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American Society of Media Photographers warns about new Facebook T&Cs

By dpreview staff on Sep 8, 2013 at 12:00 GMT

Another day, another controversial change to Facebook's terms of service - this time, Facebook is planning to update its (very) smallprint in a way that some commentators worry greatly increase the company's power to exploit users' content and identities.

The American Society of Media Photographers has warned its members to 'beware' Facebook's proposed new terms of service, which - it claims - would allow the social media giant to 'exploit your name, likeness, content, images, private information, and personal brand by using it in advertising and in commercial and sponsored content - without any compensation to you'.

In a blog post structured as a question and answer format, the A.S.M.P. dissects Facebook's new proposed terms of service, explaining what the company has changed, what it might mean for photographers, and what concerned individuals can do to combat the changes.

Facebook's proposed terms of service are available to view online here.

The depressing answer is that if the changes are made official, there's nothing users can do directly, since according to the A.S.M.P. 'Facebook has specifically removed the language from their TOS that allows you to limit how your likeness, information, and content are associated with brands, commercial uses, or sponsored posts. They have also removed the clause that makes them subject to the privacy limits set in place by you on your profile.'

The A.S.M.P. suggests that members 'become informed', 'spread the word', and 'call for action' from other professional organizations with whom they work to 'ensure fair and respectful treatment of users by online services like Facebook and Instagram.'

Have you read Facebook's new proposed terms of service? Do you care? Did you even know about the changes being proposed? Let us know in the comments. 

Source: A.S.M.P

Comments

Total comments: 126
12
NDaniel
By NDaniel (7 months ago)

D@mn to create my personal site I guess... sigh......

0 upvotes
Deleted pending purge
By Deleted pending purge (7 months ago)

I've heard somewhere that Al Capone used to begin his telephone calls with "Good morning, everybody"... It was ages ago, and technology has, umm, advanced a bit since his heyday.
So are we all slowly but surely being reduced to (potential) criminals? Is there any communication really secure, regardless of what anyone uses it for?
Then I remember that human rights are just so much text, and there are so many schools about how to use, disfigure, twist and devalue the words. It finally boils down to old heat and kitchen advice.
Technically, how do we know that site-building programs do not have discreet backdoor access? What makes us certain the phone is really "off"? The speaker is mute and the screen is blank?
I can understand security agencies trying to stop crime by un-advertised means. But the companies being allowed to sell their products by privacy-invasive means, that's only another brazen step toward the next level of mass stupidity overproduction that we now accept as normal.

Comment edited 7 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Crac1
By Crac1 (7 months ago)

Since I received the message from FB, I was reluctant to leave my pictures on FB ... A week of reflection and reading your news have finally convinced me: I deleted almost all the pictures I shared ... Finally, I hope I have managed this maneuver! You never know what magic is capable FB!
thank you dpreview

1 upvote
Cliff Beard
By Cliff Beard (7 months ago)

In theory FB has its uses as a means for decent people to stay in touch and professionals to help project what they do. To a small extent it succeeds.

However the reality is that its T&C are onerous for those same people and it often degenerates into an online slum when the losers and cowards use it to attack the unfortunate, the dead and each other. Lets be honest, most real people are too busy working and having lives to do anything more than the occasional post or peek and hopefully because they lead real lives their posts will be more interesting.

I do wonder what drivel some people put up there as they spend so much time on the site they cannot actually do anything, let alone anything interesting! It seems to be creating a pool of socially dysfunctional individuals who have 2000 friends but no real ones!

I have been tempted to use it for my emerging business, but not under these T&Cs

2 upvotes
Nishi Drew
By Nishi Drew (7 months ago)

As long as they let everyone know I took that photo they plaster everywhere, generating traffic to my page and giving me business.... which is exactly the opposite of what's happening unfortunately

0 upvotes
buddah610
By buddah610 (7 months ago)

