I agree with you all. Mirrorless just isn't there yet. Getting pretty close, except in terms of matching DSLR ergonomics. The whole "small and light" synonymy with mirrorless needs to stop. Never mind small and light, just make them good solid efficient tools like DSLRs. Plus, FF MILC being more expensive than their DSLR "equivalents" just doesn't fly. Won't be too long before MILC is advantageous likely in all aspects (unless one prefers OVF). But not yet...

For me, the big advantage of DSLR is battery life. I see why some would prefer an optical viewfinder but I don't (although I do miss not being able to frame something when the camera is off, quirky behavior I know).

In regards to size, IMO, there is an advantage for street photography if you shoot primes. A mirroless with a small prime is a more effective street camera (I can carry my xt2 in my pocket with a 28mm lens). Once you get into the larger glass the fact that the body is smaller almost feels like a disadvantage.

Canon 6Dii sells at a higher price right now, and probably because it has a lot more features: more fps, great for fast photography, OVF which appeals to many people, bigger grip for handling, top LCD for seeing settings quickly, plus most of the RP features except for: focus points spread out with a few more points, and cropped 4K which although its there, it is not overly useful for pros at 24fps only, no 30fps, no 60fps. 6Dii is more a pro or semi pro camera, RP is more consumer with stripped features in a compact size. Add lens or EF adapter (is using EF lenses) and not so compact anymore.

There are plenty of disadvantages to mirrored cameras. As the bodies are often smaller, this can result in less capable tech. Lower fps in Canon mirrorless, less battery life, not as ergonomic or comfortable to hold - example Sony mirrorless, not as much room for mechanical inbody stabilization so Canon omits it for example. The top DSLRs will still be used by demanding pros for sports photos, fast action, and all day event shooters like the 5D4 and D750 and D850. Both mirror and non mirror will exist for years to come. Predictions and reality can be different. Mirrorless are just gaining popularity, but are not the leading tech for lots of pros, such as sports or event shooters.
Also Rebels with kit lenses just keep selling in consumer group.

True. I never denied the exist of many better cameras. What I wanted to say is that the investment decision don't have to be defended or proven to others. But somehow on this site, defending own investment/brand seems to be important, and many good photographers seem to be passionate about it.

you really shouldn't care one bit about any camera bashing especially not about the one you own.
this is a slippery road.

This post nicely encapsulates the dysfunction of these threads. No one's self worth should be impacted by public opinion about their camera gear.

The vast majority of cameras at the Paralympics will be Canon ones. Also at the Olympics, the Super Bowl, the World Cup and the Open Championship. At any major sporting event in the world Canon cameras will record the bulk of the images published in the media.

Cheers

Forever?
2020
2030
2040
2050 etc?

OK ....buy a Sony today because they will be very popular with professionals in 2040

Canon is just right fo me. And for buyers) Sony missing something again

@DrCastle:
Sony's great on paper. Only. It is an awful shooting experience vs. any DSLR with good ergos and menus.

What do you miss on Sony? I could count 20 Features that I would miss on a 6d

Canon could actually make a killing here, if they brought out a complete set of compact and affordable lenses in RF mount.

Especially if they brought out an even cheaper APS version of the RP, which they have hinted is a possibility.

Not everyone wants hugely expensive monster glass.

They could, if they decided to get off the f/1.2 needle.

@entoman- if you are willing to use a less well corrected prime or a slower one, you can get a small lens. The laws of optics dictate the size of the lenses. Electronics can be made more compact. But you can’t change how light rays bend.

"Small compact bodies need small compact lenses"
Which is precisely why I'll wait until Canon release a mirrorless APS-C body, as they surely will. In the past, I almost clicked "Buy now" on a couple of L series lenses, but their price and weight made no sense. Now that the R lenses are even more stupidly expensive and huge, I'll certainly never buy one.

@Reactive @entoman
Maybe you haven't noticed, but Canon released plenty of EOS M cameras since 2012. Making an R-mount APS-C body and special lenses for it is absolutely pointless. There won't be any small crop L lenses.

ecka - Yes the EOS-M system is in many ways more suited to those who want a compact outfit.

