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SmugMug launches totally redesigned website

By dpreview staff on Jul 30, 2013 at 19:29 GMT

Photo sharing site SmugMug has rolled out a totally redesigned website, which was 'rebuilt from the ground up'. The look-and-feel of the site is radically different, and somewhat resembles the recently redesigned Flickr.  Some of the new features on Smugmug include a large selection of default templates for the consumer, plus the ability for pros to create their own custom designs. Finally, the design is now 'responsive', which means that it will display properly on all devices, from smartphone to computer. 

SmugMug charges between $40 and $300 per year for their service. Even the most basic account allows you options including customizing the design and upload of HD video. More expensive services include a mechanism for selling your photos - for which you'll need to pony up $150 yearly.


Press Release:

SmugMug Redesigns from the Ground Up

Photo-sharing Gets a Fresh, Modern Look and Feel

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., July 30, 2013 – SmugMug, the largest independent photo-sharing site in the world, unveiled a completely new version of its service today. Rather than upgrading the current site, co-founders Chris and Don MacAskill asked the SmugMug team to reinvent the entire experience.

“We saw this as an opportunity to combine what we’ve learned through our eleven years, and make SmugMug into what we always imagined it could be,” said Brian Strong, Lead Engineer at SmugMug.

What the company envisioned was a site with a fresh, modern look and feel. A site that offers gorgeous designs - right out of the box - with an easy way for all users to create their own unique style.

“We've built a product that's not only the most stunning service you've ever seen, but offers unlimited personalization that the web has never seen,” said Don MacAskill, CEO and Chief Geek of SmugMug. “Alone among all the major photo-sharing services, we understand that photo-sharing doesn’t just begin and end with beautiful. It begins with stunning and ends with personal.”

The new SmugMug now offers:

1) Gorgeous Sites. Photo-sharing services have traditionally given users a standard template, so that everyone looked the same. The new SmugMug offers dozens of beautiful designs, with each one completely customizable.

2) Completely Customizable. SmugMug’s innovative Customizer makes web design unbelievably easy. Visual and interactive, it empowers anyone to quickly personalize their site.

3) Beautiful Everywhere. Every SmugMug site includes responsive design, so it adapts to any viewing screen - from smartphones to large monitors.

4) Easy Photo Management. The all new site Organizer makes it easy to manage thousands of files by dragging images into galleries, galleries into folders, and folders into folders, up to five levels deep.

See the new SmugMug in action!

  • See The New SmugMug launch video here: http://youtu.be/oEK9xFnMtgk.
  • See The Inspiration Behind The New SmugMug video here: http://youtu.be/9xvcm3ba8nw
  • Check out the blog post announcement here: http://smu.gs/161gAko

Then, visit www.smugmug.com for a free 14-day trial. Membership starts at $5/month.

Additional Images:

One of the default consumer templates
A default Pro template
A custom Pro design

Comments

Total comments: 75
Sosua
By Sosua (8 months ago)

Loving the changes - I find its not perfect, but much better.

A few little bugs going on but I'm sure these will be ironed out shortly.

0 upvotes
Jetranger_Pilot
By Jetranger_Pilot (8 months ago)

As a long time pro customer, I am now looking to move elsewhere.

Not because of the new site mess, but because of their inability to respect and value their customers.

They brag about having a culture of sorcery, and they started sending demonic photos on every e-mail from their support people. I don't really care what they do on their own time, but when asked to stop sending their inappropriate photos, they laughed and refused. They seem to be unable to consider other people, or respect their values.

You don't just join their website - you become part of the culture of sorcery.

This is very unfortunate, as without that nonsense, the site has a lot of potential, and many good features.

If you are looking for a host that respects and values the customer ... this is not the place to be.

1 upvote
Sosua
By Sosua (8 months ago)

What?? You are talking about the fancy dress photos of their help team?

They are dressed as super heroes / comic book characters.

1 upvote
electrophoto
By electrophoto (8 months ago)

Jetranger_Pilot

Did I just read this?? "culture of sorcery" "not just joining their website, but becoming part of the culture of sorcery"???

Honestly? were you home schooled by 12th century nuns?

IF your post wasn't sarcastic, than I'm truly amazed at this "opinion" of yours.

