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DxOMark tests Canon EOS 70D Dual Pixel AF against the Sony SLT-A77

By dpreview staff on Sep 18, 2013 at 11:34 GMT
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DxOMark has tested the Canon EOS 70D's live view autofocus system in comparison to the Sony SLT-A77, looking at focus speeds and accuracy in both movie and stills modes. The two cameras offer an intriguing contrast in technologies; the 70D uses Canon's latest 'Dual Pixel AF' on-sensor phase detection, while the A77 employs a separate phase detection AF sensor which receives light via a semi-transparent mirror. Click the link below to see how the two cameras fare in DxOMark's head-to-head testing. 

As always, it's best to take such tests as useful data points that tell part of the story, rather than a definitive final word. DxOMark used the Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM on the EOS 70D and the Sony DT 16-50mm f/2.8 OSS SSM on the A-77, which employ very different autofocus systems. The former focuses by moving the whole optical unit back-and-forwards with a linear stepper motor, and we remarked on its slightly pedestrian AF speeds in our recent review. Meanwhile the Sony lens uses an ultrasonic-type motor to drive an internal focus element, which is normally a speedier solution. It's also worth bearing in mind that Canon specifically says it gears the focusing speed down during movie recording to achieve smooth transitions between subjects, as rapid focus jumps can be disconcerting for the viewer.  

DxOMark has also completed its three-part article with lens recommendations for the EOS 70D, covering fully 130 options from both Canon itself, and third-party lens makes such as Sigma, Tamron, Tokina and Samyang. Other tests published last week include a sensor review of Pentax's budget K-500 SLR, and reviews of two of Canon's EF-M lenses for its mirrorless EOS M. Click the links below for more:


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Comments

Total comments: 154
lancespring
By lancespring (7 months ago)

I played with the new Canon 70D at our local COSTCO store, and I certainly was not impressed with its autofocus performance. In switching to different subjects at much different distances in the store's indoor lighting, I could see nothing "revolutionary" about its speed.

It definitely appeared to be slower in response than my Panasonic GH3.

If you are a Canon user, I guess that one will get a different impression. Perhaps then you will think that the 70D is a big deal. I think that too many camera reviewers bought into reporting all of Canon's marketing hype about the 70D, instead of taking a close scrutiny as to just how well it actually performs in comparison to technology from other brands.

9 upvotes
Marvol
By Marvol (7 months ago)

Seriously though, an asymmetric target moved around by hand by a bloke, so that at hardly any time the cameras have the same target to focus on?

Would it really be so difficult to print a specific symmetric sheet of paper (estimated cost 2 cent) and put it on a wire with a pulley? Or to put the cameras on a dolly?

The main conclusion from this test is "DXO doesn't do focusing tests very well at all"

1 upvote
Marvol
By Marvol (7 months ago)

Ah, never mind that remark, I missed the details of the test setup. So the 'asymmetric target' doesn't apply. My bad!

0 upvotes
keeponkeepingon
By keeponkeepingon (7 months ago)

Gosh their testing methodology for the video AF is absolutely horrible.

I'm talking about the test where someone holds a memo and walks away from the camera. The guy is moving back and forth so often the camera has no text to focus on.

I'm not sure how they can draw any conclusion from that sort of test.

2 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

That's true only for tracking AF test. Everything else seems to be fine.

0 upvotes
tbcass
By tbcass (2 weeks ago)

Let me guess, you're a Canon fan boy and don't like their conclusions.

0 upvotes
Daxs
By Daxs (7 months ago)

If you don't know how to take nice pictures, no matter what kinda camera you have! You can get best camera in the world, if you don't learn and you don't know how to take pictures no ones cares what kinda camera you have!

5 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

So let's all shoot with iPhone!

7 upvotes
Jun2
By Jun2 (7 months ago)

The problem of A77 is that it doesn't have full manual control in video mode and f/3.5 restriction, regardless tracking ability. I would like to see GH3/70D comparison, with better setup than shown in the DXO article.

Comment edited 26 seconds after posting
1 upvote
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

It does offer full manual control in video, only you have to turn off AF.

4 upvotes
Eleson
By Eleson (7 months ago)

"It does offer full manual control in video, only you have to turn off AF."
Makes sense if you wan't full manual control! :D

2 upvotes
Jun2
By Jun2 (7 months ago)

Anyway, people rarely use A77 for serious video or film work. Most common ones are 5D III and GH3 for low budget shooters, also Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera.

0 upvotes
steelhead3
By steelhead3 (7 months ago)

Don't worry Canon fans DP will give a gold against the silver won by the sony 77 (silver also won by that crummy P&S rx100).

