30 minute limit on video capture could end if WTO group gets its way

I wonder why my Samsung Galaxy Note Cellphone can record FullHD for 50 minutes without any 30 minute limitation?

Frankly, I don't buy this WTO press-release. As far as I can see, the 30 minute limitation is being encouraged by the major manufacturers as it prevents the viability of their Camcorder products from being threatened by the newer P&S cameras.

Until 2012, Panasonic was only limiting European cameras, but now they are limiting camera models for countries which do not have the import tarif restrictions (USA, Hong Kong, Singapore)

May 22, 2012permalink

spitfire31

From the intro above: "digital cameras' video cuts off after 30 minutes to avoid them being classified as video cameras (which attract 5.4% duty)."

This is nonsensical and erroneous.

The reason that (non-professional!) video cameras (incl. still cameras w. video option) are limited to a continuous shooting time of 30 minutes is to avoid them being classified as VIDEO RECORDERS. Video reorders (be they tape, solid state or HD) carry an added EU levy to compensate for the perceived losses of income to copyright holders whose broadcast work is recorded for personal use.

May 21, 2012permalink

Lensjoy

Government, get out of my camera bag!

May 21, 2012permalink

Mat Miller

I would pay that 5.4% for longer video. especially if its 2k and above!

May 21, 2012permalink

A MODEST PROPOSAL TO DP REVIEW:
Re: The 30 minute video time limit
(and the over-heating limitations)

Attention: Richard Butler, Andy Westlake, Amadou Diallo et al.,

To quote (and give proper credit to) Robbster (from a reply to me below):

" . . . until we can get the manufacturers to do the right thing, I think we
should request THAT THE RECORD TIME BE A STANDARD SPECIFICATION ITEM FOR EACH VIDEO FORMAT SUPPORTED BY A CAMERA."

This would require only a few characters in a preview and review.

This is a video performance spec of precisely the same parallel importance as the battery charge shot capacity spec for still shots !

It is information ESSENTIAL in evaluating a piece of equipment for one's particular video performance requirements.

And I know that I do not have to remind you Noble Gentlemen of DP REVIEW how EVER INCREASINGLY important the video abilities of virtually all still cameras are --from the lowliest P&S (and cell phone !) to PRO !

May 21, 2012permalink

peevee1

Not only continuous record time, but more important is the total record time on one full battery, with Live View on, at 80F to simulate the typical "touristy" conditions. Some cameras (coughNEXcough) will overheat much earlier that their 30 min limit...

May 21, 2012permalink

Maloy,

With all due respect, you're still living in the 20th century.

The VAST majority of people (and growing every minute in proportion to the video capabilities of every single still camera) are not going out like they used to and expending $$ for, and dragging around -- ANOTHER CAMERA just to take videos, when their own camera can take 1080p (of again, ever increasing quality), that THEY find is more than good enough.

The biggest growing overall sales and use trend, even in still cams, is SMALLER and LIGHTER, and easier to carry kit. People, and photo enthusiasts, increasingly find a simple DSLR is too big, for God's sake.

Sure a dedicated Video camera of high quality can do better -- but still cams are now capable of doing it well enough for most people, without them paying for, and lugging another piece of equipment around.

Your overall point is of course very well taken, and I agree with your witty analogy, but dear Maloy --
The Masses are speaking -- LESS IS MORE !

May 21, 2012*permalink

Maloy, my cellphone can take excellent 1080p video.

I wonder why that capability has been added to cellphones? Perhaps because there is a demand? Because not all of us have our heads in the sand, pretending video and stills are different? Both are intended to convey allusion and memories. It is best for both to be at your fingertips, to choose as appropriate for the occasion.

Oh wait - I have already used my cellphone instead of my ZS15 during our Madrid trip last week... It worked well..
No wonder Samsung is winding down production of P&S cameras...

May 21, 2012permalink

Well said, trevmar!!

May 21, 2012permalink

Marcel Kuemmet

I shoot long video recordings of legal interviews and testimony. A Panasonic AVCHD recording directly to 500 gb HDD recorder, as well as being rendered. The signals are split. Not in HD. A Canon HF 10 with a class 8 card will record (in HD) until the battery dies or the card is full. Have done it many times. I also use a Canon T2i, for special HD shots or footage. But I never shoot long clips or leave the shutter running for several minutes (I am told, but not sure) as that can apparently cause damage to the sensor? The T2i is running Magic Lantern on full manual.
So, needless to say, I'm a little confused here. I have been doing for years what is said cant be done. And I know I'm not that good.
I also blog ... here is one of my recent ones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM7lAx6HOF8

May 21, 2012permalink

Marcel, you say you are confused, this thread is about removing the record time limits on still cameras with video. You mention the HF 10, that is a camcorder, not a still camera with video. Should record until you hit stop, the battery dies, or you fill the card, no one disputes that or says it "can't be done" with a camcorder. It just can't be done with many modern still cameras, that have built in recording time limits for video.

May 21, 2012permalink

customminds

why don't they just make the cameras identical to security cams. they keep capturing video, but will save in 15 or 30 minute segments. that way they never record longer than 30 minute captures -- yet continuously record to the SD/CF limit. problem solved. someone give me my 10% of the solution idea money. (ie: a 2 hour long video cuts into 4 x 30 minute SEAMLESS segments)

May 20, 2012*permalink

richg101

the 30 minute limit affects not one of the complainers here at DP. Most dont even use their cameras -for spending time talking about them is a lot easier than actually using them. rubbish topic of debate.

