Poll: What concerns you most about Adobe&#39;s move to subscriptions?

I thought Adobe updater was included in CS 6 to load the latest version. How can CC be faster?

The apps are yours till you change platform. Also they stay yours for years to come without any extra cost.

May 9, 2013permalink

rdc13

I think Adobe will see a DRASTIC cut in biz 'subscriptions', which will force them to either go back to 'product' instead of 'service' or, more likely, they will split into 'consumer=product' and 'biz=service'.

May 9, 2013permalink

Thomas Kachadurian

You buy apps on the app store, then they are yours. You don't ever repay for them and can redownload them for free. It's not even close to the same thing.

May 9, 2013permalink

MrArt
What is a DVD?

May 9, 2013permalink

MrArt

If you read the line again, I said the App Store is SIMILAR. Definitely not the SAME. The thing the App Store has going for it is exactly what 2 of you said. The apps are yours and they stay with you. You decide when and what to update. The points I'm trying to make here is that Adobe has some learning to do. And the future of software is the way Apple and Adobe are approaching it—whether they are doing it right or wrong.

May 9, 2013permalink

E_Nielsen

I recently tried to buy maintenance for many copies of PhotoShop in my company (actually, Creative Suite, which includes PS), but was told that they are discontinuing that option in favor of the cloud service. That will not work for us, since we use PhotoShop for mission-critical work and cannot accept forced upgrades at Adobe's discretion without allowing us to fully test and plan the upgrades first.

Like many other software companies, Adobe has dropped features and changed interfaces with their various releases, which can throw us into a tailspin at the worst possible moments. Acrobat X was a prime example of this, where the updated interface broke an important feature that we used daily. If we were using a cloud version of Acrobat, how could we revert to a more appropriave release for our needs?

We will probably end up keeping our version of PhotoShop until we find a viable non-cloud alternative.

May 9, 2013*permalink

Robert98

Forced upgrades? Intrigued by this - I use CC and for several months I skipped upgrades without any problem. When I was in the mood to upgrade, I was able to do so, again without any problems. No forced upgrades yet.

May 9, 2013permalink

Josh152

according to adobe's FAQ they are not going to force you to upgrade.

May 9, 2013permalink

E_Nielsen

We had assumed that it was the same as other cloud software, where the SW company company manages the version that you access and rolls out updates when it pleases. If that is not the case, I stand corrected. 'Wish Adobe did a better job of explaining that on their Web site, as we couldn't find any details about how upgrades are handled when we looked into it earlier.

May 9, 2013permalink

Robert98

@Rage Joe
No, I pay for the selection of Adobe software that I want/need to use. Eventually I always install the updates, but to my own timescale. Some of the updates are useful (hard to get worked up about bug fixes and stability improvements), some I can ignore completely. But at no point am I forced to upgrade. Which is what I posted, in an effort to reduce some of the noise in this classic "tiny corner of the Internet echo chamber". I've no problems with people complaining about CC, so let's avoid the oh-so-witty ad hominems, okay?

May 10, 2013permalink

brudy

The problem is being forced to continuously upgrade forever. I'm still using CS5 with no problems. I'll be upgraded to CS6, but to be honest I don't really "need" a lot of the new features. Instead of keeping the older version for a few years before upgrading, it will be a constant process. Ugh.

May 9, 2013permalink

Upgrading is optional once on CC. Read the specs.

May 9, 2013permalink

bills_pix

Stock down almost 4% today at 1:30pm EST.

May 9, 2013permalink

BrianCanuck

"Adobe's announcement of a definitive move to the Cloud is proving to be very controversial, and somewhat misunderstood" - quote from one of my favorite websites.
I feel like a child in classroom being talked down to by the people that I respected, bought their Adobe based instructional materials, and attended their programs over the last 11 years. They are on the inside of Adobe.... maybe the window is a little fogged to the outside world.
I do not see any misunderstanding - the message is very clear.

May 9, 2013permalink

QSMcDraw

A child? Ha. More like the proletariat in a crushingly tyrannical authoritarian society, being fed the latest propaganda about war is peace, freedom is slavery, etc, etc. Thanks, Mr. Orwell!

May 9, 2013permalink

johnvr1

Spot on. These guys who always stated how independent they are, turn out to be focused on the big shots in the marketplace, instead of on the ones who they supposedly write for. And they don't even realize it. It's unbelievable. They're behaving like the photo magazines used to.

May 9, 2013permalink

piratejabez

I don't really get it... Doing the math, the subscription is cheaper than buying the software license outright, especially for what you get. It takes a couple years at least of monthly subscription to reach the traditional price, which is about the time many users may want to upgrade anyway. Plus you get access to every piece of Adobe software available, so you can play with apps you may not have had access to before. And if you only need one app like Photoshop or Lightroom, the price is even more affordable. Yes, I do worry about future price increases, but for now I think there's way to much fuss.

May 9, 2013permalink

Tim Dolan

If you are even a semi-professional then you care about annual costs not upfront costs as much, because you will be using that item for years, not months and over an 18 month period the subscription is far higher then what it used to be to buy outright.

Starting out you may only care about entry costs, but once you get going, entry costs are a minor concern at most.

And photography like most artistic endeavours tends to be a cyclical business model, not a steady state business model. Subscriptions are not conducive to a cyclical business model and it shows that Adobe executives are clueless about their customer's business models.

May 9, 2013permalink

QSMcDraw

Only cheaper if you make the mistake of using the promotional introductory price as the true, ongoing cost. Like cable companies or others that give a teaser rate, then kick in the 2x regular rate.

With my own copy on my machine, I can keep or drop internet service, I can delay upgrades a year, I can stop using the product for months while not paying...

May 9, 2013permalink

Matt Random

It is affordable for people who don't have an existing license. The pricing isn't as attractive for someone who has faithfully updated.

The single program price doesn't work for Lr IMO. At $20 per month that is $240 a year which is much more than I currently pay. I've been using Lr since the initial beta and have upgraded to each new version when released.

