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Magic Lantern enables Canon 5D Mark III Raw video output

May 13, 2013 at 18:45:34 GMT

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Camera feature modifier Magic Lantern has developed a version of its software enabling 24fps Raw video output from the Canon EOS 5D Mark III. This news has grabbed videographers' full attention as it allows for individual frames of 14 bit output, yielding a much wider dynamic range than you'd get from standard 8 bit video files.

The Raw-video code isn't yet publicly available, but EOSHD's Andrew Reid has got his hands on an early, development-stage version of the software.

As always, even once made public, Magic Lantern warns that its software has been created by reverse engineering and cannot be guaranteed 100% safe. The camera output isn't in any standard format but it should be possible to transcode it into a more conventional format, such as CinemaDNG.

Click through to EOSHD.com to find out what makes Reid think 'the world just exploded.'

Click here to read Andrew Reid's first-hand account on EOSHD.

Image from EOSHD.com

VIDEO NEWS CANON MAGIC-LANTERN RAW-VIDEO VIDEO

Canon EOS 5D Mark III

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Canon EOS 5D Mark III DSLR Camera, Body Only●		Buy on GearShop
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Canon EOS 5D Mark III 22.3 MP Full Frame CMOS with 1080p Full-HD Video Mode Digital SLR Camera (Body)	Too low to display
Canon EOS 5D Mark III 22.3 MP Full Frame CMOS with 1080p Full-HD Video Mode Digital SLR Camera (Body)	Too low to display
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Canon EOS 5D Mark II 21.1MP Full Frame CMOS Digital SLR Camera with EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM Lens	$3,750.00
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Digital SLR Camera with EF 24-105mm L IS USM Lens with 64GB Card + Battery & Charger + Grip + Backpack Case + 3 Filters + HDMI Cable + Accessory Kit	$3,999.95
Canon EOS 1D Mark III 10.1MP Digital SLR Camera (Body Only)	$5,990.00
Canon EOS 6D 20.2 MP CMOS Digital SLR Camera with 3.0-Inch LCD (Body Only)	Too low to display
Canon EOS 5D Mark III 22.3 MP Full Frame CMOS Digital SLR Camera with EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM Lens Essentials Bundle Featuring The Sandisk 32GB Extreme , Canon custom gadget case , Extra battery , And 3 Piece Filter Kit	$3,999.00

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Comments

Total comments: 139

From DP REVIEW:

"....it allows for individual frames of 14 bit output, yielding a much wider dynamic range than you'd get from standard 8 bit video files."

Two quick points to make:

1. Why would anyone need to record 14-bit color depth video files with a pedestrian HDSLR.... when even $200,000,000 budgeted Hollywood feature films are shown only as 12-bit color depth Motion JPEG 2000 files in the world's commercial digital cinemas?

2. Video files these days can be 8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit, 14-bit, and 16-bit color quality files. I am not sure why out of all these, the 8-bit color depth would be classified as "standard."

0 upvotes

Well, "anything" above standard would commands higher price for video maker. :)
At least they could brag on "Technical issues" despite video techniques would be way more important, but what do clients know :D
(test chart & benchmark numbers are easy to compare).

Hopefully, with this, Nikon would realize and allow full/partial access to their codes/SDK/Library/etc. to developers/hackers.

Or maybe they still content with "Best consumer DSLR sensor" (based on DXOmark).

0 upvotes

sorry im new to ML, can i ask a stupid question, how do i get it, i read somewhere you have to donate etc, im confused because the older version seems to be up i dont see anything for the d3 or new

0 upvotes

just go to magiclantern.fm and download. They don't hack Nikon,, only Canon.

Comment edited 59 seconds after posting

1 upvote

It just sucks that Canon keeps winning the video war despite itself. First, they accidentally started the modern Indie filmmaking revolution with the 5DII, and now a ragtag team of hackers opens up more sales for them. If Canon had its way, it would protect its high end lines by continuing to cripple its entry and prosumer models, as it's been doing for years now. That the camera is capable of 14bit RAW video and yet they limited it to a minor upgrade from the 5DII at 8-bit says everything you need to know about the company's intentions.