11 upvotes
onlooker
By onlooker (7 months ago)

GPW wrote: "Sony wins, Canon sucks"

And yet, Canon is going to make a killing on 70D, and Sony is quietly bailing out on their SLT line.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
4 upvotes
justmeMN
By justmeMN (7 months ago)

Canon estimates that they are going to sell 9 million DSLRs this year. I wonder how many SLTs Sony has sold.

0 upvotes
riveredger
By riveredger (7 months ago)

If I worked for Canon or invested in Canon then that would be impressive. However, I am a consumer and prefer the better product :-)

8 upvotes
Eleson
By Eleson (7 months ago)

@onlooker,
Let's assume that you agree on what GPW says regarding this test.
Which camera would you recommend to a friend who wants a DSLR to film video alot?

2 upvotes
tbcass
By tbcass (2 weeks ago)

One thing I have noticed is that the best selling product is rarely the best product.

0 upvotes
fatdeeman
By fatdeeman (7 months ago)

I don't understand the point of this comparison, they are different cameras. The Canon has both on sensor pdaf and traditional pdaf whereas the Sony only has the latter. Also the 70d is the very first example of the technology it demonstrates so on that basis I would consider it to be highly impressive for a first try.

Both fantastic cameras but if anything known for employing totally incomparable technologies

4 upvotes
GPW
By GPW (7 months ago)

Sony wins, Canon sucks, Nikon is KING, GET over it people

4 upvotes
AbrasiveReducer
By AbrasiveReducer (7 months ago)

We're over it. And king of what?

3 upvotes
Zerg2905
By Zerg2905 (7 months ago)

Of Leon.

1 upvote
Keith Reeder
By Keith Reeder (7 months ago)

"And king of what?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Wishful_Thinking

2 upvotes
Dave Luttmann
By Dave Luttmann (7 months ago)

If by win, you mean they are better image quality via resolution and dynamic range when compared to Canon, then yes, you are correct. In fact, in terms of dynamic range, Canon is the worst out there. In terms of resolution, they arent a leader either. So yes, looks like Nikon is king of image quality

0 upvotes
Zerg2905
By Zerg2905 (7 months ago)

Nikon has no sensor available, so it cannot be "King" of IQ or DR. Very good AF, yes, maybe, debatable. So it is 0 vs 1, where 1 is obviously Canon that is manufacturing all the parts. Cheers! :)

0 upvotes
Tone Row
By Tone Row (7 months ago)

LOL, love the people who are coming on here saying Sony is dead based on a comparison of a 2 year old A77 with kit lens against a brand spanking new Canon 70D with a prime.

Also gotta love DxOMark calling out the A77's inability to focus on an object that was closer than the MFD of the lens as a "mistake". Classy DxOMark, very classy indeed.

13 upvotes
Keith Reeder
By Keith Reeder (7 months ago)

"love the people who are coming on here saying Sony is dead "

Actually, they're saying Sony is dead based on their share price...

0 upvotes
igor_s
By igor_s (7 months ago)

Keith, don't you think that the share prices depend heavily on "test" results like those at DxOMark? Sure, just business)).

BTW, what DPR are waiting for with their review? Still not ready (such a revolutionary thing that they don't know how to test and describe it::::), or don't want to impair the sales?

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
ianimal
By ianimal (7 months ago)

Ain't the Sony SLT auto-focus limited to only f/3.5 aperture? And the Canon can in theory use any aperture? I just asking, don't blame me :)

0 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

Limited to the largest aperture but no larger than f/3.5. So with a f/5.6 lens it'll be ...just that.

0 upvotes
ianimal
By ianimal (7 months ago)

Ok as I have read before. If you got a f/1.4 lens it can maybe be what you need to use it at f/1.4. So maybe the Canon auto-focus has an avantage vs. SLT in this situation. I hope Sony comes up with something good for the next generation sensor, e.g for the much rumored FF NEX9 etc.

1 upvote
EinsteinsGhost
By EinsteinsGhost (7 months ago)

Likely a choice made as a compromise between AF accuracy and light gathering. Continuous AF may be better optimized at these apertures.

I personally prefer MF for video.

0 upvotes
ET2
By ET2 (7 months ago)

"Sony SLT auto-focus limited to only f/3.5 aperture?"

In video mode. This doesn't apply to liveview still shooting

4 upvotes
thebustos
By thebustos (7 months ago)

The f/3.5 thing is only for video AF and CAP-AE. Regular AF works with any aperture.

2 upvotes
peevee1
By peevee1 (7 months ago)

Regular AF always works at the largest aperture, closing it just for the shot.

1 upvote
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

You can control aperture in video if you turn off the AF.

0 upvotes
Eleson
By Eleson (7 months ago)

Read Troys answer...
if you use AF, the most open aperture will be 3.5,
or what the lens can do. for example 5.6.
Beyond that, use MF and focus highlighting.

