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Just posted: Our Canon EOS 70D hands-on preview

By dpreview staff on Jul 2, 2013 at 04:00 GMT
Buy on GearShopFrom $1,099.008 deals

Just posted: Our hands-on preview of Canon's latest mid-range SLR, the EOS 70D. From the outside it looks very similar to the EOS 60D, but on the inside it sports a brand-new 'Dual Pixel CMOS AF' sensor that promises much-improved focusing in live view and movie mode. It also borrows most of the best bits of Canon's existing SLRs, including the AF module from the EOS 7D, the articulated touchscreen from the EOS 700D, and built-in Wi-Fi from the EOS 6D. In our detailed preview we take a closer look, and try to get to grips with its innovative sensor technology.

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238
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40
I had it
Discuss in the forums

Comments

Total comments: 359
12
Klipsi
By Klipsi (9 months ago)

I just returned from 7.5 weeks adventure travel in the U.S. heartland ( www.twisterfiddler.com ) and had to buy me a second camera ( to my 600D with Magic Lantern ). I was hesitating between another 600D / T3i or upgrade to 700D T5i. I love the cropzoom in video on the T3i. And I miss it on the T5i. But I like the T5i's for stereo and 5fps. So in the end I went for the T5i. It was 899 $ in Walmart or BestBuy with the cheap plastic kit STM 18-55 . I wanted it body-only ( I have the lenses I need) but none of the shops I visited would have it, and I could not order it online and wait to be shipped because I was travelling erratic and never knew where I would be next day. But with lots of luck, and some luck, I found a great deal : one BestBuy shop had a 5Ti that was unboxed and had been a display sample for 2 weeks. New, but unboxed and display-ed with. They offered it at 799 instead of 899. I offered 699 - body only, without lens. We finally found agreement : 725 $ WITH the STM.

0 upvotes
Klipsi
By Klipsi (9 months ago)

... that said, I miss the crop-zoom on the T5i , and I miss the 'quick mode' autofocus in video.
... and, THAT said, now for the all-new 70D : I might get it next year, after Magic Lantern upgrade. But maybe I'll stick with yet another T3i / 600D. That x3-x10 cropzoom in video is simply awesome. my 15-85 IS lens becomes a 15-850 IS lens. Too bad they dropped that cropzoom. sure there is a loss of IQ in the x6-to x10 range but from x3 to x5 nope, nada, zero.

Comment edited 6 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
JackM
By JackM (9 months ago)

Good story Klipsi.

0 upvotes
Nightwings
By Nightwings (9 months ago)

Thanks for the clarification. My P510 has a similar wheel. I don't mind using it at all.

0 upvotes
Nightwings
By Nightwings (9 months ago)

I shoot Nikon and know NOTHING about Canon. Hence the seemingly dumb question:

How come a camera good enough for a top LCD, doesn't have a second command dial? The only one I see is on the top right front - Or - is that round knurled wheel I see on the lower right of the LCD some sort of command dial/wheel as welll?

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Yes, there is a wheel for your thumb and a dial for your index finger. The 70D like the 60D doesn't have the joystick that was found on the 50D and is still found on the 7D. That's one thing that was lost transitioning the XXD line to a lower tier and the 7D to the higher tier APS-C segments.

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

the Canon one is easier to operate with gloves (I don't think it's a better design but that's one of the differences).

0 upvotes
frankje
By frankje (9 months ago)

It seems to me that a major drawback of this system is that it will only work in one direction. It wil focus on vertical lines, not on horizontal lines.
I think therefore that Canon has to re-design this sensor so that it can focus in both horizontal and vertical direction.

1 upvote
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

With that many phase detection points of that size there will likely be enough detail in almost any scene and at almost any point to determine phase shift. Compared to standard autofocus systems with surprisingly few points of detection used for either horizontal or vertical sensitivity, the pixel-level phase detection should require much less detail or will simply be sensitive to much smaller details.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

a quad-pixel design should be better,
in both AF performance and image quality.

but for the same 80.80M photodiodes,
I'd rather prefer 40.4MP dual-pixels over 20.2MP quad-ones.
or probably a 20.2MP high frame rate 7D3 (12 fps?) and
a 40.4MP low frame rate 80D (6 fps?)

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 1 minute after posting
0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

In real world use, you're never going to shoot an object entirely composed of only horizontal lines that run *perfectly* parallel (and undetectable) with all those diodes. So in real world usage, it should work perfectly fine. As howardroark alluded to, it's the sheer quantity, density, and tiny size of all those diodes that should make them so effective against both vertical or horizontal lines. If any subject line runs askew of any of those diodes, the diodes will be able to detect it. Or think of it another way: if (unlikely as it may be) you have a subject composed entirely of horizontal lines that really is undetectable to the extremely dense diode array, just tilt the camera a bit and the lines are no longer parallel with the diode array, thus making it detectable! That's actually a trick from the days of single-line AF sensors in SLR cameras. But I doubt you'd ever need to do that with the Dual Pixel CMOS, which is literally blanketed with pixel-level AF detectors.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 14 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

I learned how to shoot only with manual focus using a split prism and micro-prism focus screen. I'd imagine that it isn't all that easy to split a pixel in half for the phase detection trick, and in all likelihood it took quite a bit of technology development to do it without losing image quality or while improving image quality. The process isn't exactly clear right now, but since all indications are that the sensor treats each pixel as one during image capture I'd bet that there isn't enough processing power to read each half all the time. Looking at a small array of pixels and determining their phase is probably very processor intensive and then offloading each one separately might be impossible if some of that information is processed before it even gets off the chip. A quad pixel version might be possible one day, but they are all still under one color filter and one microlens. The big push here is to get as much light into a pixel as possible to keep noise down/IQ up.

Comment edited 56 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
frankje
By frankje (9 months ago)

I think that a quad-pixel version is not necessary. When half of the pixels would be split horizontally and the other half vertically it could focus in both directions.
And, T3, why are DSLR manufacturers making cross-type PD sensors if you just have to tilt your camera a little when your subject is a vertical or near-vertical line?

0 upvotes
maynardac
By maynardac (9 months ago)

This is definitely a 7D killer

0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Fortunately the 7DII should be right around the corner.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

but not a D7100 killer in AF performance.
hope 7D2 can catch up.

1 upvote
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

No, the 4 year old 7D was already superior to the D7100 AF system because instead of having 15 cross-type sensors all right in the center like the D7100 it has 19 cross-top covering a large area of the frame. Also, having pixel-level sensitivity to phase, tracking can theoretically be much more accurate than any standard PDAF system on the market today. Yab doesn't understand a single thing about sensors, AF, or cameras in general. All of his posts from the time he came to this site demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of how sensors behave and are evaluated. Ignoring his nonsense is the best course of action....or even better, read it and go look at evidence (anywhere) that proves it laughably wrong and then ignore him. Last word to you, yab.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

oh dear, I should not enjoy seeing a person go mad.

2 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Nor should you revel in your ignorance.

2 upvotes
Dougbm_2
By Dougbm_2 (9 months ago)

D Preview. Enough with the previews. Give me a with a full review only please. I can wait. I am not interested to read the preview and review.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

a review costs much more than a preview,
which is little more than copying the specs.

1 upvote
AusPhil
By AusPhil (9 months ago)

Just don't read the preview......

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

this 70D preview got some extra paragraphs to explain the new sensor, which should worth reading if contains no error.

0 upvotes
Ubilam
By Ubilam (9 months ago)

It smells like a 7D wannabe and is really just a 60D upgrade. 98% viewfinder? That says much. I'll keep my 7D, Mr. Canon. Upper atmosphere ISO's on a crop factor camera will always be suspect and don't sell me. How many users will be sending in there cams due to broken off screens? No thanks.

0 upvotes
Timmbits
By Timmbits (9 months ago)

well, apparently, it's a hell of a lot faster than 2009 technology

perhaps what you really want is a FF but want it for cheap?

4 upvotes
QuarryCat
By QuarryCat (9 months ago)

you wan't see the difference between 98% and 100%!
A bigger Screen is only possible with Fullframe 6D or 5D3.
The 7D is now in the dust.

1 upvote
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

I''ve yet to see anyone ever be hindered or adversely effected by having a 98% viewfinder vs a 100% viewfinder. If anything, a 98% viewfinder just results in you capturing a bit more image area than you intended, which gives you flexibility with image cropping and image straightening later in post. In other words, it gives you a bit of wiggle room, which is an advantage! Better to have a little too much in your image than too little, or nothing extra to work with.

As for your predictions of "broken off screens"...I've yet to hear of that being an issue, even after countless millions of swivel screen cameras have been sold and put into circulation. Fearmongers used to say the similar things about pop-up flashes: they'd brake off, and you can't weatherseal them! Then the weathersealed near-pro-level 7D came out with a pop-up flash, and that shut people up! So stop with the irrational, baseless, overblown FUD already. It's just a bunch of BS.

Comment edited 58 seconds after posting
8 upvotes
Ubilam
By Ubilam (9 months ago)

Folks like you TKO, make this place nasty. Your army of 'likes soldiers' is evident through-out this place. Bite me. I offered an opinion and you attack me at any opportunity. You are a bloated self important troll attacking anybody you don't agree with. Get a life.

0 upvotes
Gully Foyle
By Gully Foyle (9 months ago)

It's very confusing that comments are possible in both the announcement and the preview! Make it for one or the other so we are able to keep track of our posts and dialogues and not having to click back and forth between pages!
Please DPR, it only makes sense!

5 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

often we create new problems while solving the old.
so just keep it simple stupid.

0 upvotes
Gully Foyle
By Gully Foyle (9 months ago)

I'm waiting for the day that some mfg will at last drop the "secondary" (i.e current) AF sensor, and use the imaging sensor for all AF. It's obvious we're very near.
Then, for instance, Canon can reestablish the Pellix with a pentaprism VF.
Or, maybe Nikon, might ditch the mirror altogether, like the K-01, and sport an EVF. Or Pentax who took this (bold but unfortunate) first step.
Or maybe SONY, already having a similar technology, does something like that.

The fact is that this development, credited to Fuji, is nearing perfection. It will be a real shame if they don't exploit its full potential.

Kudos to Canon which, at last, proved our doubts wrong.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 9 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Bob Meyer
By Bob Meyer (9 months ago)

Take a look at every m43 camera. They have no mirror, have been using the imaging sensor for AF since day one, and provide more accurate AF than any DSLR. (except maybe Sony with the translucent mirror).

Canon is playing catch up.

