Classic lines when clients want you to work for free: Digital Photography Review

Have not seen this one mentioned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

0 upvotes

my usual reply... go fuk yourself.

0 upvotes

My favorite, although not a quote asking images for free:

"Wow, great cameras, sure they have to take good pictures!"
-- "Yes, of course, we've taught them everything we know..."

2 upvotes

Haven't read this article but it prompted me to find an old Youtube clip that I loved so much. Very funny stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6B6OXnyaRk&list=FL_etESQ5PLjFbboxS3z2PCA&index=37

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"It will mean great exposure for you."

You're asking me, so I already have exposure.

0 upvotes

I have experienced such behavior before; it changes with good image and seriousness of approach. When you meet with client, he must be perfectly clear on what the positions are, without any additional input.

If you need to say that you won't do something for free, than you need to change the approach. People who want free stuff won't call you then at all, which saves time.

0 upvotes

Excellent and funny because it is so true...

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"but would be perfect punchline setups in an Aaron Johnson 'What The Duck' comic strip. Do any of these sound familiar? "

yes, they're very familiar, from WhatTheDuck. repeated at least twice.

0 upvotes

I'm self employed.... and yes I've heard them all ;) countless times.

people come up with the weirdest reasons why they should be worthy to get work for free or next-to-nothing.
Usual answer: no, but no thanks.

In the beginning 15+ years ago I would try to explain, try to reason, spend the time... these days I just politely, but quickly tell them that they don't get anything for free from me.
otherwise: waste of time.

2 upvotes

I have had many instances of clients asking for freebies or reduced rates over the years. Being a professional means its your profession, a means of supporting yourself and your family as well as maintaining a level of quality that people can trust, just like a solicitor, architect or accountant.
I never work for free, it is unprofessional, especially to my bank balance and to others in the industry. It never ceases to amaze me when you have a multimillion pound company quibbiling over the cost of a courier or the props bill. Can I go into a supermarket and then negotiate the bill at the checkout?
I occasionally offer my services free of charge to charities or friends and family but that's a whole different ball game. At the end of the day I would rather appoligie once for the fees that i charge than forever for the quality.

0 upvotes

I think the big misunderstanding here is that digital photography has created many more photographers that there used to be. And are desperate to become rich and famous like many aspiring models are. :-(

Also people mistake a photographer for an artist. Most photographers are in business to document events not create art. That's not to say they don't add artistic flourishes to their documentation work where allowed and where it makes sense and that they don't create artwork independently of their paying jobs.

Photographers are not starving artists trying to get-rich-quick. Artists imagined as rich are few and far between, and those almost always have had a special relation with a patron, certainly not because they were pop-culture popular in their own lifetimes.

I say this as a non-photographer with no interest in becoming a professional for money, fame, or work.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting

0 upvotes

I've heard all of those, and more than once!!!! Hilarious!!!... or sad. Funny thing is, is that no matter how far along you are in your photography career, you still get these.

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It reminds me of a saying from the dot com bust era: "We're losing money on each item, but we will make up for it in volume".

2 upvotes

I work as a freelancer on computers and photography, at the beginning I have done some works for free, but not for much time, I think all good work should be well payed. I think the digital times make things a bit more difficult to photographers because almost every one have a digital camera or friends with them and they think they can do the work properly without asking it to a professional.

All photographers should be payed for the work done.

The only thing I do for free now is being a moderator at Dpreview, but that is different and it is made for free will.

I really don't understand why some people underestimate the photographers and try to get the work for free. It is a thing that we photographers must fight , and explain why a professional work is better and should be payed.

4 upvotes

"I really don't understand why some people underestimate the photographers and try to get the work for free."

Sadly it's because many photographers will do it for free or a significantly reduced rate if the client just pushes hard enough.

Comment edited 24 seconds after posting

2 upvotes

Yes, reality is there are people who would work for free, especially by those that think it's just a cool enough opportunity (I was there) and that doesn't help anyone. That someone who shot for free gets nothing, anyone else he replaced definitely gets nothing, and the opportunity for that shoot is gone, unless the results are stunning. But one can't go far shooting for free, do that and it could let others know that you're "cheap" and competing purely on value is not a good position as opposed to "getting the job done, and with great results".

Too often I cave in to doing a no-pay gig though, but as always, keep a good attitude and I'll do the best I could with the limitations at hand (no pay means no rentals too) and often I'll at least get unexpected food/transportation covered and that's great. Otherwise, only for family should anything be free, for friends it's a choice, but still respectable to pay/be paid some compensation.