It's a shame, because Blackmagic actually gave filmmakers everything they wanted at an unbeatable price, and then Canon hackers swoop in and make Canon the default again. I'll still keep my Pocket Camera preorder – still an insane deal – but the idea of having a full-frame RAW video camera, also capable of great stills (though I prefer Nikon), makes it an unbeatable option.

Still, BMPD still has global shutter, 4K and compressed lossless codecs.

1 upvote

Canon is an established company seeking into maintaining its position through expensive marketing strategies, BM has to build its market share, no surprise it has to give all it has to offer. We are not talking of altruism, just strategies to win or maintain the market.
To some extent I'd rather stick with a company that does know how to live even if I have to accept market games. At least I have a certain security that my thousands of dollars of gear are well invested. We have seen that even unquestionable giants (Kodak...) might have questionable future...

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 6 minutes after posting

0 upvotes

yarn, canon and apple are very much alike, i would not be surprised if apple purchased canon one day

0 upvotes

"Still, BMPD still has global shutter, 4K and compressed lossless codecs."

Still, the camera you are describing does not yet exist.... and based on Blackmagic Design of Australia's recent "track record" involving digital cinema cameras.... may never in fact exist.

The biggest plus with Canon EOS 5D Mark III and others like it is that you can actually like... you know... BUY them.

0 upvotes

so when is this getting ported to 6d :p

seriously, if this even gets released on an official ML build whle the 6d is still sitting in the beta stages, im trading in my 6d for a 5d mkiii!

this will almost certainly crush the BMCC's 4k/4k$ sales...

0 upvotes

How does this compare to the Nikon D600's or D800's uncompressed video output? Is this better? Still worse?

If it is better, how much better and why?

Could this be done on the 6D or is the 6D's buffer too small for this / it's image processor too slow?

Thank you!

0 upvotes

90 MB/s means 2:30 mins footage per 16 GB card or 10:00 mins per 64 GB card.
I hope you video guys have a couple 100 fast cards ready at hand. When a 16 GB 1000x Lexar professional costs about 80€ you'll have to spend like €2000-€3000 only on cards (for a wedding e.g.) ...

OR you use clean HDMI output of course (is this even possible with RAW footage?).

Thank god I don't do video... ;-)

0 upvotes

This hack is taking the IQ from a $3500 camera to what only cameras of >$15K can do. (well, maybe the Sony FS700, at $10K with the RAW recorder, could fight this too).

So, a couple of Transcend 128GB 1000x cards for $700 and you have an awesome movie-making machine with storage for 48 minutes of footage. Not bad if you ask me. But not for everybody, of course (working with these RAW files is painful).

Edit: these cards:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009S61AFQ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B009S61AFQ&tag=similaar-20&linkCode=as2

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting

0 upvotes

48 mins is going to be very tight if you don't exactly know what you're doing.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

0 upvotes

Offload to a pc when the card is full, no worries

0 upvotes

You'd have to be daft to use a RAW video workflow for weddings; this is far better suited to more deliberate, planned workflows. Nevertheless it is still possible to use RAW for things like documentaries, as evidenced by e.g. this: http://nofilmschool.com/2012/10/blackmagic-cinema-camera-mini-documentary-philip-bloom-ponte-tower/

0 upvotes

Or you could just dump the contents of the first card onto any storage device of your choosing while you're using the second?

Even if you had just one card it's not like it would take all day to copy the footage off and use the same card again.

0 upvotes

Bravo to Canon for letting people to use their SDK and libraries, hence the birth of such like CHDK & ML.
Pity on Nikon for keeping their source code so tightly secret.

As much as I like Nikon's DSLR (good sensors, ergonomics, lenses, IQ, Noise, DR, SNR, etc.), I envy canon DSLR & users.