I still have my FB account but I have gone from using it all day every day to almost never over tha past year. What bothers me is, I have some ..what I thought..were great friends that I c in my "real"life and since I stopped using FB, it's almost as if they have forgotten there is a device called a T-E-L-E-P-H-O-N-E to use to ask me how I am, invite me to events or just talk. I signed on 2 days ago only to find out that they have invited lots of people to 2upcoming events that I would usually attend butI was not invited or asked at all! I called the person to ask her if I had done ssomething to offend her and I again told her that I don't use FB, for the 15th time. Her answer was that she has been soooo busy. Ummm..that makes no sense. So I said ok and goodbye. I write this because it just goes to show how much FB play's a part In people's lives.I've also had family members stop speaking to me because they posted something on FB and because I didn't see it and respond, I am, a selfish, useless, bi***. Nice huh? FB has been nothing but a curse in my life and I'm sure others as well. I am not a teen. I'm in my 40's and have a career. So, just a word of caution if you use FB as one of your main sources of communication or information.

5 upvotes
jjl
By jjl (7 months ago)

Personally... I have a facebook account, but rarely log-in. I only have it because friends (actual friends) of mine will post things there, which I want to see, and I need an account to do it. (maybe once every 1-2 months)

Just remember - log out as soon as you're done. Some people think just closing their browser will log them out. Not so. Same deal with LinkedIn and many other sites.

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal having a facebook account. It just depends on how you use it. They can't abuse your personal data if you don't post anything.

0 upvotes
Don Karner
By Don Karner (7 months ago)

How can one effectively quit FB?

0 upvotes
inFocus
By inFocus (7 months ago)

https://www.facebook.com/help/delete_account

0 upvotes
Robert Spanjaard
By Robert Spanjaard (7 months ago)

Personally, I don't care about their Terms of Service, or any other ToS (like G+, Flickr, or even DPReview). I just limit the quality of the images I upload, and only upload full-size versions to sites where I am in full control of the content and how it's used.

Dropping a social media account because of the ToS really is a last resort. The trick is to exploit social media without giving them a CHANCE to exploit you in a way you don't want them to. Ofcourse there'll always be exploitation in some way; social media sites have to pay their bills as well.

Comment edited 26 seconds after posting
4 upvotes
BruceBorowski
By BruceBorowski (7 months ago)

When will people ever learn .............. you want to get even ...... DUMP FACEBOOK!

0 upvotes
jf_tea
By jf_tea (7 months ago)

Life is too precious to spend it reading EULA and ToS... and then be shocked and anxious about the consequences of using those services or products.

I've closed my (mostly unused) FB account more than a year ago.

Comment edited 13 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Reactive
By Reactive (7 months ago)

I've never had a Facebook account, so laugh every time one of these horror stories appears. I simply can't see the point of telling the whole world every time I go for a dump, or 'sharing' a false impression of my wonderful happy life and my overwhelming social standing. If you're stupid enough to give away all your personal details and photos on Facebook, stop whining when it gets used elsewhere.

Comment edited 59 seconds after posting
5 upvotes
turretless
By turretless (7 months ago)

Exactly! People inclined to social voyeurism don't understand that they're willingly participating in implementation of a wet dream for all kinds of Big Brothers. On the other hand they might even not recognize the reference. Ignorance is bliss :)

2 upvotes
Suntan
By Suntan (7 months ago)

If you sell photos to people that do have a facebook account, then your photos are posted all over Facebook all the same.

-Suntan

3 upvotes
wcbert
By wcbert (7 months ago)

In Facebook's "Proposed Updates to our Governing Documents" there is mention of "We are proposing this update as part of a settlement in a cout case relating to advertising"

Does anyone know what the court case was about?

1 upvote
Canadianguy
By Canadianguy (7 months ago)

Original Lawsuit:
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2011cv01726/239253/115/

Here is the story about their settlement of that lawsuit:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/08/facebook-reaches-settlement-sponsored-stories/68752/

0 upvotes
turretless
By turretless (7 months ago)

Facewhat?

0 upvotes
Wye Photography
By Wye Photography (7 months ago)

I put all my personal data on Facebook. I don't worry because all that data is fabricated. My FB presence is a false person. Time for a wry smile :-)

2 upvotes
jf_tea
By jf_tea (7 months ago)

FB records and analyzes every click and connection that you have.
They nail you anyway.
The only solution is to quit.

1 upvote
Jahled
By Jahled (7 months ago)

Some genuinely paranoid remarks below. Has there ever been a major legal dispute regarding someone's personal data and Facebook? I mean other than idiots posting stuff about their employers etc, has Facebook ever actually screwed someone over say for example over the copyright of their creative work, such as photography? All i'm reading is Facebook tightening up to safeguard themselves, not take control over our lives.

