynamic range we can expect to see from it and the cameras' intended audience - take a look.
Canon could have left the 5D3 as is and just put in a sensor with the Dynamic Range of the D810 and be done with it and I would have personally moneygrammed the money for the new camera on the spot.
well, they followed nikon into ISO mad land after they were focusing on MP. Now they follow nikon into MP after they were focusion on ISO mad land. So it stood to reason that they would follow sony into DR mad land...or just wait. If you want to know what canon will do, watch everybody else :)
and oh, nobody shipped a camera with two versions of AA strategy :) never happend.
Richard did this interview at the CP+ trade show. Having attended many of those, I know that you get very, very tired. Show floor all day, industry dinners in evening. AND jet lag when traveling to another continent.
Perhaps Richard is more lively when he is back at the office, well rested.
I've seen a lot of people say that the 5ds used the 7d2 sensor tech. However Chuck Westfall did not say that. He said it used the same pixel size as and the same processor (i.e. DIGIC version).
He also said the same DR as the 5d3 and noise about the same as the 7d2. To me that does not imply the same sensor tech as the 7d2.
If the exact same sensel design and fab are used, yield on the FF sensor will be pretty terrible, bumping sensor cost an order of magnitude. My guess would be that Canon is in fact doing that, but increasing yield by setting a lower threshold for acceptable performance... which would explain the lower max ISO. It wouldn't shock me if max ISO went up as they got more experience tweaking the fab line.
I've read that the 5DS and 5DS R have a more saturated RGB filter to achieve more accurate colour rendition. You would think that would be a major camera feature but no one is talking about it. Nor are they pointing out that a stronger RGB filter will result in a lowering of the upper ISO limit when the low ISO limit is questioned.
I've read the same thing and I think a lot of people are missing that or don't understand the implications or potential audience for the higher colour fidelity that that might deliver.
You can tell a lot from his body language and eye expression and contact, that he himself cant get excited about the camera. In fact it seemed he was pushing the 5d3 more than the 5ds. Westfall, would make a terrible politician, and I mean that as a compliment.
This is a niche camera for studio and commercial photographer who need very large prints, and have controlled lighting. paid with excellent canon glass, it will produce very detailed images.
Its a shame though that canon can solve the DR riddle.
Is this guy serious? Chuck please, take a look at these cameras: 1) Sigma DP2 Merrill for ultimate pixel level image quality 2) Pentax 645 and Nikon D810 for high resolution image WITH great dynamic range and ISO performance 3) Samsung NX1 for video features and image quality 4) Panasonic GH4 for overall versatility without compromises and possibility to use any lens on M43 mount on mirrorless body 5) tiny Blackmagic PCC for ability to shoot 10-bit Prores and 12-bit Raw video 6) Sony A7S for magic ISO and dynamic range performance Now tell me, do you think about your new pricey cameras? What are you going to offer?
Thank you for the interview, DPR and good job. I always enjoy hearing what the camera execs have to say. It has been one of the more interesting camera news years already.
I keep wondering how, in the case of new cams, which **aren't available yet** that anyone can say that "I own it" or "I had it". What's that all about?
I am still amazed at how Canon can "do no wrong" in the eyes of their diehard customers. Yes they certainly have an extensive range of lenses that other companies like Sony and Fuji don't have yet.
However, those companies are building up their lens lineups quickly. One day the lack of lenses for other companies won't be an excuse. It is just a question of how long that will be.
First, I wish Canon every success in this endeavor. As an announcement it seems a little odd, but maybe not so. Maybe the announcement, this long before there is any camera to buy, is intended to stop the flow of customers to the D810. On the other hand, deference to the 5DMkIII seem aimed at wanting to encourage in the mean time, those who would purchase that camera to so so. It does feel as though we are near the point where the value of extra mp doesn't really offset the performance degradation in low light. After a lot of experience with the A7r I returned to Nikon for the better lens selection...but chose the D750 instead of the 810 because of low light performance. From my perspective, what would make cameras more enticing now is not more megapixels, but better low light performance, better dynamic range, quicker live view response... But notwithstanding, I wish Canon success with this.
It is not "long" before they are available. 6 to 8 weeks which is more than consumer models typically from Campn but less time than for 1-series launches or new L lenses. And from what ice seen the 5D3 has outsold the d800's.
This gentlemen seriously needs a press training. Never talk about negatives, always position positives. Don't mix "Canon sayd" with "we did..." if you want to be perceived as independent. He seems to be a very respectable and nice guy, but this was pretty bad for a spokesperson.