Even for entry level like 550D or 600D, you could get HDR Video, needs PP though; but nevertheless of the problems, you could do it, unlike anything from Nikon.
With HDR video, you could almost compete with tens of thousands of dollars camera (Arri, Red, Black Magic, etc. 14 EV DR People!!!)

Don't really care about bitrate, youtube and the likes are compressing video so badly, means no problem with BR as long as it's higher than those websites.
But DR is very crucial in Video cause you can't fix what you don't have (blown highlights or black shadows).

0 upvotes

While Nikon may be secretive, Canon is hardly generous about their code. This is due more to the ingenuity and persistence of the developers.

Also, although youtube etc. do compress videos severely, the starting bitrate does matter and you do want as high as possible that you can handle, not just higher than the compression rate.

2 upvotes

Dont think that Canon is so generous.
Quoting from above: "As always, even once made public, Magic Lantern warns that its software has been created by reverse engineering and cannot be guaranteed 100% safe."

Key word here is "reverse engineering" meaning someone took up the painstaking job of trying to decrypt the camera's coding by monitoring what the camera is doing (by analysing camera dumps), then construct code that matches as close as possible that of what Canon engineers are actually using.

Since reverse engineering is effectively trying to recreate the SDK's and libraries, it will never be 100% complete hence the warning about 100% safety

Comment edited 23 seconds after posting

1 upvote

Why cant canon include options like this from the start??? They have to know it will draw even more interest. I already have my S95 hacked with chdk, why not hack the 5d now.

1 upvote

Canon has nothing to do with this hack.

0 upvotes

3DSimmon: I guess your link got too popular... "Error (509)
This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled! "

0 upvotes

Thank God! The current video from Canon was SOOOOOO awful!

0 upvotes

Reid announces he is breaking up with his great passion, the Black Magic cameras, and is now going back to his old love, the 5D, with its RAW makeover, courtesy of Magic Lantern. All very magical, surely.

Anyway, the test video does little to support the praise made for RAW. The shots of the border collies and woman are blurry, and so is the red hull of a sailboat in another. The results may be as dependent on the scene, lens, or post-processing, as they are on the codec. All must go through the same meat-grinder of compression. Might most viewers see substantially the same result if the shots came from a D5200 or even a humble LX7. Once compressed to 5mbps for streaming, what does it matter whether the original was shot at 17mbps or 90mbps? Does anyone guage the cost and time RAW adds to work in terms of equipment, memory space, or CS subsciption time and learning? The camera body and the codec turn out to be a tiny factor in the end. Music is a great vote-getter.

0 upvotes

jkoch2... why so negative? Are you mad bro? I think this shows just how bad Vimeo's 720p compression degrades high quality sources. There are definitely better ways to get 720p. It would probably look much better on Youtube 1080p. Anyway, Download the original 1080p mp4 file from the Vimeo download button and have a look for yourself.

5 upvotes

You dare fault Vimeo? Some prefer it. The point is that the sample shots suggest nothing superior about using raw. There's no side-by-side comparison. The stationary low contrast shots (tree) look OK but not better, the high contrast (red sail boat) shot bleeds, and the motion (walking woman) is smudgy. RAW frame grabs might be superior, and it may favor high-end editing, but not survive compression to what people actually see.

0 upvotes

jkoch2, what is your agenda? Something is making you blind to the truth here. This raw video is an incredible breakthrough for the 5D3. Listen, Vimeo is only 720p for free users. You have to pay them to be able to show your videos in 1080p.

Did you download the original 1080p? I put it on a memory card last night and watched it on a 50" TV. It looked better than any DSLR video I have ever seen. It is VASTLY, HUGELY better than standard 5D3 video. It's literally a different camera.