2 upvotes
graybalanced
By graybalanced (8 months ago)

FYI...some practitioners of this point of view have also expressed disapproval of Unix operating systems because "daemons" (background processes) are central to the operation of the system. They are not willing to tolerate such a high level of demonic involvement in their personal computing.

So if Smugmug's images (not actually demonic by the way, but of simulated superhero characters, which is why they call them Support Heros...you really should take a second look) really do bother you, you might want to make sure you steer clear of OS X, Android, Linux, and anything else based on the OS that is run by daemons.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
2 upvotes
Mika Kovalainen
By Mika Kovalainen (4 months ago)

Dpreview.com should have a forum filter so we can filter out American posters and comments so we don't have to see rubbish like this.

0 upvotes
spiritdog
By spiritdog (8 months ago)

I transitioned without a problem. The file organization is much much better as is the ability to customize. Definitely not a refresh but a whole new site...I am very happy at the moment. I also feel better about the pricing now since time is money and they just saved me a whole lot of time!

http://www.spiritdogphotography.com/

3 upvotes
arkadik
By arkadik (8 months ago)

fotki is the best site for readability. Despite the difficulties in keeping the originals

0 upvotes
skysi
By skysi (8 months ago)

Zenfolio is still much better.

0 upvotes
Kinematic Digit
By Kinematic Digit (8 months ago)

I think I might be switching, but the pricing options are a little dorky too.

Comment edited 5 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Kinematic Digit
By Kinematic Digit (8 months ago)

So after a couple of days with this, I'm less impressed with it.

Design wise, it's much nicer looking (on the surface).

If you use it default with some slight modification, it's pretty handy. The new organizer is much simpler to use, and the security features for 'folders' is a welcome change. Sandbox mode is also very nice to build new looks. Customization is reasonably flexible, but it stops short of being truly fully customizable.

The big negatives are the following:
• You cannot remove 'smugmug' branding completely without knowing some CSS coding. Even pro $300 accounts cannot completely shut if off with the interface. You need to back door the code.
• The CSS editor is not an editor in the same sense of most CMS based sites. You still have to use a ridiculous multipage reference manual to figure out how to modify the CSS. Neither intuitive or great for even the seasoned webdesigner.

1 upvote
Kinematic Digit
By Kinematic Digit (8 months ago)

• The Layout editor is also not very intuitive and very basic (drag and drop for left and right or top and bottom layout. There's no grid, or let alone an easy DIV based layout scheme. In this day and age, it's a bit inexcusable (weebly for example is way more customizable that way).
• No build from scratch options. Everything has to start with a template, and you modify from that. They bragged that it's a great system because everyone tweaks daily. Not exactly something to be proud of.
• Poor technical support (yes, they are busy with the change over), but the forums are about the best support you can get, and most of them are from fanboys of smugmug that will help you best (God forbid if you criticize the product there though).
• Fonts and style modifying is not available as an option. you can select font type and alignments, but thats about it. Forget leading or font sizes.

More testing to do, but it's a little bit of a let down.

2 upvotes
Denis of Whidbey Island
By Denis of Whidbey Island (8 months ago)

I found that the new system got confused by my folders/galleries organization, but changing to a flat (galleries only) organization worked. Overall, I'm very happy with the new look. I wold prefer more control over the images that show up on the home page (when I look, I see one from a required/hidden gallery), and have not learned all of the ins and outs, but my migration has been fairly smooth.

0 upvotes
Terbily
By Terbily (8 months ago)

How did you change to a flat (galleries only) structure?

Did you have to reorganize your content or is there a setting? I used to be able to login and view all my galleries. Now I have several clicks to get to them.

0 upvotes
robdalzell
By robdalzell (8 months ago)

have lost all of my galleries and cannot upload as I have no folders. Help is too slow and I am very angry. Like all software I was comfortable with the old format and knew what i was doing. Now completely lost.

Comment edited 37 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
J4Hug
By J4Hug (8 months ago)

I have been a SmugMug user since 2004 and although was quite happy with the format that I had developed which was near to their default, I do welcome the change. The impact on those who had made major changes to the appearance of their sites prior to the new format I would think have more issues than me. The setup and transfer to the new format for me has taken about 5 hours with a series of tinkering sessions, it wasn't instant and is on-going. Some of the changes are intuitive some less so. Tutorials would certainly have helped.
I like the new styles and I am sure I will adapt some more as time goes by. So my vote is that it has been a good move.