May 9, 2013permalink

Pete Gould

The problem is that in the old model, you only had to upgrade (and pay for it) if you wanted to. That meant Adobe had to constantly innovate in order to get your money. Otherwise you could just continue to use whatever version you were using when that particular upgrade came out.

Now they don't have to innovate nearly as much - all they have to do is collect the rents. You keep paying whether they give you cool new stuff or not. They could basically HALT development and you would have to pay year after year.

And when a company springs up that looks like it might take Adobe's business away - it BUYS that company.

This is NOTHING but bad. Bad for the individual and small business in the short term, and bad for EVERYONE in the long term since it largely removes the incentive to innovate.

May 9, 2013permalink

If you are buying new, the break-even point for a single program like Photoshop is 5.6 years vs. the old model (this assumes you purchase three upgrades under the old model). After that, you're paying more.

Most of the people who are upset are current owners of Photoshop. I've owned Photoshop for over a decade, and have paid for four upgrades over that time frame.

The CC model for me is, right away, an 80% price hike over the old upgrade model, and for that extra 80%, I don't even get to keep my upgrades if I ever stop paying. EVER.

May 9, 2013permalink

nonuniform

You are incorrect for the majority of Photoshop users that already own the software.

As of now, I pay $199 every 18months.

Adobe is offering a deal if I switch to the cloud, 6 months ahead of the normal upgrade cycle, for $120 for the next twelve months.

Then, it's back to the normal price of $240 every 12 months.

So, as you can see, Adobe has raised it's prices to existing customers by 55%!!!!! How many companies get away with that? Monopolies.

So, basically, the only way to fight this is through the antitrust laws.

Up next - you go through an economic downturn, again, and have a bad month. Your Photoshop access? Denied for non-payment. Thanks Adobe, you're a real peach.

May 9, 2013permalink

bmcdon

You are incorrect for the majority of Photoshop users that already own the software.

As of now, I pay $199 every 18months.

Adobe is offering a deal if I switch to the cloud, 6 months ahead of the normal upgrade cycle, for $120 for the next twelve months.

Then, it's back to the normal price of $240 every 12 months.

So, as you can see, Adobe has raised it's prices to existing customers by 55%!!!!! How many companies get away with that? Monopolies.

So, basically, the only way to fight this is through the antitrust laws.

Up next - you go through an economic downturn, again, and have a bad month. Your Photoshop access? Denied for non-payment. Thanks Adobe, you're a real peach."

Exactly. Seems like a lot of people have been having problems doing math lately. The reality is from $11 ish to $20 a month. These are the same people who sign up for all sorts of stuff at the into price thinking they're getting something just to find out in a few months they are in for it. Sad.

May 9, 2013permalink

Thomas Kachadurian

One is required, the other is forced. I update to the next version when I have an off season month to learn it. not when adobe announces it. IF I have a bad year I struggle along with the old software. It's my choice not theirs.

Are you an Adobe employee?

May 9, 2013permalink

piratejabez

Thanks, everyone, for your insight!

May 9, 2013permalink

mapgraphs

Never underestimate the ability of a software or hardware company marketing VP to propose something idiotic and upper management to agree.

A subscription model is mass market. Businesses prefer leases and seat fees. The prospect of continuous enterprise-wide upgrades at the whim of some marketing genius probably scares the c**p out of the average IT department.

This is mass market. If it works, if the revenue stream is sufficient, all the rest of Adobe's products could go the same route (IMHO).

May 9, 2013permalink

fwandy

Adobe have really shot themselves in the foot with this decision. Their loss I will go elsewhere. Perhaps when everyone boycotts them they will wake up to reality. Adobe count yourself now added my list of boycott companies along with Microsoft :)

May 9, 2013permalink

Mr Fartleberry

My biggest fear is they will pull this crp with Lightroom next. And I have a lot invested in my database to simply walk away from it like I can with Photoshop.

May 9, 2013permalink

intensity studios

At least with Lightroom, there are other options that are VERY good, i.e. Capture One, Aperture and some others.

With Photoshop we're kinda stuck.. There are a few decent options but nothing really solid that we can safely jump over to.

May 9, 2013permalink

dennis mol

I do not like subscription programs. This is a naked grab for user's pocket books. It will double the cost of staying current. I prepay minutes for my cell. I pay my credit card off monthly. I only buy a car with cash. I am now looking at dropping my Direct TV satellite and going with web tv.
No way am I signing up for Cloud.
I don’t like Lightroom so I don’t see this as an option.
My First copy of PS was CS1. I have upgraded 3 times to the current CS6.
I will be looking for alternatives.

May 9, 2013permalink

HubertChen

* Adobe has alienated the Enthusiasts
* It is clear that Adobe considers loosing the Enthusiasts as acceptable loss

Has anybody at Adobe ever thought about that a Professional ( which they still care about ) have been an Enthusiast prior of being a Professional ? I think they might just have killed the future generation of Adobe customers. At least for Photography, and that is including Video nowadays.

May 9, 2013permalink

Lea5

Easy! Final Cut Pro X insted of Premiere and NUKE/NUKEX instead of After Effects

May 9, 2013permalink

Josh152

Exactly! Enthusiast that would have started on Adobe products and continued using them as their pro career started are now going to start and learn on competitors products. In a 5 years or so this could really start to back fire on Adobe. Or else they will just use pirated copies of adobe's products instead since once a program is cracked by the real pirates its incredibly easy for the end user to use it. Many pros started out having to learn as teen on cracked copes of the CS and then paid for a license when they could afford it. How many will continue to buy instead of just keeping right on using the cracked copies when they transition to pro after adobe has given the enthusiast community a big F-YOU while at the same time making the product considerably more expensive? Not many would be my guess.