Why not? Canon can say anything they want and their loyal customers just keep handing them their money. The only way for this to end is if those customers realize there are other options out there. That won't happen until the other companies catch up in lens department.
Hummm. Ready to buy a new camera. Not too impressed with the release data, or the price. Maybe it’ll be better than it sounds. Guess I’ll rent for a while. Maybe see how some of the other brands are doing. With 3 older L lens and a couple of non L’s, it may be time to look somewhere else. Sad day IMO.
He doesn't really know anything about the camera but a company called Canon told him something totally not specific about this new product which is not that special compared to the old one... :-) Great "I'm just working here" attitude, usually found only among workers at bottom level but here we have a guy who is executive for USA and has it. Give him dpreview gold award. :-)
@cgarrad Yes. Two stops DR is significant when you are talking about a total of less than twelve. When shooting sunny architectural exteriors, those two stops typically cross the threshold between shooting a single exposure or having to bracket and composite later.
A large portion of my money comes from architectural photography. I have worked with Phase One, Canon, Nikon, and Sony brand platforms. Canon currently has the best lenses for architectural work, and the worst sensors. It vexes me that Canon specifically touts this camera for architectural work, yet they install a sensor that performs dead last in DR among its competition. At least it will keep my retouching business thriving.
I have shot Canon since 2003. I would like to continue shooting Canon because of their unquestionably dominant EF lineup. If you are a sports, portrait, studio, or predominantly telephoto shooter it still makes sense. For wide angle available light work, sensor technology has moved on.
They will line up near iso 400-800 on DR. And going dark the Canon sensor will be better, according to DXOmark.
I personally doesn't care about noice: my 9 y.o. 350D has beatiful noice, where chroma easily corrected and I don't care about luma. BTW past two years I'm with Sony and the same approach.
a decade is a long time. I don't see any of the above being out of the question of other systems the way they were 10 years ago. I think the change has not really been away from canon, but into other's inclusion. In other words, you don't have to dump your gear, but it is no longer the case only canon had the gear. Kudos to Sony/Nikon for ensuring a healthy market where no one player dominates every aspect the way it was back in the apex of the canon years.
@vsharun Please cite your source. As of 22 March 2015 DXOMark has not yet tested the new Canon cameras.
The closest comparable sensor according to Westfall, the 7D mark II, remains a full stop behind Nikon from ISO 1600 through the top of its range. Below ISO 1600 (the range you will use for print), the difference is exacerbated.
According to dpreview's testing of the most current Nikon sensor (the D750, which mostly just echoes other recent Nikon sensors) "going dark" is far preferable on Nikon. They devoted a whole section to this in the D750 review.
@TomHudsonVisual, Thank you for comment: on dxomark site, go to compare camera sensors, select the cameras you want to compare, click "compare up to 3 items", then there will be href to the measurements, then few tabs will apear: all of them has pretty interesting graphs inside.
When are more pixels not welcome? Expensive cameras once had 5MP and people tried to say that was all you needed. BS. This is tremendous and the ability to crop unmatched. If the DR is good enough, and forget video on such a camera - who cares - the possibilities are enormous. Btw, I own Nikon equipment. I hope they come out with a 100MP sensor.
The dynamic range is going to be the same as the 5DIII and the actual resolution gain over the D810 is going to be small at best. Plus the noise is on the same level as the 7DII. More mps are great but overall the D810 sensor is better. Plus the new, higher megapixel Sony sensor for the A7RII and probably the D820 is right around the corner so canon is about to lose the small resolution advantage as well.
I haven't bought a Canon product in almost 3 years. I would love to try one of these out. But, I ain't going to buy one. I agree with others I would buy the 810 instead without a doubt. And I am a Canon shooter.
He's just describing video differences, not a major thing for those wanting the utmost resolution. I've never heard if a MF camera with video, have you?
RedFox88, if I understood your question correctly, you are looking for medium format video camera? Check out Pentax 645Z, it shoots 1920X1080 at 60i/50i/30p/25p/24p
LOL even with a little less resolution the D8xx series is still a way better landscape camera if the 5Ds/r really has the same noise performance as a 7DII and the same dynamic range as a 5DIII. Even worse I think the ISO topping out at 6400 and his comments about why it's not as high as the 7DII's are very telling. I bet the noise performance is actually a little worse then the 7DII's. That's not even mentioning Canon's inexplicable decision to neuter the video features for no reason or the ridiculous price. So close but so far away lol.