7 upvotes

5D2 H264 vs RAW Frame Comparison Photos:
http://tinyurl.com/cqplnum
http://tinyurl.com/c3qyp7l

Here is side by side comparison from the 5d mark2, see more including original links on magic lanterns Facebook page.

No doubt the difference is HUGE

0 upvotes

5D III RAW,,, Side by side at night,, pretty impressive.

http://vimeo.com/66083408

1 upvote

What is your problem?? Are you downloading the files or watching the lower res compressed streaming samples? If you watch the downloaded stuff are you using a proper video player?? You must be joking if you think the D5200 does anything like this get real!

2 upvotes

5D3 is already the best selling FF DSLR. This will make it even more attractive.

3 upvotes

I bought 60D because of ML, now I have reason to upgrade my 5D2 to 5D3. Canon should be thankful to those hack guys.

3 upvotes

quality is outstanding.

3 upvotes

5D3 just got turned into the best DSLR ever made.

3 upvotes

I hope they come out with Nikon RAW video output. But it looks like they're focused on Canon, and getting that done right, first?

0 upvotes

Might be tough to do since the Nikon liveview is so crummy and choppy and the liveview system is what this hack hooks into. Never say never but I have a feeling Nikon DSLR are not capable of doing this, at least not the recent ones with the choppy liveview. I forget but I think there is also some other tricky issue with hacking Nikon.

1 upvote

Magic Lantern is Canon-only hack group

2 upvotes

But the EOSHD mentions the possibility of implementing it in D600.

0 upvotes

EOSHD is wrong. At least it won't be Magic Lantern. That's Canon only hack group who have been around for years. They have never done anything on other brand other than Canon. That won't change

1 upvote

They mention the possibility of implementing on CANON 600d! NOT Nikon D600!

2 upvotes

Guys,

The Nikon D600 does have raw video output out of the box, without having to hack it. Is that not the same as what this is? If not, how is it different?

Thanks.

0 upvotes

DPReview007 , There is difference between uncompressed video (8-bit) like Nikon and RAW. RAW is RAW (like raw in still mode). Uncompressed 8-bit video is not RAW

1 upvote

8-bit uncompressed video is akin to TIF, not RAW.

0 upvotes

Somebody should do this for the Nikon d800e. With the ninja 2 that would perfect.

0 upvotes

How does this compare to e.g. the Nikon D600's uncompressed video output? Is this better? Still worse?

0 upvotes

is the D600 output 14 bit?

0 upvotes

This is better by a massive gulf.

7 upvotes

Just saw the comparison videos in youtube. The difference is breathtaking. I don't do video, so I wonder how people lived with such limited DR before.

1 upvote

Could you please elaborate? Why is the Canon's video "by a massive gulf" better than the Nikon's? Also, I'm not finding any comparison video on youtube comparing the Canons and Nikons. Could you please add a link?

Thank you!

0 upvotes

DPReview007 ,, sorry,, umm,, are you saying you're some kind of DPR secret agent with that name? Does your mommy know you're on her PC?

2 upvotes

Hah! Like the difference between trying to win Monaco with an F1 car or a Yugo.

1 upvote

@Juck
DPReview007 is trying to decide between D600 and 6D.

@DPReview007
I don't think there is any comparison video between D600 and ML enable 5D3. But you can have a look at 5D3 video comparison before and after ML.

Before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=7CANqYdhx_U

After
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHcZwMB5gKs

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 1 minute after posting

0 upvotes

nikon has no chance at all.
the hack will be ported to the 6D as well.

1 upvote

Uncompressed is already processed, not raw (which can benefit from entirely different re-processing without loss).
Such DR would be possible on uncompressed video-out if ADL was working on-line.
The difference is also that uncompressed video output requires a separate recording device.

0 upvotes

1st of all, the topic of the original news post and below text is irrelevant to most dpreview readers. This may sound snob. But it is true.

D600 and D800's "uncompressed" video output via HDMI is unusable at a production level due to moire, aliasing and other artifacts. These problems comes into the video feed along the processing pipeline. There's no single magic pill to fix it.

