Iain McKell photographs 'The New Gypsies'

No !! unfortunately no-one knows anything about this kid's parents, it is rumored tho that the parents might be a couple from Bulgaria but they are still searching, they did sent thought D.N.A sample from the kid to EUROPOL if that could be in any help for other lost children

According to the latest news, the girl may have been kidnapped from Swedish parents while they were in Greece. There's a tremendous uproar in Scandinavia right now, particularly because local gypsies also have been known for kidnapping small children in Sweden / Finland too for hundreds of years. And now these poor Swedish parents...

In this case the kid is found it's the parents that are missing, anyhow gypsies live on a margin and that is a problem when you live next to them, don't like them never did. What is very interesting tho is that they are all connected somehow (Swedish or Finnish gypsies might be related in a way with those that kidnaped little Maria)

"Swedish or Finnish gypsies might be related in a way with those that kidnaped little Maria"

You mean romani crime in Finland? Well, I won't be politically correct: it is an issue. The percentage of Finnish romani people in Finnish prisons are more than twenty (20) times more than those of (ethnic) Finns pro person. See for example, among other things, the report published by the Finnish police at http://www.optula.om.fi/uploads/3jiava_1.pdf ("Tuoreimpien, vuotta 2005 koskevien syyllisten etnistä taustaa koskevien tietojen mukaan valtaväestö muodostaa syyllisistä 50 %, romanit 18 % ja somalit 12 %.") and at http://www.rikosseuraamus.fi/uploads/9tydvr.pdf ("Tarkastelupäivänä 22.7.2004 vankilan kirjoilla oli 321 vankia, joista romaneja oli 22."), which also reports on this.

And it can't even be stated they're poor and are forced to do illegal things to feed themselves. They do get a lot of benefits on grounds of their ethnic roots (race) - for example, 700 euros / year to purchase their traditional folk costumes. Also, in general, they are allowed to get life-long pension at the age of 18 – read: they don't need to go to work. Needless to say, ethnic (non-Romani) Finns must work until 65 and don't get any extra money. There is negative discrimination in Finland – towards ethnic Finns...

By "The percentage of Finnish romani people in Finnish prisons are more than twenty (20) times more than those of (ethnic) Finns pro person.", I meant a randomly selected Romani Finn is with 20 times more probability has already been in prison than a non-Romani Finn. Not "only" with 20% more probability.

Gypsies project themselves as victims, a big number of them are related with illegal activity, like Finland Greece gave them houses and land to stop sub-living in tents and wagons but some of them sold their houses (that got by spending NOT EVEN ONE SENTS ) to get money and move to other places (maybe Finland, who knows !!!!)
Trafficking carpets, drugs and kids is a well paid way of living.
More Kids for Gypsies mean extra bonus money from government for every kid and every kid is an extra begging hand bringing even more money in the house.

Menneisyys & Petrogel - had you ever considered that people turn to a life of crime because theyand their entire culture is subject to racism in every aspect of their life, not that the racism exists because they are criminals? Just a thought for you - I wonder how much respect you would have for a law which disadvantages you merely because of your skin colour, for people who hate you for no other reason than your choice of what shelters you from the elements.

@Shengji: are you serious? What law are you talking about?

Red Valley - Are you claiming that for the vast majority of human history, law has not been racist? Once you've marginalized a group, it takes many generations of equality to change that, as admirably demonstrated right here in this thread. Someone claimed that gypsies were not people for gods sake. Actually we don't know just how long it takes on a global scale yet because of all the marginalised groups in the world (women, gay people, the handicapped, black people in Caucasian lands, people not of the state religion, people not of the perceived state religion etc etc etc) not one single one has yet received equality in society. So no, we don't get to pat ourselves on the back just because the law changed some time ago - we still need to make an effort in our society to remove that historic prejudice. If you can, under the veil of anonymity that the internet provides judge all gypsies based on a BBC documentary about one single gypsy family, you are a racist and you are the problem.