May 20, 2012permalink

I have only posted here 1647 times.In your eyes I don't count? Open your eyes. Every few weeks I record a conference session of around two hours, then extract the interesting stuff from it. I mainly use my LX5, as it records for over 2 hours from one battery.

This new limitation is a critical problem for me...

May 21, 2012permalink

AmaturFotografer

I want to record longer but my D7k will become to hot to handle after a couple of minutes.

But this change is welcome.

May 21, 2012permalink

So let me get this straight,

Because some people MIGHT video a movie with a STILL camera, the REST OF THE POPULATION OF PLANET EARTH are now considered convicted co-conspirators. And without due process, must be assessed a penalty AND have our right to video ANYTHING for longer than 30 minutes straight revoked.
Oh, and did I mention that this outrage is being imposed by a for-profit industry in conjunction with vulture camera manufacturers opportunistically using this pathetic excuse to attempt to squeeze more $$$$ out of their customers' pockets !!

One more important technical note--A quality HD video camera, unfettered by this limit, is capable of higher quality than the average still camera, and would be the obvious choice for intellectual property rights thieves.

Also, since more and more people are watching Blu-Ray level movies, the call for inferior video and wretched non-surround sound
(with coughs) knockoffs is diminishing.

And we're supposed to be alright with this ?!?

May 20, 2012*permalink

zapatista

Wow, you really have nothing better to do?

May 20, 2012permalink

Well it's a dirty job and somebody's gotta do it.

Arbitrary restrictions on my and other's freedom, even technological and artistic freedom affects me, and I speak out about it in this most appropriate venu

At least I'm using my mind and doing it, you're just sittin' around reading it and complaining, and not even about the subject at hand, but about somebody else actually doing some thinking.

I am frankly surprised at this, zapatista, as I have noticed a few of your posts on other subjects in the past and have always found them on target, interesting, and at least on one occasion, laced with commendable sarcastic wit.

May 20, 2012*permalink

China only allows one camera of each type for each visitor. I have to use the camcorder for A-roll, and my LX5 for B-roll (you do understand that nomenclature, I guess?)

But since you are obviously a technically expert and experienced videographer, I am sure you could do a much better job than I...

I could give many other examples of why I feel betrayed by Panasonic over this new 30 minute crippling, but you obviously aren't listening, so I will save my breath...

May 21, 2012permalink

trevmar,

I assume this was a miss-placed followup to your heartfelt reply (above) directed to the insensitive,uninformed, and dismissive comment of rchg101.

For my part, I am TOTALLY with you about Panasonic getting onboard with the crippling, and your well-justified feeling of being betrayed by them as a customer.

I was also completely unaware of that Chinese restriction, but as we all know of China's repression of artistic and other freedoms, including the internet, I am unfortunately not surprised. Thank you trevmar, for letting us all know about it.

May 21, 2012*permalink

Ben, thanks for your response.
China also only allows 2 batteries, per camera.
Oppressive? Well, you certainly won't get an ENG camcorder through customs unless your visa says "journalist" -- and there are few of those visas issued.

But it is a wonderful country, with a wonderful people who have given me many hours of joy :) This footage, for example, was shot (a long time ago) with my Panasonic LX5:
https://vimeo.com/12292094

No extended recordings in that clip! But I have been waiting for a Panasonic MOS sensor camera to stop those vertical lines from the light bulbs in the butcher shop... Now I will have to wait, I guess, or carry two P&S cameras instead of one...

I did carry both the LX5 and the ZS15 to Granada, Spain, last week, but ended up using my new cellphone camera for the quick-reaction candid shots, rather than the ZS15. The phone is a Samsung Galaxy Note, which incidentally records 50 minutes of FullHD video nonstop :)

May 21, 2012permalink

Ben, you, I and Tevmar seem to be on the same page! I went to start looking up video recording limits here on DPR and they are kinda hard to find, they are not a standard item in the specs list or database unfortunately.

So, until we can get the manufacturers to do the right thing, I think we should request that record time be a standard specification item for each video format supported by a camera.

May 21, 2012permalink

trevmar,

They even restrict the no. of batteries ?! Ay yay yay (not Chinese, I know)

Just returned from a brief wonderful trip behind the scenes in Shanghai (I'll take one of each of the eggs, please) courtesy of you -- thanks muchly !!

Let's hope the WTO does get these absurd and artificial limits lifted !

In the meantime, don't let the jerks get you down and . . .
VIDEO ON MY FRIEND, VIDEO ON !

May 21, 2012permalink

Robbster,

Re: Recording time limits as a standard spec to be listed.

A most excellent and LEGITIMATE idea !!

May 21, 2012permalink

(unknown member)

Looking at the feedback over time on some cameras it might be an idea to carry a compact fire extinguisher with you when taking extended videos on a camera designed for stills, just in case the heat cutout fails to trip. Just a little tip.

May 20, 2012*permalink

Never had that trouble with my GH1, maybe it's an issue with other cameras ;)

May 20, 2012permalink

Never had that trouble with my LX5. I run it until the battery dies some times, 2 hours and 30 minutes. Never overheated.