0 upvotes
Zerg2905
By Zerg2905 (7 months ago)

Each and every time "DxO" is mentioned: "Nein! Nein! Nein! Nein!" Cheers! :) P. S.: no relevant comparative study can be done in this World as long as the comparators are in different classes. It's like saying that in elevated BP Ca++ channel blockers are better or worse vs ACEis... Bollocks.

0 upvotes
Eleson
By Eleson (7 months ago)

I kind of expected more from the shutter lag test. Better time rez than 1/10th, a bit more info on the set up. Does Sony use Electronic First Curtain for instance? In general, the setups would have been great to see for repeatable tests.
AF mode etc.
Also, I would like to see the result of the roller shutter test...

0 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

"Does Sony use Electronic First Curtain for instance?"

Yes.

6 upvotes
Eleson
By Eleson (7 months ago)

Should I give up on getting an answer from dpreview on this:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/9/3/dxomark-tests-canon-eos-70d-sensor-and-lenses?comment=9520241557

Or was this test the answer? In that case -Thanks!
I really appreciate how seriously you have tried to come back on this question.

0 upvotes
zigi_S
By zigi_S (7 months ago)

To all you sony fanboys out there. SLT isn't the same tech as on sensor pdaf. SLT still has a mirror! And it's nothing new. The SLT concept is old and only a desperate manufacturer like SONY would try to market it like inovation. It will be funny when mew canon M models will AF much better than the NEX system. Where will be the new tech from sony then? Sony's on sensor PDAF is inferior to CANON's. It loses light!

3 upvotes
rsf3127
By rsf3127 (7 months ago)

I´d like to print and frame your comment and put it on the wall as an example of short sightness.
Do you honestly believe that Sony won't come up with something better than the Canon on-sensor AF over the next months?

6 upvotes
zigi_S
By zigi_S (7 months ago)

It doesn't matter if it will. For now Canon's AF adaptation is superior to Sony's. What will come in the future, who knows. But SLT isn't the same tech as PDAF on sensor because it isn't on THE SENSOR! And the olympus em1 solution is inferior to canon's 70D solution because it loses pixel information. So saying that sony's tech is more advanced is laughable. It's not Canon that has to catch up, but Sony. Canon lags only in shadow noise. That's about it.

3 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

Aha, so Canon has live view as fast as Sony.

Oh wait. ;-)
Only a factor 4 difference in "shooting lag" according to the DXO test....
That's the best both companies have available, regardless of implementation.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
steelhead3
By steelhead3 (7 months ago)

Don't forget the a99 is a slt and has on sensor pdaf and is faster than the 77 in acquiring and keeping focus.

3 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

According to Imaging Resource tests, the A99 isn't faster, but I have no doubt that the extra PDAF on sensor that provides a depth map, will help a lot with tracking and accuracy.

Comment edited 8 minutes after posting
5 upvotes
hippo84
By hippo84 (7 months ago)

I have both A77 and A99. A99 in AF-D is faster and more accurate. Besides this A99 has AF-Range, which helps to reduce time needed for focusing.

3 upvotes
Promit
By Promit (7 months ago)

This is what a fanboy looks like, kids. Don't feed the trolls.

0 upvotes
RandyPD
By RandyPD (7 months ago)

The A77 is a much older camera and on sensor PDAF has been implemented on the A99 (more as a supplement to the regular AF system). The A99 is also older than the Canon 70D.

2 upvotes
peevee1
By peevee1 (7 months ago)

Sonny had OSPDAF a year ago when it announced NEX-5r/6. In the recently announced Olympus E-M1 you can see the second generation of their tech. In principle of sensor operation, it still worse than Dual Pixel PDAF (only 1/16 of pixel collect depth information, and the light information from these pixels is discarded). But the current Canon's processor in 70D apparently cannot make sense of this information quickly enough.

0 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

A77 got old AF algorythms - that's why A99 is faster. Sony said that they will bring the A99 soft into A77 with firmware update, but ever since - no FW was released.
On-sensor PDAF in A99 is used only as an assist allowing AF-D mode. It doesn't have anything to deal with AF speed.

0 upvotes
Benarm
By Benarm (7 months ago)

It was pretty obvious at launch that the Canon's Dual Pixel AF was "revolutionary" only for other Canon DSLRs, but not against Sony's dedicated SLT and probably some mirrorless cameras. A more interesting and apples-to-apples comparison would be when Sony finally drops the SLT tech for full-time on-sensor phase detection in their next generation A-mount cameras. Anyway, the writing is on the wall, sooner or later, mirror flipping will be obsolete like a rotary phone.