Shengji Obviously you don't know a thing of what you're talking about, you've mixed up gays handicapped people, black, yellow and white with gypsies, just to show ... sorry to pretend how caring and progressive and open minded you are towards minorities. So my best wishes to involve with them, get related with them and then we'll talk over again !!!!

Petrogel - what do you know about me exactly? Do you know if I am any of the minorities I have mentioned? What exactly is wrong with recognising that discriminatory treatment of people due to their race, gender or sexual orientation et al is a bad thing?

You seem to be saying that I am really as big a racist as you yet I am pretending to not be. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the opinions I have stated here are fake?

No, of course you don't, you don't even know my nationality. Why don't you stick to using the English language you understand, your statement "So my best wishes to involve with them, get related with them and then we'll talk over again !!!!" literally makes no sense. Use the English language properly or don't bother.

Now, lets get real. You are a racist. You are an embarrassment to the human race. You need some good education because obviously the education you have received has failed you. That people like you still exist is shameful post 1949.

Shenji
I don't know your nationality i know nothing about you and not willing to, as i do not care if you are a gay, Hermaphrodite, Handicapped or a gypsy
You claim that i'm calling you a racist, NO Shengji i'm calling you a hypocrite, talking about something you know nothing about, confusing minorities with legitimacy

"Now let's get real" Shengji, You !! The Epitome of the - one man human rights institution-
Humans race embarrassment is good as long as it differentiates me form you, my hypocrite commenter.

"had you ever considered that people turn to a life of crime..."

So, you're stating the vast majority of Finns, Spaniards, Italians, the French etc. are racist because they all hate Romani people – and this is why Romani people have to turn to crime, in their desperation. (I'm listing these Western countries because the Romani crime is about twenty times bigger in each of them than that of the people of non-Romani origins. I don't even list Eastern countries with even higher Romani population – we all do know they all have huge problems with Romani people there. Surely because of anti-Romani racism. Dead sure. Oh yes.)

Who's the racist? I think it's you. You're stating _all_ those nations, _all_ those people are racist, Nazi and hate everything Romani because they need to hate. Dozens of millions of West-European people. All of them. Even the French, who really can't be accused of sympathy towards Nazis during WWII. You should probably look into the mirror? It's YOU that are racist.

Menneisyys : No no, not all those people, just the literal people I have called racist here - which is 2 people, both of which said racist things. You'll notice I carefully explained why I was calling them racist.

I am something-ist, I don't know the word but yes I do discriminate against those who spread hatred. I'm proud of it. I would lock them in a camp and give them the finest, most progressive education until they understand that every homo homo sapian on this earth is a person and deserves to be treated equally. I'm proud of this. Do you think Petrogel would put his real name to his comments? Do you think Redvalley or Hawaiivolcano would tell their mothers their vile beliefs?

Petrogel: You wrote "...i know nothing about you..." [sic] yet you earlier wrote " ...show ... sorry to pretend how..." So please tell me once again why you felt so comfortable accusing me of only pretending from a position of ignorance of my intentions.

In fact Petrogel, lets really get into this, now you have stated that you know nothing about me yet, aside from the pretend thing, you have also stated that I am "talking about something [I] know nothing about". Again, how would you know. You know nothing about me.

You call me a hypocrite, now what have I done that is hypocritical? Have I discriminated against gypsies myself? Please do tell me where I did this. Your final statement in the paragraph is most confusing. "confusing minorities with legitimacy". Apart from another demonstration of your terrible English, could you please tell me what you wanted to get across here, because I read this statement as you claiming that just because someone is a minority, they have no legitimacy - though I am probably wrong in that interpretation which is why it's important to not mangle your English.

That minorities and legitimacy "is most confusing to you" is obvious.
If you'll practice your English more often then maybe one day you'll get the "right interpretation"

There is no subjectivity here - English has rules, known as grammar, and you broke them. This means your sentence objectively made no sense. There is nothing to understand, you can't answer any of my questions, I'm done with you. Continue white knighting for racists, if that makes you happy, I'll not be checking this thread any more. You're inability to actually answer my questions tells me all I need to know - that you are happy to make statements in ignorance. Funny how when ever we are talking about racism, we always find ignorance.

oh no please !!! mrs Hypocrisy
i couldn't care less !!!
You are done with me ? Why you were here the first place ?