I wish people here would post based on personal experience, not hearsay...

May 20, 2012permalink

trevmar and Andy,

I do not at the moment own any Panasonic cams, but . . .

Since the 30 minute limitation appears to be newer, it seems perhaps your two cams, both of which came out some time ago,
pre-date it.

I might be a little leery, however, of any firmware updates from now on, and would check to see if they affect said video issue.

May 21, 2012*permalink

@Ben Raven Actually the PAL version of the GH1 has the 30 min limit, however the NTSC version doesn't and you can install a hack to remove the limit in the PAL version very easily.

May 21, 2012permalink

The Canon 5D Mk III will start a new file on reaching 4GB. But the 30 min limit remains. What I want to do is record car journeys which can exceed 30 mins.
I don't know if this limit exists in Australia and I'd like to pay the extra tax if there is a firmware option. But it seems to be a European tax which affects the whole world.
This is similar to the (no longer applied) tethering restrictions placed on the iPhone because of an agreement with AT&T which affected the world distribution and encouraged jailbreaking.

May 20, 2012permalink

Tethering is a perfect analogy.. it is up to the user to decide how to use the camera they have bought

May 20, 2012permalink

JadedGamer

How did it affect the world distribution? Tethering on iPhone worked from day one from countries/operators that included it in their plans: The restriction was on a per-operator/contract basis in the OS.

May 20, 2012permalink

the iphone 4 was blocked from tethering by Apple until iOS 4.3 was introduced with personal hotspot. It only worked on the IPhone 4 or later. Jailbroken devices had no restriction.

May 20, 2012*permalink

Robbster, et al.,

WILL THE REAL VILLAINS STEP UP !

Who then are the culprit Manufacturers crippling their still cameras' video capacity out of opportunistic greed, and thus obstructing our creative control.

Let's make the list !

May 20, 2012permalink

At the moment it is ALL OF THEM.
Panasonic, up until 2012, allowed unlimited AVCHD recording. The FZ-150 can record beyond 30 minutes, for example.

But all the Panasonic 2012 models, worldwide, have been crippled. I can't even buy an un-crippled one from Hong Kong :(

May 20, 2012permalink

Wolfgang Fieger

Sorry, but...

The average take in a cinema movie is a mere 15 seconds. The longest takes you could watch are in some nature documentation videos, where you could find single takes with a few minutes. I really never ever saw a movie containing takes longer than 5-6 minutes.

So what is this discussion about? This topic has no matter for movie making.

May 20, 2012permalink

shaocaholica

Just because a 'cut' is 15 seconds doesn't mean the actual 'take' was 15 seconds. You think that 15 sec shot in a movie started and stopped exactly on those frames? You think the stuff you find on the discovery channel or bbc nature was shot exactly when the animal jumped into action? You need long takes sometimes when you're shooting stuff that isn't under your control. You can't yell 'action' at animals or plants or nature.

May 20, 2012permalink

PeterK70

I share the same opinion with Wolfgang Fieger. I think 30 minutes is more than enough even for interviews because how can one talk nonstop for 30 minutes.
This is the same thing as the light leak problem on Canon 5D Mk III which didn’t hurt any serious photographer except a few snapshooters who have no idea how to take photos.
I once read that longer captures are just for real beginners. And the problem is that most people who find time to comment every topic here are just like that and nothing more.

May 20, 2012*permalink

Benjamin Franzmayr

I'd like to be able to record (or have recorded for me) public talks or lectures that I or others can't attend. I don't want to buy a video camera, I want my digital camera to be able to do that. I'm sure there are other applications.

May 20, 2012permalink

koolbreez

The average take in a movie has nothing to do with the intent of the 30 minute limit, it has to do with the illegal copying of movies inside a theater. Those run a few hours, and that is the recording threat. The average camcorder is low quality for pirating of movies, but the quality of still camera/video recording is superior, to the point of reaching DVD quality, and thus a huge threat to the movie industry. It has nothing to do with the length of a take in making a movie, it is all about recording that movie during its premier showing.

May 20, 2012permalink

Delacosta

@ Wolfgang Fieger,
Google the movie 'Russian Ark', it was filmed in one single take. Brilliantly done.

May 20, 2012permalink

AmaturFotografer

So the entire film was filmed in one 96 minutes take? That must speed up film production process.

May 21, 2012permalink

atlynch

I wanted to use my new 70d to record my wife's choral concerts. Each half is usually over 30 minutes, and there are not always good stopping points. I will have to go back to my dedicated video camera for this purpose. I wish I knew this before I spent over $1500.

Dec 16, 2013*permalink

RRRoger

I use my GH4 mostly for VideoGraphing my Bowling and for recording the Church Service at 1080P 60.
Both are done unattended for 1 hour or more at a time.

The unlimited recording time is why I do not use a Nikon or even the new Sony A7s.
I will be able to get around their limits with a Atomos Shogun or Odyssey 7Q external recorder but that adds $2000 + special media.

If Panasonic imposes a 30 minute limit on the GH5, I will not buy one.

Nov 15, 2014*permalink

T. L. Rutter

I am proposing a 100% Reverse Tax until camera manufacturers use common sense. We DO want to record unlimited footage. We DO want to use our p&s or DSLR as a video camera. Why do you have on your website "Take awesome cinema video ato 1080p?" Why? And then put a limit. So I propose that everybody join me and NOT buy a camera until all of these limitations are removed and the heat issue is resolved. Sony, charge me an extra $100, fine... as long as you don't cripple your hardware to save yourself some money so you can be competitive. Yikes!