15 upvotes
thx1138
By thx1138 (7 months ago)

Sony's SLT is nothing but pellicle mirror revisited 20 years later. Hardly innovative and hardly their idea and it hardly saved the A77 from having woeful IQ above ISO 400. Yeah if you can use ISO 100-200 it's a nice camera.

0 upvotes
new boyz
By new boyz (7 months ago)

"Sony's SLT is nothing but pellicle mirror revisited 20 years later."

Actually they are quite different. Canon used pellicle mirror to divert 30% light to the viewfinder, while in Sony SLT the light goes to focusing module. Viewing is done by taking image feed directly from sensor.

0 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

That's not the only difference - Sony's SLT is made from different materials got got different coatings. Also, unlike in Canon, it's interchangeable.

thx1138 - A77 can easily be used up to ISO1600. It's got pretty much the same noise as NEX7 -1/3EV.
So it's rather decent, especially if you compare it with Canon alternatives. Even more so if you realize that A77 got 2 EV more dynamic range than Canon 7D.

3 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (7 months ago)

for video, Canon intentionally slowed down the AF speed for smoother, more "natural" focus.

2 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

As did Sony.
I remember how someone found a glitch to get full speed AF on SLT's during video too.

Comment edited 34 seconds after posting
5 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (7 months ago)

then the difference of AF speeds only means different tastes.

Comment edited 20 seconds after posting
1 upvote
ianimal
By ianimal (7 months ago)

I agree. And what the test should focus on is difference in focus tracking (not speed so much). But, it looks like both is good enough for my kind of use. That is primary tracking moving mountains (landscape shooting) :)

0 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

I agree that the focus (no pun intended) on speed in general is misleading. Irregular hunting and hesitation to start (re)focusing, that's more interesting (read: more objectional for video).

The lagtest for live view focusing was the more interesting bit imho.

Comment edited 25 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
riveredger
By riveredger (7 months ago)

The A77 has a menu option to set the AF speed to slow. This supposedly reduces any hunting and helps with critical focus. I haven't tried the setting for stills or video, but perhaps it would help the A77 beat up even more on the new Canon :-)

1 upvote
jkokich
By jkokich (7 months ago)

So, Canon comes up with a system that can compete with two year old Sony tech? Seems like a win for Sony.

11 upvotes
thx1138
By thx1138 (7 months ago)

So Sony reuses pellicle mirror tech from 20 years ago, seems like a win for Canon.

2 upvotes
hippo84
By hippo84 (7 months ago)

Canon wasn't able to make pellicle mirror usable. Sony does it.

3 upvotes
AbrasiveReducer
By AbrasiveReducer (7 months ago)

Let's get one thing clear...if the DxO tests conclude that your favorite brand delivers superb sharpness and contrast, they are obviously spot on. If DxO does their test and your perfectly good lens gets a low score, DxO is a bunch of haters and a big fail.

8 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (7 months ago)

How...how did you know what I was thinking...?

0 upvotes
Suave
By Suave (7 months ago)

Doesn't Sony have a 18-55 lens similar to Canon's kit lens?

0 upvotes
hippo84
By hippo84 (7 months ago)

Yes, it does, but Sony has 2 kit lens. 18-55 doesn't have silent motor. 16-50 SSM is a kit lens special for video. Comparing 40/2.8 and 18-55/3.5-5.6 would be not very fair, wouldn't it?

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
1 upvote
EinsteinsGhost
By EinsteinsGhost (7 months ago)

Sony 16-50mm f/2.8 SSM is the kit lens for A77.

3 upvotes
tkbslc
By tkbslc (7 months ago)

That's like calling the 24-105L a kit lens. Sure, technically it is. But it's certainly not anything like the typical $100 f3.5-5.6 plastic special.

Next you guys are going to tell me that the Hasselblad 80mm f2.8 is a kit lens because I can buy it bundled with the h5D-60 for $43K.

0 upvotes
thebustos
By thebustos (7 months ago)

It isn't a straight comparison because they have different crop factors anyway. Canon x1.6 and Sony or Nikon x1.5. The longer the focal length, the bigger the difference...

0 upvotes
EinsteinsGhost
By EinsteinsGhost (7 months ago)

"That's like calling the 24-105L a kit lens."

Except that A77 was offered only with 16-50/2.8 SSM as the kit lens. A65 was matched to 18-55/3.5-5.6 SAM.

4 upvotes
thebustos
By thebustos (7 months ago)

The difference is that "kit lenses" are usually beginner type lenses. The 16-50mm f/2.8 is essentially a G-series lens designed for APS-C coverage. The A77 can come with the 16-50mm f/2.8 or the 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6...

