Vantage Point: The aviation photography of Jon Pece

Make yer mind up! No point apologising for someone calling you an a..hole and then, by your own admission, you state your proudness of such stature.

Jorepuusa - A correction. My comment was not ever aimed at you. In point of fact, I never read any comment of yours relating to this Vantage Point piece. My comment was directed to another individual whose inappropriate comment I did read. I understand your concern regarding weapons of all shapes and sizes, but respectfully disagree with your conclusion in this context.

If your argument carries, my friend, and the US has no love for the Messerschmitt, then why are there at least 3 in an airworthy condition, a further 9 on display and 24 more listed as being in storage or under restoration in the USA alone? That to me is a more interesting argument. The US appears to have more than any other country in the world at this time.....

How did a discussion on photography become a discourse on war? They are excellent photographs...a show of immaculate technique and fine composition. Stay focussed folks!

If we are talking about the people involved with flying these planes over many years and the death and destruction you talk about, have you ever stopped to consider , if not for them, where you might be now and whether or not you would live in a country where you are free to indulge in recreational photography? Have you ever stopped to consider how much lens development and camera tech comes from the armed forces? I agree with matt k and personally I enjoyed a perspective that I would never see myself.

Why?

They're not strong photos. And the first one is a copy of other's work.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/06/08/a-stirring-video-presentation-of-world-war-ii-and-the-deaths-it-caused/

@BigOne
"So far, the number of innocent people tortured by the US Armed Forces and CIA vastly exceeds the imagination of Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong-il, Mao Tse Tong and Pol Pot combined."

Source?

That's because the terrorists the US (and other nations!) are fighting ARE, in fact, beheading people. The term "monsters" is just an opinion, and the poster is entitled to this opinion. You, on the other hand, make a preposterous numeric claim that, judging by your reply, you cannot provide sources for. This is not surprising since your statement is obviously false.

Judging by the number of your replies to this thread, you must have a particular ax to grind. That's your prerogative, but when you throw around nonsensical statements that you cannot show any evidence for, it just makes you look foolish.

Cameras do not yet deliver enough DR to cover the blazing inferno of the explosions and the dark tones of blood on sand in one shot..

Maybe the new A7R II will?

On the other hand: where are the pictures of people killing eachother with guns and knives and stuff, where everything we get to see are boring portraits?

These smiling pilots are soon going to be HISTORY.

15 years from now, the USAF will employ zero live pilots in actual flying aircraft. They are all going to be in hardened underground bunkers, controlling their killer toy-planes remotely.

Some lovely and heroic "profession", I say.

You're so right. Tyrants and terrorists should be left alone, so they can do the killing of citizens and children. They're so much better at it too, since they specifically target them.

It's so irresponsible of us to protect them, when they should be left alone to die. : . . (

"Wonderful pictures of war planes, but where are the pictures of US military planes bombing children and other civilians to pieces? Cannot see any. Romanticizeing killing machines feels absurd."

There are far fewer civilian casualties today and far less collateral damage than there was in the past. During WWII entire cities were carpet bombed as the norm. You live free today because of the willingness to do whatever it took to secure freedom.

People like you that are obviously against war and constantly talking against engaging in acts of war actually make war far more likey since you are exactly what the enemy wants, someone who will not fight and defend themselves. You indirectly encourage the tyrants and terrorists in the world.

As for admiring such planes, I would say most people admire them not only for the protection they provide for freedom loving people around the world, but also simply for technological and aviation appreciation.

DStudio--

Because the US never killed children in Vietnam or Iraq. Not.

christom:

How was the Vietnam war or the invasion of Iraq about freedom in the USA?

Also civilian casualties were horrendous in both wars, albeit the killing done by the USA in Iraq wasn't mostly from carpet bombing.

Christom and Dstudio are more correct but howaboutRaw has a point too. Yes, carpets were popular in the past and Agent Orange still lingers- however - fanatics blowing themselves and half a marketsquare up and recruiting others to do the same, not to mention the stance they take against homosexuals or women or dogs or pigs or menopause deserve every precision bomb there is.

That being said, I really like some of these avionics pictures, as well as that horses-with-super-rays-of-light photo. Nice to see a different perspective.

@HowaboutRAW Of course you are making an invalid comparison. America was in Vietnam helping a country defend itself from those who would take away their freedom. You are comparing collateral damage to what tyrants and terrorists do.

christom:

So you don't really know anything about Vietnam, thanks for confirming what I'd surmised.

The USA tyrannically invaded Iraq in 2003. Don't pretend otherwise.

"How was the Vietnam war or the invasion of Iraq about freedom in the USA?"

Would you have been in favor of America taking a Switzerland type role during WWII? You can't be for freedom of some countries and not for others. No doubt you benefit today because of America's crucial role during WWII. Do people in Asia deserve less freedom than you?