May 9, 2013permalink

AngryCorgi

This reminds me of when I bought my first condo. At the time, the condo fees were $325/month, which was high for the area, but I got a great deal on the unit. I thought, well, I'm ok with the combo of my mortgage and condo fee. I said, "hey, they are the highest around, I'm sure they take great care of the facility for that and its unlikely to go up too much". Fast forward 6 years. The condo fee has balloned to $555/month AND I had to pay a "special fee" of $1085 to upgrade the elevators that were not part of the condo fee! But I'm married to the condo fee with my ownership, nothing I can do. I'm stuck. So I sold the place right before the housing market took a nose dive.

This is how I see this "subscription" arrangement. You always have to pay and there is no incentive to provide an improving product. If they raise the price, you still have to pay. All your work is saved in PSD files!

I promised myself I'd never again own a condo and the same goes for Adobe's sub scheme.

May 9, 2013permalink

QSMcDraw

Wow, have you nailed one of the key dangers for consumers. Excellent!

May 9, 2013permalink

You're being a little unfair. You get to live in your condo, or sell it and you might even sell it for more than you paid for it.

May 9, 2013*permalink

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/adobe-ceo-says-creative-cloud-better-for-customers-0Bfb79OISFGotOcGNxRuQg.html

Agree with Abrasive,
ADBE's deal is even worse as you have nothing to show after your 10 years. You own nothing...

May 9, 2013permalink

AngryCorgi

Fair enough, AbrasiveReducer...I agree, the condo arrangement is a dream compared to this nonsense.

May 9, 2013permalink

pawass

Adobe - I've been a loyal customer for many many years but now I will support ANYONE who comes out with a viable alternative to Photoshop even if it will be a hassle. Screw your new money-making agenda. I will be paying at least twice as much for photoshop with an ongoing subscription. Don't you realize that people have a way of working and getting things done efficiently? And then you decide to just change the whole thing? People make a living using your software the way they have for a while and don't want to be forced to go along with every one of your whims. I will Never support this!

May 9, 2013permalink

Horshack

Here's a Bloomberg interview with the Adobe CEO, with his usual fabricated "customers prefer cloud" nonsense.

Btw, anytime you hear a CEO use the word "assets" to describe customer property, check your back pocket to make sure your wallet is still there.

May 9, 2013*permalink

"Assets", "paradigm", "associates" (as in Walmart), "learning curve" (as in difficult/complex), these words and phrases are the Canary in the coal mine. They should immediately cause your BS alarm to go off. There are many others, of course.

May 9, 2013permalink

leszeff

Way to expensive compare to upgrade cost. Time to test other same type of software. Adobe is very greedy.

May 9, 2013permalink

gordon lafleur

This is complete horse-pucky

May 9, 2013permalink

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/08/Adobe-photoshop-cc

Very eloquent.

May 9, 2013permalink

Dvlee

In the above poll , there should have been an "all of the above" option because all those things are of concern... except "I thnk it might work fine."

I'm actually using the subscription option now because when factoring in the initial cost of CS6 plus upgrades down the road, and other economic factors, it makes more economic sense.

But due to the many changes the photography market and the economy have undergone, there have been many photographers, amateurs and pros alike, that have had to tighten their belts and cut back on monthly costs.

Being dependent upon a credit card that can be charged monthly and an internet connection to keep PS functional might mean that many folks who are struggling through this rough economy would lose access to PS.

I muddled thru with CS3 for 5 plus years, thru unemployment and lean times, I still had PS to work with. If it was a subscription service, I would have had to let it lapse and turn to GIMP or some other program to continue photography.

May 9, 2013*permalink

Leon V

You better convert each PSD to a tiff or jpeg when when the image is completed because when you do not pay in a given month you no longer have Photoshop CC nor access to any PSD file.

May 9, 2013permalink

communicat

Last time I looked, The Gimp opened and produced .psd files just fine. Same for Corel's suite I've been trying out. May not work too well for very advanced layers and things - but for standard layers I'd not worry too much about being locked into the .psd file format.

May 9, 2013permalink

Fred Briggs

The Cloud aspect of this is just a smokescreen to make it seem like a different product. In reality this is just a move from selling perpetual licenses to paying monthly to use the software. It still gets installed locally on the PC, and you do not need to use the cloud facilities - the software just calls home periodically to check that it is still being paid for.

With the old model you decide when to pay for a new version. If you decide you won't or can't pay for the latest version your software keeps working indefinitely, and you can still edit your files at any time.

In the new Adobe Creative Cloud world you have to commit in advance to paying indefinitely, with no assurance of what the future price will be. Stop paying and the software stops working next time it calls home.

No doubt any file you create with the CC version will not be usable with earlier versions of the software, so you can forget working on any CC created files unless you keep your subscription going.

May 9, 2013*permalink

ianm2k4

"Stop paying and the software stops working next time it calls home."

I think that this is the big deal.. It stopping working after you cancel the subscription. Well it doesn't stop immediately it keeps working for some time (up to 99 days) but the issue is that it does stop. I think if Adobe addressed that problem then more people may accept the subscription model without so much hate.

May 9, 2013permalink

David Dolsen

I have been regularly and dutifully upgrading Photoshop since version 2.5 in 1994. The terms of doing business have been very simple: I buy the revised product and See You Next Time.

To tell me that I have no option but to use their "Cloud" and subscribe? No thank you. If they want to offer that arrangement as well, fine there are people for whom that will make sense; but I like to be able to cut the umbilical cord and get on with my business my own way.

There are other products out there now that don't require such an arrangement. I already own two of them, mainly because they do a better job of things like B&W conversion; it's only 19 years of using PS that has kept me with them, but if they don't rescind their demands then my version PS6 will be the last.

May 9, 2013permalink

Cameron R Hood

I wonder if Adobe anticipated this amount of backlash? I hope not. You're going to lose MOST of your customers, Adobe; this is a VERY bad idea. And to the folks making comments, I would suggest go to Adobe's webpage, find a way in (difficult) and send them a message directly, even if it's in the wrong place. I think we should keep the pressure UP till they relent.

May 9, 2013*permalink

Sloan Cranky

If you have already 'found' that place, please post the URL for the rest of us. I think it a great idea to directly respond to Adobe, but I know they are getting the drift of feelings from all over the 'net.