0 upvotes
haliskig
By haliskig (8 months ago)

Extremely disappointed in transition to new Smugmug. My visitors used to see my galleries (Sports, weddings, etc) and now I just have a bunch of random pics from random galleries. Some galleries are not even represented. How am I going to sell pics if someone can't find a gallery,.
I love the new look, but it has to be functional. Facebook is cool, too. So are a lot of other sites that know how to push photos. But when clients want to find their photos, they want to find them and fast.
Good thing I am still in Preview, and my customers can see the old setup. If it's even possible to set up the site the old way (with the improved styling) SmugMug should have had tutorials set up before they went live. Too late now.

2 upvotes
Snaaks
By Snaaks (9 months ago)

subscribed for a year last year but I cancelled my account earlier this month. I got an e-mail that 'warned' me for the upcoming renewal and a link for an easy opting-out. I think that's very decent of them.

Comment edited 22 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
D1N0
By D1N0 (9 months ago)

Another one. I use imageshack for random pics I dont want portfolioized

0 upvotes
Dennis
By Dennis (9 months ago)

I've been on smugmug for several years. I have some outdated photos for public showing, but use it extensively to share photos in a restricted way (private galleries for friends and password-protected galleries for school families). It's been a great way to share photos, but the presentation has gotten a little 'tired'.

I've got a partial redesign done (you can work on a site revision while smugmug continues to present your unchanged original site to viewers) and so far, I really like it. It takes a little poking around to see how to do some things, but I'm getting something that I thought I'd never bother to do because I'd never take the time to research how to customize my site through html and css. Most of the work is reorganizing, which I needed to do, having nothing to do with smugmug changes.

0 upvotes
M Lammerse
By M Lammerse (9 months ago)

For 150/300 a year you need to do a bit more than smugging up your 'viewing experience' and making it to compete..

I'm not saying with this that Smugmug is bad, if you want independent dedicated photo hosting (and selling) there isn't much more out there and with services like Flikr and Picasa it's probable a hard time.

2 upvotes
Jurka
By Jurka (9 months ago)

Looks ugly.

0 upvotes
Mike Stonebridge
By Mike Stonebridge (9 months ago)

I think it looks great. Their old design was a little dated. I was considering making a move, but with years of photos I was kind of locked in. Very happy with the update.

2 upvotes
peterwr
By peterwr (9 months ago)

Very nice. If it wasn't called SmugMug, I'd use it.

6 upvotes
jezsik
By jezsik (9 months ago)

Having just tried to configure my account with the new look, I must say that I'm not enjoying the experience. It does not help that the samples of all their new "themes" use a variety of different (and beautiful) pictures, drawing my attention to the images rather than the layout. Had they used generic placeholder images for each sample, I could better see how they would look.

Just trying each theme is no good either since it displays the images I've most recently uploaded (even though those galleries are hidden). How does this improve my experience? I work with galleries, not individual images!

I can't help thinking this is all for show and not for productivity.

7 upvotes
jezsik
By jezsik (9 months ago)

After spending more time, I'm even less impressed with the management tools. Before, each gallery had a "Tools" menu that provided a very dense and interactive set of options (including an option to view the statistics). That has been replaced with a large overlay menue that requires you to navigate through the various options (too much clicking!). Stats are no longer listed there!

I just sent a friend a link to a unlisted gallery. The gallery link leads to my smugmug page, not the gallery. The image link works OK, though. Did they unleash this thing too soon?

0 upvotes
jezsik
By jezsik (9 months ago)

Finally found the statistics; you have to access them through your account page, not the individual albums. Instead of looking at all the information pertinent to an album, you must first open the general statistics than THEN find the specific album for which you want to view statistics. So much for making things easier!

0 upvotes
graybalanced
By graybalanced (9 months ago)

"It does not help that the samples of all their new "themes" use a variety of different (and beautiful) pictures, drawing my attention to the images rather than the layout."

Sounds like a real tragedy there. The site makes people notice the photography, not the design of the site itself. Oh, the horror...

(Sarcasm aside, sounds like the Smugmug designers achieved their goal, since they said during the launch that they wanted the site to step back and showcase the photos.