5D3's 1080p feed (soon to be "uncompressed" with firmware update) is better vs. D800 in terms of moire and aliasing but suffers from low resolution.

Now, the significance of Magic Lantern's RAW video output is to bypass 5D3's process pipeline and directly dump the RAW data at 24p or 30p framerate to the CF card.

With the cutting-edge Signal-to-Noise ratio and the enormous 35mm full-frame sensor area, coupled with powerful processing from a PC, you get the Arri level of image quality out of 5D3.

This is HUGE for the people who want CINEMA quality out of sub $5K hardware.

1 upvote

When will this capability come out for the 1D-X?

0 upvotes

I don't think its gonna happen...
http://www.eoshd.com/content/9432/1d-x-has-traces-of-1d-c-firmware-but-magic-lantern-will-never-touch-1d-series-as-canon-threatens-potential-hackers-with-legal-trouble

0 upvotes

Rumors has it, Canon threatens ML team with legal fist if they dare to touch 1D series...

0 upvotes

From the conclusion on that article, under "Is hacking legal?", it woiuld seem it'd be okay to touch the 1D series camera.

0 upvotes

thats what you'd think, but they've officially stated on the ML website that the 1d series will not be touched, at least not in the near future

0 upvotes

Yeah, I think they're just erring on the side of caution/no lawsuit.

0 upvotes

While I would not want to financially Canon for not doing any work that MagicLantern has done, I have to say the 5D3 is now a very serious and amazing tool for creation. Very conflicted here.

3 upvotes

very happy to see ML unlocking for us what Canon is unwilling to do, or Canon is hoping to hold back and 'reserve slower for future' model updates.

so... it means Canon's 'sensor tech' is not as bad as detractors claim, as Canon has now been clearly caught 'dumbing down' their products on the software side, not the hardware side. granted, it committing to software sophistication too early means patents get more complicated if they want to keep the 'release time/schedule' slower for 'future profits sake' (that is, if one releases a 'great idea too soon', it's patent life is prematurely shortened for 'profitable future variation')

it's great to have those like ML around to force a mfr's hand 'early', which forces them to 'let go' of better ideas (release) sooner/ahead of schedule than a mfr would like. haha: great for us!

Ironic, Canon is vindicated in other respects wrt their sensor tech they've been holding their cards much too close to their chest for much too long: no more!

sdyue

6 upvotes

Well, I'm happy to see this as well, but Canon's sensors haven't all of a sudden improved over night. Same old low DR, noisier at low ISOs, compared to Nikon, Sony and friends that is. Raw video output is to do with software and other hardware, such as processor, not the sensor, like with being able to output raw photos, many cameras do that now, some compact cameras that don't have great sensors as well.
But now raw video output means the best of the sensor's output is in use, and that's a solid difference to compete with others not outputting raw at all, and this could mean a huge impact on the market... other lower end cameras outputting raw video? I would like to see compressed raw like from the Black Magic Pocket camera, though that system may no longer have an impact with this ML hack moving ahead

5 upvotes

I don't think 'reserve slower for future' is the only reason they locked this feature down(but I don't reject the idea either!). Think about computer overclocking, it's doable, but risky. Any sane manufacturer will advise user to use their product within safe usage levels. This raw feature should be used with a large sign of "use it with your own risk".

0 upvotes

I personally got a bit sick of hearing how much better the sony/nikon sensors are. Granted, they offer better dynamic range, but where that is not required I think Canon is as good if not better. I.e. highlight clipping and skin tones rendering. Larger dynamic range is a huge benefit but not everything. Not to mention that in order to truly benefit from the extended HDR pictures need to be underexposed all the time.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

2 upvotes

Well true and false. There hardware has turned out to be mind-blowingly good for video and the new sensor they made especially to produce better video sure the heck does. They simply then hid it all for whatever reason. But yeah the video hardware in it turns out to be mind blowingly better than that in the Nikons or Sonys and clearly better than that of even the Panasonics.