May 9, 2013permalink

40daystogo

Adobe did anticipate this. How much does it take for you to realise that Adobe are run by the same people as Goldman Sachs type executives? Did you read this article:

When asked, "Were you expecting such a negative response from the photographic community?" the Adobe guy replied: "We expected a higher degree of this type of reaction from the hobbyist photographic community".

May 9, 2013permalink

of course they did.
They really must be living in an ivory tower to be completely oblivious to the average problems and response faced by software 'solutions' like this.

The real problem is that :
(a) they will keep trying ...
and
(b) the majority don't care enough to actually use an alternative

May 9, 2013permalink

They're waiting for this to blow over. But when it comes to a choice between hurt feelings and steady cash every month, forever, Adobe isn't going to get sentimental. Me, either.

May 9, 2013permalink

"MOST" Really?

May 9, 2013permalink

DavidMaven

If one is a PS-only user, you continue to pay monthly forever to get ever less additional functionality. How many more pure-photography features can Adobe add that will ever be used?

Adobe is doing this because they have reached the point of diminishing marginal revenue with respect to their maintenance and enhancement of PS in the old license model.

May 9, 2013permalink

Right, but this is a problem, even without the subscription. Photoshop is aleady rich with features that aren't really useful for photography, which is why it's crucial to lock users into a subscription.

May 9, 2013permalink

Robert Schambach

Adobe stock prices down 3.4% from yesterday hope this downward trend continues, this might get somebodies attention.

May 9, 2013permalink

Will be visible in 1 W or M, if it is a drop because of all this!

May 9, 2013permalink

Robert Schambach

Just whent down to 3.49%

May 9, 2013permalink

They were going to sell a couple million upgrades to CS7 and LR5.... not anymore...there is absolutely no way they can make that up in Subscriptions, considering the backslash... I see Mr Samosa CEO being hanged by shareholders a year from now.

May 9, 2013permalink

SemperAugustus: "there is absolutely no way. . ." Really? You know this?

May 9, 2013permalink

Wojtegol

I think this poll is missing one very important option.
Lack of choice between cloud service and ability to buy "hard copy" of PS.
People, and not Adobe, should make decision what is the best choice for them, because thanks to millions of customer Adobe exists.
They ask people to tests new versions of their software but they do not ask us about this dramatic change.
We want to have a choice !

May 9, 2013permalink

You already have an alternative, but you're too much of a blind/loyal customer to notice.
It's simple : buy/use the competing product
If you aren't aware of such products you haven't done the research you ought to have done to begin with.

That is the reason why Adobe will succeed with stunts like this.

May 9, 2013permalink

Wojtegol

JaFo !
I wrote about the poll.
We have only options about Clouds but there is no chance to say that we like to have choice between "virtual" copy and "boxed" copy of PS.
We do not want to give up on PS for so many reasons, that is why so many people, here and there, express negative opinions about this deal.

May 9, 2013permalink

edu T

About the poll: I understand that, strictly speaking, yours would be the first option, namely "having to repeatedly pay to retain access" as opposed to paying just once for a "boxed copy" of PS.

May 9, 2013permalink

Wojtegol

Correct !
But it is not so clear like:
lack of choice between "virtual" copy and "hard" copy of PS.

May 9, 2013permalink

Rick Knepper

On Adobe forum, asked about ongoing ACR updates.

created by MadManChan2000 in Adobe Camera Raw - View the full discussion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACR 7.4 is the last 7.x version. However, ACR 8 will soon be available for both CC and CS6 users. (This is a departure from the past, in that the new ACR 8 will be available for an older Ps version.) New camera support and lens profiles will be included with this ACR 8 update, so if you currently have CS6 and all you're looking for are the latest camera support, camera profiles, and lens profiles, you will be all set.

May 9, 2013permalink

... for a given time...

May 9, 2013permalink

Rick DeBari

Until they pull the plug..

May 9, 2013permalink

Plasmoic

their sales used to somehow measure their innovative and supportive efforts, so reflecting the value of a software developer company more fairly, lets say...so by targeting a steadier cash flow stream, they try to avoid the reflection of those ups and downs in their developping abilities onto the cash generated..this can be seen as a hedge against their own business model, but the fee is paid by the customers..so the price includes both the product usage and the promise by the company to develop and excel their products and this exactly what makes its overpriced

May 9, 2013permalink

Leon V

Significant side effects on other companies and authors. I will continue to use Photoshop CS6 and not subscribe to Photoshop CC (I own the CS6 disc and CS6 will be on my computer for ever at no extra cost).

I am a NAPP member but I will not renew; NAPP will only involve PS CC from now on (useless to me) and no more trips to Photoshop World. Dekes Techniques and all of his books in the future will be about PS CC; I will no longer buy his books (I have many). I will no longer subscribe to Linda.com nor KelbyTraining.com for photoshop training. I will not buy future books on Photoshop and I have many (by M. Evening, K. Eismann, J. Schewe, and many others). I will not be looking at Photoshop Blogs by John Nack, Julieanne Kost, Scott Kelby, etc.

This move by Adobe is going to hurt many companies and authors that rely on future Photoshop releases, excuse me, I mean future Photoshop CC updates. I have really enjoyed the ride for many years but it has ended.

May 9, 2013permalink

I hope the majority is willing to do what you say.

I fear the worst.
Adobe will win and we as consumers are going to lose, because the vast majority does not care about the danger.

May 9, 2013permalink

I am planning to follow your path. I actually have my own MeetUp where I am promoting PS Workshops, I will change them to Alternatives to PS... because frankly, I don't see newcomers adding a monthly bill just because Adobe thinks PS is irreplaceable.

May 9, 2013permalink

JaFo: Or maybe there really is no danger.