@Shenji: "No no, not all those people, just the literal people I have called racist here - which is 2 people, both of which said racist things. You'll notice I carefully explained why I was calling them racist."

This wasn't a direct answer to my question. You had previously stated the following: "had you ever considered that people turn to a life of crime because theyand their entire culture is subject to racism in every aspect of their life, not that the racism exists because they are criminals?" and "Are you claiming that for the vast majority of human history, law has not been racist? Once you've marginalized a group, it takes many generations of equality to change that"

(continued below)

(cont'd from above)

All the above do mean Romani people are (to put it mildly) over-represented in crime statistics because and ONLY because they have always been (and are now too) surrounded by racists who hate them. You've called 70-80% of Europeans racist haters, who hate people only because of their skin color and without any further reason.

A remark on the 70%: yes, it's true they (ethnical Romani people – not to be mistaken for New Age travelleres, that is, the ones the above DPReview article is about) are hated almost everywhere in Europe. Even in France, which, as I've pointed out above, really doesn't have a Nazi history. There, in a recent survey (27/Sep/2013, BVA / Le Parisien), 93% of the French responders stated Romani people in France couldn't integrate into society and a whopping 77% of them wanted Romanian and Bulgarian Romani people to be expelled from France. Pretty staggering numbers, aren't they? And in other countries these figures are even higher.

(cont'd)

(cont'd from above)

Interestingly, people that come from India to work here aren't hated at all because of their skin color – pretty interesting, isn't it? What can be the reason for that? Ask an arbitrary Frenchmen what he thinks of Indian people. I guarantee he won't hate them. Romani people? Well, the figures have been presented above...

How come Indians aren't hated at all, while Romani people, who have exactly the same skin color, are? Don't Europeans just hate some people exclusively on the grounds of their skin color, after all - as opposed to what you've initially stated?

"Where's my camera, this is going in my gallery of really stupid things people say."

This wasn't an answer. I asked you to provide me an answer.

1, you stated Romani people commit crime because they're surrounded by haters and that the majority of Europeans dislike Romani people only because of their skin color. That is, you stated the exact opposite of “Romani people are hated throughout Europe because they commit far too much crime and refuse to take part in education / work life.”

2, when asked to do so, you couldn't defend your point. I asked you several times to do it. For some help, I even asked you to explain why Europeans don't hate immigrants of Indian origin – exactly the same origin where Romani people are originally from and with exactly the same skin color. After all, it was you who stated Romani people are hated in Europe because of their skin color.

"Menneisyys: Oh my god, you just legitimately tried to do a "Europe isn't racist but they all hate Romani Gypsies""

I in no way stated _all_ Europeans hate Romani people. I've even shown you some exact (French) figures showing "only" 77...93% of the French hate / dislike Gypsies. Please try to remain objective. And answer my questions instead of namecalling.

Oh Shengji sengji sengji you can't be that stupid, of course you 're not, you just playing stupid (i really hope you can understand that).
If racism is to oppose unlawfulness, then you 're gonna find a lot of racist in this thread. ( is your English good enough to understand this ?).
Instead of interpreting what is written the way it is convenient for you and your arguments, it would be better to read our comments the way they are written, but then you won't be able to shout out loud how liberal or broadminded person, you want us to believe you are, and there is why i call you a hypocrite.
Me and Menneisyys we were talking about a particular incident of a child abduction, when you pop up, no-one invited you here you've just imposed yourself in, so please stop the hypocrisy.

I'm sure you Understood everything that was written in this thread even when you were pretending you weren't, Hypocrite.

When you'll find your camera capture this one too

@IchWill:

"Racism is way more nuanced than skin colour my friend."

I know. It was Shengji that stated Romani people are hated solely because of their skin color. This is why I asked him (her?) to explain why recent immigrants of Indian origin don't complain about racism in Europe – as opposed to Romani people, who do.