4 upvotes

I agree completely with those words.

Wise ones.

2 upvotes

If you do free work it might be a good idea tol send an invoice showing how much they would have paid and then a one time discount for the full amount so the total due comes out to zero. Then at least they will know the value they have gotten and that you did THEM a favor not the other way around.

2 upvotes

Josh, that's a great idea! Thanks, I'm going to do that!

0 upvotes

I've always been in the opposite position. People would offer me money, and I'd offer to do it only if it was for free. Most people turn me down, but I did shoot a wedding once (with very good results).

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Anyone who won't look out after their own financial interests will certainly not look out for anyone else's. I'm a realtor and we get hit with comments similar to these all the time. Anyone who works for free deserves to work for free.

3 upvotes

My favorite line is "Hey, you're invited to the party...can you bring your camera and take a few photos?". So I say "Of course!", but show up without my DSLR camera, eat all their food and drink like a sailor. When they ask "where's your camera?" I pull out my iphone - "Oh, you wanted me to bring my professional camera? I only use that dreadful heavy thing for paid gigs."

14 upvotes

The only time I work for free is for portfolio shoots where no one is getting paid. Beware of modeling agencies that are unscrupulous and will send you "New Talent" for photos, when in fact they're sending you paying customers that aspire to be models. Wont fall for that again unless I get my cut.

1 upvote

'If all goes well, it could lead to paid opportunities with our company.'

I've got this one a ton with music videos and corporate videos. I simply breakdown the equipment costs and their rental prices to the last bolt (even if I own some of the equipment I still include it as a wear and tear cost). I then point out that if I did this without pay I would actually be losing money, then I factor in my time and let them know what I would be getting per hour if I worked with a "real client" (hinting that I would walk if not paid).

It's hard sometimes, especially when friends and family ask, but the bottom line is I need money to live and this stuff cost money to use and takes time that I need to be using to make money. Usually people that ask for free work have no idea the actual costs involved and when laid out for them they respond better knowing that I'm not just charging outrageously but sometimes they really don't have any money and looking for a handout, which never helps anyone.

1 upvote

Harlan Ellison Pretty much sums this up here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

2 upvotes

Yes! Classic interview. "I don't take a p*ss without getting paid" haha.

2 upvotes

Wow that is great. He is is still right even today. It is the creatives who don't value and respect their own abilities enough to demand to be paid for them that cause the expectation to get creative work done for free or next to nothing to persist.

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The title of this article should be:

"WHAT MODERN SLAVERY LOOKS LIKE"

.

2 upvotes

or

"Cheap douche's how to deal with flugality!"

.

0 upvotes

From the viewpoint of a wedding photographer...
Yes I know it doesn't quite fit all five but #s two and four do so frequently.

'It will mean great exposure for you.'
--No, it won't. I'm on the wrong side of the camera to be exposed.
'If you don't want to do it for free, I know other photographers who will.'
--Then why are you asking me?
'We could just find a stock photo if you're not interested.'
--I can recommend a few companies if you'd like to save time.
'My cousin has a DSLR and I think I can get him to do it if you don't want to.
(My personal favourite, the cousin, aunt, uncle and I get this alot),
--You'll cry when you see the results so I recommend hydrating first.
'If all goes well, it could lead to paid opportunities with our company.'
--I love betting on "maybes" and "ifs". Sign me up. I mean, pass.

Comment edited 23 seconds after posting

7 upvotes

I have been offered money to photograph as i am not a pro i decline despite taking far better photos than your average mom and dad,
not at a pro level however, the reason i refuse is both that i do NOT beleive that i am good enough to take on a job.

AND in my country it is a crime to take a paid job for photographing if you do not have a license in photography
(yup no university school degree in photography? Then you cant work in the industry)

However i am allowed to take photos and if someone likes them they can purchase them, they are not allowed to hire me in advance.

Eitherway so far people have asked to buy a photo from me 4 times (an average joe not a company), i have declined each time and just given them an A4 sized print, why? I do not feel my photos are worth the money and i made someones day. Though for the love of me i dont understand those people wanting to buy a photo by me, they are mediocre at best.

0 upvotes

That's one of the pitfalls of a profession in which there are also many amateurs - some of them very, very good. Musicians are in the same boat. Nobody does plumbing, medicine, drywall, law, or medicine as a hobby. It's only gotten more challenging as equipment has gotten better and the barriers to entry lowered.

2 upvotes

"Nobody does plumbing, medicine, drywall, law, or medicine as a hobby."