The only area that I would question such roles for America is simply the financial cost of such a thing. Morally, one can not argue against defending people against tyranny and invasion.

christom--

The US had no business backing a French re-colonization of Vietnam.

The US had no business starting a war of aggression in Iraq in 2003.

You have a fake idea of "freedom" and have zero clue about basic history.

@HowaboutRAW Actually, no, America did not "tyrannically" invade Iraq. If that were the case the destruction and damage done to Iraq and the Iraqi Army would have been far, far more worse and merciless.

America freed the Iraqi people from tyrants and introduced a democratic government and spent billions trying to rebuild Iraq, just as it did in Europe and Japan. No difference.

@HowaboutRAW It's clear you have a strong anti-American hate driving you so I don't expect reason, logic and facts to matter to you in this case. I've said enough to you on this subject.

christom:

One thing tyrants like to do is find and enemy can start wars, so yeah the USA did exactly what I said.

"America freed the Iraqi people from tyrants and introduced a democratic government and spent billions trying to rebuild Iraq, just as it did in Europe and Japan. No difference."

Ha, ha, ha, you just keep telling yourself that. And doing great disrespect to Iraqis and Americans who've died there. And now those dying in Syria because of what the US unleashed.

It's always funny to read American patriots blinded by their politics blaring out at all the rest of the world about what a wonderful job their country is doing..

Let me assure you that there's no country in the entire world (except for Israel maybe) that really apreciates you going to war against everyone with a different opinion.

In the end we'll be laughing in your faces when China buys the US of A because they're built out of debts and nothing else.

You should start at your own doorstep before you try to change everyone else!

@photominion

Then perhaps you are an America hater from North Korea, China, and Russia and have no appreciation or care for living in democracies and not under tyrants.

If you live in a free and democratic country then you have America to thank for that, not to mention a ridiculously endless number of products and services in your life that you likely also take for granted.

Sure, they are terrible things, lets leave for Kim Jong Il and the likes of him for having these symbols of babarism.
Cause we are civilized, we don't need killing machines!!

Get real...

I honestly don't see the freedom either..

Look at Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc.

How is their current situation ANY better than it was before the "Tyrants" were removed or the US of A marched in to save the day?

The way I see it, most Terrorists are what they are BECAUSE the US of A are so obstinately trying to bring their idea of freedom to everyone!

@Manuel "Why do conservative people always speak on behalf of "freedom"?"

What makes you think I"m "conservative?" Logically speaking no sane person needs to be convinced of the value of freedom.

"Their ideology precludes freedom, save for speculators and greedy CEOs."

So long as there is truly free and open competition in a market then CEOs should be able to earn whatever a company is willing to pay them. Clearly there are also ways for people in free and democratic countries to seek regulatory reforms. In dictatorships and communist countries you would have no way of even attempting to do such a thing.

"What freedom do they have in Iraq and Afghanistan, now that the 'tyrants' were ousted? Oh, wait, I know: "freedom fries..."

What freedom did Europe have after the Nazis were ousted? The only difference today is that we live in an insane, upside down, politically correct world where all the enemy has to do is wait until the lunatic Western countries lose interest.

@ christorn: Man, you are truly scaring the living Jezebels out of me. And probably out of everyone else here not 100% rabid with rabies, too.

With stuff like:

"America was in Vietnam helping a country defend itself from those who would take away their freedom."

MY DOUBLE TAKE: Huh?

"Perhaps you are an America hater from North Korea, China, and Russia..."

MY TRIPLE TAKE: Excuse me?

"If you live in a free and democratic country then you have America to thank for that..."

MY QUAD TAKE: You said -- WHAT??

@Francis Why would such things scare you? A proper response would be to try and dispute those facts.

@Manuel It's not about simply concurring with me. Whoever doesn't appreciate freedom and democracy is a communist, or a dictator. That's obvious.

As for your Bush comment, you're just showing your anti-Americanism.

Liberal brain rot!

@Manuel Feel free to explain what you think I did that somehow makes me a "naughty boy."

What "economy" are you talking about? If you're talking about America's, then what business is that of yours?? You're not American.

I believe in global warming possibly being caused by man. Pollution sure is.

Why would I want to ban Tesla cars??

What does the American right to bear arms, something I fully support, have to do with you as a non-American??

@christom Keep up the good fight.

"If you live in a free and democratic country then you have America to thank for that..."

There is no doubt about this. You're welcome to argue this back and forth but it doesn't change this basic fact.

"...when China buys the US of A because they're built out of debts..." There's no doubt about this either. It's scary as heck.