I'm actually quite curious, though may have not entirely grasped something in the article.

Comment edited 11 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Peter Galbavy
By Peter Galbavy (7 months ago)

Has anyone in the EU - and not the US - done a proper analysis of the likelyhood of any of these changes being allowed? Data protection laws actually exist in the EU and while Facebook may claim to be a US business and so only subject to US laws (this was very recently, probably in conjunction with this change) I don't believe the lawyers will see it that way.

Don't forget DPReview is owned by one of the other big, evil, data sucking giants - Amazon.

1 upvote
mariuss
By mariuss (7 months ago)

"Facebook is planning to update its" When? Is this already happened? Or is there a chance that they are not doing this?

0 upvotes
Matthew Blumenthal
By Matthew Blumenthal (7 months ago)

I care, but I'm careful not to put much personal info on facebook for just this reason. I don't trust them at all, but I do want to keep up with friends all across the country. I especially will not put my best photos on there due to this type of thing. (Not that my best is very good. It's not. Still mine though.)

5 upvotes
Digitall
By Digitall (7 months ago)

At present there are many people who do not know what to do with their lives without social networks like FB, G+ and others. These social networks are the reason for their existence often. What we have in social networks, shared phrases and tons of publicity, unless specific situations, in fact the people themselves, do not sharing something original and unique, they share what millions of people share, aaahh and make millions of Likes too...without talking.
Social?

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
3 upvotes
ConanFuji
By ConanFuji (7 months ago)

I don't use facebook and I get back years of my life.

6 upvotes
tigrebleu
By tigrebleu (7 months ago)

The reason I stopped posting pictures on FB a long time ago. Facebook's Terms and Rules basically allow them to do whatever they want with the content you post on the social media pages. I didn't put a single picture on FB since over a year, and judging from this latest modification to their rules, I'm not likely to change my mind about this anytime soon.

I understand that FB needs the user's approval to reproduce his/her contents on third party pages and apps. and that making specific rules each use and its limits wouldn't be manageable.

I could be possible to come up with a new Terms of service agreement that prevents the sharing of the content posted by user to be used for commercial purposes, except for those in direct relation with the marketing and promotion of FB services and its contents, or something of this sort. This would allow FB to use the users' contents without fear of constant legal issues, while preventing abuse at the same time.

But FB wants to make profits, so...

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Mahmoud Mousef
By Mahmoud Mousef (7 months ago)

It's really simple.
Social networking sites are a marketer's wet dream and a dream for central planners and profile-building global spying agencies.

You (and your kids) are the product. Make no mistake about it. You are exploitable to the maximum extent of the law. In case you haven't noticed, there is no law. EVERYTHING you do online is being recorded, including your phone calls and Skype calls.

Your details, pics and associations are shared with many companies in back-room deals; you have agreed to this. If you are OK with your associations and content being exploited by marketers and shared with government, insurance and god-knows-what-else, continue using these 'free' services.

If you're OK with these spies spying on you, that's fine. Just don't say anything critical of your so-called leaders or you may find yourself on the receiving end of a big stick real quick.

You are not in charge of your content. Your content and activities are there to be sold and exploited.

6 upvotes
Camediadude
By Camediadude (7 months ago)

"Just don't say anything critical of your so-called leaders or you may find yourself on the receiving end of a big stick real quick."

So have you too been indoctrinated by the culture of fear that these 'leaders' have been propagating?

I say bring the sticks. Some of us are ready to fight back.

And in due time, many others will follow.

Comment edited 6 minutes after posting
4 upvotes
pavi1
By pavi1 (7 months ago)

Correct and we dont care. I dont do crime so it does not matter to me that all my movements are tracked by my cell phone, cameras at every intersection in town and license plate readers everywhere I go. The only thing that bothers me is everytime I google something, my email gets bombed with spam about whatever I did a google search for.