I think this is part of the reason many people think they can talk the photographer into doing it for free. Because it is done as a hobby pro photographers are taken less seriously. They know the plumber is never going to fix your toilet for free or a big discount but a photographer probably likes what they do anyway and it seems so easy the client doesn't see why the photographer wouldn't want to give them a deal to ensure they get the job.

Comment edited 38 seconds after posting

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Sounds like Iceland and Europe in general. I'll be visiting Iceland in 2014 again. I joined these forums just to figure out which DLSR to buy for that trip.

I'd like to see those pictures.

Comment edited 50 seconds after posting

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Anepo wrote:
"AND in my country it is a crime to take a paid job for photographing if you do not have a license in photography
(yup no university school degree in photography? Then you cant work in the industry)"

How many of you would be willing to accept a scheme where photographers would need to be licensed in order to work?

How many 'professions' are there where all you need are the tools of the trade to promote yourself as a 'professional'?

I think we have all seen work done by 'non-professionals' that's
of excellent quality -- and there's even a school of thought which argues that it's the content not the object that counts.
Face it, we're in a "You press the button, we do the rest" business. Lots of people have figured out how to put a frame around reality -- 'professionals' just seem to do it better.

The business of photography is more about business than art.

0 upvotes

A local law firm wanted to use some of my images - for free, of course," for the exposure." I asked them if I did so would they provide me with free legal advice the next time I was in need - and I would, of course, tell everyone I knew how great they were. Needless to say, that is where the conversation ended.

In addition to photography, I've worked 40 years as a musician - same drill there (and the same answer - no freebies).

2 upvotes

My favorite musician story (a foaf/joke) goes:

A wedding planner called up a band to play for a wedding reception and, when quoted the price, was aghast at the cost. The musician told the planner that if she called up the local Plumbers Union and got the rate for 5 master plumbers to work from 6pm to 12am on Saturday night, that he would offer to do the gig for 1/2 of what they would charge.

5 upvotes

@JordanAT
Brilliant!!
I am gonna try remember that line if ever I am asked to work for free.

0 upvotes

I shot an aerial image of an ethanol plant as a target of opportunity on another job and later offered a large print to the management for $100. They said they had plenty of such images and I said "thanks" and headed for the door. As I did, the manager said, "I'll give you $10 for it," and I replied, "I'll give you 25 cents a gallon for ethanol," and left. I'm sure he found the print, crumpled up in the trash can by his secretary's desk. I have also answered people who question my prices by saying, "I have $25,000 in equipment and I have never been in a camera store and had anyone tap me on the shoulder and offer to pick up half of the cost of a new camera or lens."

Comment edited 46 seconds after posting

3 upvotes

A large multinational mining company wanted me to document one of their sites, it involved flying approx 6 thousand kilometers and a weeks worth of work. I put the quote in and was rather taken aback when they said that not only did they want me to do it for free for the chance of more work down the track, but they wanted me to pay for my flights and accomodation. When I politely declined the the PR person asked if they could borrow my kit to do the job themselves.

I am now retired and am so glad that i don't have to listen to this kind of crap any more.

8 upvotes

!

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This sums it up brilliantly! Go Harlan Ellison!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

7 upvotes

Holy f***!!!

That was DEEEEEEEEEEEEP!!

But he is totally correct!!! And right to be angry!! Bravo!

0 upvotes

I don't earn my living as a photographer, but I work for local government and I'm often assigned photography work.

Not that long ago, a very well-known national restaurant chain contacted the County as they had seen some of my images on the County's website and said that they wanted permission to use them in the restaurant's pending remodel. Since they were my images, I was notified...and though at first I was very pleased to know of their interest, it turned out that they wanted it all for free.

I wrote them a rather testy letter... were they expecting the contractors to work for free? The painters? The electricians? Were they going to have the wallpaper donated? Bathroom fixtures? No? Then why on Earth would they expect to get my work for free?

It all fell on deaf ears. In the end, they didn't get the photos they wanted, AND they lost a regular customer.

4 upvotes

In this case if you were paid by the county, legally the work belongs to the county, unless they signed a release giving you the rights. If it really was a famous national restaurant chain I would of asked for a small visible credit, receipt for work, and allowed the ad(s) to proceed.

...but since you probably aren't interest in a photography career it's just a well you turned them down.

0 upvotes

@Andy: You are correct... though in this particular case, they were my images shot on my own time that I have permitted the County (my employer) to utilize for promotional purposes.

I realize that I may be giving my employer a much better deal than I was willing to give the restaurant, but a: the restaurant is a for-profit business, and b: at the end of the day, it *is* to my benefit to allow my employer to use my images for various promotions.