Canon have already dropped heavy hints in interviews that they may introduce an APS version. In its favour would be the fact that a given angle of view could be obtained with a lens of shorter focal length, and therefore lighter weight and probably cheaper cost.

The idea of the RF is to provide FF image quality in a simple, cheap and compact body. Issuing *only* heavy high grade glass is counter to this aim.

Camera/lens combos should as far as possible be balanced. Large lenses on the RP don't make sense, as they make the camera front-heavy, and are priced out of all proportion to the body. The body is small, light and "cheap", and it needs lenses with similar properties, if it is to become a big seller.

@entoman
Yes, it doesn't make much sense to me either. I mean those big, heavy, professional RF L lenses on small, consumer camera body.
But it doesn't mean that we need to go APS-C for smaller size. That's a silly non-logic and stupidity. Equivalent optics are the same size on both formats. All I want are some decent, new, compact FF F1.8/F2/F2.8 RF primes and a proper reasonably priced camera with modern features (or at least cutting down the EOS R price by $500-600). There's absolutely no need for EOS M remake.

I'd rather have a small $500 F1.8 lens on FF, than an equivalent $1000 F1.2 crop lens of the same size on APS-C.
Crop system isn't smaller.

Both cameras have the exact same sensor. So how the 6d mark II is “old tech”?

Could not care less for GPS in a camera. Just download your images and name the folder what country you visited. Although for professional travel photographers this would be useful. Perhaps for consumers who want to know the name of the small town they visited in the foreign country this may be useful. I am just not one of them. This camera is limited in features, so you have an upgrade path to a newer one in the future with more features. Take notes on a small pad when you go travelling. Always a workaround if the desire to buy this RP camera is there.

Do not forget that a GPS module needs it share of power. The RP has, on the paper at least, a mediocre battery life, why waste it on built in GPS then?

Adrian there's a huge point, but you're missing it.
the point is not remembering the name of that small town I visited 8 years ago.
is the opposite.
I remember the name of the small town and I want to type that name on Google Photo and have the pictures shown in a matter of seconds. literally. on my laptop/smartphone/tablet.
I can figure that if someone doesn't even know about such an experience can't aim for it.
and I don't want to work on folders organization and manual picture geotagging.
Rickard, GPS is drawing little juice, I don't believe is relevant compared with the energy used for shooting pictures but it's there.
I'm happy to bring at least two batteries for my camera and at the end of the day I'm ok with shooting (and GPS).

@suave yes I do. Just visit the Ricoh Imaging page if you fancy a new lens for your K1. Plenty there that will fit your camera if you dont want to play around with old lenses. Pentax is still making new lenses also, maybe you didnt know this? But they are

The way I see it is that mattz10 wants GPS built-in. It's a feature he wants. I feel every camera should have GPS built-in. It's not expensive or space-robbing to include it. Those that don't want the battery drain or just don't use the feature can simply disable it. Relying on phone apps to send GPS data to the camera sucks, and that uses phone battery and camera battery (WiFi or Bluetooth on the camera) as well.

Manufacturers just want you using their app so they can spy on you and monetize you. Screw that. I wan't GPS on the camera...

Class A - Yes, sure, you can judge exposure, WB and focus on the rear screen of a 6DMkii in live view, but that's extremely limiting.

Most stills photographers would be using (and choosing) the 6DMkii *because* it has an optical viewfinder. The guys using live view will mostly just be landscapists and videographers.

I don't personally even see these 2 cameras as being aimed at the same taget users:

The RP (not helped by the large lenses) is really targeted at novices who want a stylish, modern, compact camera for travel and snaps.

The 6DMkii is aimed really at more "serious" photographers who want FF quality on a limited budget.

Both are excellent cameras, for their respective target buyers, although neither are state-of-art in terms of specification or performance..

Stylish - surely no one mistakes any Canon body and especially the EOS R and RP as stylish? NEX 5 series stylish. Most Fuji cameras stylish. Sony A6300 in silver, stylish. Hasselbad X1D stylish. Olympus Pen, stylish. In a peculiar way, the Nikon D850 stylish.

Canon R and RP - you're kidding me? Ugly black boxes.