Well, what exactly is going on here. THe 5D MkIII is as good because this will not be released until june and you might want one in the meantime? Unless you want BIG, there is no advantage, DR same, noise worse, hmmm. Less to go for in video than a 5D MkII .
Ok guys, listen up.
When I buy ANY camera it is to be able to take ANY picture WELL! My D800 does this. The noise is no worse than a D3 downsampled to 12MP (with MUCH more detail) I can use APS-C mode to get as good as 1D MkIV frame rates (YES!!with better IQ)
It does everything.
The IQ is NOT as good as certain other machines, agreed, but they cannot do everything well (Canon 1Ds MkII, Sony A7R etc).
Nikon do not have this three or four tier system in which DR and resolution, and the buffer, are deliberately crippled to get you to buy a 1Dx (or in their case, D4s)
One camera should be all anyone needs, and it should last a lifetime. If you buy another, it should be because it does everything as well, but you just like it!
If you think these cameras look bad now just wait a year or two until the D820 and/or A7R with similar resolution but much better noise performance, dynamic range and video features come out for less money. Sure Canon's got the pixel count but in every other way their sensor is still way behind every other sensor manufacture. It's kind of sad. So close to being the best but so far away as well.
I'm not so sure I would agree with one of your comments here.
It's true that Nikon does not create a 'Tier' system by crippling sensor performance....the entry level D5xxx series cameras tend to have a top level performance, and the enthusiast Df beats all cameras on high ISO.
But they do seem cripple them by buffering! Only the cameras intending for full professional use can shoot flat out non stop.
God. I wish I could go back to all of those guys who I've had to stand next to at airshows or when birding or at sporting events. They sit there with 30 pounds of DSLR and lenses. They would look over at my 5n, or A6000, or A7r and laugh. Now I am not going to say I told you so, but....
Well, who's laughing now?
Have fun with your slew of new garbage cameras Canonites. Those lenses must feel like an albatross around you necks, no?
But we *have* the lenses. You stick with useless glass and dream of a 400mm f2.8. Is it nicer to have the best sensor but nothing to screw in front of it? Nice try.
That whole glass lasts thing is going to get pretty old pretty fast. Sony is innovating and making plenty of new excellent lenses in conjunction with Zeiss. Not to mention what Fuji is doing. Over the past 5 years Sony has created more new, exciting, and innovating products than your dinosaur Canon has in the past 15. So in 10 years time when every one of Canons lenses has been duplicated and even superseded given advances in design, coatings, and construction techniques you had better hope Canon finally realizes they are getting left in the dust and that people actually care about bodies. No matter how good your glass is, sticking on the front of a camera with what will be a sensor who's technology was surpassed a decade before will start to get kind of boring, no? Or is having technology carried over from a MKII of 2008 acceptable to you? Your glass can't compensate for what Canon's garbage sensors can't record.
Oh I'm sorry, can you cite all of those fantastic Canon lenses that I can't get for Nikon, or Sony, or Pentax? You will fall back on specialty glass that the vast majority of users don't care about. Sigma, Zeiss, and even Tamron are making lenses that will make L glass not necessary, and are making them cross mount. Heard of the ART series? Or anything Zeiss?
haha, nothing like 9 people upvoting a guy bragging about his system having an $11,000 lens. Congratulations. I will just dream of the day Sony makes that same piece of glass so I can keep dreaming about never buying it because I would have absolutely zero use for it. Nor would 99% of camera owners. You Canon fanboy's, and I hate to use that term, will defend your brand until it shrivels up and dies. You are the problem. Not Canon. If you keep defending their pathetic attempts at "competing" you are only enabling them. Hang on for dear life because you're about to hit the iceberg.
I don't know what you did today, except of trying to bash on me (by the way, you failed), but I did some fantastic pictures in the studio with an old 5D, not Mark 2 or 3, the old one. There was *no* single minute were the theoretical disadvantage of DR was even visible. This cam is from 2005. So apart from your brickwall-pixelpeeping and reading tec specs, there is nothing helping you for getting better pictures then to get yourself out of a nerdy forum. I had an Zenza Bronica and an D810 with me. I don't care about Vendors as you do. If you have a daily Dynamic Range problem you should read a book about how to use filters or HDR. But I think you always shoot against the window in a dark room, just the pull the shadows in post, span*ing you for your good body-purchase.
And, Sony made good glas? When? The only thing after buying Minola was getting in contract with Zeiss which ended up in a massive coop. 3-4 Lenses are available for the A7, nothing like a 85 f1.2, 11-24 nor 200-400.. just standard-bulkware or manual Zeissglass. What did Sony invent? DPAF? A 11mm Fullframe Wideangle? Any good lense (Zeiss is not Sony!)? They did nothing except a quite good sensor (it really quite good). I got this sensor in a better cam (D810) without the crappy SonyControls around. The Expeed even outperforms the BionZ, on their own sensor (!). What a punch in their face.