Oh... as for the restaurant, the photos were not going to be used in an ad--they were intended as permanent framed images on display.

0 upvotes

Yes I've heard all those lines just about word for word. Aren't they shameless mongrels? You have to maintain your credibility and walk away. If you take a deep breath and maintain the viewpoint that in the long run it's best to be reassuringly expensive you'll have a long successful career.

I occasionally do jobs for Charities, NGO's and "Good Causes" but except for extraordinary exceptions I'll never do the job for free. Each project is assessed based on the apparent prosperity of the organisation and charged accordingly, often at around 50% of my standard rates.

The only things I'll do for free are not really free, it's an exchange/barter situation.

4 upvotes

Exactly, preserve your reputation. And as you said, i have done jobs without getting payed for, but received something else in value that was roughly equal or even worth more to my biz.

2 upvotes

Yeah, I agree with you both.

I also think that there's nothing wrong with working for free where YOU the service provider/photographer see that the person requiring your service genuinely doesn't have a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of; but that should always be based on your own assessment so as not to be ripped off.

But usually, when one is approached for a freebie the approach is made by someone or some entity that can well afford it but for whatever reason (e.g. trying to ingratiate themselves with their bosses by "cutting costs") they think they should get your work for free.

1 upvote

Haha, yes I heard it all, in every possible variation. True professionals don't have trouble laughing at such 'offers'. The problem are those who are struggling or those who are just starting out. They often fall for this because they hope it will lead to better jobs in the future.

1 upvote

Lots of interns work for free for the same reason.

1 upvote

I remember in college I was offered a job my senior year to intern programming a (some ancient computer system by now) but they wanted me to do it for free!

I politely said no but my face turned so red with embarrassment that I hoped they didn't notice. Don't they realize just getting to the site for a college student is a major expense to say nothing of feeding yourself away from the dorm. I mean I was walking 10 mile weekly round trips to donate plasma for $15 a pint for lunch money and they want me to work free.

0 upvotes

I've been in this situation hundreds of times. It is very easy to turn it around and either get a new client or quit wasting your time. Here is my response: I would appreciate the opportunity to work for you now and in the future. I will bill you my normal rate for the first job and give you a 50 percent discount on the next two projects. And if for any reason my work does not meet your expectations on the first job you may return my work and I will refund ( you have already been paid) your full purchase price.

3 upvotes

A partially good response; I would NEVER offer them the full refund because if they are a cheapo, and by definition they must be to have come up with the notion of you working for them for free, then you can bet your last penny that they will claim that your work didn't meet expectations so as to avail themselves of the refund thus getting your work for free (yeah, I know you can stipulate that they can't use your work if you give the refund but in this digital age where things are easily copied I would risk it)

0 upvotes

@plevyadophy

If you have it all written out in a contract, and you'd be a fool not to, if after taking the refund they violated your copyright and the contract by using the work anyway they would be doing you and your lawyer a very big favor in the form of a large sum of money from a slam dunk lawsuit that would likely result in you either being awarded high punitive damages or a settlement for a similarly large amount.

0 upvotes

NO photographer getting into the pro business needs to work for free, with a few exceptions. Instead, charge a fair price and provide a money-back guarantee. If your work is good, only complete jerks will ever take advantage of it, and you don't want them as customers anyway.

The exceptions are when you are hired to capture very rare occasions where you don't get a do-over, like weddings. Then you might work for free as a second shooter to learn the job.

2 upvotes

I am an architect and regretfully our profession can only survive by working for free. Its about exposure to the market. Architects with a starting firm work for about 95% for free in the first 5 years at least. Think of competitions and so on. Work fro friends and family, all for free or paid so bad you rather did for free.
I also worked as a architectural photographer. For years for free at first untill people started paying me.

The fact is all succesfull pro's did much of their work for free to get started. Succes comes from seeing what work for free will do you good sooner or later and what is just waisting your time. The fact that the work does not pay now means nothing yet.
But its very true that there are harmfull cliënts you should learn to avoid. One common feature they have is they seem to have plenty to spend.
Francois

2 upvotes

The more you work for free, the more your name gets out there as 'the guy that does it for free'. You ruin your reputation before you build it up.

6 upvotes

I remember one guys boasting that he did all the Big Freebies!

0 upvotes

And that is why, as a Structural Engineer, I try to contract with the owner directly instead of through an architect. Not only do many work for free intentionally, a lot of the rest are very bad at collecting fees due and even worse at paying.