May 20, 2012permalink

Robbster (you've obviously been on this for awhile),

What your reference has clarified for me, directly and simply, and which the ambiguous DP item above did not -- and please correct this previously uninformed soul if I am not getting this straight --
is that apparently it is the MANUFACTURERS THEMSELVES (and not the WTO as I initially thought) that are imposing the actual equipment level limits.

And that this is a profit based decision to BOTH avoid the tariffs and/or duties of many countries and the European Union on video cameras,

AND IMPORTANTLY:
in an additional case of classic cynical Corporate greed and opportunism:

The said manufacturers, in order to maximize profits at the expense and cheating of their customers, are intentionally crippling the tech performance of their cameras, to in effect try and force people to have to buy video cameras in addition to their still cams, JUST IN ORDER TO VIDEO LONGER THAN A MERE 30 MINUTES.

Villains:
Tariff countries
Manufacturers

May 20, 2012*permalink

Ben,

As I see it, basically Yes and Yes.

The manufacturers /choose/ to limit video to under that required by tariff conditions to lower their costs, which with enough competition, lowers our costs.

Further, however, some manufacturers are exporting these limits around the world to countries where the same tariff conditions do /not/ exist. This is also a choice, and we can surmise that this choice would have two main drivers 1) to increase sales of video cameras for those manufacturers for whom this is a profitable business with similar or better margins and 2) to further reduce costs by not having to differentiate the cameras based on regional differences.

Here is where our voice to the manufacturers is important. Those who give us what we want will be rewarded in the market place with our spending and with greater loyalty in future purchases.

So, speaking up for what we want is key, to both the tariff authorities, and the manufacturers: no artificial limits on video!

May 20, 2012*permalink

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1018&message=41384752

Hurray! If you don't personally need this fine, BUT, please stop trying to talk for the rest of us who DO need this!

See past posts on this very topic for the various real world scenarios where 30+ minutes recording is needed...

Here is one such thread, I started this in Open Talk...

Go WTO!

May 20, 2012permalink

STOP THE MUSIC !
Just wait a cotton pickin' minute !
And excuuuuse me, and my uninformed naiveté.

But do you mean to tell me, that all this time:
it WASN'T a technological obstacle ?
it WASN'T the fabled over-heating problem ?
it WASN'T a manufacturing cost issue ?

That right from the get-go, the 30 minute still camera video time limitation has been an artificial non-tech intrusion on our simple "we hold these truths to be self-evident" freedom to video whatever the hell we choose to video, for as long as we darn well want to ?!

Imposed by an international body of bureaucratic farts -- because of some
European tariff ????
As far as I'm concerned they're all full of, er, "duty" !

What's next, are we about to learn that all along there's been a tariff limit imposed on high ISO performance ?

Well, dear readers, pardon my PG rated profane outrage, but:

SCREW THE WTO AND THE TARIFF THEY RODE IN ON !

May 20, 2012*permalink

Yeah, Ben, I find it outrageous as well, BUT, I also want it CHANGED for the whole world! See the related thread in Open Talk that I referenced above...

May 20, 2012permalink

You and Me both, Robbster,

I read your reference (thank you) and your well-spoken points and, as you could tell from my "mild" comments above, I could literally not agree with you more !

FREEEEEEEDOM ! NOW !

May 20, 2012*permalink

* Rubbish - the limitation that Panny put on FullHD for their 2012 US models is solely to protect Panny's camcorder product range *

WTO has nothing to do with this, outside of Europe. Here in the USA the Panny P&S cameras have had unlimited AVCHD until now.

This new limitation is purely Panny marketing. And, as a result, I will never again consider a Panny camcorder. I have been using the Canon HF100 and MF41 series up until now, in any case. They are better than the Panny camcorders at low light...

May 19, 2012*permalink

There are several cameras that seamlessly start new files every time a 4 gig file fills. That "concern" is a non-issue.

There really aren't any concerns about cameras overheating, either. Build it for liveview, and the heat producing display and processor pretty much run full time anyway.

May 19, 2012permalink

Mattia Marchi

Which cameras do this? I need a DSLR for filming sit-down interviews.

May 19, 2012permalink

szlevi

Last part is unfortunately not true: Sony's NEX-5 and NEX-7 cameras both automatically shut down after 15-20 minutes of recording due to overheating. If you try to power up and continue recording it will shut down again immediately - you have to wait until it cools down.
Bad design, that is.

May 19, 2012permalink

Mattia, it's mostly P&S that are acquiring this feature, but it is in the later model Panasonics EVILS. Unfortunately, the Canon 1D X is the only DSLR that comes immediately to mind.

Now, I'm normally on the DSLR side of the "you don't need a DSLR, get a camcorder" arguments, but just out of curiosity, why do you "need a DSLR for filming sit-down interviews"?

May 19, 2012permalink

@szlevi, thanks for the warning. NEX7 was on my short list for a "lightweight" interchangeable. I really like the little thing. But if Sony has screwed up the liveview system to the point where sustained use of the camera is difficult, I'll go back to looking at Panasonic.