Uncoy - A lot of people find Canons stylish, but it's obviously a matter of personal taste. As you've given me examples of what you think are stylish (=cosmetically attractive) and ugly cameras, I'll do the same:

Fujifilm X-T3, Canon EOS-R, Leica M10 are all examples of what I'd call "stylish". Panasonic S1R, Canon 5DMkiv, Nikon D850, Sony a7Riii are examples of what I'd call "plain". Pentax and Olympus are what I'd call "unattractive". Hasselblads are what I'd call "over-the-top-ridiculous". Sigma, I'd call "ugly".

@ RubberDials: Well known argument, different product, and bad timing … :-)

That is humor level 53. Well crafted, sir ...

@entoman,
no kidding! It's just coping mechanism from another disenfranchised Canon clergyman. Everytime Canon comes up with yet another yawner you get an outpouring of 'camera doesn't matter' comments. LOL

photomedium - Well, as a happy Canon user for the last 8 years, I tried to steer away from that issue and present my argument as a generalisation! :-)

I love my Canon gear for the ergonomics and optics, but the dynamic range could be, shall we say, better! At high ISO Sony have a clear 1.5 - 2 stops advantage over Canon in DR, and in RAW noise levels.

My 5DS is virtually unusable above ISO 1600. My 5DMkiv is a lot better, but can't hold a light to a D850.

Entoman,
I respect your point of view as it stands above that of the typical canon clergyman. LOL

The only thing holding back my decision to buy an RP or 6Dii is the dynamic range. The iso advantage it there no doubt. I will hold on to my 24mp sensor in both my m6 small body and my 77D which have same sensor as 80D. This has much better dynamic range. And with fast glass I can improve iso ability. Apsc is not dead if it can perform well, and it still outsells FF anyway among consumers and prosumers and extra body for pros. Fast glass can improve low light, however dynamic range cannot be improved easily from blowing out highlights or losing detail in shadows. The new 24mm sensor from 80D, 77D and m6 is much better than older 18mp and great images to 1600 iso and even higher.

Adrian-Van - I don't think you'd find any appreciable difference in image quality between 80D, 6DMkii or RP, unless you commonly shoot at ISO 800 or above, where the FF cameras would have a noise advantage.

The 80D handles better than either the RP or the 6DMkii. It also has faster burst speed, and offers a narrower angle of view (with the same lens), which is often advantageous.

My advice, if you want to stay with Canon would be either stick with your 80D, or upgrade to a 5DMkiv, which is a superb camera in all respects.

If you only have a couple of lenses and are willing to switch systems, go for the Nikon D500, which is by far the best APS camera on the market. If you want the best image quality and don't mind Sony ergonomics, go for the a7iii.

@LO, dude, laws of physics have changed. It’s much harder to catch photons today hence you need a better camera. In the old days they would just march into the camera, nice and orderly. But today it’s like the May Day Riots, photons everywhere, smashing into things, things getting broken, and frankly the camera is just a photon policeman, desperately trying to get order.

@entoman Try some DxO PhotoLab Prime Noise reduction (set low at 12, not the 40 default) on your 5DS photos at 3200 and 6400 ISO. Like a brand new camera. I have a 5DS R and shoot 6400 ISO all the time for night soccer and the photos turn out great with PhotoLab (and not so well with anything else due to difficult chroma noise).

Photomedium - I see your back on a canon thread characteristically and generally criticising canon cameras, their users and also personally attacking anyone who challenges your viewpoint with your signature insincere LOL.
You have no apparent interest in canon and stalk other people’s posts for any opportunity to deride and poke fun at people. It’s hard to not to conclude that you are other than an unpleasant troll.

photomedium - I hardly think confirming yourself as troll qualifies as success.

I hear you. The first camera I picked up was a Canon for exactly the reasons that you mention. Which makes you wonder, why can't Nikon and Sony simplify their menus and make their cameras as user friendly as Canon. I have to say, Fuji is about the easiest camera to pick up, and one of the most fun to use. But Nikon? Sony?

KEnrique - As it happens I just happen to have a borrowed Nikon D850 here in front of me, so I've had a chance to compare it with my trusty 5DMkiv and 5DS.