May 9, 2013permalink

Barbu

John Haugaard: Adobe decided that you can no longer use its software, unless you continually pay them. It's a change, and some are afraid of THIS change.
Adobe evangelists are calling everyone a coward, because everyone is afraid of this particular change. Of course, we're cowards because we are afraid to bend over or we are simply not willing to; but, of course, there will always be people that have more relaxed... views ;)

May 10, 2013*permalink

Mark2008

Adobe is doing what it wants, and not what customers want. Adobe has a near monopoly, and is turing that into a narcissistic dictatorship. Many professional artists are a bit like farmers with unsteady income that Adobe now wants to tax...consistently.

If Adobe has the best product in the world, the product will stand and deliver on its own and not require anti-competitive coercion.

May 9, 2013permalink

Marques Lamont

An interesting question I have is this:

In general, how much do you plan on spending on photography per year?

I think this question will make things a bit clearer.

I take it that many here don't plan on spending more than $500 per year?

May 9, 2013permalink

kimvette

You lay out a SINGLE lump of cash for a lens, a body, a filter, a bag, etc.

You don't have to add a monthly bill to your budget.

THAT is the problem. I suspect most would pay a little more up front and OWN the product than to add another monthly bill, which is an inconvenience and an uncertainty.

This move by Adobe is downright customer hostile - they have become arrogant like Microsoft.

May 9, 2013permalink

ryansholl

Well, what can one buy for $500?

A nex 3 series, late model, new
Full set of legacy primes from 28 to 200mm
Tripod and all necessary accessories

Photoshop

If you chose photoshop, your choice next year is:

Photoshop

The next:

Photoshop

And who knows how long you'll be able to afford it even if you could squeak it by this year. Pricing is at Adobe's whim, is it not?

May 9, 2013*permalink

(unknown member)

What aspect of photography are you referring to? How much on a camera? Accessories? Travel? Time preparing? Time post processing? Here's a scenario:
A person buys a 7D, PS CS5, a few accessories, and a decent lens. After four years of shooting their average expenditure per year for all their hardware and software (new PS license, new camera body, all new everything, nothing used or upgrade license pricing) is around $1,000 per year (assuming $4k for everything up front and not taking into account any prints they make or profit made from selling anything). Their PS/ACR software will keep working with their setup for another 4 years, at which point the average will be $500 a year. Now, for 8 years instead of spending $650 on PS CS5 one time they had to ay for PS monthly that whole time for $30 a month for a total of $2,880. The average over 8 years is now $6,230/8=$779. What else could have been done in that time with the extra $2,230 that Adobe wants? Oh wait, it's just surplus!

May 9, 2013*permalink

(unknown member)

Your post smacks of someone who has a very different set of priorities than many of us, has too much money, or has some reason not to value money as others do. If I choose to place my priority on buying a cup of coffee at SBucks every day, that is my prerogitive and Adobe has no right to my "discretionary" spending. My "surplus" is only as I personally define it in the context of MY priorities. Thank the universe for whatever free will I have, because if I had to share your will I'd throw us both off a bridge.

May 9, 2013permalink

Marques Lamont

I'm speaking about everything photography related for ONE year. Not 8 years cumulatively or 4 years, but ONE single year. Not "scenarios", but simply ONE year. No offense, hostility, or incivility towards you, but I ask a straightforward question, and you give a "scenario?" I don't get it.

I'm speaking of equipment, software, repairs, training, rentals, travel, model fees, printing, insurance (if it's your thing), legal fees or anything else. Yes, for the hobbyist.

I set aside between $1200 to $2000 each year but I usually never spend that much. The minimum is $500 per year. If I can't afford that, I'm cutting it close because I may not even have enough to replace my own equipment. Or I might have to seriously cut back. Anything could happen.

May 9, 2013*permalink

(unknown member)

What do you think "per" means? Total spent/#years=$ per year. How much will I spend on photography this year only? Okay, I'll spend as much as I can in time on post processing and I'll spend as much as I can in travel money to take me to places I wish to photograph. Why? Because years ago I made an investment in many different things, including a camera and PS. THAT was a banner year for blowing thousands of dollars on photography related items. Since then, I've gone places, stayed at home, and done commercial work. Those expenditures don't exist in the vacuum that you only wish existed.
So given YOUR scheme, wouldn't you rather spend $30X12 this year on something other than just the honor of using a program that you typically spend less than $360? If you consider my expenditures on PS since the first buy (CS, CS3, CS5 for a grand total of about $1,200 since 2003) that's $120 per year versus the $360/yr. price hike, which is huge. And I'm not done with my 7D yet by a long shot.

May 9, 2013*permalink

(unknown member)

Marques, you want others to have your budget and priorites. We don't. I'll use my CS5 until I can't any more and Adobe will have nothing to lure me into staying. Long and short of it. If it is worth it to you, bully for you and carry on in good health. For many others it is a big "screw you guys" from Adobe. They want more money for services NOT rendered....or services we absolutely do not want. I'd rather blow $250 to upgrade next in a year or two than spend $360 a year for the rest of my life....that money can be much, much better spent or much better saved. We're happy that you can afford it and have no other plans for that money. As of now about 95% of us do have other plans.

May 9, 2013*permalink

Marques Lamont

Thanks for your reply howardroark.

May 9, 2013permalink

Wodheila

It's a privacy issue also. They can give all the assurances they want but, in the end, your work is no longer yours. Who knows who is looking at it and doing what with it?

Of course, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've nothing to worry about.

May 9, 2013permalink

(unknown member)

I am already a slave to one "A" (Apple) I have no desire to become a slave to the "other" A. I have Photoshop CS4 installed on one of my computers, but never use it. Aperture and Pixelmator take care of all my needs, because I am a photographer, not a graphic artiste, and if I have to putz around with a photo for too long, it's not worth keeping. Move along to the next one...

Still, I can understand and sympathize with the frustrations I read here.

May 9, 2013permalink

twadger

Has anyone read the terms and conditions of CC. Onerous isn't the word.

Examples:
"Adobe may modify or discontinue, temporarily or permanently, the Services or Materials, or any portion thereof, with or without notice. You agree that Adobe shall not be liable to you or anyone else if we do so."