0 upvotes
ManuelVilardeMacedo
By ManuelVilardeMacedo (7 months ago)

One day Canon fanboys will grow up and realize every less-than-glowing review of their beloved cameras is not part of a conspiracy against Canon.
Reading the comments below, it looks like that day isn't forthcoming...

15 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (7 months ago)

Who cares! Nicon is the best! :-D

1 upvote
tkbslc
By tkbslc (7 months ago)

It's pretty clear that DxoMark hates Canon.

1 upvote
hippo84
By hippo84 (7 months ago)

Did they broke that 70D? Didn't they just shoot video, so everyone could decide, which camera is better?

6 upvotes
ProfHankD
By ProfHankD (7 months ago)

No, it's pretty clear that Canon is technologically behind Sony in most aspects of cameras involving electronics. One can argue it's deliberate -- because Canon, as the market leader, has a good reason to be ultra conservative. However, the truth is Sony deserves a lot of credit for trying new things (Sony, Pentax, and Fuji are all much more innovative than Canon and Nikon). Sony also deserves credit for being smart enough to follow-through when they hit upon a promising new technology.

The real thing to complain about here is that we know Sony is phasing-out SLT for something better, so it's a little strange to be testing against several-year-old Sony technology -- and very sad that Canon did so poorly against it.

Incidentally, there is a "game changingly different" way the 70D sensor might be used. I contacted Canon about it, and they said no support planned. I may be able to hack it into ML, but Canon is blowing yet another a huge opportunity here....

11 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (7 months ago)

fast AF speed in video does not necessarily mean good.

1 upvote
hippo84
By hippo84 (7 months ago)

In menu You can choose AF speed, FAST for stills and ACCURATE for video. And don't forget, Sony has fast AF not only in video, but in LiveView too.

3 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (7 months ago)

I personally think 70D is better
though I still don't feel very comfortable with it.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 9 minutes after posting
1 upvote
igor_s
By igor_s (7 months ago)

DxOMark did everything for the Canon to look better. If they still did not succeed, this is not their fault.

4 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

"fast AF speed in video does not necessarily mean good." - That's why Sony's A77 DOES OFFER SLOW AF MODE. ;)

2 upvotes
iShootWideOpen
By iShootWideOpen (7 months ago)

The three people that shoot Sony DSLR's worldwide are all here complaining about bias about their cameras LOL

8 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

Trolls -> that way

12 upvotes
dweberphotography
By dweberphotography (7 months ago)

Don't forget about me! Though Im not complaining. I actually like the Canons these days, but I cant just switch all my gear over while im in college. Maybe as a graduation gift Ill ask to get a 5d MKIII

0 upvotes
steelhead3
By steelhead3 (7 months ago)

I guess you aren't concerned with excellence and would rather follow the crowd.

2 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (7 months ago)

Sony DSLRs should follow Oly DSLRs to the hell,
as soon as they can have good lens and AF for NEX.

0 upvotes
AbrasiveReducer
By AbrasiveReducer (7 months ago)

Today's "excellence" in cameras is tomorrow's mediocrity--and that's being generous. These cameras are all better than what we had 3 years ago and all of them will be far from excellent, even obsolete in a few years. It's not like buying a 25-year old Pentax and admiring the intrinsic quality of the thing.

0 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (7 months ago)

Well, I got that Pentax 25 years ago and I'm not giving up on occasional film shooting. I bet your digital gear can't do that (nor your iPhone). There is something magical about developing a film in a dark room, your own paper, seeing the shots appear.
Yrs, my 25 old tech is SUPERIOR to yours in film.

0 upvotes
halfwaythere
By halfwaythere (7 months ago)

Why wasn't a GH-3 included?

Comment edited 22 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

GH3 is mirrorless and that's a DSLR test (even though some ppl disagree that SLTs are DSLRs - most certainly they belong to DSLR system - the A-mount). Also right now SLTs are only other cameras using PDAF during the video making comparison possible.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
4 upvotes
halfwaythere
By halfwaythere (7 months ago)

More so because the SLT is not a DSLR they shoud've included a mirrorless camera which was designed for amateur videographers.

A broader test is never a bad test.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (7 months ago)

GH3 will always have jittering for CDAF.
though both A77 and 70D also do sometimes.

0 upvotes
DELETED88781
By DELETED88781 (7 months ago)

Who believes DXO anymore?
The d600 has the same Noise level as D3S/D4. What a joke.

0 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

Well...
1. Pentax guys, cause DXO says they got the best cameras in APS-C market
2. Nikon guys, cause they can use it for bashing Canon
Though group that always hates DXO are Canon guys, cause according to DXO they got one of the worst cameras in terms of IQ on APS-C market.