I live in Finland and I started this thread about US killing machines. We are a free and much more democratic country than USA cause those running for parliament or presidency here do not need to collect millions of dollars to be elected like in USA where only the rich can influence in politics.
But.
To thank America for a free Finland, bullsh.... USA delivered war airplanes for Soviet Union in WWII to kill Finnish soldiers who tried to save Finland from Soviet invasion. We got absolutely no help from USA in WW2 to fight for democracy. Not did Estonia fyi.
Second world war came cause winner states USA among them tried to totally destroy germany after wwI. Most of the wars and destruction during last 100 years are because of USA in some way. And how about Indians, did they have democratic rights...in USA...when settlers killed them...

@jorepuusa Rubbish. You would be part of Germany or Russia right now had it not been for the USA and the Western Allies. Finland was also a principle economic aid to the Soviet Union for decades trading goods and services to an evil empire which perpetuated the misery and death of millions. When the rest of the world turned their back on Communism, Finland took advantage of it. And settlers? Common.

By fuesting (4 hours ago)
@jorepuusa Rubbish. You would be part of Germany or Russia right now had it not been for the USA and the Western Allies.
---------
Unbelievable. You do not know history. USA and Finland were in opposite sides in WWII. And Finland an economic aid to Soviet...Hah. Look at the map and the sizes of two countries.. and try to say again that we helped anything.
Now I understand the state of teaching of history in anglo american countries there seems to be none. Settlers killed hundreds of thousands of native americans ( diseases etc) and pushed them to reservates---democracy????

Don´t know who You answer to "Howaboutraw".
USA sent military equipment to Soviet Union via Murmansk from 1942.
US made AiraCobra fighters killed thousands of Finnish soldiers in hands of Soviet pilots. Hypocritical is the US way and we small countries pay the bill.
This all started when I saw the ultranationalist US flag showing in cockpit ...machines that kill are not made for fun and the weakest are those who suffer the most..been a war photographer ( in Afganistan too) I know what I´m writing about.

jorepuusa,

I answer to myself.

No one disputes that the Soviet Union committed its own abuses. And it's not news to me that the US supplied the Soviets during the war. A point that I already made.

During the 1920s the US and England had ground forces in Poland backing a lowlevel "white" Russian war against the USSR. Bet the same is true of Finland. So there's more in the mix than simply the Soviets invading Poland, etc early in World War Two.

Manuel:

No learned American thinks the Soviets had little to do with beating back the Nazis, and defeating them.

As for the atomic bombings of Japan, there were higher immediate death tolls from other bombings, by the US. And the Japanese had inflicted serious casualties on US forces, in what was obviously a losing battle for the Japanese, when the US took Okinawa. So one horror avoided another. (And there may have been other far more secret motivations for using the atomic bomb, but that's speculative.)

There's nothing particularly covert about the US supplying the Soviets. Covert means hidden.

@Manuel Why are you so arrogantly and disrespectfully concerned about America's purely domestic affairs that have nothing to do with you and your country?

Tend to the domestic affairs of your own country.

@Manuel As for you claiming not to be anti-American, I can prove that you are. Your defense is that because you claim to admire certain aspects of America that somehow you can not be anti-American. That's not a logical defense. You could then say a person repeatedly arrested for stalking a love interest is not anti-that person. You, as a lawyer, should know better than that.

A true respect for another *democratic* country and its culture is to *accept their choices* on how they live and conduct themselves *on all matters* that have nothing to do with you or anyone else outside of their country. That's where people like you, and many others from your part of the world, fail miserably.

For people like you that claim to like, love and admire America, I say "yeah, only if it does exactly what you want it to do." That stalker example I used is quite fitting in this case. Tell me Manuel, how much of your time do you spend slamming America's purely domestic affairs?

@jorepuusa "And how about Indians, did they have democratic rights...in USA...when settlers killed them..."

As opposed to Indians killing settlers? Would you like me to describe in detail some of the ways they did that?

@Manuel "is it because the USA "tend" to domestic affairs by spying on their allies?"

Read more carefully. First, I'm talking as a citizen, as you are of your country. Second, I mentioned *democratic countries* and on matters that have nothing to do with any other country.

"Or is it because the USA "tend" to domestic affairs by spying on their allies?"

Considering that so many so-called Europeans are just as anti-American and interfering in our purely domestic affairs as you are then I have to say good job to the NSA.

"For your information, EVERYTHING that happens in the United States is of concern of the whole world. The world has suffered too much from the USA's misdemeanours to afford to have no opinion."

Oh really? How does the world suffer as a result of how America conducts its health care system, it's right to bear arms, or its disinterest in soccer?

You're just looking for excuses to interfere in America's purely domestic affairs, proving your anti-Americanism.

I wonder why don't you use the confederate flag as an avatar?

You represent everything people around the world hate about america and you seem to even like it that way...

I think we'd be in a precarious situation if a scenario like the WWII era rose again.

If I believe the rhetoric I read around here, much of Europe is too wimpy or brainwashed to defend itself anymore. And based on the current administration's behavior, I'm not sure the US would care enough to defend them, either.