"You agree that any claim or dispute you may have against Adobe must be resolved by a court located in Santa Clara County, California, United States of America"

"You agree that Adobe may display advertisements adjacent to Your Content, and you agree that you are not entitled to any compensation."

"You agree to receive updates (and permit Adobe to deliver these to you with or without your knowledge) as part of your use of the Services."

"Adobe may require you to create a unique URL, such as your_name_here.adobe.com. Adobe may permit another User to use the unique URL previously selected by you."

Welcome to the future.....

May 9, 2013permalink

agentul

TLDR version: You agree that you have no rights other than pay your subscription on time.

May 9, 2013permalink

Rick DeBari

Unbelievable arrogance from Adobe!! Thanks for the enlightenment on the T&C for CC.

May 9, 2013permalink

FOK U and your whole Crew!

May 9, 2013permalink

Sam2

Hi,

I copied your post with the onerous terms and added it to my post on Digital Grin. i didn't think you would object to getting this info out.

Sam

May 9, 2013permalink

sebastian huvenaars

I find this quite disturbing.

May 9, 2013permalink

marike6

The CC model totally defeats the purpose of a "personal computer".

If enough people sign-up for this, other companies will follow with similarly cynical, self-serving product offerings.

May 9, 2013permalink

the bad news :
the future is already here

Anyone who has dealt with digital media has had to sign similar 'contracts' already.
Sure, sometimes there is enough backlash to cause such companies to reword their changes. However in reality they're just waiting till we're asleep.

It's a damned shame that no government is willing to protect the customers and too few consumers have the money to sue them.

May 9, 2013permalink

Nely

What concerns me is that this obviously is not what their customers want. If they create an enticing new upgrade people are excited to purchase it. Adobe appears to be trying to sidestep that philosophy and still make money.

As a shareholder I am also concerned about the continued stock price decline, (another 3% today).

This should be a great opportunity for Other software companies to give the customers what they want.

May 9, 2013permalink

And you honestly think that other companies won't follow that pattern ?
The 'software as a service'-idea isn't exactly new.
It's what all software companies will use if they need to survive.
At least that's what managers believe ...

May 9, 2013permalink

Nely

In the business world I live in the companies who survive are those that give the consumer what they ask for. It's obvious from these posts that Adobe is ignoring these people. In a free market another company will fill that void.

May 9, 2013permalink

DaveBowman

Thinks stinks of an Adobe 'sponsored' poll. The cage has been well and truly rattled.

May 9, 2013permalink

leomartinez

Sadly you are possible right. Any way they will read our opinions and points of view, they will know that we acknowledge they are showing us his teeth, we all ( mostly) are quite aware of that.

May 9, 2013permalink

seidensticker

Most of us feel screwed by Adobe and will look elsewhere. I wonder whether Adobe was forced into this new pricing because they are at the tail end of innovation. Witness the paucity of new features in CS6 versus CS5. How do they get income when they are at the end of innovation? Charge a monthly rent. Then, whether they innovate or not, they get paid. Now they will have no incentive to innovate.

May 9, 2013permalink

This comment shows exactly what the real problem is with the rental scheme, and that once you're invested, you either have to continually pay for upgrades you may not want, or lose the upgrade you've already paid for since you started the service.

What does it show? That each user needs to be able to choose whether an upgrade is worth the cost. I happen to think CS6 was well worth the upgrade from CS5...the revised processing engine dramatically sped up overall operation, and the Adaptive Wide Angle tool is worth it for that alone. BUT, different users have different needs, and many people did not think CS6 was worth it and chose not to upgrade at that time. With CC, that option is gone. You either pay to upgrade forever, or you never upgrade again.

May 9, 2013permalink

Philnw2

Adobe just screwed themselves. When i joined a photography club, it was the other members who recommended photoshop. Not to mention legions of volunteers who instructed the next generations in how to work with Photoshop. Does Adobe really believe that screwed over customers are going to recommend their product in the future. You can bet that i'll never recommend anything to do with Adobe. Adobe isn't about ART, they are about money. Once they get this rental scheme in place, they can raise the rates to whatever they want.

May 11, 2013*permalink

leomartinez

What I concern the most is the consumer loosing his power. This online software rented service is a total unacceptable situation. Software has been treated in a special way by the copyrights laws all over the world, they are not treated like works of inttelect, like art and literature, nor like a industrial property. Right now adobe see the fissure and take advantage, what will be able to do in the future when we are trapped in their pen bleating adobeeheeeheee, adobeeheeeheee? I am a Lightroom user and when I see my neighbor's beard burn, mine get soaked.

May 9, 2013permalink

I wonder how many people would complain if you could use a new Nikon D800E, Nikon D4, Canon 1Dx or a Canon 5Dmk3 for $19 a month and then after a year decided to return it?

May 9, 2013permalink

PhotoHawk

It wouldn't be $19 per month. Take a look at the camera rentals.
Adobe is charging $19 per month for a product that costs $399. For a product that costs $3999 it would be $190 month on the same upgrade cycle. Put like that its a pretty expensive lease isn't it? No residual value and no ownership.

May 9, 2013permalink

Dale Garman

this is apples and oranges. The key question is could you use the pictures you took if you returned it? If the mfg disabled them when you returned the camera then it is close to the Adobe model. If you can't use the pictures, then no I would not be happy with that trade either.

May 9, 2013permalink

Well, these Cams are betwenn 2600 and 7000 €.
Very bad comparison.

And two points are even more important:
1. A copy of software cost nothing at all. A copy of a cam quite a lot!
2. Software can't take damage and no shutter count goes up.

May 9, 2013permalink

sfpeter

Well it's hardware for one thing, which wears and degrades over time, and no one is offering that. So to get a brand new top of the line camera and use it as I please for a year and then return it for another spending just $228 would be a steal. Software that doesn't wear, and that would require paying forever until the next upgrade that may not be worth the effort is another matter altogether.