"Also are you really denying that Europe has been historically racist, really? Need I mention the crusades, the ethnic cleansing that was practised up until last century."

Show me any country in the world where there weren't ethnic cleansings before the last century. Only one. Let's start with the U.S. Or Australia. What happened to the original inhabitants there?

"You don't need to admit to being a nazi to be a racist do you."

OK, you've stated we Europeans are racists, bigots and everything. Let's take a look at other continents, then.

Canada has recently expelled hundreds of Romani refugees from the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary – and stopped visa-free entry for the former state, only to stop Romani refugees to enter Canada. Why doesn't Canada want the Romani people either? After all, each year hundreds of thousands of immigrants enter Canada to work there and Canada certainly welcomes everybody that wants to work. Are Canadians racist too by not wanting Romani people to enter? Or, is there a much more evident explanation for their expelling Romani refugees?

"The answer to your question is that Indians are subject to racial abuse every day in my experience. See the slang word Packi for reference and don't imagine that your average Brit who uses the term actually knows how to tell the difference between an Indian and Pakistani. "

Pakistanians are not Indians. They're two entirely different countries with entirely different culture, religion etc. You certainly haven't ever been to, say, Finland. In Finland, there are TONS of Indian immigrants; mostly engineers. I've NEVER heard any of them complaining about racism. I haven't EVER read ANY article stating "an Indian immigrant was attacked by racists". Local Romani people? Heck, they are generally disliked. Not exactly without reason.

"Oh, and "your experience" pales in comparison to my experience, given that I am an Indian Immigrant. Perhaps you need to read some more. Including what I wrote."

Show me ONE article or ONE complaint from the Finnish press / Indians living in Finland of Finns' abusing / hating them. I'm absolutely sure you won't be able to do so. Indian immigrants in Finland are highly regarded as they're doing valuable work and contribute to the state a lot.

In this regard, Indians and local (Finnish) Romani people are handled by the Finnish majority in exactly the opposite way in Finland. As opposed to what you've originally stated. You did state Europe is full of racists, who only hate on grounds of their subject's skin color, and this is the only reason for Romani people's at least an order of magnitude higher crime. This is in no way true - at least not in Finland. (I'm not sure about the UK as I'm not living there. I know there are a lot of Pakistanis in there.)

"Never read any reports of racism against Indian immigrants, well now you have. I was an Indian immigrant and I was subject to racist abuse."

Again: I "only" know the situation in Finland. I don't have much info on the UK.

Indians, while they do have dark(er) skin color, have NEVER been attacked, abused in Finland - as opposed to local Romani people (of the same skin color), who are hated as much as in other European countries. Everybody knows they (Indians) are valuable workforce working diligently.

Please post the links. I've found two links by searching for the exact string you provided:

http://www.migranttales.net/its-hard-for-some-to-see-racism-when-you-are-a-white-finn/

http://www.migranttales.net/is-there-racism-in-finland/

Let me cite something from the second page:

"I am an Indian and did not encounter much racism in Finland.I was actually treated with a lot of respect wherever I went.Dunno why though.I am darker than the average Indian.Just got the right group of people I suppose."

And another citation from the first one:

"I would like enrique to explain unemployment statistics and why finns dont discriminate etiopians, khameronians, kenyans and nigerians. Also that why racism doesnt touch indians and chinese. There groups with americans and english do have better employment status than estonians. Couldnt find stats, with brief search, with finns included and cba to make one but i remember kenyans had best, way over finns."

The key sentence there is "Also that why racism doesnt touch indians and chinese". Exactly what I stated - Finns do NOT hate Indians (and the Chinese).

"Hey, you asked me to find one, I found one within 5 minutes."

Again, feel free to post the link. As I've stated above, Google only provided me with two links when I googled for "racism against indians in finland" (exact string). On both pages several Indians did state they have been highly regarded by Finns.

Anotehr citation from http://www.migranttales.net/is-there-racism-in-finland/ :

" As there are people in Finland who discriminate because of a person’s skin color, there are many others who think differently."