3 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

@Bob Meyer - but Canon is doing it with an APS-C sensor, which is much larger than m4/3. So while Canon may be "playing catch up" in the AF department, m4/3 will always be a much smaller format than APS-C. We may also eventually see a Canon FF mirrorless system, too. I use m4/3, but I also use Canon DSLRs. I've been waiting for Canon to get its act together with mirrorless, and now with their Dual Pixel CMOS, I have a lot of optimism for Canon's mirrorless system(s). This probably means I'll stop investing in m4/3 and wait for the next generation Canon mirrorless body. I still like m4/3, but I like the idea of having some cross-compatibility with my Canon EOS gear.

In the long run, I think we'll look back and see that when it came to mirrorless, Canon started late, caught up, then surpassed the competition. I guess it's the tortoise vs the hare strategy.

0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Bob, ILC cameras don't provide more accuracte AF than any DSLR. They use contrast detect AF just like a DSLR in Live View, and that method of AF doesn't rely on any external sensor that must be in perfect orientation and calibration to focus correctly. Since the actual image is used as a test for sharp focus, it will always be the most accurate method of focus.

0 upvotes
RS_RS
By RS_RS (9 months ago)

On p.5 of the preview there is a shot of what is under the cover of the MIC and release sockets. What is the curious little cutout next to the release socket for?

Comment edited 21 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
FreedomLover
By FreedomLover (9 months ago)

The only reason not to have optional optical image stabilisation (OIS) in the body is to make more money with lenses.

Canon, like Nikon, is systematically selling cameras purposely crippled at every level.

Really good, uncrippled cameras that are made with all the best technology available, like the OMD-EM5 and the RX100 are selling like hot cakes, so crippling is not necessary for marketing reasons, it is just done out of pure greed, and the results are showing.

No wonder disappointed brand fans are fighting each other like hooligans in bad football matches here.

If you want beautiful skin tones without yellow-green banding, buy Pentax or Olympus instead.

3 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

We appreciate the commercial, but I'll pass.

7 upvotes
AlanG
By AlanG (9 months ago)

Freedomlover - Pretty far off subject aren't you?

Comment edited 24 seconds after posting
5 upvotes
AkinaC
By AkinaC (9 months ago)

OMD and RX100 are with much smaller sensor is that crippling too?

Don't forget OMD at start are expensive as mid-range APS-C DSLR, and RX100 is slightly more expensive than entry mirrorless/DSLR....

1 upvote
Gully Foyle
By Gully Foyle (9 months ago)

~Lover...
Man, you're all over the place! What's your point(s)???

BTW, have you ever looked through an OVF and an OIS lens? And then through an OVF with sensor IS? Try it and you'll realize it's definitely on purpose, but for totally different reasons than you claim.

2 upvotes
FreedomLover
By FreedomLover (9 months ago)

Gully Foyle, how can there be a problem when you can choose when to enable it?

Usually I use displays when using in-body OIS.

Obviously you are all over the place too :-)

0 upvotes
M DeNero
By M DeNero (9 months ago)

There's also the fact in-lens IS works better, optimized for each lens. And you can see the effect thru the viewfinder as others more rational than yourself have noted.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
King Penguin
By King Penguin (9 months ago)

In body stabilisation? That's like bicycle stabilisers isn't it......you don't need it when you how to ride a bike!

1 upvote
AlanG
By AlanG (9 months ago)

Who the heck cares if Nikon or Sony got enough credit for this or that? Or who has the most resolution or the least noise? All that matters is that this is quite an advance in technology. And it will be incorporated in numerous sensors going forward.

For video use, besides the obvious AF feature, perhaps focus pullers will be using remote touch screens for follow focus. Smart focus tracking technology will also be developed. Video work does not use the optical viewfinder so models targeting video can eliminate this.

For stills, it will accelerate the transition to EVF cameras now that the focus speed hurdle has been removed. (Assuming comparable performance.) This will result in smaller lighter cameras that will be easier to manufacture.

Comment edited 59 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
Francis Carver
By Francis Carver (9 months ago)

You simply cannot use a DSLR's OVF in video mode. No need to sugar coat this sad, sad fact. So, now you have to set focus using a 3-inch screen, or else try doing that wirelessly on your cell phone. Neither are very good alternatives, I fear.

0 upvotes
taffytubby
By taffytubby (9 months ago)

Seems more people would rather type drivel than take photos. It's a good camera. Please just go out and impress us all with your photographic genius instead of whining about this and that.

8 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

I'd like to go out and shoot people in the dark.
just give me a 70D.

0 upvotes
tesch
By tesch (9 months ago)

When Canon creates a sensor with built in phase detection it's considered revolutionary. But when Sony does it, like on the A99, it's just another gimmick. All hail Canon!

4 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

we are doing it at a small cost of image quality (caused by losing of light). the new Canon sensor can do it with higher image quality (SNR boosted through readout of smaller/dimmer pixels), and can do through out the image frame (the 80% limit is because of large error in peripheral areas).

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 7 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Tonio Loewald
By Tonio Loewald (9 months ago)

Well, Nikon did it on the 1-series and got totally bagged over everything else about the cameras. The fact is if you can get a DSLR (vs. giant DSLR-shaped pellicle) with useful phase detect AF in live view it will be revolutionary.

It's sad for Nikon users that Nikon did video first but Canon ran with it, and now Nikon does PD AF on sensor first and it looks like Canon is running with that too. I wish Canon would just switch to Nikon-style dual dial controls and I could just jump ship.

The PD AF will probably migrate down through the entire Canon line, too, so we'll have fast AF on the successor to the 100D.

I hope Nikon releases a D600 successor with PD on sensor AF, built-in WiFi, and the better AF (and no oil on the sensor).

2 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

So the A99 has 19 traditional PDAF sensors and a 102 AF assist array. Canon has put PD AF on its newer 18MP sensors, too, but nothing like this new one. Since the new Canon sensor has 80% vertical and horizontal coverage with its on-sensor PDAF system that gives it 4377X2918 points, for a total of 12,772,086 on-sensor PDAF points. I'm sure it takes arrays of pixels to have any kind of meaningful PDAF readings, so divide that by...8 sound good? So maybe 1,596,510 AF points? I'm sure the AF routine is much more complex than I could ever guess, but suffice it to say this Canon system is different from the Sony system all while not putting a stupid fixed mirror in front of the sensor.

3 upvotes
Gully Foyle
By Gully Foyle (9 months ago)

tesch, you're over-simplifying things. SONY like everybody else until now (including Canon with the EOS-M), copied Fuji's technology which offered a two stage way of focusing, using both PDAF and CDAF to help each other. Canon does something totally different. It's by convention that it's called 'sensor PDAF' and not for the technology involved. So yes, hail Canon, as Fuji was hailed back then for their original idea.

0 upvotes
Bob Meyer
By Bob Meyer (9 months ago)

The real question is how well will it work. Sony's on-chipt PDAF is mediocre, at best, so they still rely on the separate PDAF sensor for primary focusing. Nikon's N1 PDAF relies on the huge DOF of the sensor to compensate for its limitations. Will Canon's work better? Too soon to tell.

0 upvotes
57even
By 57even (9 months ago)

If you had a choice between better live view AF and better DR and noise performance, which would you choose?

0 upvotes
utomo99
By utomo99 (9 months ago)

is there any choice like this ?
If any, I choose less Noise and Better DR

1 upvote
davidgp
By davidgp (9 months ago)

live view af performance

1 upvote
Jurka
By Jurka (9 months ago)

I am video shooter, first choose OIS, then AF, then DR, then depth of field.

0 upvotes
57even
By 57even (9 months ago)

I guess the responses prove what I suspected. Stills and video shooters want different cameras.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

70D got both, much better live view AF and much better image quality (SNR) in a simple and natural solution.

0 upvotes
Jurka
By Jurka (9 months ago)

Canon OIS is very poor for video, not on the par with Pana.

0 upvotes
BJL
By BJL (9 months ago)

@yabokkie: what do we know about the DR, SNR etc. of the 70D compared to what other brands are currently offering? All we know so far is what Canon says about noise in comparison to its own previous sensors, and I have seen nothing about its DR and low ISO performance.

0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Yab believes the number of pixels directly relates to noise, DR, and detail resolution according to very predictable mathematical calculations. There is no variable in his equations for the technology used to construct the pixel, circuitry, color filter array, AA filter, or even supporting on-chip or off chip electronics, so cram as many as you can on there and image quality will necessarily increase.

Comment edited 48 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

@BJL, we know the image quality will be improved by packing much more pixels into the sensor. exactly how much, and how it will compare with other cameras we'll have to see (DPR works with DxO which is one of good references).

0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Compare the SX50 to the 7D to the 5DIII on DxO. As pixel density drops S/N goes up, DR goes up, color sensitivity goes up, tonal range goes up. DR really doesn't change all that much, but S/N is greatly improved with lower pixel density. Yab you and the "I want infinite pixels" gang need to get real. The lens has a finite ability to resolve detail and as pixels get smaller they get noisier. What is it with you and ult and the crowd of tiny pixel worshippers?

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

> As pixel density drops S/N goes up,

what pixel density and what SNR in what conditions?

> as pixels get smaller they get noisier.

so you are talking about pixel quality and I'm talking about image quality. lower the pixel quality (by packing more pixels into the sensor) higher the image quality. one should be able to see the trend through the development of digital sensors over a decade (I see 3 decades from 1980s, some know more).

Comment edited 6 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Brutal, man. The funny thing about trends is they aren't usually constant and linear, and when it comes to optics you can't apply the same trends that works for semiconductors. A sensor isn't just processing bits, it's interacting with light. As noise goes up image quality goes down. In other words, if the sensor can't tell you what it saw with accuracy you are getting more static than signal.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

you say you don't have a clue,
I say I have no problem.

0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

And yet you have no intelligent way to quantify your assertion that more MP is always better. I used actual test results to refute your ludicrous statements, but was told image quality tests were arguing another point from sensor quality. Enjoy being right without any way to test for it.

0 upvotes
Lyn2010
By Lyn2010 (9 months ago)

I am just thinking about buying a Tamron Macro lens. But.... will it work on the EOS 70D? The success of 70D will partly depend on the compatibility of Canon lenses and other lenses (Tamron, Sigma). Or are we going to buy new lenses too? I don't!

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
1 upvote
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

Third-party lens makers have done a pretty good job of maintaining lens compatibility. Besides, while Canon is improving their AF system, they haven't changed how that AF system communicates with the lens. Frankly, I don't remember the last time Canon introduced a new body that killed compatibility with third-party lenses, resulting in people having to "buy new lenses". I think that's just unfounded hysteria.