But for stills it still has the same old weak dynamic range at low ISO and gets blown away by D800 for low iso high mp slow fps work.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

0 upvotes

They didn't "hid" it... The difference in the video above is mainly the result of DCT based compression, if you take the nice looking RAW video and compress it with Canons h.264 implementation with the same settings the camera uses you will end up with something that looks almost the same as the stock video file the camera creates! And just in case... I was involved in the development of actual MPEG4 ASP and AVC implementations, so I know what I'm talking :)

0 upvotes

~ On the nail again Steve. Well Done!

0 upvotes

Soulhunter - No, the codec isn't what's killing it my friend - if that were true, when you hook up an external recorder and record PRORES @ 220 megabit it'd suddenly be fine. It's barely any different - the H.264 codec is very efficient. I can show you some raw Canon footage encoded with H.264 - you're way off here brother.

Comment edited 11 seconds after posting

0 upvotes

All I have to say is this:

If they start pulling RAW video out of this thing, that's it. Game over, man, game over.

Period. You'll see this class of cameras take over the video world like a plague, and also very quickly the cinema world will follow.

Ask yourself the following question: what's the core difference between Canikon DSLR video, and the likes of RED or Alexa ?

Well, the proper cinema cameras output RAW, while the average Joe's DSLR don't.

In fact, the average Joe's DSLR may have an even better sensor than the cinema camera, but is crippled with lousy quality codec that ruins all the magic.

What happens if you level the game, with both outputting RAW?

That's it, game over, man. A new video / cinema revolution is coming.

12 upvotes

an old rule of photography for 100 years.
if you can do it in post, do it in post.
leave the execution to stupid.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

2 upvotes

"Ask yourself the following question: what's the core difference between Canikon DSLR video, and the likes of RED or Alexa ?"

2k-3k versus 5k or 6k, 24fps versus 90fps to 120fps, 12 stops of dynamic range versus 16 to 20 stops.

3 upvotes

Let's not forget global shutter, and an array of physical outputs, compatibility with many industry standard hardware, and as mentioned above, a lot more DR for the cinema look, and for flexibility in all situations. And I agree about the frame rate as well, so far 24FPS seems to be it for the MarkIII, high end cameras doing a lot more with that, when you want at least 60 for some slow mo. Still, if I can get faster cards, and the hack becomes available on the Mark II (so far, kind of) then I will have to try it out once it matures for better workflow

4 upvotes

the frame rate is real problem. others can be handled.

0 upvotes

Yeah, but you guys didn't get my point.

Sure there's a lot more to these cinema cameras, of course.

My point was that once these DSLRs start to output RAW, the IQ at normal shooting speeds (24fps) and 2k resolution (which still is the standard for most productions) is basically the same between cine cameras and DSLRs.

The same for all real purposes. Sure someone will test them at the extreme ends of the chart, and find hair-splitting differences.

My point is that regardless of price difference, the RAW output from both will be near identical for all practical purposes.

PS: don't get fooled thinking the more resolution, wooow, instantly the better.

Cine cameras do not sell by megapixels like the consumer oriented D800.

A proper high quality 2k camera is still the most desirable for big budget productions, and it's "only" 2k, just like your DSLR.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting

2 upvotes

I would agree with you if they could get the higher-end DSLRs to accurately and silently AF in video mode.

0 upvotes

There's still a difference between the quality you get out of an Alexa or Red Epic and the quality of the raw video from the Mk. III both in terms of resolution and exposure latitude.

Raw files don't magically increase image quality -- they only increase image FLEXIBILITY. The jump in IQ in the Mk. III's raw output compared to its compressed video is an exceptional anomaly; most cameras have virtually the same resolution between the two formats (compare the 5D's JPEG and RAW still images, for instance). So, now that the Mk. III shoots raw, it has the same level of post-production flexibility as an Alexa or Red (which is awesome, don't get me wrong!).