May 9, 2013*permalink

ssh33

...but neither worked in the field if it happened to be the monthly internet authentication time, and the pictures you took with it could not be opened after the rental.

May 9, 2013permalink

Biowizard

You CAN hire a camera if you want to. Or buy it on finance. Just as you can cars. Or golf clubs.

But once you have paid in full for your camera, it's yours to keep. You can trade in for a new model if you want, or just stick with the old one you know. And if you then lose your job or run out of money for some other reason, it won't suddenly stop working. Or be taken away. And neither will you be denied access to any of the photos you might have taken with it.

So yours is a poor analogy. This Adobe thing is altogether more insidious than you make out.

May 9, 2013permalink

DaveBowman

Well I for one would. Aside from the fact that your sums are way out (as already pointed out), I like to own the products I pay for, be it a car, house or, in this case, software.

May 9, 2013permalink

A good comparison would be a model that is MORE expensive than it costs to upgrade your camera now. So, if you buy a 5D III and sell your 5D II as an 'upgrade' and you do this every three years, then it can be viewed as paying roughly $1,000 for those three years of use from the 'upgrade.' (or $2,800 for three years if you're buying new). So, assuming a $1,000 upgrade cost, that's $28 a month under the 'old' system. So if Canon matched Adobe, they'd charge you $50 a month for the 'upgrade', and you'd have to pay that forever to keep the camera. If you decided that the 5D III was good enough for you to keep for 8 years...no matter, you still have to pay $50 a month for those 8 years. If you ever wanted to 'own' the 5D III, well, sorry, you can't.

Oh, and the big stickler? Canon could take the camera back from you for ANY reason whatsoever, with no reimbursement. If you think that's crazy, look at the CC EULA...that clause is in there.

May 9, 2013*permalink

all good points.... I'm well aware of leasing costs myself.

So if the cost of this dropped to $11 per month how much uproar would there still be?

May 9, 2013permalink

DaveBowman, you never did own the software... you were always a licensee... the subscription is just a longer term of 3-5 years. Only difference is the ET call home feature of the CC software which I think personally for me is the bigger issue.

May 9, 2013permalink

Michael de Ruijter

That's not even slightly ridiculous. You're comparing chili to fruit salad.

I would love to rent a 5D MkIII for $20 per month. The reality is you rent that with a 70-200mm f2.8 stabilised lens for $940 per week.

May 9, 2013permalink

okay... fine people the pricing comparison is off-I get that... I wasn't comparing costs. I was comparing the use of professional level tools, being accessible to the enthusiast/hobby market.

Photoshop has always been an industrial level professional tool. Lightroom is where photographers should be at. If you're doing things in Photoshop that requires the tools in there, then you're doing much more than a typical photographer.

May 9, 2013permalink

leomartinez

This price point is the bait. Once you bite it you are done. And certainly you can rent a camera, please go and do it for about a year and after that come here to tell us about the health of your checking account. Absurdity beside, you can always buy your things with the credit card: you get what you want and pay the loan, keeping your power of decision over the market. Once hooked by adobe renting system (without any competition) what do you think they will ofer you in the short term, in the long term?

May 9, 2013permalink

It's not the money that is the real issue.
It could have been 1$/month.

Focussing on the monetary problem is a Chewbacca defense.

May 9, 2013permalink

sfpeter

As long as Photoshop Elements is still available as a buy it and use it product that will pretty much take care of my Photoshop needs, which are average consumer/prosumer uses. I never got any of the Creative Suites because I simply couldn't afford them.

A subscription arrangement is bad all around--you never stop paying, well after you've paid what it would have cost to buy it outright, and if you're like me $50 is a tank and a half of gas or groceries for a week.

They would have been better off charging a small flat fee for Photoshop and then more for modules/add-ons/filters; letting people buy what they want and can afford.

As it is the only thing worse I can think of is metering the product so you pay by how much or often you do something with it.....I hope I just didn't give them some more bad ideas....

May 9, 2013permalink

Shadowfax2009

Photographers are CONTROL FREAKS!! We want to control the light, the time, the mood, the ISO, film grain...and so on. And adobe dares to take away the control from out dark-room! Want to make us pay rent for my chisel and hammer!

That's going to raise some heated discussion. As for me, I will stick to me grounded version of CS4. I am not too kin to walk in the clouds I guess.

May 9, 2013permalink

BobORama

A picture is worth 1000 words. http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJ1VN-DCAAIEjRp.png:large

May 9, 2013permalink

Robert Schambach

Very good

May 9, 2013permalink

jljones

Adobe is exercising its monopoly in what could be seen as illegal. There's no competition so the company clearly feels it can do what it wants. Disgraceful particularly for those who have paid a lot of money over the years for their products.

May 9, 2013permalink

Assuming that the polls as they stand at 4059, it means that Adobe has approximately .8 million dollars to lose from this forum alone. Keep pushing and maybe Adobe will take notice. However Photoshop is only a small part of the CS suite that they sell to.

I was at an industry advisory board meeting with graphic professionals, and all of them were looking forward to the new change/subscription model. We discussed how this affects photographers and we all pretty much agreed if you're using Photoshop (not Lightroom) it is a horrible deal.

May 9, 2013*permalink

Of course this assumes that everyone that answered the poll are using Photoshop and are current licensees. With my experience of statistics, I would say there's an error of 20% and probably going to assume that only 60% of the people in the poll are actual paid licensees. That value is probably more like .4 million dollars of potential loss in this poll. How much Adobe cares about that will be the key point though.

(2 million users on CC, probably a good percentage new users, vs the 4000+ on here. Still need more reaction than that for them to respond I would say).

May 9, 2013*permalink

mikesco

Often they use a small sample rate for political polls to get a very good idea of how the public will vote. Fact is among photographers in this poll, only about 5% think this subscription method will work for them. I will give you the standard disclaimer that this poll is subject to an error of plus or minus 2%.