0 upvotes
SantaFeBill
By SantaFeBill (7 months ago)

"I don't do anything wrong, so I don't have to worry that the state knows everything I do." Tell that to the literally millions of people who were killed by their governments in the 20th Century alone, simply because of who or what they were, not because of anything they did. In Hitler's Germany, all you had to be was an 'Untermensch', in Stalin's Soviet Union, peasants who were seen as an obstacle to collectivization.
Tell that to the tens of thousands that are now being imprisoned or executed around the world today simply because of their ethnicity, religion, or politics.
How can you know anything about history or current events and think that an authoritarian government waits to punish those it wishes to until they actually do something that would, in a free society, be considered a crime?

11 upvotes
Phileas Fogg
By Phileas Fogg (7 months ago)

Pavi1,

Trust me, you have and likely will and probably unknowingly commit a crime. There are laws on the books so outmoded, so outdated that they serve no relevance but are laws still on the books that you, I and most others probably have broken and will break.

This said, pavi1. if you have nothing to hide as you state then please answer me this? Would you allow the state to install closed circuit cameras and microphones throughout your house? After all you have nothing to hide right? So if you say " NO WAY!" what would be your reasoning then?

You see pavi1 most crime likely begins inside the four walls of a house and/or the four walls of a business office. It would be much easier for the authorities to have closed circuit cameras installed in peoples homes and/or offices. BUT! that does not equal good police work, nor any real added safety but will reduce you to living in an Orwellian police state.

Think about it pavi1.

Comment edited 51 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
pavi1
By pavi1 (7 months ago)

You are having a really difficult time are't you?

0 upvotes
CameraLabTester
By CameraLabTester (7 months ago)

The company is addressing several issues with authorship and original image content being abused by other users, other than Facebook.

Facebook is washing their hands off with being blamed by third party thieves who inadvertently are existing Facebook partners. They don't want to be dragged in the quagmire of lawsuits.

It is almost impossible for Facebook to monitor theft by 3rd party users.

They want to cover their ass.

.

1 upvote
pavi1
By pavi1 (7 months ago)

If you publish it on the internet, it is published forever and anywhere someone wants to repeat it.

0 upvotes
Phileas Fogg
By Phileas Fogg (7 months ago)

"Am I my brother's keeper?"

Modern thoughts are to turn it as "I am my brother's keeper." That is we as people are to look out for the better interests of others including those whom we may not know. Of course we all can't inform, look out, or come to the aid of all others all of the time, but we should if/where we can.

I use to feel if I believe I had important and pertinent info to share with others even those I may not know, that I should with clarity and passion share said info. If it helps then great.

Today I still share important info but sorry I do not bang my head against a proverbial wall anymore. I have found and still find that most people can't bother to really save themselves from little issues right up to major ones in life. Why should I bang my head against a wall and suffer for those who could not seem to care any less if their words/actions may give poor results in their lives?

Use things like FB at your own discretion is all I can really offer in the end.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
1 upvote
Mike C
By Mike C (7 months ago)

I tried Facebook and cancelled because I felt (as an IT professional) that the security settings did not meet my own needs for an absolute lock down. Now FB gets worse.... The new policy seems very arrogant?? A FB user (free service or not) is a customer and will go elsewhere if dissatisfied.....

I agree with the prior poster. Get a personal website and lock it down ....

0 upvotes
Rock Rat
By Rock Rat (7 months ago)

FB users aren't the customers, they're the product. The customers are the advertisers.
If you get an online service for free,you're the product.

4 upvotes
Camediadude
By Camediadude (7 months ago)

With each passing day our "titans of industry" (whose pockets overfill with our useless sellout politicians) more and more mimic the evil villains of a James Bond movie.

4 upvotes
mweggie
By mweggie (7 months ago)

and we need FB why?

9 upvotes
agentul
By agentul (7 months ago)

because you have a fancy smartphone, and it's pretty much designed with social networking in mind. why do you have a smartphone? because you can't buy high quality "normal" phones anymore.

0 upvotes
Deleted pending purge
By Deleted pending purge (7 months ago)

See here, https://www.abine.com/how-donottrackme-works/ , and pick what best suits your needs.
Aside from that, the reasonable decision is to remove your contents and account from FB, and then be prepared for an avalanche of reminders, prods, and other "important" messages about how you should re-join. :P

1 upvote
Deleted pending purge
By Deleted pending purge (7 months ago)

By the way, at least five companies are tracking you HERE right now: Google +1, Twitter Badge, Facebook Connect, Google Analytics, and Comscore Beacon.
And God (maybe) knows how many others...