Maybe a workaround is to upload 30 black rectangles with different filenames to use as placeholders while you design.)

1 upvote
Tandua
By Tandua (9 months ago)

very very nice I like it

1 upvote
Spectro
By Spectro (9 months ago)

everything is starting to look like 500px. I have 500px and flickr so I won't jump on smugmug. But if I didn't have any commitment to those other 2 then this is an good option. Selling high volume photo is were smugmug has been though. Iti sthat flickr forum is more interesting too, just way more people and physical people I know on there.

0 upvotes
CalBoy87
By CalBoy87 (9 months ago)

"This usually just takes a minute or two, but it could take longer. This page will automatically refresh when we're finished, but feel free to browse to other web pages and come back later. We'll also notify you via email when we're done."

Longer is right....3.5 hrs and counting. Also, as Flickr now has no limits, I can't see many reasons to pay 40$/year for few more features. Looks nice, but not 40$ nicer to me.

0 upvotes
JackM
By JackM (9 months ago)

When an online service is "free", YOU are the product being sold.

5 upvotes
Bill Bentley
By Bill Bentley (9 months ago)

Paid sites do it too. Plus, Flickr lets you set permissions on your photos similar to 500px and others. I'll take free and 1TB of online storage for the risk.

0 upvotes
John McCormack
By John McCormack (9 months ago)

The Slideshow module in the new version doesn't show captions for my images and copying the Slideshow link for emailing to others results in a display of the OLD slideshow module - which does display captions. Hopefully, this is just a bug for now. I sent an email to the Help desk about this. And, yes, I have published my site officially.

0 upvotes
dclivejazz
By dclivejazz (9 months ago)

I noticed the lack of captions, too, but didn't see where to send such bugs. Also, I noticed that if you click through large versions of your pictures in Organizing mode, the left and right arrows are backwards. You have to click the left arrow to scroll to the right, for example.

I would also like to replace the image displayed on the home page that represents a gallery in some way besides changing the first picture of the gallery, but I haven't figure that out yet. Overall, though, it looks like it will look much better once I get used to it.

0 upvotes
semorg
By semorg (9 months ago)

The new SmugMug is awesome and it's finally up to level of the best portfolio sites. I can't wait to update my site. I'm sure with everyone rushing out to make the changes it's probably putting a tremendous pressure on their servers.

2 upvotes
Nathaniel George Weir
By Nathaniel George Weir (9 months ago)

Words cannot describe how excited this smug mug update makes me feel :D hahahh!!!! For once I will be proud and excited about my business account website and there are so many templates that I wish I could change it every day haha! Anyways wish I could talk more about the website, got to get back to designing the website again :)

http://www.nathanielweirphotography.smugmug.com

3 upvotes
Iskender
By Iskender (9 months ago)

You may want to edit that link if it goes to that "business" account. Otherwise that could be considered spam.

0 upvotes
alexzn
By alexzn (9 months ago)

In my experience the redesign is a disaster, because it breaks the continuity with the old site and there is no obvious way to keep the structure. if you have large heavily structured site, you need to essentially rebuild from the ground up. For a pro-oriented site this is rather amateurish. The customization instructions also are not very clear.

6 upvotes
spiritdog
By spiritdog (9 months ago)

How much experience have you had with it? I did not see a link to your site in your profile.

2 upvotes
Kinematic Digit
By Kinematic Digit (9 months ago)

I almost left Smug Mug and they seemed to have addressed my number one concern (they also gave me a wicked discount for my pro account).

Yes price is up there, but if you need to make micro client sites, this is about the best game out there. Now it's even easier.

I hope the ecomm side of it has been improved as well. Much better than 500px in that regards, but a little confusing from the client side of things.

0 upvotes
ARB1
By ARB1 (9 months ago)

Anyone using Pbase that has switched to Smugmug? I have been with Pbase for years and their templets are sad and limited, perhaps it's time for a change.

3 upvotes
Lucas_
By Lucas_ (9 months ago)

I was with Pbase for a couple of years and changed to Smugmug about four years ago, mainly because I didn't like Pbase's GUI at the time. I was now tempted to move to 500px but this new Smugmug will definitely avoid me to do that!