3 upvotes
DELETED88781
By DELETED88781 (7 months ago)

I am a Nikon Guy, so i have the knowledge to see the scam

Tamron 24-70 one of the best lens ever? OMG...I own it its so soft from 35mm-70mm up to f5.6

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

Such a "joke" that it's actually supported by most controlled studio tests, such as found on this very website.

7 upvotes
DELETED88781
By DELETED88781 (7 months ago)

Mr TrollMac are you ready?
Please compare the D3S to the D600 on DPreview. One stop difference.

DXO states equal noise performance.Why? they want to promot every new nikon camera

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 2 minutes after posting
1 upvote
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

I already did. Some people don't seem to grasp the fact that the output has to be the same size for any noise comparison to be useful (regardless which size that is).

This is apparently where you failed too. Because I just compared ISO 6400 again, and they are indeed very comparable for a similar visual scene brightness. To the point where I actually prefer the 24 MP files for offering better processing options (more starting information allows for more sophisticated NR and sharpening) towards a final usable output.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 8 minutes after posting
6 upvotes
DELETED88781
By DELETED88781 (7 months ago)

I mean RAW comparison not jpeg.
download the raw files, open in photoshop side by side.

Reside D600 to 12mp and compare at full size.

1 upvote
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

Obviously I was talking about (converted) RAW files, opened in Lightroom in my case. If you see anywhere near a stop difference, I wonder what you're really looking at.
See here:
http://oi41.tinypic.com/2qmdkkg.jpg

Comment edited 26 seconds after posting
6 upvotes
Josh152
By Josh152 (7 months ago)

Here's what to do when you want to compare the noise from two different cameras. Take both studio scenes from the different cameras, process the raws to taste in lightroom then compare them using your usual output medium and size. Then you will know which camera does better for your specific processing, output media, and size. Any other comparison is largely pointless.

0 upvotes
barry reid
By barry reid (7 months ago)

A truly Bizarre test. Why use two lenses that couldn't be more different, rather than drop the same Tamron or sigma on to each body, to at least get some semblance of consistency in lens performance?

1 upvote
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

Because Canon is known to have issues with 3rd party lenses.
Instead they used glass that both manufacturers recommend for video work with their DSLRs. Makes sense. Even more so when both of these cameras are sold with their respective lenses as a kits.

Comment edited 5 minutes after posting
9 upvotes
Suave
By Suave (7 months ago)

I saw a 70D at the store last night. It didn't have a 40mm as a kit lens.

2 upvotes
jkokich
By jkokich (7 months ago)

I thought a prime vs a zoom lens seemed odd.

1 upvote
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

It does, but only works in an advantage of Canon, yet in the end - it still looses.

2 upvotes
AD in KC
By AD in KC (7 months ago)

What I'd really like to see is an objective, head to head comparison between a Capresso Infinity coffee grinder and a tuna sandwich. I've got my own suspicions which is best, but I'd like to see a scientific DxO evaluation before I decide.

15 upvotes
Pritzl
By Pritzl (7 months ago)

They could have at least tested with a halfway decent lens. That 40mm is not a speed demon by all accounts. I have a hard time believing they did not have access to better lenses.

0 upvotes
steelhead3
By steelhead3 (7 months ago)

Could you suggest which lens would give better results for the Canon, after all they are comparing a prime to a kit zoom.

2 upvotes
tkbslc
By tkbslc (7 months ago)

The $800 16-50 f2.8 OS SSM is certainly NOT a "kit zoom".

0 upvotes
steelhead3
By steelhead3 (7 months ago)

Just because it may cost more than Canon or Nikon kit zooms doesn't mean it isn't a kit zoom (sold as such). Sony lenses tend to be higher cost and higher quality than their counter parts.

6 upvotes
tkbslc
By tkbslc (7 months ago)

I think you might be confusing the 16-50 f2.8 with the NEX 16-50 f3.5-5.6 PZ.

0 upvotes
steelhead3
By steelhead3 (7 months ago)

Look up the A77 kit and see which lens they come with. The 65 kit comes with the 18/55. We are talking about A mount.

3 upvotes
EinsteinsGhost
By EinsteinsGhost (7 months ago)

16-50/2.8 SSM is the kit zoom for A77 ($500 over body-only). The weather-sealed combination was launched as such two years ago.

Comment edited 50 seconds after posting
3 upvotes
tkbslc
By tkbslc (7 months ago)

You are being pedantic. You all know what people mean when they say kit lens. Saying it is fair because it is just a "kit zoom" implies that it is a compromised lens, like the typical $100 18-55 kit zooms. When in fact it is just a high end lens they happened to bundle with a camera.