It's all very odd. The first thing that struck me was that the control positions of the Nikon are more logical than on my Canons, although on the Canons they are smoother and have better "feel". I played for a while, picking up each camera in turn and operating all the controls.

At the end, despite the arguably more logical control layout, better specifications and better image quality of the Nikon, I still found the Canons much more enjoyable to hold and operate. And while the image quality is a bit lower than the Nikon, it's more than adequate for my needs (although better RAW noise control at high ISO would make a major benefit).

Hi Entoman, Yeah, if only Canon would put some Sony sensors on their top models like they do on their little GX7II... What amazing cameras they would be... I like the D850 quite a bit, but I still fight it. Canon makes so much sense. Fuji does as well (the X-T3 was so much fun to use until I saw the files and I was like, what do you mean you cannot see the faces of people a hundred yards away?!?!? - We do get a little spoiled with the 5DS... ) Don't tell anyone but I did a newborn photoshoot with the D850, litterally the second photo I took with the camera, and I was like, why is the focusing point NOT moving??? After taking a whole bunch of photos with the baby right in the middle of the frame I told the couple I needed to have a short break and ran to my room to read the manual... Why on earth does the camera have a focus point lock?????? I guess it is just the Nikon way... If they can make it more complicated, they will...

Adrian - If you're on the fence, the best thing to do is to think ahead to exactly what type of subjects you photograph, and what your future requirements might be.

Don't buy a camera that is too limited, choose one that will have features and performance that will still satisfy you in 3 or 4 years time.

Regarding the choice between the RP and the 6DMkii, both are pretty future-proof. The RP lens system looks extremely promising but for a while you'd be restricted to using EF glass on it.

So really it comes down to whether you like viewing through an EVF or whether you prefer an optical viewfinder. It's as simple as that IMHO.

Professionals can shoot commercial photographs with lesser, and order specified cameras. If you can’t shoot professional grade images with either of these cameras buying the Nikon or Sony cameras will not save you.
As for antiquated, what in the end does that mean when there is no decernable differences in the final images shot on Canon, NIkon or Sony. Looking at spec sheets and saying mine is newer, or more advanced or faster is just another version of mine is bigger for people who wear their cameras like a cod piece rather than round their neck.

@John Koerner
I like you! ;-)

@George1958. As the old saying goes, it's not the size that matters, it's how you use it :-).

I will go for the RP for the compact size, guys if you don't like Canon don't buy it, for me it's not the camera that does the job it's me no matter the brand. 40 years ago when I started there were no Is or BIS or any of this. At the end the camera it's just a tool, if you know how to use and are creative pick the one that you feel the most comfortable with,

Canon, the camera to own when it don't matter.

Canon the camera to own because trite puerile contrary opions don’t matter.

Photo medium- Canon is the camera to keep because you know how to make a quality image and do not blame your gear for poor workmanship. You also do not suffer from self doub and a profound insecurity that manifests itself in a need to put others down for their camera choice, or to maintain delusions you are a better and wiser person because you did not buy a canon . I do hope your photographic aesthetic is not as inane as your snide humour, that would be a shameful waste of what ever camera you own.

Canon, the camera for people with 'issues', clearly.

Photomedia - that’s they trouble with mixing your terms , are you really suggesting that people who use canon cameras have issues , or did you mean me?
I would suggest it’s not worth trying to score a weak point when the above is the best you can do. I might add people who poke fun or try to belittle others because of their choices are the folk with the issues. It’s in the nature of projection. I have no issue that you have other views and preferences that differ from me and I can respectfully agree to disagree with you in the event.

Canon, the camera for people that can't let it go...LOL

Photo medium - still struggling to own your own behaviour, still weakly trying to justify yourself as a ritious commentator and missing the irony of your last remark. This is, and never has been about canon cameras, it’s about you and your misplaced sense of superiority that does you no justice. So you don’t rate canon cameras, fine, but please don’t think that those you do are fair game for junior school playground jibes and taunts. You are simply under estimating a lot of people and over valuing your own ideas.