Canon made a lot of things wrong, right, but the lenses are quite good. Of course you can bash on them, you can hate as you always do. What cares the oak if the pic scrubbs. Sometimes I think it's better this way... getting rid of users who just jump from Review-Golden-Star-Winner to another. Settle down, get away from the gear and start to shoot.
That was a funny one, even if i shoot Canon, i like that line. Well, they are waking up, it takes time to come with new technology, i have hear the the manufacture was crippled because of the earthquake and they had to start from scratch.... That was a bad one
For the love of pixels, please get some marketing / sales training! We all want Canon to succeed and sell gobs of cameras but it doesn't help when you tell us in a monotone:
-One new model is better than the other cuz one is blurry. -The older 5DIII has better low light performance, higher ISO, better and "more pleasant" video than the new cameras you are promoting. -The 5DS R is aimed at landscape shooters vs. the 5DS which is great for those shooting "architecture and herringbone suits." -Wedding photographers should buy this expensive 50MP camera but dial it down to sRAW so that they don't use all the megapixels. -"Canon feels" and "They tell us"... Don't you work for Canon? Show a united front.
Watch a Steve Jobs video, read a book about giving presentations, instill some excitement in your new products. Gush about the new / improved features, don't repeatedly tell us what it doesn't have & can't do. Tell us about the types of photographers who are going to be excited about 50MP.
"Canon feels" and "they tell us" It seems the guy is thinking"...what the hell are those guys in Japan smoking?!" I'm a Nikon user,but i want Canon to release cutting edge products. Why?Because that will make other manufactures to try harder. This is like"move along,nothing to see here" !!
I'm eager to see him next try to explain why they took two similar T6i prototype designs and decided "Let's just offer them both! Let the consumer decide! We'll charge $100 for the addition of a rear dial!"
It seems they have reached the "let's throw it all against the wall and see what sticks" phase. Not a good sign.
He almost sounds like he knows he is letting down every one's hopes when he starts talking about the dynamic range and noise. I mean 50mps with the same high noise, low dynamic range sensor tech from 2008 in an over priced body with unnecessarily neutered video features isn't exactly what people were hoping for from Canon as far as a D810 competitor goes.
is the sales guy the problem or the product? Everybody knows the drawbacks of sRAW and high MP when it comes to certain applications. His sugar coat doesn't help. And as for the strenghts, there is so much you can say: it's more freaking pixels people. That's it. He said it in 3 seconds so there was a lot of other stuff he can't really point out as being better. thus why he sounds like that.
nothing interesting except that new mirror mechanism. why bother with two variants of the camera since it will have very little chance of moire with zooms or lightweight primes?
Sad day for us who have invested in Canon system and have been waiting for Canon sensor DR to catch competition. Pixels can limit printing size to huge instead of enormous (=not so important) but DR really affects what kind of art you can make with your camera... Canon executives should take a long hard look at dxomark scores and especially DR results. No more denial... We can't wait forever, best lens selection on market handicapped by mediocre sensor design, such a shame.
more importantly. I often hear (specially from canon guys prior to this model) tell me "I don't need more MP". I know half said that because they couldn't get it, but half meant it, and that is a larger amount of people than the ones that told me they have too much DR....which is about...0
It is true, get accustomed. Canon is stuck at 11 DR stops for the moment. If you want higher than, search elsewhere! If you want video better than HD, also look elsewhere!
Seriously...do you think before you type?? Anyone buying a $4k camera knows what an AA filter does....in case you hadn't noticed this isn't aimed at the P&S crowd.
Of course its blurred - The pixels on the sensor are 3.8uM which means diffraction takes in at f8.0 and gets worse up to f16.
Also Canon played out an old marketing trick - leaving out features to not undermine other Canon camera's. Not having video in 2015 is unbelievable. Canon should have put 4K video in this camera making it the 'hi-res' range. But that would undermine their C-series.
AA filter is always blurring the image, but at the same time also ensure that the moire effect is lessened. If you buy the edition without AA filter you also run into the risk of having to handle that artifact yourself.
No, they tell it's same effect as in the D800E. The AA effects are canceled with similar piece of glass right next to the usual filter, presumably to have consistent light path from lens to sensor as the amount of glass above sensor affects image quality, see http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter
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