I did say "build it for liveview", and if Sony didn't do this, well, that's Sony's fault, not any limit of the technology.

May 19, 2012permalink

Alexei G

@Joseph -- Isn't compression the most "costly" operation in video recording, in terms of power used? If so, that would be the difference between liveview and video recording that could be of concern. Not a 30 minute concern though. Any overheating would be evident within a minute or two.

May 19, 2012*permalink

Kodachrome200

@joseph just out of curiosity why are you more intrested in the panasonic rather olympus 4/3rds. I want a compact camera that i can match with some pocket sized lenses and iquite like the olympuses but panasonic was on my list too. definitley 4/3rds for the medium sized sensor

May 20, 2012permalink

ExNewt

As far as NEX (5n anyway) overheat; if you are shooting continuously (say, a speech) - on a tripod - you probably don't need autofocus, image stabilization, auto-lens distortion correction and auto lens chromic aberration correction: shut these off, move the screen away from the body, and you will never have an overheat.

It also helps if you lower video resolution, most speeches (for example) do not need 1080 60 fps.

May 20, 2012permalink

is the heat from the backlit screen? If I was recording a car journey or something that doesn't require the camera to be moved then could I not dim the backlighting?

May 20, 2012permalink

ExNewt

Good point - forgot that one but most of the hear is generated internally in the NEX series, both actual sensor as well as CPU. But dimming the backlight on the screen is more related to battery power.

May 21, 2012permalink

LaFonte

Ok rhetoric aside, one thing I don't understand, why there is actually a higher duty tax for video cameras? What is the purpose of this?

May 19, 2012permalink

It comes from taxing "home video recorders" to make up for the money that movie companies are "losing" from people recording movies off broadcast or cable, or copying video tapes or DVDs. There's only two things wrong with that logic...

1) There is no meaningful way to use a DSLR, P&S camera, camera phone, or even a modern camcorder to pirate movies.

2) Study after study proves that the movie companies are not suffering losses due to end-user piracy, which is a lot different from distribution channel piracy.

May 19, 2012permalink

Josh152

You forgot number three,

Why the @*&$ should the movie makers get to just steal money from people though taxation just because a small percentage of people MIGHT record copyrighted materiel.

Even if it was true that they were losing millions to end user piracy carried out in this manor, it still doesn't give them the right to make uninvolved parties pay for it through taxation. I guess this is what happens when an industry has enough money to buy the laws they want.

May 19, 2012permalink

josh, ... "An industry"? In this corporatocracy, most of our tax dollars go toward supporting the wishes of industry. And they don't need to buy laws any more - they already own all the lawmakers. Just saying...

May 19, 2012*permalink

ExNewt

No industry is really "losing millions from piracy" - if they were it would be (US anyway) listed in their SEC filings. No one does, so the "loss" is either imagined or good businessspeak.

May 20, 2012permalink

Thanatham Piriyakarnjanakul

It wouldn't be subtle to take a DSLR like the Canon 5D mkII into a cinema to record the movie.
Would I sell enough to make up the cost?
In the past, colour reproduction devices had to pass treasury regulations about copying money, but it doesn't seem to be a problem now.
My thought is that there is a different tax regime for video cameras and it is not a money grab by all manufacturers.

May 20, 2012permalink

Roland Karlsson

This is what you get with specific custom rules and specific tax rules. You got a bizarre and surrealistic world. If you have extra tax on movie cameras, then you have to define a movie camera. And then this 30 minute rule is there. At first ir seems a non issue as the small flash cards could not contain 30 minutes anyhow. But now you can buy 64 GB flash cards.

May 19, 2012permalink

Who care about the timing, look how 1D X managed it.

If file is too big you will be pain a lot, small file is better.

May 19, 2012permalink

boothrp

So why doesn't my Olympus C770uz cut out after 30 minutes ??

May 19, 2012permalink

Revenant

That camera was marketed as a stills/camcorder cross-over, and without the 30 minute limit it probably were classified as a video camera. In other words, you did pay the import duty for video cameras, at least if you live in Europe.

May 19, 2012permalink

keysmith

I think because C770 does not optically zoom while videoing (when sound is on, It only zooms when sound is off). So it is NOT considered videocamera. Another reason i think is the resolution. To be considered videocamera it has to has resolution biger than.. something (biger than VGA) and to optically ZOOM while videoing. Only then tax is applied. Ridiculous.

May 19, 2012permalink

keysmith, actually, neither of those criteria apply. Revenant got it right, it "is" a video recorder.

The tax folk don't care if it zooms, because the tariff was passed originally to make people pay for copying movies and TV shows.

May 19, 2012permalink

Ben O Connor

Interesting, seems like there won´t be any cathegory for "family camcorders - intermediate camcorders" anymore ! Camcorders would remain at tv studios and in pro´s hands on field. Some wedding foto/videographers also should invest more for their video equipments in future...

Exciting also, Existing sensors on the micro fourthird cam´s are bigger than camcorders between 200-1500 dollaras/euros ! So for consumer base its just good news !

May 19, 2012permalink

itsastickup

In the long run I would expect the duty to be applied to cameras also. This is a naive view of taxman behaviour. This is a bad move that is likely to cost us.