0 upvotes
peevee1
By peevee1 (7 months ago)

They should have used Canon 17-55/2.8 on the Canon, but the results in video would be much worse - after all, unlike the 40/2.8, it is not an STM lens. I hope you have seen the comparison of STM vs non-STM on this Canon. :)

Comment edited 31 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
EinsteinsGhost
By EinsteinsGhost (7 months ago)

@tkbslc:
If they can't handle a kit lens being called a kit lens because it is weather sealed, premium option on a premium weather sealed body, the least you could do is present facts.

And peevee is right. STM lenses are the perfect choice for the Canon. It would have been injustice to 70D if Canon 17-55/2.8 were pitted against the A77+16-50/2.8 combo.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Eleson
By Eleson (7 months ago)

Einstein, the problem for tkbslc and Pritzl isn't that Canon had to use the STM lens, they just want the Sony to use a lens that is worse...

0 upvotes
Pritzl
By Pritzl (6 months ago)

STMs do not focus fast. They are designed to do so for a more pleasing focus pull effect. Also, among the STM lenses, the 40mm is not the snappiest; I suspect even the 18-135 kit lens would probably outdo it.

0 upvotes
Jogger
By Jogger (7 months ago)

It seems that dedicated PDAF sensors (via mirror and AF chip) is still far better than on-sensor PDAF sensors.

The Nikon 1 series on-sensor PDAF is fast.. but, it uses tiny lenses and its technology has not been proven on larger sensor cameras with larger lenses.

3 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

Agreed. Nikon 1 AF is fast mostly because DOF is so huge that it masks any issues AF might have. It's completely different world though with APS-C and larger sensors.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
5 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (7 months ago)

Yes, but it still is faaaast!

0 upvotes
Marvol
By Marvol (7 months ago)

I anyway find it quite striking that most reviews and comparisons so far have completely ignored Sony's SLTs, preferring to praise this new model over previous Canons or comparable Nikons instead.

Imaging Resource remarkably manages to do its entire review without even once mentioning Sony (!), while CameraLabs only compares to the Nikon 7100, of which nobody ever claimed that its live view AF was stellar.

But after all the hype we wouldn't want this brand new Canon be made to look bad by a two-year-old Sony, would we now?

15 upvotes
Impulses
By Impulses (7 months ago)

To be fair, I think Cameralabs' resources are more limited than most sites (isn't it like a two man operation? they put out a ton of solid reviews despite that)... But he did mention the SLT systems a ton of times throughout the review and even went into technical detail about why the dual pixel sensor could in theory work better. I think he even concluded an SLT was still better (than a non-pro DSLR) for shooting action since shot to shot times on the 70D thru line view are quite slow (and most SLTs still have faster burst modes).

0 upvotes
Marvol
By Marvol (7 months ago)

Yes, Cameralabs are limited in resources and yes, he was charitable towards the A77 throughout the review.

Still, they have a review of the A77 with all data from it available. To *not* include the A77 as a viable alternative in their final comparison but *do* include the 7D and the 7100 is rather doing a disservice to customers, especially those who want to know about alternatvies for video.

Unfortunately this neglect is endemic and is part of the reason why the Big Two remain the Big Two. Other brands are equally ignored when it comes to their relative strengths.

0 upvotes
Antimateria
By Antimateria (7 months ago)

Dear Dpreview, i kmow, Amazon sold a lot Cannons, but you have used A77?
In video mode, A77 too "gears the focusing speed down during movie recording to achieve smooth transitions between subjects, as rapid focus jumps can be disconcerting for the viewer".
You tell of this only about cannon, is incorrect, dear Dpreview......

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
20 upvotes
Artpt
By Artpt (7 months ago)

I used an A57 for a week and enjoyed the 60p video, with great tracking ( the kids running around the pool). It seems like the gap of photo quality and video performance is narrowing, but we can still consider one better suited than the other. I wonder each manufacturer's patent protection is limiting a convergence of both technologies?

Also...wonderful to see immediate image testing by just announced cameras. Well done indeed.

Art

4 upvotes
Marty4650
By Marty4650 (7 months ago)

Personally, I'm having a hard time "Disregarding the better color and exposure accuracy of the Sony SLT-A77."

The A-77 results just looked so much better to me.

14 upvotes
SHood
By SHood (7 months ago)

Fixing color issues in videos is a lot more time consuming as you cannot apply the same adjustment to the whole video. Proper exposure, WB, color, etc out of the box is critical for the consumer market.

3 upvotes
igor_s
By igor_s (7 months ago)

I guess if they would set the exposure correction on Canon in their low light test, there would be too much noise in output.

0 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

Well, A77 wins easily, especially in low light where the difference is enormous.

If "slow and steady" is good - than A77 got a "Slow AF" mode that you can turn on in options, without taking your eye off the viewfinder. So... win-win for Sony's SLT.
Only real issue is AF tracking, though in real life, where subjects don't run like crazy back and forth - A77 can handle it quite nicely too :).
I guess Sony owners are very happy after seeing that test.