Since day 1, unless it's a job I have a personal interest in or for a great client who is doing charity work, I never work for free. I don't give free estimates, I don't spend more than about 30 minutes of uncompensated time with new clients. I don't chase RFPs or proposals.

I've heard a bunch of the same or similar lines as photogs do, though, in an attempt to get me to work for less or free. Usually, I offer names and phone numbers of my competition at that point. I don't have the time or patience to deal with holding the hand of someone who doesn't appreciate the work I do.

3 upvotes

Only exception is for Charity, but it better be a damn good one!

4 upvotes

I agree im not a pro but i have seen pros not wanting to do for charity and its usually a great cause, however 10-20 photographers (very few pros but all just as skilled) get together once a year and do family photos for the poor around christmas, on the main forums in my country some of us let the photographers have laptops to process images on site, others let them have cameras and lenses if needed along with lighting equipment, they donate the time but the whole community helps out if they can to make this happen every year.

1 upvote

In the case of a charity you should at the very least make sure they know you are not "working for free" but making a one time DONATION of your valuable services to the charity. Maybe even fill out some kind of donation card or certificate showing the dollar amount of the services you are donating. It is an important difference.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 30 seconds after posting

1 upvote

With regards to charities I have found it wise to donate anonymously. Otherwise they bombard you with letters full of expensively printed postcards every month trying to get more money rather than more appropriately using the money to buy more food or whatever service the charity is offering. Most are not like that, but a couple of big ones are. I know how much food a dollar will buy. It might not be prime rib but it buys a lot.

0 upvotes

"This is your chance to get noticed by working free for our well known company!"

"More work will follow... hopefully paid..."

"This is a great offer from us... we'd like to support you..."

"We are doing you a great big favor..."

"Of course, all your images will belong to us, the copyright holders..."

What you feel inside...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyW8C8xvpUk

.

3 upvotes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

0 upvotes

But dont forget the free coffee at hq man :3

0 upvotes

So very common. The most common thing is being asked to work for very little, like $50 to shoot an home interior for a real estate company. "Offers" like that happen frequently. Then there's the client who needs something right away, you quote the price, they say, "Sure, sure, go ahead. Fine." They then balk when they get the bill and try to get you to lower it. A neighbor of mine, whom I once considered a friend, asked me to photograph a unique feature of a desk chair his company manufactures. The job took 5.5 hours from lighting to PP to conversion. I charged $325.00. He won't speak to me any more.

3 upvotes

If you give us a break on this, "There's more work coming..."

But, probably the best advice ever given to new aspiring freelancers:

"Never work on spec. The only way to get paid work is to do work on spec"

0 upvotes

It's a power play.

What happened to me was that the client was booking my services (not photography) but then kept cancelling them. This went on for weeks. I finally asked for an increase when he moved to another, more distant location. He kept stalling (had to get it approved) but in the end it was me who became booked elsewhere. There was nothing I could do but then I started to ignore his bookings and it all worked out.

4 upvotes

For an auto dealer:
Sure, I'd be glad to do it for free, if you'd just answer me one question: "How many cars do you give away from your lot in a week?"

7 upvotes

Not including transformers in disguise? ;3

2 upvotes

Yeah I had this earlyier this year. A professional sportsteam with around 60 miljion euro's budget wanted free images to cover their games.

I don't think so.

5 upvotes

If it was a german team dont worrie that is normal (watched two germans shout at hotel staff in bulgaria for thirty minutes over 50 cents in us currency. 50 cents per person)

1 upvote

"It will mean great exposure for you."

My mortgage company does not care how many people see my work. They care about how many pay for it. Exposure is nice but it does not pay bills

"If you don't want to do it for free, I know other photographers who will."

Their work is worth what you pay for it. They work for free because they are not good enough to get paid. Your considering me means a lot to me. If it means a lot to you, you will want to pay me.

"We could just find a stock photo if you're not interested."

Yes, but it will not be the photo you want. I can deliver what you want not just something you can find. Originality cost more because it is better. Better costs more.

"My cousin has a DSLR and I think I can get him to do it if you don't want to."

My son and daughter also have DSLRs. Want me to have them call you? You want a pro for the job or your cousin would be shooting it now.

We're not talking about the future. We're talking about the present. Right?

1 upvote


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Classic lines when clients want you to work for free

'It will mean great exposure for you.'

'If you don't want to do it for free, I know other photographers who will.'

'We could just find a stock photo if you're not interested.'

'My cousin has a DSLR and I think I can get him to do it if you don't want to.'

'If all goes well, it could lead to paid opportunities with our company.'

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