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Shamael
By Shamael (9 months ago)

Pbase is a good site, or better said, was a good site. It is fast to use, but, it is showing clearly that those who run it have no more interest, except making money. No good predefined templates, no updates of the camera database, except sometimes for Nikon Gear. I loved to find a camerabrand and type, look at full sized shots to get an idea of the quality, but all that is over, since many years, Pbase does nuts on their platform to keep it up to date.

So, I seriously seek for another platform, and my main concern is speed, I live in the jungle, and here, Internet is similar to what it was when we connected by phone, 25 years ago. One of the reasons why i asked DPR why we have to click 3 to 4 times and change the page to see finally what we look for. Not all of us use Gigabit dsl connections. I can get a coffee between every page I open. Flickr is the most horrible, i wait sometimes more than 15 minutes to see one picture.

0 upvotes
Michael Foran
By Michael Foran (9 months ago)

Thank God. Their site was the WORST. I haven't tried the new site but anything has to be better.

1 upvote
PicOne
By PicOne (9 months ago)

For a 27 minute launch Press Release video.. see here:
http://www.ustream.tv/smugmug

1 upvote
JC999
By JC999 (9 months ago)

Any opinions on how it compares to Zenfolio?

0 upvotes
Bill Bentley
By Bill Bentley (9 months ago)

Zenfolio has more themes but they all pretty much look alike to me. Smugmug has a very nice array of themes. I think if you are going to be paying a significant amount of money for hosting at one of these sites it comes down to who has the best print sales solution from front to back. Smugmug seems to have done quite well in that regard over the years.

1 upvote
delastro
By delastro (9 months ago)

I like zenfolio more because it is simple and very good for amateurs and professionals. they made good changes in the past and I hope they stay because I like the good possibilities to include my photos from zenfolio in other websites because you can work with watermark in a very intelligent way and the shop is fine too.

0 upvotes
John De Bord Photography
By John De Bord Photography (9 months ago)

Been with zenfolio for years and love it & they haven't screwed their customers like smugmug has either with price increases.

0 upvotes
William Porter
By William Porter (9 months ago)

Zenfolio is now significantly cheaper for pros who sell prints and other products. Zenfolio's top plan is $250, offers access to Mpix Pro and some other small benefits, but for many part-time pros the ZF $120 plan is adequate, and in fact it has 2 big advantages over the otherwise-comparable $150 SM plan: The $120 ZF plan lets you create multiple price lists and also allows for proofing delay (so you can upload lower-res, not fully-edited files, then replace them with high-res fully-edited files when customer places order). If I'm reading the new SmugMug features comparison chart right, you'd have to get the $300 plan at SM to have those two key features.

But if you're actually making money as a pro, the $180/year price difference isn't a huge deal. And the new SmugMug — to me anyway — LOOKS a lot nicer. Nicer than Zenfolio, and a lot nicer than the old SmugMug.

May change my mind in next 14 days. Need to see how easy it is to customize new SmugMug. Used to be a CSS nightmare.

0 upvotes
photogeek
By photogeek (9 months ago)

Obvious question: how does it compare to 500px.com?

0 upvotes
Bill Bentley
By Bill Bentley (9 months ago)

From the looks of it Smugmug have 24 portfolio templates. 500px just has 7. They have been very slow in bringing new ones out. I bought a 500px membership when they had their New Year 50% off promo. It's been okay, but I won't be renewing. I've actually started using my Flikr account again after about a 5 year hiatus.

0 upvotes
graybalanced
By graybalanced (9 months ago)

Kinda depends on what you want. 500px is probably stronger for portfolios and "community" (people leaving token "Great Shot!" comments just so they can leave a spammy link to their pics).

But Smugmug has a much deeper feature set that isn't obvious from the surface view. If you are selling or doing jobs/events for clients, 500px isn't even in the same league.

Comment edited 38 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
D200_4me
By D200_4me (9 months ago)

They're currently in maintenance mode at the moment. Some bugs to work out I guess. http://status.smugmug.com/

0 upvotes
D200_4me
By D200_4me (9 months ago)

OK it's back up now ;-) Still tweaking my site. Lots of nice features and easier to customize.

1 upvote
TLD
By TLD (9 months ago)

The image hosting sites all seem to be determined to stuff things up. Flickr is a disaster now, for instance.