@photominion Your opening remark regarding the Confederate flag is a good example of the kind of pretense, ignorance, arrogance, and ultimately disrespect and hostility, that eminates from your part of the world towards America and its purely domestic affairs, not to mention it's culture and it's history.

Do yourself a favor and don't pretend you know enough about that subject, and American culture, to try and debate an educated American about it. You'll make yourself look very foolish. Besides, it's none of your business. A trip to Disney World and watching our TV shows and movies doesn't make that any less so.

As for the hate around the world for America that you speak of, the vast majority of that is due to ignorance and jealousy of America's success, strength, influence, and dominance of so many markets and industries. Of course you also have some people that are communists, and other forms of freedom hating tyrants, that will naturally hate America. Oh well.

Christom, You speak about freedom but You are not free enough to use Your own name here. That is coward action.
There are no americans, You are all europeans who left to America because of religious reasons.
Taliban is fighting for their country which USA is invading... The way USA equipped Taliban is doing it is another matter and another matter is their dark interpretation of Islam. But still they are people who love their country which has been taken by US terrorist.
This poor christon asks me to think what indians did to settlers. The indians were trying to fight against those who tried to steal their country. Indians were native americans and loved their country which was stolen by whites who drove indians to reservates to die off tuberculosis and booze.
The school system in USA teaches history etc like communists did in SOviet Union. Onesided and false. So sad that he and other americans believe that we love them because of Disneyland, bad movies and soap and handguns.

"You are not free enough to use Your own name here. That is coward action."

What does my screen name have to do with freedom? Are you making some kind of threat?

"There are no americans, You are all europeans who left to America..."

No, some of our ancestors were.

You wish there were no Americans.

"Taliban is fighting for their country which USA is invading..."

Interesting that you defend people that brutalize, rape and murder people for simply acting human, and humane.

"Indians were native americans and loved their country which was stolen by whites who drove indians to reservates to die"

A native American is anyone *born in* America. 80% of American Indians do not live on reservations and most are proud Americans. You're conversing with one right now.

"So sad that he... believe that we love them because of Disneyland, bad movies and soap and handguns."

Then boycott other American products and services. I suggest you start with your computer and the Internet.

Christom, how do you explain the invasion of Iraq on lies created by US politicians in contradiction to CIA intel, causing the deaths of 800 000 Iraqi civilians, 500 000 of which elicited the comment on TV from Madeleine Albright "this collateral damage was worth it".
Given the choice between an admittedly heavy-handed dictator who was in fact the right man to keep Iraq together, who was secular and virulently opposed to fundamentalist religious groups (Al Qaeda ring a bell?), had nothing to do with 911 and under whom ISIS would never have gained support in Iraq (after having being created by the US in Syria with USD 500 million worth of arms) who admittedly killed 5000 Kurds with gas weapons supplied by the US, or chaos in Iraq due to US destruction of the status quo and 800 000 dead civilians, which would you choose?

Christom, how do you explain the fraud in labelling worthless mortgage packages as AAA on a truly gigantic, world-altering scasle up to 2008, causing a worldwide recession that affected every country and was the worst since 1929, and requiring the bailout of the banks and their gambles by taxpayer money to the tune of trillions of USD?

photominion - Truthfully, I'm not sure what to say to someone who's so content to live with evil in the first place ...

@Manuel Are you kidding? I'm sure if your clients saw what you have posted in this thread they would find another lawyer.

That someone that claims to be a lawyer and speaks as you do is quite scary.

christom:

The proposed replacement for the A10 isn't an attack plane, it's a fancy jet that's barely flies and wouldn't be any good at killing tanks.

Also the A10 hasn't been retired yet.

The plane you are referring, the F-35, is not what I was referring to. I said a new "attack plane."

I never mentioned anything about it already being retired.

As for the F-35 barely flying, that's just a simply silly and ignorant remark. Killing tanks doesn't require a slow flying aircraft either. The F-111 destroyed huge numbers of tanks and armored vehicles during the Gulf War.

@Ben An Apache doesn't replace an A-10. Different capabilities and far different load capacities.

christom, it wouldn't matter if you were the chief designer and a test pilot of the F-35. AllaboutME knows more.

I am a Viet vet. No one hates war more than one who has been there. I flew missions there. I have never gotten over that war. I care deeply about my comrades who reside on the wall and those that are disabled along with those casualties that followed. But that is a whole nother subject .My pilot training led me to a 41 year career in aviation. I love airplanes both military and civilian and flew my share of them. I think these pictures are an excellently done record of activities surrounding mid-air refueling. I still love photographing airplanes. Those who flew them were doing their duty. One can most certainly fault those politicians who sent them to battle but our troops did and do their best to serve their country. This thread after all is about photography and not about war. There are plenty of places to show off one's expertise elsewhere. Airplanes do not have a conscience. They go where someone points them.