3 upvotes
pidera
By pidera (9 months ago)

Any EF-S lenses out there resolving 20 MP (or even 18 MP) ?

0 upvotes
Stollen1234
By Stollen1234 (9 months ago)

yes..the Idea of 12 MP is better is an old one...

3 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

overwhelming sensor resolution is needed to squeeze the last bit of resolution from lenses and 20.2MP is not enough.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
1 upvote
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

That's not true, yab. If you look at lens tests on DxO and compare some very high end lenses on different bodies, full frame bodies can get more resolution from those lenses than the 7D can. That means that the lens is outresolving the sensor and despite having a greater pixel density the full frame can get more detail. At every aperture and every focal length the 5DIII outresolves the 7D using the 70-200 f/2.8L IS II.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

@howardroark you are talking about something totally different. the fact you have to talk something irrelevant tells that you cannot argue in straight.

sensors have to outresolve lenes many times to get near 100% of the performance out of the lens. the more the better but the improvement may not be easily visible.

basically the combined-resotution =
1/ (1/sensor-resolution + 1/lens-resolution),
it approaches lens resolution when sensor resolution becomes infinity.

Comment edited 6 times, last edit 10 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Talking about real world results is not relevant? LOL You do the math and I'll stick with what a system can really do.

0 upvotes
pidera
By pidera (9 months ago)

@Stollen1234 : Yeah you tell me, I'm working at 36MP. No, I was talking about the lenses. EF-S lenses in particular.

0 upvotes
Donnie G
By Donnie G (9 months ago)

Sometimes we just have to let the pixel peepers have their way. To them, the notion of a few smarter pixels being able to do better work than adding a bizillion more pixels to the sensor could, just doesn't compute. So let them call Canon's 20mp sensor a 40 if that's what it takes to make them feel good about wanting to own one. I doubt that Canon will be offended.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

whatever you say the 40M pixels on the sensor significantly boosted image qualtiy, how much let's wait and see DxOMark SNR test.

it's very difficult to have same good image quality with less pixels. though we don't have enough resolutions either, image quality (SNR, or high ISO, low light as some call it) is the biggest driving factor behind the MP fight.

0 upvotes
ChicagoRob
By ChicagoRob (9 months ago)

Yeah, you really need 20-40 MP to make those giant 4x6 prints for Aunt Sally, or those 1 MP files for web use. I'll bet 90% of the whiners, here, don't even print their files, so the MP count is meaningless.

4 upvotes
Stollen1234
By Stollen1234 (9 months ago)

are you saying 3MP could be better than 12 MP or 20 MP???
if technology advances increasing the MP could also be a good factor

1 upvote
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

@Stollen1234 - the ability for a higher resolution sensor to actually display higher resolution is dependent on your final output size. If you're doing an 11x14 print, you're not really going to see much difference in quality between a 12mp sensor and a 20mp sensor. The larger you print, the more resolution becomes beneficial. But unless you actually do those larger prints, the extra resolution is wasted. So a more accurate statement would be to say that more megapixels means bigger print sizes, rather than saying more megapixels means better image quality. Consider that even when displaying an image on a huge 4K Ultra High Definition display, the resolution of that 4K display is only 3840 x 2160 (8.3 megapixels, aspect ratio 16:9).

So unless you're displaying your photos in huge format, you can just relax about all this megapixel hysteria. And pixel peeping is not how real people view real images in the real world.

3 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

> if technology advances increasing the MP could also be a good factor

actually we have to increase the MP for better image quality because that part of technology got no improvement.

0 upvotes
massimogori
By massimogori (9 months ago)

Whenever this dslr is not used as dslr, we can expect high performances... Well done, Canon.!

0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

It's not as if the 70D is going to be a slouch in "DSLR" mode. I've had a 60D in heavy rotation ever since the 60D was introduced, and it's worked like a champ. The notion that any of today's modern DSLR bodies don't offer a high level of performance is just plain silly, because any of today's modern DSLR bodies could easily go toe-to-toe, and/or exceed, any number of pro bodies from eras past, and even very recent past. The reality is that tyros, newbies, and wannabe's are all too quick to blame the equipment, when in reality the true deficiencies are with the person behind the camera. People like yourself are all too quick to say that they don't take good pictures because their DSLR doesn't deliver "high performance", when in reality today's DSLRs pack an enormous level of high performance. It just goes to show, haters are always gonna hate, and whiners are always gonna whine.

17 upvotes
Christoph v Ballmoos
By Christoph v Ballmoos (9 months ago)

I agree about the " blaming equipment part", but...
I had a 50D, than a 7D, a 5D, and for a few weeks a 1D3. Guess which camera is my most favorite now? But it is not IQ that makes the differences, although the IQ of both the 5D and 1d3 are superior to the 7D, which has most megapixels and is youngest...

1 upvote
massimogori
By massimogori (9 months ago)

T3, by the same token I do not understand people that jump to their own conclusion based on its own assumptions. The problem at canon is that IQ lags behind the competition. I had a 50D and I was perfectly satisfied with the AF, but you cannot imagine my surprise when I saw the pictures taken with my X-Pro1. It was like recovering the sight from blindness.
That's a fact. And I really do not understand why Canon keeps fiddling with marketing tricks. Take this 70D, for example: only " tyros, newbies, and wannabes" will use it most of the time on live view. The rest of us will use it a DSLR. So what's the point in boosting AF performance in live view if the IQ is subpar? Hope, really hope this is not the case. We will see the tests....

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
1 upvote
massimogori
By massimogori (9 months ago)

...
In any case I have been so tired of this canon approach. If you recall, my 50D was marketed as lights years ahead of the 40D in terms of IQ... Indeed it probably was worse. With the 5D mark III, which is using a slightly improved 5D mark II sensor technology, the major step forward has been in terms of income for Canon. How could they price so high and so unashamedly? Where they too busy in developing a new lens cap or in gluing a 1.4X converter to a tele lens?

Selfishness is probably their problem. Selfishness has been Kodak problem.

1 upvote
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

Sorry, but there are countless Canon-shooting pros around the world who are getting excellent IQ from our Canon bodies. We're delivering excellent IQ to our clients, and "that's a fact", LOL. If you like the IQ of Fuji's sensors so much more, great! But sitting around griping about differences in IQ between the various camera brands is rather silly, IMHO. Whether you're shooting Fuji, or Canon, or Nikon, or Sony, I've seen superb images with superb IQ shot by superb photographers from all these brands. That, too, is "a fact." The idea that a Canon shooter, or a Nikon shooter, or a Sony shooter, is shooting with "sub-par" IQ is just silly.

As for the notion that "only 'tyros, newbies, and wannabes' will use it most of the time on live view", you clearly have shortsighted tunnel vision. Better Live View AF performance is critical for the future, as the world steadily transitions to mirrorless cameras and fewer people want to lug around bulky DSLRs with flapping mirrors.

2 upvotes
massimogori
By massimogori (9 months ago)

T3, why don't you read before writing?

I had Canon bodies and I assure you that with Fuji I had a terrific improvement in quality. The photograph is the same and I guarantee to you that I did not improve my poor technique in the shift from Canon to Fuji.

No wonder that there are trillions of pictures better than mines taken with thousands of different cameras: I am not an experienced pro nor a talented photographer.

Then, the simple reason why live view is not advisable is called "Camera Shake". Hope you are aware of it.

As a demonstration that I know were the world is going, I finally would like to highlight that my fuji is a mirrorless camera. But I wanted to be sure to have not one but two different viewfinder technologies available.

It's because of camera shake... And because somebody may need to concentrate on an image before taking a picture.

0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

@massimogori- "Then, the simple reason why live view is not advisable is called "Camera Shake". Hope you are aware of it."

Clearly, you're not aware that countless numbers of people use Live View every day, with excellent results. For example, every wedding videographer I work with these days is shooting video with a DSLR...and they are all using Live View, with excellent results. As with any camera form factor, it's all a matter of technique, whether you're talking about a DSLR where you're peeping through a hole in the camera, or a Bronica medium format film camera with a waist-level viewfinder, or any digital camera with Live View....use good technique and you can get good results. Live View is also excellent for tripod-mounted shooting, especially if the camera is mounted higher or lower than eye level. So to make the assumption that Live View universally means "Camera Shake" is simply false. It all depends on how you use it.

Comment edited 57 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
massimogori
By massimogori (9 months ago)

You finally wrote something right: live view with tripod does not mean camera shake. How many tourists or street photographer carry a tripod? Do you really believe the market for photography is the wedding? That's a typically (Canon) niche market.

6x6 cameras kept at waist level are supported in three points (two hands and your waist), just like a DSLR (two hands and your head). When you use a camera in live view, without tripod, you are holding it far from your body with just two hands and sometimes with just one hand.

Unless you are physically very different from me.

Would you like to go on or can we stop here?

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Red111
By Red111 (9 months ago)

The 7D AF is nothing to write home about. I have had it for 3 years and have been really hoping for a better upgrade. It's a disappointment if the new 70D is using the old tech. Look at Nikon. Canon needs to give the users some advanced AF capabilities even in these mid range cameras. I guess I'll have to wait for the 7DII.

3 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (9 months ago)

Huh? Look at Nikon for what? The 7D AF has more cross points, better spread, and more significantly, is much more customizable & tuneable than any Nikon AF.

8 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

I believe 7D's AF was bad product planning and I'd like to have 61-point AF with 100k pixel imaging AE on the new 7D2 so that it' can have the privilege to compete with the 6-year old D300.

0 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (9 months ago)

Compete??? The 7D already beat the D300, in terms of # of cross points, triple-precision x-type f/2.8 center sensor, customizability & flexibility. The sales #s also already proved that.

1 upvote
micahmedia
By micahmedia (9 months ago)

What's the chances of getting 40mp output from this sensor? Also, are the pixels all split the same direction? How big of a deal is it if they are? Does AF sensor resolution make up for a lack of cross type sensors?

0 upvotes
Howard
By Howard (9 months ago)

0

6 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

it's already done, or the AF won't be possible.

the question is not readout from the sensor,
but ouput to the SD card, which is not a standard function.
there may be some secret commands or
just wait for a new version of Magic Lantern.

0 upvotes
audijam
By audijam (9 months ago)

Dear DPREVIEW,

Could you please kindly mount Sigma 18-35 f1.8 on a Canon 70D and let us know how is AF speed/accuracy?