That is, "racists" (who would handle Indians and Romani people in exactly the same way) are in minority in Finland. The word "many" also emphasizes this.

We're speaking of very rare cases here. 99% of Finns aren't racists - that is, ones that hate on grounds of skin color only, and not behavior. Hating / disliking Romani people because of their crime and way of life is an entirely different thing and doesn't have to do anything with (simple) racism. Then, 80% of Europe's inhabitants could easily be labeled "racists". And also the Canadian government, actually.

Again, racism is equally hating everybody of the same skin color - according to you as well, who stated it's because of their skin color that Romani people are hated in most European countries.

"No, it's the very definition of racism - you do not judge an individual on their actions but on their race - racism."

If "race" is connected to skin color and origins, then, you're wrong. Again, 99% of Finns do NOT hate Indians. I've just cited some posts posted by ethnic Indians stating the same.

Romani people belong to exactly the same race as Indians. Are they hated in FInland (as well as everywhere else)? Yes. Why? Because of their race? Nope, not in the least, as I've just pointed out. Why then? Yes, it's their way of life and crime that makes the majority of Europeans hate them.

This, again, is NOT racism. People of exactly the same origins (Indian immigrants) are NOT hated. At least not in Finland.

"Rominis are a distinct cultural group completely separate to Indians, come on - you just told me that Pakistani's were separate to Indians because the English drew a line on a map! Now you insist they are the same despite living on dofferent continents for many generations leading completely different lifestyles and speaking different languages."

RACIALLY, they're the same. They're from India - as are current Indian immigrants. CULTURALLY, sure they're vastly different.

It's the Romani CULTURE (= way of life) that Europeans hate, not the RACE. If the current Indian immigrants had the same culture as ROmani people, they'd be as hated as Romani people. Because of their culture, crime, unwillingness to go to school / work etc. They (Indians) aren't hated - because Europeans don't generally hate anyone based on their race / origins, only their culture / way of life / crime. I hope I've explained the vast difference.

*Sigh*

You still don't seem to understand.

1, "haters" (the majority of Europeans) aren't hating Romani people because of their skin color, as opposed to what you've stated below.

2, they hate Romani people because of their way of life and very high crime percentage. Police statistics don't lie. If needed, I can Google a lot more for you.

3, they don't hate people of Romani origin / race NOT leading the traditional life of Romani people, just like they don't hate people of Indian origins - as I've also proved with citations proving Indians are highly regarded in Finland (unlike Romani people belonging to the same race and having the same skin color).

All in all, Europeans aren't dumb racists, no matter what you state. It's a certain way of life they hate and not a race.

"Wel, then there is no racism because if you go far enough back, we're all related to the 100 strong tribe which left Africa. This is why I called you stupid."

Absolutely wrong analogy. The descendants of those tribes are of widldly different skin colors. "Dumb racists" couldn't hate all of them because of their entirely _different_ skin color.

Romani people and Indians, on the other hand, have the _same_ skin color. The exact reason you've stated to be hated in Europe. Do Europeans, in general, hate Indians as much as Romani people? Hell, no!

That is, your initial assumption ("Romani people are hated because they have dark skin color") is absolutely false.

Even more ridiculous was your other, initial statement "Romani people (need to) commit crime out of pure despair because they've always been hated".

No matter what you state NOW, the statement

"perhaps the treatment of their race over hundreds of years is responsible for their current attitudes to the law."

certainly means you "explain" the very high crime rate of the Romani people by other people's having "mistreating" and "hating" them for ages.

Don't you feel it's a ridiculous "explanation"? It's like telling for example Finns:

"You're free to kill all Russians / Swedes because, back in time, they have attacked / enslaved you"

or telling Indians

"You're free to kill / misuse the English because they have enslaved you some hundreds of years ago".

Unfortunately, the casual relationship is exactly the opposite in reality. Romani people are generally hated in Europe BECAUSE they commit a lot of crime (kidnapping, drug selling / distributing etc.) and, in general, are unwilling to attend schools / go to work. And definitely not the other way around.