Comment edited 30 seconds after posting
6 upvotes
andywhoa
By andywhoa (7 months ago)

Alexa Metrics
Amazon Associates
DoubleClick
Pinterest

4 upvotes
Ferling
By Ferling (7 months ago)

I had a WasteBook account while it was fun, and I've deleted the commercial stuff a long time ago. I also stopped posting my work out of respect for some friends/clients whom didn't want their photos, or private lives shared outside their family, etc. Email, a phone call and a secure Zenfolio gallery does wonders.

If you do have FB account, and swear it's a lifeline to leads and clients who provide you income that meets or exceeds your cost of doing business, (and not those whom try to take advantage of your "friends" status). Here are some things you can do:

1. Replace your profile pic with an avatar or something other than your face, to prevent it from winding up in something embarrassing to your reputation.
2. Post small images with fat watermarks and links to a protected gallery.
3. Be careful what you say by being your own PR rep.
4. Opt out of everything, kill the apps, and make sure that your settings for tagging and posting on your wall, require your approval, first.

1 upvote
Rbrt
By Rbrt (7 months ago)

I never did get Facebook. I am currently involved in a legal dispute. One of the first things my attorney asked me is whether I had a Facebook site. I told her I didn't and that I never understood why anybody would want to expose their private life to millions of strangers. She nodded approvingly. Apparently, even if you make your profile "private" you can be forced to reveal it under the rules of disclosure. This latest revelation makes it even worse. I laugh at those who talk about "Facebook bashing" being the latest trend. What is wrong with you?

Members of my family have profiles on Facebook. They put pictures of their kids on it. I don't get that. I don't get it at all.

23 upvotes
EvokeEmotion
By EvokeEmotion (7 months ago)

"I laugh at those who talk about "Facebook bashing" being the latest trend. What is wrong with you?

Actually, I said Apple bashing is trendy, and FB-bashing is cool. Anyway, what's wrong with me? Nothing. But what's wrong with you? Plenty of folks here are bashing FB. Did I not state a fact here? I didn't say if they're right or wrong to bash FB, did I?

0 upvotes
retro76
By retro76 (7 months ago)

My wife and I deleted our Facebook accounts months ago. Friends and family members are doing the same thing. We set up our own web site which is private and allows forums and picture sharing (and tons of other stuff) for $20 a year.

13 upvotes
Rbrt
By Rbrt (7 months ago)

Personal web sites are cheap. Watch out for vendors like Go*addy - by the time you are finished you'll feel like you've been to a MacDona*ds and asked if you wanted cheese with that 7,000 times. A year later you'll be amazed at the extra charges you'll be hit with.

0 upvotes
OneGuy
By OneGuy (7 months ago)

Even if you have your own web site, search engines will allow your friends to find you.

Personally, if I were to get Facebook-sourced information, I'd know it's about people who are for the most part clueless and who cannot contribute much.

Also, there is no feedback. If you put your face on a billboard you will know more about the people seeing you than if you put your face on FB. I have StatCounter on my website and am very comfortable updating my site to reflect the interest of my anonymous visitors.

0 upvotes
Jacques Cornell
By Jacques Cornell (7 months ago)

What's trendy these days more than facebook or Apple bashing is rights grabbing. That's where the money is. Social media sites and "photo contest" organizers all over the place are doing it. If you think your photos have any value whatsoever, be very, very careful who you give them to.

My solution is to post only a very small number of unimportant and watermarked photos direct to facebook and to post only a link to the good stuff on my website.

5 upvotes
ceving13
By ceving13 (7 months ago)

Who needs Facebook? People having passed age of puberty but still using Facebook should think about a good couch doctor.

Comment edited 28 seconds after posting
7 upvotes
EvokeEmotion
By EvokeEmotion (7 months ago)

Facebook bashing - it's what's cool these days. Although Apple-bashing is still quite trendy.

3 upvotes
Rbrt
By Rbrt (7 months ago)

Syria bashing is popular too.

2 upvotes
Mr Fartleberry
By Mr Fartleberry (7 months ago)

Don't forget Adobe CC sub$criptions.