Thank you

4 upvotes
Maverick_
By Maverick_ (9 months ago)

I love this new concept, but the real question here is the downside in image quality of a 40MP APS-C sensor. Canon APS-C sensors at 18 MP are obviously wonderful, but jumping that to 40?

I think this new concept will work better in FF and most probably will be applied to the next generations of FF sensors.

0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

It's not a 40mp sensor. Just because the sensor uses split diodes for the purposes of phase detection AF does NOT mean that it outputs a 40mp image. Clearly, Canon states that it is a 20mp sensor. Two diodes combine for one pixel. Where in the world is Canon saying, "Hey, everybody, the new 70D has a 40mp sensor!" No, they don't say that. Why? Because it's not a 40mp sensor. It's a 20mp sensor, which is why they state that it's a 20mp sensor. Because that's what it is. But apparently, people on the internet like to make up their own product specs, LOL. Great, now we're going to have this completely bogus hysteria regarding Canon's "18mp sensor jumping to 40". Gotta love the internet. Haha.

8 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

Canon have a good reason to jump to 40MP: better image quality (higher SNR) to compete with Sony and Nikon. and that high image quality comes with a bonus: new sensor AF.

@T3, it's a 40MP sensor with 20MP output. eventually we'll have thousands of MPs, may be much more than that, on the sensor but the output may not exceed several hundreds of MPs.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

@yabokkie - resolution is rather pointless unless A) you have the lenses that can resolve that resolution and B) you are printing large enough for that resolution to be useful. There's not much point in having 40mp if you're shooting with anything less than the best prime lenses and aren't printing 30x40. And you'd better have a computer powerful enough to handle those massive RAW files that result from a 40mp sensor! So in reality, 40mp does NOT automatically mean better image quality. Real-world image quality is determined by what the final output destination is going to be. A $30,000 4K Ultra HD television has a resolution of 3840 pixels × 2160, which is only 8.3mp. And all that resolution also ends up being downsized for more moderate print sizes. So unless you're regularly printing massive department-store display images of models with flawless skin, or printing wall-sized landscapes, 40MP won't actually give you better image quality that you'll see or use.

2 upvotes
Donnie G
By Donnie G (9 months ago)

T3, sometimes we just have to let the pixel peepers have their way. To them, the notion of a few smarter pixels being able to do better work than just adding more pixels to the sensor just doesn't compute. So let them call Canon's 20mp sensor a 40 if that's what it takes to make them feel good about wanting to own one. I doubt that Canon will be offended.

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

why print when you can have, say 160MP flat panel displays the size of a door or bed?

pixel counts are not for resolution only. pixel size will go smaller well beyond optical resolution because that's the way we can have better image quality (SNR). it's very difficult to do it with less pixels (Canon tried one recently).

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

T3, just quit. He is one of the people who believe there is no limit to what more pixels can do. He doesn't see larger pixels having any advantage. You can't argue with that because he's fixated on one number, one variable as the end all and be all of image quality.

0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

@yabokkie "why print when you can have, say 160MP flat panel displays the size of a door or bed?"

The more you post on this subject, the more ridiculous you sound. LOL. Like I said, a 4K UHDTV display has 8,294,400 pixels (8.3mp). So where is your "160MP flat panel display the size of a door or bed?" And how much does that thing cost? Show me it sitting in your house and then we'll talk. LOL.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

we'll have 8K (33.18MP) pilot broadcast in Japan by 2020. 8K is about the largest for videos that anyone is planning, and it may look perfect for those with normal vision of 1.0 (20/20). if we think there are people who have vision 2.0 and if we take 3D into consideration, it's quite natural to go 16K.

the bottom line is resolution will go beyond the best naked eye, like African hunters. there is a requirement which is 100% feasible.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

"the bottom line is resolution will go beyond the best naked eye, like African hunters. there is a requirement which is 100% feasible."

Yeah, that makes perfect sense...we all need resolution that goes beyond "the best naked eye." LOL. You're crazy.

You've completely left the real world. In the real world, 99.9% of images are viewed and enjoyed at much lower resolutions, on 2K displays, smart phones, tablets, modest print sizes, etc. That's the REAL world we live in, and where no one really cares how many megapixels the original image was shot in. The REALITY is that we've reached such excellent IQ levels that it's the CONTENT and ARTISTIC quality of the image that counts far more than how many pixels its made up of. Chasing more megapixels for the sake of having more megapixels is simply futile, and of far less practical benefit than you seem to realize. Clearly, you're obsessed beyond all rationality, haha.

Oh, and I hope you enjoy processing those massive 40mp RAW files.

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

> that makes perfect sense
that no one will be able to see pixel from designed position (at a certain aov). pixel seen = image not real

well, you can have your standard for yourself. anyways the resolution isn't the point here with 70D. the higher image quality is, which is made possible by the 40MP sensor.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 10 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Tonio Loewald
By Tonio Loewald (9 months ago)

You do realize that all DSLR MPs are overstated by a factor of 4, so a 40MP camera is really a 10MP camera, with the extra data being interpolated. This is the difference between "pixels" and "sensels". Your computer's 1920x1080 pixel display probably has 6 million "dots" (one red, one green, one blue for each "pixel"). The idea that this sensor is 40MP is ridiculous. The values of the two sides of the sensel are not independent, and in particular will be identical for in-focus areas, so you'll have no extra information where the target is in focus. (Read up on how phase detect AF works. It's the difference in the sides that is used to determine focus.)

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
1 upvote
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

I'm with you, T3. When a sensor is boild down just to the number of pixels a lot of other factors are being ignored. Since yab likes DxO he needs to go look at a 5DIII and a 7D with the same lens on each side by side. Detail resolution is better from the 5DIII across the board. Noise is better across the board. That also means as ISO increases detail loss due to noise is much less than the 7D. I love my 7D, but I understand how optics and sensors behave.

2 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

> to go look at a 5DIII and a 7D with the same lens on each side by side.

you are comparing things using different stanards. neither the angle-of-view nor the aperture size will be the same using a same lens, and you will get the result about as different as your different conditions, which is a proof that the cameras are similar, if not the same.

an example of the same AoV and the same aperture maybe
a 100/2 mounted on 70D compared to
a 160/3.2 (using 70-200/2.8LIS2) mounted on 6D.
I bet that 7D performs slight better for a better performing sensor (40MP vs 20MP on sensor).

Comment edited 4 times, last edit 8 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

A lens produces the same angle of view no matter what camera it is on, the same image circle. The only difference is how much of the image circle the camera uses. You obviously don't have the first clue how to compare one camera to another.

0 upvotes
Staxxx
By Staxxx (9 months ago)

Do add taxes to the American prices. The European prices are often quoted including VAT. But this discrepancy always gets brought up with each new model - and never gets solved. The American market is much larger and pricing can be more aggressive, I suppose. The other option is to buy European and stick it for once back to the ...ok ok just kidding !! :)

0 upvotes
DPReview Staff
By DPReview Staff (9 months ago)

Sales taxes across the United States vary by county, and there are ~3,143 counties, each of which can levy a different tax percentage. There is no VAT I've ever heard of, but sales tax varies from 0 to 9 percent in most places I've visited. Buy something from out of state via Internet or 'mail' and you usually pay no tax. So it's a very different animal. Just know that European prices include VAT, and spread the word.

0 upvotes
JRFlorendo
By JRFlorendo (9 months ago)

Base on my experience in the US, if you buy from your local store, they'll tax you between 7% to 8.5%(varies by 50 states) on your $1199 purchase. I purchase my gears from B&H, they don't charge sales tax(save $90), they also don't charge ground shipping(3-5 days, varies by state). So the total damage on your card is exactly $1199.

0 upvotes
gpsgps
By gpsgps (9 months ago)

Is there any logical explanation to the differences in prices in USD, GBP and EUR? Canon 70D with the EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM lens is to cost:
$1549 or
£1399.99 (=$2,130.43) or
€1499 (= $1,953.93).
Are Europeans subsidising American photographers or are just plain ripped off?

0 upvotes
AngryCorgi
By AngryCorgi (9 months ago)

Is it possible that the difference is the result of a VAT being applied? I'm asking, because I've wondered the same thing, but I don't have all the specifics on how the VAT is added in the EU. Is that price final or pre-VAT?

0 upvotes
whtchocla7e
By whtchocla7e (9 months ago)

Straight conversion never makes sense. I would imagine various economic factors play into the prices of consumer goods. Average income, cost of living, etc.

0 upvotes
PicOne
By PicOne (9 months ago)

This question has obviously arisen for years and years.. My question is why none of the photo sites, (eg. DPR) who have access to camera manufacturers and distributors, don't ask and get the answer on behalf of their readers?

3 upvotes
AbrasiveReducer
By AbrasiveReducer (9 months ago)

They charge what they can get. NYC is the center of camera discounting. The further you go in any direction, the higher the prices. Always surprises me that a Nikon costs quite a bit more in Tokyo than it does at B&H or Adorama. The only thing that has changed over the years is the acceptance of rebates as a normal part of business and the inevitability that American mail order will eventually collect tax in all states.

0 upvotes
NetMage
By NetMage (9 months ago)

Like every Europe to US list price comparison, first you have to be comparing equal items. European pricing includes VAT, US pricing doesn't include sales tax (5% for me). Europe often requires extended warranties not required by US so add in the price of that. Then currency differences, cost of transportation, etc.

0 upvotes
Maverick_
By Maverick_ (9 months ago)

Hi, I am a consultant to major brands and I can answer you. Each country sets their own price based on two factors, what the competition is selling for and what the market is willing to pay.

What something sells in Euro or BP has no relation to its price in the US. Canon US sets that price.

1 upvote
mgblack74
By mgblack74 (9 months ago)

You are helping to pay off Greece, Cyprus and Spain's debt, no? It's a feel good purchase.

1 upvote
Lyn2010
By Lyn2010 (9 months ago)

How about Australia? Why do we Aussies always have to pay more than others?

0 upvotes
Donnie G
By Donnie G (9 months ago)

For me, sometimes it's just fun to try and guess what Canon's next move is going to be. Since the 70D is so close to the 7D in terms of features, I'm guessing that Canon will either drop the 7D type from their line or take it up to a price point above USD $1900 (probably $2099) in order to offer buyers a clear choice of either top level APS-C performance or entry into their full frame sensor bodies. As for the new phase detection AF CMOS sensor tech, I have no doubt that it will find its way into every Canon imaging product from the 70D on up, because it really is a game changer. EOS M, Powershot, and Rebel buyers will most likely have to make do with hybrid contrast detect/phase detect sensors similar to what's available in the T5i now. It just makes sense from a marketing standpoint. And even if it doesn't, it's still my best guess for the next new product cycle.