May 19, 2012permalink

They would need a "new" tax. The tax on video recording equipment was a "reverse Robin Hood" tax, it was to take money from people who recorded movies off broadcast or cable, or copied video tapes or DVDs, and give that money to the "wronged" movie production and distribution companies.

Since you can't do this with a DSLR, P&S, Flip style recorder, cell phone, etc. they'd need a new reason for the tax. Actually, you can't really do it with a modern camcorder, either.

So, if you happen to have any idea for a good justification as to why DSLRs, P&S cameras, and cell phones are costing "innocent" European corporations billions of dollars of honest profits, I'm sure that there's people high up in the EU who would love to hear. That new French guy, for example...

I know, a tax to recover the money that municipalities are going to lose in police misconduct cases because there happened to be someone there with a camera...

I scare myself, sometimes.

May 19, 2012permalink

Don't worry Joseph, you'll never be able to come up with anything as bizarre as those dedicated corporate controlled tax bean-counters. More likely cameras will eventually be counted as 'terrorist weapons' or something, 'for official use only'.

May 19, 2012permalink

strange that it's a European tax which affects me in Australia. And it's based on an assumption that we will record movies in cinemas.
Last I heard, original movies are leaked days before release and would be a better quality than a crude cinema recording with the heads of cinema patrons on the bottom.

May 20, 2012permalink

mick232

The solution would be easy, even without WTO doing anything.

Sell the camera with a 30-minute limit and make available an updated firmware that removes the limit.

"Making available" can be anything from an official download to accidentally "leaking" the firmware.

May 19, 2012permalink

Not "easy", at all.

Official downloads that negate customs and tariff restrictions have been proved illegal in several cases, including cases pertaining to scanners and cell phones.

Even charges that the "leak" was "too convenient" could endanger a company.

May 19, 2012permalink

'The devil made me do it'. That would be the answer from the corporation that leaked the ability to enable functionality that should be there by design, leaked by them only to bring proof that it is 'illegal', thus 'tying their hands' so they can never release iit again.

May 19, 2012permalink

peevee1

Do you mean just like Panasonic does with some Russian hackers "hacking" their m43 cameras? ;)

May 20, 2012permalink

Does the law affect me in Australia? There's probably some agreement somewhere.
Could I elect to pay this tax and get an authorised firmware update?
Might affect resale possibilities.

May 20, 2012permalink

Archiver

@Daryl Cheshire - we have no such tax on 'video recorders' in Australia, AFAIK. The tax is for the EU, and for a number of years digital cameras bound for non-EU countries had unlimited recording time, whereas those same cameras in the EU were limited to 29m59s.

Now this is a self-imposed restriction to avoid hitting their camcorder lines. There is no way to pay some tax and get a firmware update, unless you consider the price of a new dedicated camcorder 'tax'.

May 22, 2012permalink

Klipsen

Just add the duty and tell customers it's the price they must pay to have video in their SLRs - whether they want it or not.

In any case, how often do you really record more than 30 minutes in one take?

And if you do, wouldn't a dedicated camcorder be a better choice?

May 19, 2012permalink

Recording a concert or live performance? Film-making isn't the only use for video DSLRs.

May 19, 2012permalink

Klipsen

For a concert or a live performance, don't you think a camcorder is a better choice?

May 19, 2012permalink

And if it were to be used for pirating commercial video, this 30 minute limit would certainly baffle anyone who wanted to press the pause button while they restarted the next 30 minute segment, right?

May 19, 2012permalink

th0rmj

No, I have interchangeble lenses and filters for the u4/3 Olympus camera. You don't get ND compensation or interchangeable lenses until you get high $ camcorders, and until you get over $2k, you don't get the large sensor of DSLR's, which enable shallow-dof-shots (singer in focus, others out).

May 28, 2012permalink

LensBeginner

I can look at my photos as long as I want.
I never looked at a picture for more than 5 minutes in a row, however... :)))

May 19, 2012permalink

Donald Lam

Digicams are not designed to be a dedicated camcorder. The small battery will be hard pressed to record for more than 30 minutes. Heat sinking of the sensor and electronics is another issue.

May 19, 2012permalink

oysso

regardless of that . The limit is artificial. As technology progresses the ability to record long videos will only be more widespread.

May 19, 2012permalink

Rubbish, I've recorded continuously on my hacked GH1 for hours with no problems.

May 19, 2012permalink

bluelemmy

>Rubbish, I've recorded continuously on my hacked GH1 for hours with no problems.

Ditto with my hacked GH2. I can also plug mine into the mains and get over 5hrs continuous AVCHD with a 32gb card.
The hack is simplicity itself to apply and can be removed any time.

May 19, 2012permalink

My LX5 records AVCHD for over two hours. I use it to record sessions at conferences and lectures. Currently limited to 720p, of course.

May 19, 2012permalink

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.

The reason digital cameras have such unusual shapes, including the common "clamp onto" the charger design, instead of sliding into it, is that they ARE camcorder batteries.

"Heat sinking" [sic] of the sensor is not an issue, at all. P&S cameras, cell phones, etc. run their electronics hard, providing full time liveview. DSLRs get bigger surface areas to dissipate even more heat.

May 19, 2012permalink

LeonTheremin

Lectures and Interviews. I film lectures that are consistently longer than 30 minutes. But I got an XA10 because it has no time limit and has XLR inputs to hook up to a sound board or lav mics.