"Oh, and please don't misquote me, I didn't say they needed to commit crime because of hardship, that's your make believe of what I said."

I did quote you in my previous comment as well:

"perhaps the treatment of their race over hundreds of years is responsible for their current attitudes to the law."

It does say what I've stated all the time.

You put the word "people" in quotation marks. Now you are not quoting anyone, so what you are doing is using to quotation marks to show that you are not using the correct word, but we all know what you mean.

To simplify, you have just stated that gypsies are not people. This is obviously absurd and on the level of the people who thought Africans were not human. You have just shown the world exactly what type of person you are, and I'll be honest, the sooner your brand of intolerance is educated out of society, the better and more wonderful a place the world will become.

You prefaced this with the tinfoil hat suggestion that gypsies are trying to "destroy Italy". Really, destroy is the word you wanted there was it? Do go on with this "theory" (and by theory I mean dementia) of yours, how and why are they trying to destroy the nation of Italy?

Shengji, if you would like to educate yourself, watch the "Gypsy Child Thieves" BBC documentary on youtube. I have lived in Romania for almost 40 years and I am familiar with their lifestyle and their culture.

I've seen it - thing is, I don't judge a whole culture on a sensationalist piece of media - there are unpleasant people from all walks of live, even yours!

Gypsies the sub-culture and sub-living of unlawfulness !!!!!
Those people on the photos have nothing to do with gypsies are more neohippies than gypsies

Less accurate ??
Then don't refer to my "definitions" in the future.

By the way : "The hippie (or hippy) subculture was originally a youth movement that arose in the United States during the mid-1960s and spread to other countries around the world." (wikipedia).

Yanko, if your recent pictures of Istanbul are anything to go by, I think you could learn a great deal from looking at the work of published photographers.

Can we please have a 'dislike' button? Please?

@peter please don't be jealous looking at your site you might have a chance to get it right one day.

The article doesn't say they are "original" gypsies, it says they are 'the new gypsies'.

Even if it's right that "new gypsies" aren't "gypsies", gypsies don't really do themselves a favor if they think they're better than others because of where they came from, which is just the same old stupid concept of racism others have been using against them for ages.

It's 100s of years ago, not 'thousands.' And Irish "gypsies" are really known as "Travelers." While it was once a fact that "gypsy" was a term of approbation, it now, in English, also means to live a life not tied to any particular chunk of real estate. I'm pretty sure that the author used that sense of the word.

They're articles about photography.

PS - anyone who has seen the amount of new camera/lens previews, reviews, and news coverage that we've posted in the past couple of weeks and STILL complains about a couple of pictures stories at the weekend, might have some perspective issues.

Barnaby, photography as an art form is sadly wasted on this website..

@ Peter - we're getting there!

I like the articles about how others are using the art of photography. Endless conversations about pixels sensors, noise, etc. distract from the main reason anyone should even be bothering with any of this, ie. making images.

It baffles me why you read such hateful and angry posts on this site. Seems photography would be something that brought most joy. Instead, it seems some use it as an excuse to stew in their own disenchantment I suppose.

Seriously, when you look at the posts in general on this site, the vast majority and angry and hateful. Why do you suppose that is?

Well spoken, skiphunt13. The posts are angry and hateful because people are able to hide behind anonymity and express the alienation they feel - that were they to express same as known persons to their co-workers or spouses they would be unemployed, divorced or both. Anonymity seems to allow people to display their dark sides without a conscience.

I think you do a great job Barney, a good mix of photo styles to make us think and re-evaluate our own work and why we even bother.

And you do the best reviews of the gear we'll need to make our visions come true (or to take pics of the dog playing in the garden as in my case)

you know what's sad mcshan?

Yup, in today's news there is a story about a young girl who was rescued from a Greek Roma camp - solely because she had pale skin and blond hair. Because of that description, it was presumed that she was a "non-gypsy" who was kidnapped.

An Irish gypsy? Is that not just a drunk irishman? There are only the original gypsy. You can't be white and say "im a native american" just because 1% of your blood is.

I ate Peking duck a few hours ago, could've been him.