1 upvote
davidgp
By davidgp (9 months ago)

I agree with your first point, a $1900-$2100 7D Mark II makes a lot of sense to me, but disagree that the EOS M and Rebel lines will not utilize the new Phase Detect AF Sensor. From my view, Canon would be crazy to not give these lines the advantage of fast, accurate Live View AF. There are certainly plenty of other features that sufficiently differentiate the 70D from the M and Rebels.

4 upvotes
NetMage
By NetMage (9 months ago)

I think (hope) that there is room for a 7D above $1199 without going all the way to $2099.

1 upvote
tommy leong
By tommy leong (9 months ago)

absolutely agree
Finally the 800 pound gorilla awakes !

Canon left the mirrorless and larger sensor point and shoot market to the others for too long....
I am absolutely getting the 70D !

1 upvote
rrccad
By rrccad (9 months ago)

usually (and this is usually .. ) canon pretty well keeps to the price of the prior model - the only time that i can recall a dramatic shift was the 5d Mark III.

the 7D was released at 1699 USD - so i'd be surprised if it's not around the 1750 to 1900 USD amount.

1 upvote
GKN
By GKN (9 months ago)

Maybe the next will be a camera to replace the 1D MK IV and the 7D ......a type of pro level APS-C camera, maybe even a built in grip? Canon would then discontinue the need for APS-H sensors

0 upvotes
new boyz
By new boyz (9 months ago)

They wait for Nikon D400. No D400, no product to be answered.

0 upvotes
Donnie G
By Donnie G (9 months ago)

My reasoning with regard to the 2 different sensor technologies is that the hybrid tech is on par with what Canon's competitors are able to offer, and therefore is quite useful as is. But the new dual pixel tech is a major leap forward in live view shooting performance that would definitely differentiate between entry level models and a step up to higher end models in a way that the competition probably won't be able to duplicate for at least 4 or 5 years. So it doesn't make sense for Canon to give that tech away across its entire product line until the competition can match it. Yes, entry level owners will drool over this new tech, and they can have it for the price of a higher end model. In business they call that making a profit.

0 upvotes
Kirppu
By Kirppu (9 months ago)

"AF works in light levels as low as 0 EV"
So what does this actually mean, no pahse detection in very very low light?
Aka black cat in coal mine. :)

0 upvotes
Vlad S
By Vlad S (9 months ago)

0 EV does not mean no light. It means exposure of 1 second at f/1.0. You can get negative EV if you need longer exposures or wider apertures.

3 upvotes
Kirppu
By Kirppu (9 months ago)

So with f/2.0 and exposure of 1 second that's about -1.0 EV
or for the 0 EV exposure of 2 second with f/2.0

I think they should talk about lux levels. You could get the impression that AF doesn't work if you under exposure your photos? ;)

1 upvote
davidgp
By davidgp (9 months ago)

Ahh, no... the equivalent aperture setting for 0 EV using a 2-sec exposure is f1.4, one stop down from f1.0.

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

it's -0.5EV in spec, which is not impressive at all.

0 upvotes
justmeMN
By justmeMN (9 months ago)

Even when Canon does something innovative, many people here constantly complain.

Canon estimates that they will sell 9.2 million DSLRs this year. Not bad for a company that does everything wrong. :-)

Comment edited 9 minutes after posting
30 upvotes
CanonKen
By CanonKen (9 months ago)

A 1D X grade camera for $999 would cause pages of complaints. Your point is the real one...they sell a LOT of cameras.

5 upvotes
AbrasiveReducer
By AbrasiveReducer (9 months ago)

The only thing they know how to do right is sell cameras. Oh, and lenses. Judging by movies and TV, Canon is lousy at giving stuff away. You'll never see Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise reach for a Canon camera and download to a PC laptop.

Comment edited 18 seconds after posting
1 upvote
rrccad
By rrccad (9 months ago)

CLEARLY if they listened to the marketting and R&D and engineering experts that read dpreview, they'd have well over 9.3m units sold ;)

1 upvote
cgarrard
By cgarrard (9 months ago)

"The only thing they know how to do right is sell cameras. "

I just nose snort laughed.

Carl

0 upvotes
BIDYUT KUMAR DE
By BIDYUT KUMAR DE (9 months ago)

New camera from CANON stable....sounds good.But my question is,is this model they made for videographers?!!Basically this camera is a sill camera.They should have tried to make this APS-C camera produce less noise at high ISO like 6D and MKIII.But I think they clearly avoid this critical problem.I have seen the samples by CANON,which has lot of noise in the darker parts.CANON engineers....are you aware of these noise problems!!!

1 upvote
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

No, I'm sure they aren't aware of the output this camera produces.
The current environment in the camera market is just as schizo as this site. "What, no 1080p60fps! Revolt!" or "I hate video, don't waste my money on video features" or "I never use live view because it sucks" or "viewfinders are for old people, give me decent LiveView focus so I don't have to bother with that ancient tech."
I don't see all this noise others see...and I'm as much a pixel peeper as the next guy. Noise is going to be there, but I haven't seen anything that proves it's gotten better or worse with the 70D. Once we get a RAW file that has a standardized workflow applied and measurements taken, people don't have anything solid to base their conclusions on.

9 upvotes
rrccad
By rrccad (9 months ago)

you are comparing a full frame sensor to a crop sensor - two different beasts.

secondly ... there's alot of value add to the photographer between this and the 60D it replaces. in actuality far more than AF during video that the videographers get.
let's see .. faster fps, AEB up to 7 shots, better LCD, 7D's AF sensor, AFMA, various in camera multi-shot modes.

what you should realize as well that not everyone just takes photos inside of dark bat caves and vampire hideouts.

3 upvotes
Spectro
By Spectro (9 months ago)

bigger sensor wins if from the same generation. 6d high iso nosie is raw cooking, no way on earth it is a better sensor then the 5dm3. Yes camera makers can cook their raw it is up to them not dxomark. But dxomark can see that they did. You can reduce nosie with software too in Lightroom, noise ninja, so work with what you got.

0 upvotes
Lanski
By Lanski (9 months ago)

It's great to see Canon innovating again. However, before this release the main gripe being aired on these forums (regarding Canon) was the outdated noise/DR performance of the sensor. It was a fair point - although Canon excel in other areas, the 7D sensor just doesn't compete with the Exmor related offerings of the competition on DR & noise. This sensor just has to be better. I really hope this new focussing system isn't the sole improvement on this sensor. Innovative as it may be, IQ always comes first.

8 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

If you want to be technical, the first thing that happens is the capture, then the image quality. There has to be a balance between getting the image and the quality of the image. Cost versus benefit.

6 upvotes
Goodmeme
By Goodmeme (9 months ago)

@howardroark do you work for Canon or do you just love them lots? It's just I can't help thinking you don't get it. Many people here have invested thousands in Canon equipment and don't want the transactional loss from swapping it, nevermind the time (and sometimes stress) it would take to deliberate, research, buy and get used to a new system.
What is upsetting is seeing how far Canon went in just a few years with the advent of DSLRs, how far the prices fell, and knowing how amazing a 1 series camera is, even after a couple of decades. But Canon have disappointed many older customers for a while now.

For example Nikon at least offers a serious small full frame camera with a built-in flash - what I and many others wanted for ages.

Canon were last to the table with their APS-C interchangeable. Its obvious to everyone else when a brand (and its customers) are being milked, and partly ignored. Short term its a profitable strategy for a cash cow division, but we don't have to like it.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

I've tried to develop reasonable expectations of technology and tech companies. I don't think smartphones are smart and mine hasn't "changed my life" any more than any other machine has. A camera is a camera, so go pick one that fits YOUR needs and shut up about it. You invested in a camera system KNOWING that you were spending money on technology that may or may not fit your specific needs into perpetuity, and if you didn't understand that then I don't know how anyone can have an ounce of sympathy for you.
As many customers as they've disappointed, they've made a whole bunch more happy. And for those people who are unhappy, they have every right to feel that way but no right to expect Canon to take a course of action that benefits them exclusively. Technology development isn't an assembly line and if something better comes out later then I assume that's better than something worse coming out later. I don't pity people who complain about how things work and things they can't change.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
11 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

This isn't group therapy. If you're mad at Canon for doing what all camera companies do then maybe your therapist is a more appropriate venue for you to vent your frustrations. I also happen to like a lot of what Canon does. The 7D was a revelation, and I've loved my G1 X despite its limitations, and do you know why? Because I knew what its limitations were going in. I had realistic expectations and the opportunities it affords me and the image quality it produces fit MY needs.
And to more fully answer your question, I have paid Canon to supply me with devices that fit my needs, which means Canon is currently working for ME. If you want to fire them you're going to pay them their severence and rest easy knowing that you're going to a camera company that does what you like....today. I warn you, that company may not always call you and ask if you approve of their next camera design. Best of luck.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting
6 upvotes
AbrasiveReducer
By AbrasiveReducer (9 months ago)

There is an upside. Assuming Canon image quality stays where it is (which is fine if not the absolute state of the art) there's no need to buy a new model every 12-18 months.

0 upvotes
Juck
By Juck (9 months ago)

Steady there Howardroark,,,, so much common sense in 2 posts is not allowed here. At least it shut that clown goodmeme up.

3 upvotes
Andy G
By Andy G (9 months ago)

Canon 70D - One Trick Pony

As a videographer, I can’t wait to test the 70D’s new “Revolution in Autofocus” with my sweet Zeiss ZE lenses. Oops, Zeisses are manual focus ... oh well, maybe next time.

At least I’ll have the benefit of superior low light performance - after all, it was a few months back when Canon rolled out a promo video touting the advancements of their “Digic 6 Processor” -- oh gee, the 70D doesn’t have Digic 6 - still a Digic 5+ ... oh well, maybe next time.

Canon’s banner headline for the 70D “Shoot Video Like a Camcorder”!
Great - just what I’ve been wanting to do and since all camcorders have Headphone Jacks, I’m sure Canon (after 4 years) has finally included one - No? ... oh well, maybe next time.

Certainly Canon has listened to its customer base and included a feature that all videographers want, professionals need and is found on Canon’s consumer line: Vixia HFG30, Vixia HFG20 ... Dual Card Slots - Yes. No? ... oh well , maybe next time.