It would be so awesome if Canon came out with a Mark IV that shot AVCHD, had balanced 3.5mm mic jacks with phantom that would plug into mics with a 3.5mm balanced male to female XLR wire.

The only problem with AVCHD is that all the DSLR movie people don't realize you have to import it in your system with a utility, similar to logging and transferring a tape. They always say "what are all these .mts files?"

Archiving AVCHD is awesome too, just make a fat 32 .dmg the same size as the "private" folder on your card, drop the "private" folder in there and mount it whenever you want to log and transfer footage off of it.

May 19, 2012permalink

Daniel from Bavaria

Ha! They will do it the other way arround. 5,4 Percent Tax on every Still/Movie device.
Problem solved and more money to ripp off.

;) my bed

May 19, 2012permalink

Debankur Mukherjee

30 Minutes and above in one shot is only required if you record any Concert Performance otherwise very few people need more then 30 minutes in one shot....

May 19, 2012permalink

th0rmj

Or any other live performance. Yelling "Hold" during a Kid's play will make you hunted. I solved it by using 6 cameras (www.pointsofvideo.com), but it's annoying running around and making sure the cameras are all recording.

May 28, 2012permalink

wlad

If you need to record more than 30 minutes in one shot, you're probably doing something wrong :P

May 19, 2012permalink

micahmedia

Yes, people are taking too long getting married these days.

May 19, 2012permalink

wlad

so the take a 30 minutes long shot from the same boring angle...

May 19, 2012permalink

Roberto Mettifogo

no guys, event videography with multicams requires no limits in rec time. People who go and film a ballet for 2 hours with 4/5 dslr always need to walk around the teathre to restart the recording, and they choose to use dslr instead of videocameras because of the better results.

May 19, 2012permalink

"If you need to record more than 30 minutes in one shot, you're probably doing something wrong :P"

Ever heard of filming lectures? If you are the lecturer himself (just like me, who also film my lectures), it's a nuisance to always check and restart recorrding...

May 19, 2012permalink

K_Photo_Teach

Could existin camera record more with a firmware patch ?

May 19, 2012permalink

Digitall

Yes, if they do a patch for this. But then there is the question of sensor temperature limit. But I believe that many cameras can go to more of 30 minutes after patch.

May 19, 2012permalink

Unfortunately, not always. For example, you can't just flash a US firmware to European Panasonic cameras. (A camera manufacturr that does diffeerentiate based upon the target country.) Other manufaturers (Nikon, Canon, Oly etc.) are even worse as they, in general, don't allow for longer recordings in their US models either and this restriction can't b removed by simply hacking the camera, reflashng the firmware etc.

May 19, 2012permalink

Usually only through hacking (like the "GH13" hack for the GH1)

May 19, 2012permalink

Speaking of hacks, are there any useful hacks for my G3? There's already no video time limit on mine, but other issues?

May 19, 2012permalink

Bernard909

This limitation apply in Europe (maybe not only) where some local companies (now dead ?) thought it was clever to protect their product lines from the asiatic ones (that was long time ago)
It's good news for those who want to capture long events (sports, theater, dance etc.) and use multicam in editing (now affordable).

May 19, 2012permalink

DioCanon

which European companies???

long time ago what you mean???

DSLR have video only since 3/4 years ago...

May 19, 2012permalink

micahmedia

...but stills cameras have had video for quite a while. See: P&S cams

May 19, 2012permalink

Atlas Junior

Yes, that's true! But it wasn't for DSLR or digital compacts that did not even exist... It was simply for "video recorders", that means every device that is able to record a video. At that time (1988 I think) mainly VCR and cassette camcorders

May 19, 2012permalink

Bernard909

Thomson and Phillips lobby....

May 19, 2012permalink

"DSLR have video only since 3/4 years ago..."

Wrong. Most DSLR models since 2009 have had video recording.

May 19, 2012permalink

Messelsyys, what year is it now that's more than 3 years later than 2009? :)

May 19, 2012permalink

jon404

WTO?

WTF!

May 19, 2012permalink

lancespring

It is time for the discrimination against video to end! Free the Camcorders!!

May 19, 2012permalink

Biowizard

Wow - at last we will be able to do feature films where each shot lasts more than 40% of the overall film, rather than the more normal 5-30 seconds per shot that any decent film uses. Woop. And without paying a special tax. Double Woop.

Maybe now, some day, I'll actually try shooting my first video fragment. Or, maybe, not. I still prefer decent stills.

Brian

May 19, 2012permalink

ENicolas

Not everyone uses video to make feature films. I've attended meetings that were recorded, and the person running the camera would have to keep re-starting the camera.

Still the file-size limit is going to keep the time down.

May 19, 2012permalink

"Still the file-size limit is going to keep the time down."

Not necessarily. You can always use file spanning, as do or example Panasonic.

May 19, 2012permalink

Biowizard

I can't imagine that recording a "meeting" requires a full=frame DSLR in 1080p video mode. Surely a simple tethered 2Mpx webcam is all you'd need for that?

Brian

May 20, 2012permalink

dholl

I personally need more than 30 minutes continuous filming because i record myself demoing synthesizers....previously i've had to use cheapo camcorders...

but then again, like the article reminded us, we still have the issue of FAT32 and hot sensors.