@George1958
for a while it was fun watching my quick one-liners get replied by a series of multi-paragraphs off-topic ramblings and insults. I venture to guess you have a payload of stuff left unsaid in your personal life that you are dropping on the wrong target. I suggest you spare the DPR audience and bring all this up with your health care provider. LOL

Photomedium the fact you consider your one liners fun is likely down to your blind spots in your personal awareness that you are not funny,, apparently not well informed (based on content) and have so far not contributed anything than jibes and taunts.
You really dont see that all you have done is treat every canon user as being foolish for buying canon. Given that is likely the largest group of camera users, that’s a lot of people. Now you suggest I need to give DPR a rest? Seriously? As for your other suggestion about my posts, there you go underestimating others once again.

Canon, if you just can't stop yapping. lol

Photomedium for some one with no apparent interest in canon, you are doing a lot of empty yapping

Photomedium I was always better , but not for being snide, or egocentric, but for standing up to those who have nothing better to do than snipe at others for its own sake.

You were doing so well but you ruined it all by +oning your own comments...
tzk,tzk

Photomedium for one with such poor judgement in making comment, you praise is worthless, and your critique is empty.

A yawner, just like your favorite camera company. lol

Photomedium - why not have a look at the thin dull inane weakly argued empty headed puerile humour in your posts and reflect, who is the yawner? All you have said is the same thing again and again, you don’t make any substantive points , you have no argument. All you do is personally attack others , you are just a bully, and your not good at that either. It really is time to hang up the emperors cloths.
As for my favourite camera, you are not even close.

Canon E17 for RP Batteries are $48.90 at B&H Photo. Or you can buy third party batteries on Amazon.com for "UltraPro 2-Pack batteries of LP-E17" combo with fast USB charger for as little as $23.95 plus 11.95 shipping, if you are okay with buying off brand batteries (some people won't). So $40 total for 2 extra batteries and an extra charger. We are talking about a camera aimed at semi-pros in RP (which also can be used by pros), so having third party batteries should not be an issue with many. Sure, they may not hold as much power but who cares, they also will not damage the camera. I use both Canon batteries and SmilePowo batteries (from Amazon) for a year and no issues on my Canon 77D which uses same battery as RP, and the 3rd party holds at least 80 percent charge capable to expensive Canon E17. The battery level shows up on 77D. This battery also fits the Canon m6 which I also have. Why pay more when it isn't necessary? It is just a power supply.

Currently only 35mm stm is at a comfortable size for rp and r. I’m selling r among others, for this reason, in favor of 6d ii

Mr Grapejam - Your pics are pleasant, but they are NOT exceptional.. I do not see anything in your links I could not have done with any FF Canon from 5d onwards. Many of these images seem washed out and lifeless.. I have seen thousands of backlit images with way better colour rendition than yours... You should learn how to use fill flash; you will get way better natural colour.. and while you are at it some composition (specifically body posture and background selection) amongst other things...

The point stays: I have yet to see an image transformed into exceptional status by pushing shadows an extra stop.

"fill flash gives a completely different look from natural light and one that is not exactly popular with today's youth"

Balance the light - no shadow pushing required.
'Popular with today's youth'?? Really?? haha - I would rather create better images than be popular with today's youth :-) :-)..

"And mind you, the albums that I showed you were hardly my best works ;)"

I would rather hope not :-)

This is a fantastic choice for compact use travel use. Batteries are very cheap, no issues there at all. Also good for day to day family use in out and about town. (not so much for sports use, but indoor use should be okay, especially with 35mm f1.8 lens, and the iso is still pretty decent with a kit lens option as 6400 iso looks good and bit beyond. My 77D apsc cameras takes very good 6400 iso this should be even better with RP or 6Dii sensor.

Grapejam, I really like these two. Great portraits and atmosphere.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136248422@N05/42315399725/in/album-72157695561417522/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136248422@N05/43997397782/in/album-72157699867591824/

If neither is right for you move on. NPR has freedom of the press. They can compare any cameras they want. Venting your insecurities may help you, but no one else.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1419516967/nikon-d500-versus-d750-which-one-is-right-for-you

It's simply a new format we're experimenting with, and you can expect to see more in the future.

PDN magazine published a test of the M50 giving it a high rating in four areas including for noise.

Canon will not let the M die, because it fits into its niche for segment marketing: It's a smaller, cheaper mirrorless.