17 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Really nice anger you've got going on there. What is it with all the anger? What benchmark of perfection are you basing all of your hostility on? A combination of five other devices? Good luck getting every single thing you want in one device....and all YOUR way, since you are the gold standard by which manufacturers base their design decisions, right?
It doesn't matter what processor it uses as long as it does what people buying it want it to do. Who on God's green Earth wants to buy a Canon and then put all their Zeiss lenses on it? Not many, that's who. Too bad Canon didn't make one perfect body and then sell it to you for a few million dollars and forget about selling cameras to anyone else.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
14 upvotes
Adrian Van
By Adrian Van (9 months ago)

I am hoping any missing items will show up in the 7Dmark2: Dual card slots, headphone jack, digic 6 if it really is better than digic 5+. The 70D already has it right with new movie servo AF, articulating screen, new PDAF sensor, at a reasonable price point that some will buy and it is good to see new Canon innovations. For others who want more, wait for the 7D mark 2. Hopefully onscreen video and audio displays (audio level bars) will be great as well which is what is on professional level camcorders. We will see. Canon, if you are still deciding features on 7DII, I hope you are reading our requests. Please put these features in the 7DII or else the 6D mark2 whenever that happens.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 10 minutes after posting
4 upvotes
Alec_c
By Alec_c (9 months ago)

howard, Andy is totally entitled to be disappointed as a videographer (as I am as a photographer :-)).
Each of us is entitled to an opinion and attacking or criticizing someone for his/hers is not very mature and not nice at all.
As an example: what if someone would comment to you "what do you know about SLR while shooting with a pocket camera and showing roughly a picture for 1000 comments?"
Hope no one does that ... would not be nice. What do you say?

1 upvote
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Are you referring to my gallery? I meant to delete those pictures, so technically their should be zero pictures there for the thousands of posts I've written. You want to know what I shoot with? OM2000 (Olympus's last OM film camera, fully manual), Sony S85, Canon 10D, Canon 30D, Canon A620, Canon SX20, Canon D10, Canon 7D, Canon G1 X. Believe it or not, I do recommend Nikon and Sony and Olympus to people who ask for my opinion because the question isn't "what do you like?" it's "what is best for me?" That question is too complex for one brand to respond to.
The point of posts here isn't to support your arguments based on your equipment list, but instead make statements that stand on their own merit.
GPS is an available feature. Jeez, Canon is so stupid for not putting it on the 70D, aren't they?! And make the body mag. And charge $1,500 instead of $1,300. And drain the battery faster. And take 3D video! There are other cameras and other brands. And the 7DII should be here soon.

0 upvotes
Andy G
By Andy G (9 months ago)

Howard, you're right.

Why should anyone expect Canon to incorporate a headphone jack - it might cost them 50 cents, but more importantly it would interfere with their "dumbing down" creed trying to nudge buyers up the food chain.

Also, I don't think that asking for dual card slots was too much of a stretch considering other brands as well as Canon incorporate dual cards in their other consumer products.

And lastly, Canon's management hasn't done anyone any favors.

They were handed a golden platter with the 5DMKII user base yet they have continually taken every opportunity to intentionally limit features or raise prices exorbitantly for certain new products.

You can argue that they are simply a business, but Canon has failed on both fronts - they have alienated many of their core users and at the same time driven down shareholder value by: 1. Falling behind the competition
2. Not "speccing" their products aggressively enough to maintain robust sales.

4 upvotes
Adrian Van
By Adrian Van (9 months ago)

The 70D is priced to compete with Nikon D7100, so naturally should have had some of its features like dual slots for SD (it doesn't). Canon's cameras are priced such as if you do not see all the features you want, pay more for a higher model (the next 7DII or Full frame cameras). That is how I see it. It is simply business to them. That said 70D does have a few very worthwhile upgrades, especially for video with sensor PDAF with fast live view and continuous AF on video, competitive with mirrorless fastest live view AF speed which was not there before. (Could PDAF be faster?) Bravo, Canon!

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Canon never, in the last decade I've been keeping track, included a feature simply because another brand had it. If you think Nikon is perfect take a look at the pathetic buffer they put in the D7100. It probably would have cost them fifty cents in memory to increase it, but they didn't. A nickel here and dime there eats into the reason for a company existing: profit. You guys call everything you don't like dumbing down and yet you don't call all the useless features other cameras offer what they are, gimmicks. What is asking too much is for your list of priorities to match everyone else's. A lot of us disagree with you and don't want to pay for extra crap we don't need. They haven't alienated their core users because there are tons of us here and happy with what they've done. Happy with our 4 year old 7D that forced Nikon and others into trying to compete with the Canon DSLR lines that sell not necessarily because of one single feature, but because many people agree...

0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

with the balance of features to cost, the user interface, the value, the image quality, etc. You didn't get what you wanted. We don't feel sorry for you. Please go buy one of the myriad other cameras on the market and enjoy it in good health. The sooner you buy something you like the less time you'll waste moaning about a company you hate.

Comment edited 35 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Woodlink
By Woodlink (9 months ago)

Still LOVING my 6D and it's awful focusing system.

Sure, I wished it had 99 all cross type sensors, but heck I'll take the really, really great low light performance.

Ferrari's suck at pulling trailers, but they are fast as ****!

good Lord, Andy, lighten up

0 upvotes
Andy G
By Andy G (9 months ago)

No one is mentioning the word "sorry" except for you. Canon's drop in net income quarter to quarter from their 5DMKII heyday would appear to contradict your opinion that they haven't alienated or lost a portion of their user base. Whether this is from the competition catching up/passing or from initial disappointment in highly anticipated models (such as the the roll out of the 5DMKIII where the softer video and higher price initially turned some users away) no one knows. Canon was positioned to be the "Apple" of the photo world. Yes, Apple has slipped a bit, but Canon never realized their full potential (in my opinion) because of bad management. This has nothing to do with my personal laundry list of possible missteps Canon has made, but more from their hard financial numbers and lost sales.

1 upvote
Andy G
By Andy G (9 months ago)

Howard, I think that Nikon is trying their best to supplant Canon with video DSLRs, but just hasn't mastered the tech, whereas Canon has mastered the tech, but in their continuing effort at trying to squeeze the most money out of its users has settled for lower volume higher ticket items vs higher volume and it has back-fired financially (and with some of its users back-fired emotionally).

2 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Digital imaging is changing and maturing. Markets get saturated. Markets diversify and competition increases. Apple didn't invent the smartphone, they invented a smartphone that finally pushed everyone else to try harder. They did things nobody else had the guts to do and then when everyone else did it Apple is the only one who is labeled as a thief of ideas. If you think Nikon isn't squeezing as much money as they can out of their sales then I bet you also think the politicians who agree with you aren't as crooked as a tree branch, too.
The 5DIII users I've listened to were glad to pay for a more fully featured, fully realized design.
Apple slipped a bit for the same reason any innovator slips, because their vary existence forces innovation, competition, and an accelerated growth of the market as well as an accelerated saturation. Growth curves slow down, profit margins get thinner, and we're all fortunate that nobody has to listen to or agree with your opinion or mine. $ talks.

0 upvotes
Adrian Van
By Adrian Van (9 months ago)

I agree that Nikon D7100 has held back on buffer size, so a D400 may be in the works with high build quality and maybe other features. It was 2009 for Nikon D300s release, so about time for D400. All companies hold back some features to encourage some more serious buyers to spend more on higher model. Still waiting for D400. I have D300s and D700. I have owned a couple Canons DSLRs in past.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

You know Andy G is a smart guy when you hear him complaining about how the 70D's new autofocus system won't work with his Zeiss ZE manual lenses. Yep, he's a true genius and that complaint definitely gives him lots of street cred. Not.

Maybe someday, Andy G will move out of his mom's basement...and right into a mental institution, LOL.

2 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (9 months ago)

LOL, you're mad at Canon because you bought MF-only Zeiss lenses??? GTFO here.

2 upvotes
Andy G
By Andy G (9 months ago)

Canon, the leaders in stagnation with a sprinkle of forward progress tempered by the secret creed of “Dumbing Down the Product Line To Protect the Higher Order.

The true innovation coming out of Canon is not coming out of Canon - the Magic Lantern Team - doing incredible things!

13 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

If this guy isn't the perfect argument for having some sort of "thumbs down" or "Was this post helpful?" option then I don't know what is.

13 upvotes
FreedomLover
By FreedomLover (9 months ago)

Of course Nikon and Canon are crippling most of their cameras in the hope customers would buy more expensive models instead. This is obvious since years.

Is it worth attacking fellow people commenting here, to defend the corporation you like? Group therapy you say?

4 upvotes
Woodlink
By Woodlink (9 months ago)

Off

His

Meds

1 upvote
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (9 months ago)

Andy G hates Canon so much he posts on the comment threads for products he has no intention of buying anyway. Here's a nickel kiddo, buy yourself some Ritalin.

1 upvote
FreedomLover
By FreedomLover (9 months ago)

"Here's a nickel kiddo, buy yourself some Ritalin."
Personal attacks like these poison the community and tear DPReview down to gutter level.

I hope you can apologise.

1 upvote
NancyP
By NancyP (9 months ago)

The 60D and 6D are reasonably sized and have lighter bodies than their more expensive brethren. As for balance, my 400mm f/5.6L balances just fine on the 60D, and my Sigma 35mm f/1.4 feels great with the 6D.

0 upvotes
Alec_c
By Alec_c (9 months ago)

"reasonably" is a pretty subjective term ...
unreasonable is to develop a camera for children, women and small (asian?) men, all small handed.
unreasonable is when the space between the lens and the grip is so small you scratch the lens every time you grab the camera and you need to strain your fingers on too small wheels or try to reach buttons that are too close or awkwardly positioned, without dropping the camera.
but I respect that, from your standpoint, a small camera works. Good shooting!

Comment edited 35 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

@Alec_c -- not everyone has ape hands, nor do you really need to grab the camera with all digits so tightly as if your life depended on it. Also keep in mind that, just like cars and pizzas, cameras do come in different models with different sizes to suit your preference. If the 70D is not large enough for you, Canon does offer larger cameras you can buy. In Canon's APS-C range, I'd say that the Rebel 700D, 70D, and 7D models constitute small, medium, and large camera sizes. Frankly, I can quite comfortably use all three model sizes, and I even use an even tinier Olympus E-PM1 (size extra small?) with no problems, either. I guess some of us are more adaptable and versatile than others.