May 19, 2012permalink

Oops. Did that 1.5 hour video I took of a hummingbird feeder the other day with my Panasonic DMC-G3 burn up my sensor? Never thought of it. Still seems to work ok, but I did notice the camera was quite warm when I came back and turned it off. What I got wasn't worth it if it damaged the camera.

May 19, 2012permalink

Nishi Drew

Wait, still using FAT32 ??

May 19, 2012permalink

"Wait, still using FAT32 ??"

Yup, memory cars still use FAT32.

Nevertheless, it's not a problem. Just use file spanning, as is done by several sports cameras and all Panasonic cameras.

May 19, 2012permalink

@CC, your camera is fine. It's smart enough to shut down if the camera overheats.

The heat doesn't actually come from the sensor, anyway: it's mostly produced by the display and the processor.

May 19, 2012permalink

Whew! And thanks for the assurance. (Not that I care all that much - it's a lot of fun, but it's just a few hundred grams of plastic, after all).

May 19, 2012permalink

I guess it doesn't apply to Canada.

Anyhow, I have taken lots of videos longer than 30 minutes. How about filming a talk or presentation that lasts longer than 30 min? Or how about filming an event that 'might' happen, like a bird coming to nest, etc.?

You can find the few minutes or seconds that you want, and discard the rest. But it would be a nuisance if you couldn't even film it from a tripod, without being there to restart the camera.

May 18, 2012permalink

Patco

"I guess it doesn't apply to Canada."
I don't know about other makers, but from DMC-G3 review, it appears at least Panasonic applies this limitation only in Europe:
"Running time - Up to 2GB for Motion JPEG, up to capacity of card for AVCHD (Limited to 29 minutes on models sold in Europe)."

May 19, 2012permalink

Jogger

ive never had to, or wanted to record anything longer than 30mins

May 18, 2012permalink

CameraLabTester

I can't think of any famous Hollywood movie having a 30 minute single raw take...

... or any digital DSLR movie for that matter.

(unless you're filming growing grass...)

There may be, out there... possible.

May 18, 2012permalink

Kodachrome200

i think this would be more useful for filming a presentation or something not that you would want to use a dslr for that anyway

May 19, 2012permalink

GodSpeaks

Try recording an event, a meeting or anything that might take place beyond a time span of 30 minutes.

I do this all the time and the 30 minute limit is an issue for me. Fortunately, the Panasonic micro43 cameras do not have this limit (except maybe in the EU).

So just because you do not need a featute, does not mean no one needs it.

May 19, 2012permalink

RPJG

What GodSpeaks says... the number of people who come on here and complain because they don't personally want some feature is incredible.

Anyway, to answer CameraLab Tester - it's not a "famous Hollywood" movie, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ark.

May 19, 2012permalink

zhir

And this famous hollywood movie, too :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_(film)

May 19, 2012permalink

"i think this would be more useful for filming a presentation or something not that you would want to use a dslr for that anyway"

Absolutely wrong. DSLR's have, in general, better resolution and MUCH wider FoV than similarly-priced (that is, strictly con/prosumer - we're talking sub-$2000 here!) camcorders and are, consequently, much better at recording lectures where resolution really counts. This is why I, for example, strictly use DSLR's and P&S cameras to video my lectures and not camcorders.

May 19, 2012permalink

bluelemmy

The lack of imagination of some people is astonishing. There are many, many reasons why people would require >30min recording times.
I have just cycled part of the the Olympic cycle race route, for example. I film from a chest bracket mounted camera. Such a video requires continuous shooting for more than 30 mins.

May 19, 2012permalink

D1N0

too bad the 4gb file size cap on fat 32 is a bigger problem for my camera. It only takes about 5 minutes to fill that

May 18, 2012permalink

Not always a problem, for example AVCHD automatically spans across multiple files

May 18, 2012permalink

GodSpeaks

Exactly.

May 19, 2012permalink

zhir

Also, the fat64 format exists.
It's called "exFAT" now.

May 19, 2012permalink

JaFO

There are plenty of alternate filesystems (like NTFS as used by Windows) that have solved that bit ages ago.
The real question is why companies are still using FAT32 for a device that can store more than a few gigabytes ...

May 19, 2012permalink

ybizzle

While nice to hear, pros just shoot hundreds of tiny clips and join them together in post. This is great news though for those 2hr long, single clip family vacation videos... ;)

May 18, 2012permalink

Or if you're recording a live performance or event for example, there are more types of professional video shooting than just film making

May 18, 2012permalink

ybizzle

Ah, forgot about those!

May 19, 2012permalink

lancespring

"This is great news though for those 2hr long, single clip family vacation videos"

Actually, this is great news for folks who buy camcorders, as it would remove the 5.4% tariff that is currently put on them. Those are the people that will benefit the most.

May 19, 2012permalink

abortabort

Hahaha I love how everyone likes to infer what 'Pros' do. Try recording an interview with this stupid 30 minute limit, or worse the 12minute limit on a lot of Canons (not a tax issues though).

May 19, 2012permalink

Timmie

Though I agree the limitation and the reason behind it is somewhat silly, I was wondering if there are actually people who run into this as a practical limitation?

I prefer stills but whenever I do shoot video I get nowhere near 30 mins a shot. I can't remember any feature films that have 30 min scenes in them either. Anybody out there want more than 30 mins?

May 18, 2012*permalink