May 9, 2013permalink

(unknown member)

I disagree. I think people who don't currently own PS might like the new plan because they can start using it without a huge investment up front. I think every single one of the people unhappy with what is going on would only have any motivation to express that feeling if they owned a license. A slightly more sophisticated poll would take this into account, but pirates won't care one way or the other and people only just now getting started down the PS path are much more able to adapt than those of us who currently use it.

May 9, 2013permalink

a good point Howardroark, and of the 2million users on CC, I did hear a report from them half a year ago saying most of those people were new users.

May 9, 2013permalink

(unknown member)

The question is, when those users have been paying for the next few years and someone releases a competitive product that will offer them a real license how easily will Adobe customers ditch them? I'd say very, very easily though perhaps not extremely quickly (some people will stay on board for a while as everyone gets trained up on the new software). They'll see how much they are being robbed and switch in a heartbeat. And the competing software won't even have to be all that cheap because it offers a feature that Adobe simply refuses to offer. Apple may improve their software to lure people over to their hardware and the premium won't seem terribly unreasonable compared to renting software for the rest of your life. It doesn't take very much to lure the sharks to the boat, just a little blood in the water.

May 9, 2013permalink

SteveJL

Not necessarily Howard.

I was going to buy CS sometime this year or next because I have the time and opportunity now to learn it properly. Will not do so now because a) I will NOT rent s/w and have it cost well over twice the cost over 5 years and nothing tangible to show for it, and b) I will NOT deal with a company that treats it's customers like this, and c) It is going to become MUCH harder to take the courses I was counting on taking as Ed. facilities drop courses.

My CS buy-in would have cost $1500 ($1200 initial + $300 for 2 updates). 5 years of CC rental would cost $3000 (plus whatever increases Adoobie applies in that time).

So, if you estimate that 2000 people here are lost revenue, at a modest average of $500 (I'm sure there are others like me), that's $1m lost, just among us at DPR. Worldwide, it will be MUCH more, I'm sure.

May 9, 2013permalink

mikesco

Of the 2 million members only around 500,000 are paid, the rest are trial.
Maybe that is how to get around this, use an old version of Photoshop and the rare occasion you need to use a new feature sign up for a trial.

May 9, 2013permalink

Michael de Ruijter

This is an incomplete poll.

Where is the option "After I stop paying I end up with nothing, not even a useable legacy product."?

May 9, 2013permalink

(unknown member)

That is the first option. Paying to retain access implies what happens when you stop paying....you lose access.

May 9, 2013permalink

agentul

where's the Charlton Heston option?

"from my cold, dead hands!"

oh, wait, that's also the first option.

May 9, 2013*permalink

alatchin

DP review has hit the nail on the head with their phrasing of the first options. "having to repeatedly pay to retain access" RETAIN access to past work as well as the software access, nevermind if you are creating new work... Simply accessing a previous project, picture, website, brochure, illustration etc. will cost you money.

No thanks. But when you earn your living from it, they know they have a gun against your head. While markets shift and competitors will respond Adobe is well aware of the fact that most earning professionals will have no choice. Eventually they will get a file they can't open as it was produced on an updated CC product, and they will have ha choice... Lose the income from the project or subscribe.

May 9, 2013*permalink

FunckyPIX

Working in print company we used to update regularly to keep opening files from customers, but now universal file format will be the rule.

May 9, 2013permalink

Nikon Norm

The other real issue is that after paying for a year or two you have nothing to show for it. You don't own the product.

May 9, 2013permalink

jberk

the key point

May 9, 2013permalink

you never did own the software... you licensed it. It also doesn't stop you from saving it to an open standard like TIFF.

PSD is just a proprietary TIFF format (TIFF is also owned by Adobe).

Besides PSD can be opened by many other programs out there. You own your content still, just not Photoshop.

May 9, 2013permalink

FunckyPIX

Once a time you used to pay but now get out of that appartment and leave all the Picasso, Rembrandt, Monet in it...

May 9, 2013permalink

http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/creativecloud/cc/pdfs/cc-availability-matrix.pdf

KD - the 'you don't currently own it' is a semantic argument. Yes, you don't own the source code and have the right to resell it and modify it like you do an owned good. But you DO own the license, perpetually, and therefore it's the same as 'owning' the program in any modern way of thinking about it. Adobe can't take away CS6 from you. You just can't resell it or change it (or reverse engineer it and use the code in another product).

May 9, 2013permalink

MSTR Photography

The comments on this page should be about the poll, not what was hashed over yesterday. I do not know what the right questions are for this type of poll, but I do know that I will not vote in this poll because I do not believe it is asking the right questions. Any suggestions for a poll which puts a proper perspective on the subject? Adobe may not listen, but I will.

May 9, 2013permalink

Bill Bentley

So you exercised enough thought to say these poll questions are wrong, but not enough to suggest what should replace them. Weak.

May 9, 2013permalink

(unknown member)

We've already recommended a poll asking licensed users if they'll buy into this new scheme. This poll, however, does indeed ask the right question: if you have a problem with the CC pricing, what is it? The first option doesn't just mean you have to pay every month, it also means that you don't like having nothing when you stop paying. That seems to be the main objection. All of those issues apply to me, but the one I care about MOST is number one. We don't care if you listen, no offense. You won't even state your opinon on this admittedly gently worded question.

May 9, 2013*permalink

UrsH

There huge amount of countries where individuals cant subscribe see:

another plus for the competition!

May 9, 2013permalink

Wm Leddon Studios

I am a professional photographer of 35 years. I have been struggling over the last several years competing in this cut throat industry with shoot and burn, and unskilled amateur photographers. Therefore I don't have the volume of work I usually enjoy. When I am working on a photographic assignment, I need to have the necessary software to do the best job. When I'm not working, I don't want to have to continue to pay for software when I'm not generating income to support the ongoing monthly cost from Adobe. Also when I'm not working on an assignment, I am constantly researching and experimenting new techniques to improve image quality and test inkjet papers.

With this current Adobe pricing structure, it takes the choice away from me to upgrade to newer versions or not, and afford to continue to use a product even when business is slow or non existent.

May 9, 2013permalink