BTW, I have a friend who is about as tall and large as Liam Neeson (6'5"), and he comfortably shoots with a Canon Rebel 650D. Apparently, he holds the camera with a rather light touch, and therefore doesn't experience any cramp or size issues with the camera.

0 upvotes
rrccad
By rrccad (9 months ago)

and if not - add a grip to create a better balance.

0 upvotes
Alec_c
By Alec_c (9 months ago)

Dear T3, Yes, if you're 5'7" you can always get into larger clothes. You convinced me, from the height of your adaptability (and possession of a large friend with a 650D) that you're truly stupid. Adaptable one.

0 upvotes
Alec_c
By Alec_c (9 months ago)

Amazed how many fallen on their asses for the dual diode pixel. Good for filming, maybe good when shooting - still to be seen.
After a good treatment from Canon in plastic bodies and intentionally crippled cameras (see 60D, 6D), apparently no one remembers what the xxD line stood for: prosumer/semi-pro quality and performance, solid build and excellent ergonomics. What we get with this is good if you're tiny and with child hands - a camera just barely bigger than an entry level, made so tiny as no place to put one button more or a audio jack, and all plastic build, now norm.
Been waiting to replace my 40D for so long I got spiderwebs on my wallet. And apparently these will grow thicker as good it may be then new camera is unusable ... unless you keep it with the fingertips. And of course, use only light, entry level lenses so it does not fall onto it's nose.
I have also looked in the samples from Canon website ... nothing spectacular.
Let's see what DP will tell us in their review.

4 upvotes
Ioan Danubiu
By Ioan Danubiu (9 months ago)

The points you make here are good, but as your wallet seems to have gotten larger as time went by, I hope you will be able to buy the 7D Mark II when it hits the market. And I hope you'll be satisfied. Moreover, I wonder why you haven't bought the 7D, which was the real replacement of the 50D. It has several good improvements in key areas over the 40D (which is my current camera also).

5 upvotes
Alec_c
By Alec_c (9 months ago)

Ca bine zici!
7D was everything I wanted, less the sensor and maybe an articulated screen. Actually not even the sensor is bad, bad is the AA filter. Considered buying one and HotRod-ing it but that got too expensive compared to a 5D. I was ready to spend the money since 50D showed up (not enough improvement and poor IQ) then no chance during the 18MP reign, felt completely let down by the 6D ...
Will wait for the 7DMkii but I'm sure Canon will manage to cripple that one too (I bet no articulated touch screen, single card, no DIGIC 6 but twin 5, let's see what their mind will cook-out ).

1 upvote
Zerg2905
By Zerg2905 (9 months ago)

@Alec_c: intentionally crippled cameras = segmentation (marketing). Samsung is doing the same, major car manufacturers - the same, Apple the other way around, but it's just market segmentation. And it is working for decades. Cheers! :)

1 upvote
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

Of Canon's XXD bodies, I've owned the 10D, 20D, 40D, and now have a 60D. Frankly, I actually prefer the 60D's lighter, more compact plastic body. It's more resilient, impervious to dents or paint chipping, more temperature stable, and does a better job of handling impact shock than magnesium. These days, many of the latest modern assault rifles are being made of plastics for its superior properties...and none are made of magnesium. Why? Magnesium, while stiff, is not very resilient, is brittle, and therefore is prone to cracking. Just do a Google image search of "cracked magnesium camera" and see for yourself. Magnesium, especially in the sub-pro bodies, just isn't what it's cracked up to be, no pun intended.

Comment edited 8 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

BTW, you may not realize this, but all the bottom plates of Canon's magnesium prosumer bodies (10D-50D, 7D, 5D's) are all made of plastic. Tap the bottom of your 40D and see for yourself. If you want to see how the plastic bottom plate survives compared to its neighboring magnesium panels, look here:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/42049208?image=3

This is a Canon 7D, and the point of impact was the edge of the body, where the magnesium panel and the plastic panels meet. As you can see, the magnesium panel cracked and broke right off, while the plastic panel survived with just some mild scratches and denting. Plastic won, magnesium lost!

Also consider that *every* hotshoe flash made by *every* camera manufacturer is made of plastic, *not* magnesium. Why? Plastic is just a better material: lighter, better shock absorption, more resilient, etc. I don't hear anyone whining about the plastics used in Canon's speedlites.

3 upvotes
rrccad
By rrccad (9 months ago)

every camera company intentionally cripples one camera or another - or each company would only have one maybe two cameras for sale at a time and that would be it. the entire rebel line is crippled - is nikon's D5000 or D3000 line crippled? you bet it is!

each company puts in what they feel the market requires and that they feel will sell and sells that - and not one bit more.

It seems that XXD users are stuck in the past and waiting for an upgrade that will not happen. The XXD line changed and shifted after the 7D was released. That paradigm model was more affirmed after the 6D was released with the SAME ergonomics as the 60D. Post rebel you have two paths - FF or Crop and both of them have their bridge cameras. if anything, canon has one of the most logical progressions through their lineup.

I've come to the conclusion that some just like to complain so they sound more PRO.

1 upvote
lightsculpture
By lightsculpture (9 months ago)

A quick test of the Dual Pixel AF on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R59wD_4dsl4

1 upvote
FreedomLover
By FreedomLover (9 months ago)

Unfortunately that video shows it failing twice in a 12 second clip.

0 upvotes
rhlpetrus
By rhlpetrus (9 months ago)

Congrats to canopn, looks like they have finally done some innovative work on their aps-c line. Looking forward to read about the off-sensor AF, if it is close to the V1's, and works in low light, Canon will have a winner here.

3 upvotes
Roland Karlsson
By Roland Karlsson (9 months ago)

Oops - commenting her goes fast. And your question is fast far away from the top. So - I reiterate my question.

Can you get all 40 MP as an output?

That would be fun, both for 3D images and depth detection.

0 upvotes
Andy Westlake
By Andy Westlake (9 months ago)

No, it's not possible to get RAW output from all of the photodiodes. When you press the shutter it turns into a perfectly normal 20MP Bayer camera.

0 upvotes
Roland Karlsson
By Roland Karlsson (9 months ago)

Thanx for the info.

Thats a pity. If you could you could do much fun with the camera.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

not possible with standard Canon firmware, the numbers from each of the dual pixel are added to generate the output.

hope Magic Lantern may be able to do it later.

0 upvotes
BJL
By BJL (9 months ago)

The two photodiodes in each photosite are under the same micro lens (and the same color filter), so I doubt that they see spatially different information, just a difference in the incoming angle of that light, used for focus measurement. If so, there would not be any extra spatial detail to be got from reading all 40 million photodiodes separately.

1 upvote
Roland Karlsson
By Roland Karlsson (9 months ago)

@BJL - ah - but thats the idea. You can start thinking 3D. That would be easy if you had all the 40 MP. At least if you take the photo with a large aperture. Then you will also have very serious information for depth detection.

0 upvotes
new boyz
By new boyz (9 months ago)

No. Even if Magic Lantern hack can pull a readout off the 2nd layer, it'd be identical to upper layer's image, except for a bit difference in focus range.

0 upvotes
Fred Briggs
By Fred Briggs (9 months ago)

Not sure about Andy's statement regarding it turning into a perfectly normal 20MP Bayer sensor. I think we need to know more about the sensor architecture to judge that. For example are the two charges read separately and then averaged for the readout, with some implications for well size and SNR, or does an electronic switch connect the two wells such that the charge is combined and can be read off as a single reading. it would be good if DPR could find out more on this.

Comment edited 24 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Adrian Van
By Adrian Van (9 months ago)

The 70D meets or exceeds (with new AF) all (or most) of the functionality features and performance of the current 7D in specs (dpreview suggests in their summary section), so does this means it is the current flagship APS-C for Canon, until a 7D mark 2 comes out next? If it works as well as it appears by specs, it is a solid competitor to Nikon D7100. Although what lenses you already have will make a difference on which brand to choose. Both cameras are very good! Like the articulating screen of 70D which is exceedingly useful for live view video recording. Canon and Nikon continue to step up the functions of their top APS-C in latest models, especially with video functions, and better AF during recording.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Define flagship. The 7D still exceeds the 70D in build quality, a few other specs, but in many regards the 70D will be in front for a while. Still, the flagship line is the 7D line whether it is leading at the moment or not. The theory is that the 7DII will outstip the 70D in similar proportion to the 7D's position over the 60D. We don't know if that will be done with a different sensor or just a ton of different/new features.

2 upvotes
flipmac
By flipmac (9 months ago)

Depends on your priorities/preferences. The D7100 has more AF points and I expect the 7D replacement to have more too but the 70D has PD on 80% of the sensor (for better LV). Both 7D and D7100 have OVF with 100% coverage while the 70D is only 98% but has articulating touchscreen. There are more differences (like slower burst rate and less robust than the 7D, etc.) but you start to see where Canon is positioning the 70D.

Comment edited 8 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
Adrian Van
By Adrian Van (9 months ago)

I just read the article on 70D from B&H Photo, and it describes the 7D still as flagship and 70D as between 60D and 7D, so I guess you are right. However, some new features are better. Naturally the 7D mark 2 will likely have all this and more to add. I just wish they would put an articulating LCD in their next top model 7DII coming out later (missing on 7D) to make video easier to captured now that live view should be better. Nikon D7100 could have used it too. I know final production cost vs. retail cost is a consideration, but many would want it in a top model and would be willing to pay, I think anyway.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 10 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Agreed. It would take a lot to convince me to upgrade my 7D, but every little bit helps. Include an articulating LCD, DP PDAF, a few million more pixels, better ISO and DR, WiFi, 10fps with a deep buffer, 1080p60 video.....and there would probably have to be some cool new things I can't even think of, too.

4 upvotes
NetMage
By NetMage (9 months ago)

I'd be happy without most of that, but say usable 16 bit RAW (with corresponding DR improvement), much more sophisticated Auto/program controls (auto-ISO programmability, and user programmable or selectable exposure graphs for Av/Tv/ISO selection, much deeper RAW buffer, the LiveView PDAF would be nice.

How about a 80MP Quad Pixel PDAF sensor with 20MP/80MP selectable RAW images?

0 upvotes
W5JCK
By W5JCK (9 months ago)

I will stick with my trusted 60D. In my case the 70D is not worth the upgrade price. The only new feature it has that I wish my 60D had is WiFi. I seldom use AF, so all those new bells and whistles for AF are of zero value to me. I don't like touchscreens on a camera, especially when certain menus are available only through them and not through buttons. They changed the dial to have fewer choices, basically excluding quick scene selections, and I don't like that. I prefer my 60D dial and button placements.