On-sensor PDAF got a VERY long way to go.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
10 upvotes
peevee1
By peevee1 (7 months ago)

"Only real issue is AF tracking, though in real life, where subjects don't run like crazy back and forth"

Try to shoot kids, or sports, like floor during a gymnastics competition in a poorly lit gym, for example.

1 upvote
Marvol
By Marvol (7 months ago)

I was thinking exactly that.

Sony models (my A700 had this, too) have a 'slow AF mode' that allows for slower but more accurate AF, and with the current video options this also provides smoother refocusing. Win/win.

0 upvotes
Cane
By Cane (7 months ago)

I guess you don't have little kids then.

1 upvote
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

peevee1 - I did sports in poorly lit gym and A77 worked brilliantly.
Small kids are an issue, though honestly? I'm yet to see a camera that can reliably track running kids, so I don't even take that into comparisons.

5 upvotes
Falko
By Falko (7 months ago)

The A77 autofocus and tracking are much faster than canon 70D. The better color and exposure accuracy of the Sony SLT-A77 is obvious too. At least for me, the Sony SLT model is a clear winner and more attractive proposition for video users.

15 upvotes
dylanbarnhart
By dylanbarnhart (7 months ago)

It's interesting that we have 2 competing technology that can replace the conventional DSLR focus. There are tradeoff in both approaches.

Sony SLT
+ Faster in bright light
- Slower in low light
+ 0.2 second shutter lag
- Permanently lose 1/3 of the light gathered by the lens (which Sony made up for now by having better sensor)
~ EVF - I know there are many fans of the EVF

Canon Dual Pixel
- Slower in bright light
+ Faster in low light
- 0.8 second shutter lag in Live-View mode
+ Camera can still switch to focusing with the mirror for ultimate tracking
+ OVF still works

I'm hypothesizing that in the next decade phase detection on the sensor will win because sensors readouts are getting faster and faster. It will one day be better than all other AF technologies, even phase detection with the mirror.

1 upvote
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (7 months ago)

Based on the videos posted, the A77 focuses faster when using video mode in low light too, it's the tracking in low light where it loses points.
And I haven't seen any low light comparisons for focus speeds in still mode either. I do know that the A77 was slightly faster than the 7D in this regard.

The argument made by DXO that only part of the light hits the dedicated PDAF sensor in SLT's, is one sided too, because the PDAF pixels on main sensors only receive a smaller portion of the light as well. And even when using DSLR's in their regular stills mode (with OVF), the PDAF sensor only receives the light that passes the semi silvered center section of the main mirror, passed on to a smaller secondary mirror behind it and bounced to the AF sensors. So even there, we're talking about a smaller portion of the incoming light.

1 upvote
rwbaron
By rwbaron (7 months ago)

One of the most poorly conceived and executed tests I've seen from any site and I shoot Canon. This test makes me wonder if the DXO naysayers might have a point.

9 upvotes
Dave Luttmann
By Dave Luttmann (7 months ago)

I presume if they found the opposite in their test, it would proclaimed as confirming Canon's success.

7 upvotes
rwbaron
By rwbaron (7 months ago)

Wouldn't make any difference to me.

1 upvote
tkbslc
By tkbslc (7 months ago)

If they tested a Canon 24-70 II against a Sony 50mm f1.8, people would be saying the same thing in reverse. You can't compare a cheap-o lens with a micro motor to a high end lens with a ultrasonic motor and pretend you isolated the body performance.

1 upvote
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (7 months ago)

Where is the [DISLIKE]

0 upvotes
linzdoctor7d
By linzdoctor7d (7 months ago)

That test was a joke! Real subject matter would be nice!

2 upvotes
Plastek
By Plastek (7 months ago)

AF tests are made on flat, artificial targets for a reason.

3 upvotes
KW Phua
By KW Phua (7 months ago)

Slow and steady. Good for video. Hope one day fast enough to replace the mirror.

1 upvote
peevee1
By peevee1 (7 months ago)

The AF comparison test is the most interesting camera test I have seen in quite some time.
Shooting stationary resolution charts is totally useless for the last 10 years or so.

2 upvotes
Rbrt
By Rbrt (7 months ago)

Hmmm... something about that picture....

2 upvotes
reginalddwight
By reginalddwight (7 months ago)

It's DPR's way of testing the astuteness of its followers.

1 upvote
Walter
By Walter (7 months ago)

What..all 700 of them.. ? :)

Comment edited 17 seconds after posting
1 upvote
cgarrard
By cgarrard (7 months ago)

701

0 upvotes
Total comments: 154