0 upvotes
marike6
By marike6 (7 months ago)

"Syria bashing". Is this a joke? On second thought, I don't want to know.

1 upvote
Corlissmedia
By Corlissmedia (7 months ago)

If Facebook offered to pay for your content, would that make this work?

0 upvotes
Rbrt
By Rbrt (7 months ago)

How much could they offer, really? Look at loyalty programs. You get pennies for exposing your every purchase.

0 upvotes
Just a Photographer
By Just a Photographer (7 months ago)

Wonder if this would be legal in Europe.
Especially with all the fuss about NSA and privacy rules.

These new terms of service will add up to a big discussion about privacy and ownership of content that is already going on.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (7 months ago)

What do you think is different in Europe, same sheet different language

1 upvote
Rbrt
By Rbrt (7 months ago)

The Euros are much more savvy about this. They remember what the Nazis did - with IBM's help by the way. Those numbers they tattooed on peoples' arms were put on IBM punch cards.

2 upvotes
BigEnso
By BigEnso (7 months ago)

And made Thomas Watson and IBM a ton of money.

1 upvote
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (7 months ago)

I'm not sorry I never joined Facebook, and I don't plan to join anytime in the future.

7 upvotes
pavi1
By pavi1 (7 months ago)

thanks

1 upvote
Higuel
By Higuel (7 months ago)

It would be VERY helpful if someone would make a good article about how to protect our images and privacy for REAL in facebook!

When will someone create something that allows us to connect with ppl in fakebook but not posting actually nothing in it, just having links that automatically would link our friends to it?
That could be a solution!

0 upvotes
Raist3d
By Raist3d (7 months ago)

The solution is to not facebook at all. You agree to their terms or decide it's not for you.

0 upvotes
Carlos Echenique
By Carlos Echenique (7 months ago)

removed pro content from FB. Only provide links to offsite content. Once that catches on, they will probably claim that all content linked from them is now their content.

FB: ALL CONTENT ARE BELONG TO US!

8 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (7 months ago)

They belong to us, to them, everybody.
Once you upload something to fb (or online in general, google will index it ) it's just stops to be yours, it's ours !!!.
They've indexed us and now have started indexing under-net

2 upvotes
Danothy
By Danothy (7 months ago)

I'm still wondering what sort of content may be 'exploited' and in what way ...

1 upvote
Chris Howitt
By Chris Howitt (7 months ago)

I don't care! I don't do Facebook

3 upvotes
Terry Breedlove
By Terry Breedlove (7 months ago)

Not that easy anymore. Most of my wedding and portrait clients come from FB.

2 upvotes
Hassan Al-Rayes
By Hassan Al-Rayes (7 months ago)

not surprised

Comment edited 11 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Long Live Film
By Long Live Film (7 months ago)

Oh Facebook, don't you make enough money already without having to sell my soul?

0 upvotes
Devendra
By Devendra (7 months ago)

Weird reaction to secret but things known. Just like reacting to NSA thinking big brother doesnt know what you do in the digital and analog world.

0 upvotes
Jimmy jang Boo
By Jimmy jang Boo (7 months ago)

There are far greater liabilities with far greater consequences to using FB.

4 upvotes
pavi1
By pavi1 (7 months ago)

You are some really ignorant people. Did you really think that was your "Aunt Sally" suggesting that you might be interested in purple widgets. Facebook has been posting on my friends news feed on my behalf for a long time. Nothing new.
Not sure why anyone would post anything of value on a public web site. If you do, then you deserve what ever abuse they heap upon you.

9 upvotes
Mark Carr
By Mark Carr (7 months ago)

I can't believe so many people have gravitated to these social media sites, they're just data collection agencies. I have friends who have tried to cancel their membership and could never get their content removed, so I guess once you sign up you're a Facebook member for life. Just create a website for yourself, they're cheap enough today with Wordpress, and then use e-mail to correspond.

10 upvotes
JEROME NOLAS
By JEROME NOLAS (7 months ago)

Long live the NAZIBOOK!!!!

3 upvotes
SeeRoy
By SeeRoy (7 months ago)

FaecesBook.
"Never give a sucker an even break"
W.C. Fields

3 upvotes
Total comments: 126
12