I mostly use my 60D for astrophotography where full manual operation is a must and where operating in the dark is also a must. For those who do a lot of autofocusing and movies, the 70D might be a good option if they don't already own a 60D. Otherwise I see little to gain by upgrading to the 70D. And newcomers can now buy a 60D for half or less than the price of a 70D. Canon has given a few improvements and jacked the price WAY up on the 70D. Just not worth it IMO.

0 upvotes
Juck
By Juck (9 months ago)

70D is triple the camera that the 60D is,, for about double the price. Seems like a decent upgrade from the 60D.

4 upvotes
NancyP
By NancyP (9 months ago)

Now's the time to get a second 60D and convert it.

0 upvotes
W5JCK
By W5JCK (9 months ago)

Juck you need to read the specs for the 70D. It is not even a 20% improvement over the 60D, much less a 300% improvement!

1 upvote
NetMage
By NetMage (9 months ago)

Depends on your camera needs - for videographers and LiveView shooters, the 70D might be more than 3 times the camera. For still image photographers, waiting on the 7D Mark II seems like a good bet (especially those of us that find the 60D a non-upgrade to the 50D).

Plus, it's too early to talk about the pricing difference - the 60D list price was only $100 less than the 70D at release, so they are basically the same price.

0 upvotes
s d
By s d (9 months ago)

Can you take a full resolution still while recoding a video without losing a frame?

0 upvotes
Jurka
By Jurka (9 months ago)

"Dual Pixel CMOS AF' sensor that promises..."

Just another marketing slogan. In real life AF is jumping as always.

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

guys here got overwhelmed by the new AF
they touched it and fell in love.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-70d/canon-70dA.HTM

0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

And you know this based on "real life" experience with the 70D? Yeah, right. Apparently, you're "just another" guy on the internet who pretends to know things he doesn't really know.

1 upvote
Low Budget Dave
By Low Budget Dave (9 months ago)

I wish DPR would go back and finish the review of the EOS M. It has been about a year, and Canon even finally got around to fixing the firmware. A review of that camera might give us a good idea how well Canon has figured out hybrid AF.

1 upvote
tkbslc
By tkbslc (9 months ago)

This is a hardware based solution on the 70D, so it likely won't have any correlation with the EOS M firmware.

1 upvote
Photomonkey
By Photomonkey (9 months ago)

Sounds great but the proof is in the pictures. I do believe that the operational improvements (if they are as good as advertised) will be a huge step forward.

1 upvote
DaytonR
By DaytonR (9 months ago)

Yeah it sounds great ! TBH I wouldnt worry about the pictures ... I have never heard of a Canon DSLR that made bad pictures so based on past precedents this camera will rock ! I guess Canon users with older models are now envious at the specs and sensor on this 70D :)

4 upvotes
Alec_c
By Alec_c (9 months ago)

... bad no, maybe just mediocre ... see all 18MP series ...
Looking for the samples coming from Canon I do not feel envious at all.

0 upvotes
Photomonkey
By Photomonkey (9 months ago)

While the current APS-C sensor in the 7D lags behind the competition it hardly falls into the dogmeat category. Other than pixel peeing and extreme PP abuse the files are every bit as good as anything out there. I shoot FF Canon and my friends shoot FF Nikon and we cannot see the difference between them.

3 upvotes
The Photo Ninja
By The Photo Ninja (9 months ago)

I think it's awesome! I have a 5D3 and an SL1 for size. The 5D3 as a still camera is amazing, but the sl1 with its touch screen and autofocus during live view are definitely faster. Eventually this new technology will be improved and hopefully make its way into the pro level bodies. It's great for consumers. Also, gotta say, I'm happy that I switched from Nikon earlier this year.

6 upvotes
fjbeiderbecke
By fjbeiderbecke (9 months ago)

I see most of the references to the AF in regards to video. Will this make much of a difference to a still photographer?

0 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

Yes.

0 upvotes
wetsleet
By wetsleet (9 months ago)

No.
Unless you forego the optical viewfinder and rely on the rear screen to compose and shoot.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

yes, it improves image quality significantly.
it's called dual-pixel cmos AF but even without the AF,
it boosts image quality by doubling the pixel count.
higher the pixel count, higher the image quality.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
wetsleet
By wetsleet (9 months ago)

er, no. The pixel count is not doubled, but maybe the marketing is double-speak. Each pixel is still one pixel, it's just made up from two photo diodes, each taking its light from opposite halves of the lens.

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

yab, that's not true. More pixels doesn't mean better image quality. It just doesn't. The term "image quality" contains too many variables for a statement like that to be true. People talk about quantum efficiency of smaller pixels but they gloss over the full well capacity being way, way lower and the readout noise being higher (S/N ratio lower).

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 14 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
wetsleet
By wetsleet (9 months ago)

but this is not an argument about the benefits or otherwise of more pixels. Because there are no extra pixels here to argue about.

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

the readout noise will be lower with higher pixel count. stepping up pixel count is a main weapon Canon use whenever they want to have higher image quality.

we observed it 5 years ago 40D -> 50D -> 7D
and we will have a significantly/radically improved one soon.
for those who don't have time to study, just wait and see the DxOMark.

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Ross Murphy
By Ross Murphy (9 months ago)

it will make a huge difference to live view AF for stills, so yes it will

0 upvotes
BJL
By BJL (9 months ago)

I expect no IQ advantage over a normal 20MP design.
The image output is 20MP, not 40MP, because the signals from the two photodiodes at each photosite (under the same microlens and color filter) are merged into a single output value. If anything, the extra complications of putting two smaller photodiodes at each photosite instead of one bigger one is likely to lose some electron well capacity and some QE (light detection efficiency.)

P. S. I agree that the IQ of stills in LV mode could improve by being in better focus!

Comment edited 57 seconds after posting
3 upvotes
NetMage
By NetMage (9 months ago)

@howardroark

In general, more pixels does mean better image quality, up to the limits of the rest of the imaging chain.

As for well depth, don't forget you are also (in this example) halving the area imaged so you aren't affecting DR at all.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (9 months ago)

@NetMage,

DR is affected by SNR. since the SNR is likely significantly improved, we should be able to get better DR, exactly how much depends on the way people measure it.

0 upvotes
lightsculpture
By lightsculpture (9 months ago)

I wonder if Canon will implement a single shot HDR with Dual Pixel like Fuji did with EXR. Basically one of the dual pixel records at a positive bias and the other one at negative. They will then combine to produce an image with high DR....

2 upvotes
KAllen
By KAllen (9 months ago)

I filled in a Canon survey the other day, it was for owners of D series cameras.
A lot of features on this camera, like swivel screen, live view focus were boxes to tick for options you would like to see on future D cameras.

0 upvotes
onlooker
By onlooker (9 months ago)

Hm. Sky in this ISO 1600 shot looks pretty nasty.

http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www09/canon-premium/eosd/samples/eos70d/downloads/08.jpg

3 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

You're kidding, right?

2 upvotes
Houseqatz
By Houseqatz (9 months ago)

i thought the image was of butterflies.

2 upvotes
onlooker
By onlooker (9 months ago)

@howardroark: No, I am not kidding. Why don't you look instead of going so uptight.

2 upvotes
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

I did look. I say again, are you joking? That shot was taken at 1600 and the amount of noise in the sky isn't nasty compared to any other camera at ISO 1600. I have no idea how that photo was processed, so I don't think it is necessarily indicative of what the sensor can do, but judging by the amount of detail smudged by noise reduction and the amount of noise still remaining in the sky I disagree with your opinion.

2 upvotes
onlooker
By onlooker (9 months ago)

howardroark wrote: "judging by the amount of detail smudged by noise reduction and the amount of noise still remaining in the sky I disagree with your opinion."

Wait, what? You just disagreed with my opinion and now you're saying there is noise in the sky and detail smudged?

1 upvote
howardroark
By howardroark (9 months ago)

It is a JPEG at ISO 1600 straight out of camera -- of course it has noise reduction and smudged detail. However, considering typical JPEG settings from a Canon camera I don't consider the noise level terribly high. The background is way out of focus, the shot is fairly wide angle, so details are approaching resolution limits of the sensor/lens combo. So, in a monochrome (blue sky) area noise will be very visible, in a background with very fine and very small detail the effect of noise reduction will be exaggerated, and there is simply going to be noise at 1600.

0 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

Yes, because we all shoot blue skies on bright sunny days at ISO 1600.

0 upvotes
Keith Reeder
By Keith Reeder (9 months ago)

He's - obviously and quite rightly - saying that it's utterly impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from that image.

0 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (9 months ago)

Canon has brought back digital video zoom (3x-10x version). Yes!!!

They should never have gotten rid of it, and they should expand it.

4 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (9 months ago)

http://youtu.be/RUMPxIxi8zo?t=4m56s

1 upvote
mrschmo
By mrschmo (9 months ago)

I hope they brought back AF fine tune for this model otherwise shooting fast primes wide open is out of the question.

0 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (9 months ago)

Read the article (they did).

5 upvotes
T3
By T3 (9 months ago)

That's silly. I've been shooting with fast primes wide open on nearly a dozen different Canon bodies since the film days without AF fine tuning, and I've *never* had a problem. Even when DOF has been mere millimeters, I've just never had a need for AF fine tuning. So to have a knee-jerk reaction that "shooting fast primes wide open is out of the question" is just overblown histeria. My Canon 35/1.4L, 50/1.4, and 85/1.8 lenses have always delivered razer-thin DOF just fine on all my Canon bodies, APS-C and FF.

I have assistants and interns shooting Rebels, and they have no problem shooting fast primes either.

Comment edited 57 seconds after posting
12 upvotes
Juck
By Juck (9 months ago)

Bully for you T3,,, but it's there for a reason.

1 upvote
OYAHHH
By OYAHHH (9 months ago)

T3, Congrats on you and your friends ability to use a 50mm lens without AF fine tuning.

My 500mm F4 prime unfortunately consistently produces images which are back-focused whilst using my 60D. This makes a huge difference on a non-cooperative bird at 30 feet.

So once again, congrats for your good luck, but your luck is not always true for others, or perhaps you are not getting quite as good of shots as you think you are....

0 upvotes
Keith Reeder
By Keith Reeder (9 months ago)

"Bully for you T3, but it's there for a reason"

So by the same token, it was removed from the 60D for a reason - and the sky didn't fall in on anyone.

Comment edited 9 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Total comments: 359
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