0 upvotes
Bill Bentley
By Bill Bentley (9 months ago)

Funny, I never liked Flickr until they just completed their recent overhaul. Now I'm back on there. The pictures are displayed much better now imo. Overall it's quite similar to 500px imo. I'm sure that was who they were trying to copy.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/billbentley/

1 upvote
Valterj
By Valterj (9 months ago)

A bit pricey for my taste: PORTFOLIO - $150/yr

0 upvotes
Heliconius
By Heliconius (9 months ago)

15TB free storage space+weird interface vs cool looks+paid service.

0 upvotes
HobbiesAreFun
By HobbiesAreFun (9 months ago)

I'm enjoying the update, even for my $40 basic account. Looks much better than it did before. However, though more attractive, the interface is a little laggy and not entirely intuitive (though that hasn't changed).

0 upvotes
String
By String (9 months ago)

I like it! Sure beats writing custom HTML code to set up custom banners and stuff. Well done!

4 upvotes
Gesture
By Gesture (9 months ago)

Sites on pBase always look better to me. They have a real photo interface that it seems users can customize well?

2 upvotes
graybalanced
By graybalanced (9 months ago)

No, PBase is in the dark ages of the Web. Smugmug customization controls have always been far ahead of PBase. More options. With the redesign, Smugmug is now up to current HTML5 Web standards. PBase is still stuck in the 2000s.

3 upvotes
onlooker
By onlooker (9 months ago)

> Smugmug is now up to current HTML5 Web standards

Right. When it loads, it looks like crap (areas and text overlapping each other), and still no way to bookmark a specific image. No, thanks. I will take pbase in a heartbeat.

2 upvotes
rondhamalam
By rondhamalam (9 months ago)

Looks similar to Flickr.

5 upvotes
andyb949
By andyb949 (9 months ago)

Looks really nice. Dare I say it's what Flickr should have been.

1 upvote
angrywhtman
By angrywhtman (9 months ago)

Looks like a nice update making it easier to build and maintain a site. This said, I think $300 a year plus 15% or thereabouts commission paid back each sale to SmugMug is a bit excessive. Of course, if you're generating a lot of business $300 is nothing in the grand scheme of things. I wasn't selling $300 a year in prints so it was a no brainer for me, I nixed my site.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
String
By String (9 months ago)

Personal custom site is $60/yr, Pro Site is $150/yr and Corporate Site is $300/yr and a Basic Site is only $40/yr.

The $60/yr site is great and the $150/yr site gives you pretty well everything you would need with the exception of allowing custom marketing tools, client login access to the whole site and a couple other minor items.

2 upvotes
Mescalamba
By Mescalamba (9 months ago)

Only issues with that thing is that there are free services.. maybe not always better, but when its free..

0 upvotes
Peter A. Stavrakoglou
By Peter A. Stavrakoglou (9 months ago)

I really like the changes they've made. Now, if I could only access my SmugMug homepage then I could check out the customization features. Maybe their servers are overwhelmed at the moment.

0 upvotes
Mark B.
By Mark B. (9 months ago)

The full Business option used to be $150 up until last fall. They doubled the price and renamed it; then added the $150 Portfilio.

1 upvote
MikeMiami
By MikeMiami (9 months ago)

Can't even use Enable right-click protection on your images in Basic subscription? So any photos I post can be stolen? No thanks!

0 upvotes
hondav21098
By hondav21098 (9 months ago)

I have had smugmug for about 8 years , I had a look at new but it was all a bit frustrating trying to sort it out so my just stay with the old as i like it and it works .

0 upvotes
cannonman1
By cannonman1 (7 months ago)

The changes on Smug mug make me feel like a mug,I've paid my money to have my work and photos displayed on their web site. For a while the layout was very good Clean and easy to nav then ,along came the new poorly rolled out changes and I find myself spending lots of MY TIME sorting out SMUGMUG' mess,WHATS THAT ALL ABOUT????? ,folders missing!!!WHAT A PILE OF JUNK the whole thing is OTT and even with the tools it's nothing to sing and dance about, ONLY WANT TO SHOW PHOTOS TO THE FAMILY just keep it simple, SMUGMUG time to leave and spend my money else where which should be going in your pockets you fools..

Comment edited 6 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Total comments: 75