I don't want to downplay the Mk. III's raw -- it's amazing and groundbreaking -- but context is important. Raw isn't what made the Alexa popular; most productions using the Alexa don't shoot raw on it -- they shoot ProRes because the image still looks just as great, despite losing the editing flexibility.

0 upvotes

I'm a loyal reader of EOSHD and I have learnt a lot from their posts. Definitely a must-read for any aspiring movie or film-maker.

I've followed the RAW video ability story from early on and I was not convinced this was doable. So this is rather unbelievable and a huge news.

If you look at the DR in sample screen grab or read the prior posts by EOSHD on this topic you will see an enormous improvement both on ER and details.

Among critics 5D III footage is soft and in actuality many complaint the video resolution is far below the stated 1080P. The RAW video brings such a beautiful detail as compared to canon's output footage that this will make canon's 5D III (and hopefully 5DII) into the ultimate indie filmmaker tool. For now many shooters are using the ML hacked GH2 but micro 4/3 crop doesn't have the the same look as the 5DIII full-frame and if ML can pull this off you will see a ton of movies on TV Shows, and indie movies produced by this camera.

10 upvotes

The GH2 hacks are by an independent group led by VK. Magic Lantern did not do any hacks for any Panasonic cameras. Your facts are wrong dude.

0 upvotes

There's little to no chance of this being used on a TV production.
Any production with a substantial budget and insurance to worry about most likely won't touch this because of the nature of it being a hack. Even if it's proven to work reliably, it's still outside the regular functionality of the camera and would probably be deemed an insurance risk.

0 upvotes

Canon definitely won't like Magic Lantern since they're loosing control over what features are enabled or disabled. The 6D is a great example of how Canon purposely handicaps a camera in multiple ways. The question is whether Canon will attempt to block Magic Lantern by a firmware update or make Magic Lantern really difficult/impossible to implement in future cameras. And of course, they can always sue.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 1 minute after posting

2 upvotes

ML has been enhancing Canon DSLR's since 2009 or so, for the early 5d2. Note that the firmware for the 5d3 is a "Nightly Build" addition to their pre-beta.

For both video and non-video users, ML has recently implemented "automatic dot-tune" for micro-focus-adjustment. Also RAW histograms. And much, much more. Amazing stuff.

2 upvotes

Canon does not handicap anything.

According to your definition of "handicap", Toyota handicaps the Yaris by not equipping it with a V8 engine.

If there was no product differentiation, no company would ever make any money.

1 upvote

@whtchocla7e - but in this case the Yaris DID have a V8 engine

5 upvotes

Well a Yaris does not have a V8 engine that is using only 6 cylinders because Toyota wants to sell another car for more money. The capability is there in the Canon camera you just haven't had the ability to access it. Big difference. I am not sure Canon can do anything about it except void your warranty. I can put a different OS on my computer, once I own it I can do whatever I want. Just like putting a super charger on a car, if the engine blows its on me. Federal court just ruled that phone companies cannot prevent you from jail breaking your phone if it is yours and not under contract. I cannot see how Canon can prevent me from changing the Camera or prevent a group from helping. It gets even harder since ML is not even charging.

2 upvotes

That's not the issue. The issue is "entitlement" and "naivety". Saying that Canon locks or hides features on purpose is just naive.

0 upvotes

@whtchocla7e A better analogy would be if Toyota sold you a Yaris with an engine that could output up to 150hp but with an engine control unit that limited it to a maximum of 80hp.

2 upvotes

Guys, Nikon does it too, not just Canon.
When you see a maker disabling a feature that has nothing to do with hardware (for example, no bracketing in a lower cost model), what do you think that is? Your allegations that this isn't happening is just myopic and naïve.

4 upvotes

"According to your definition of 'handicap', Toyota handicaps the Yaris by not equipping it with a V8 engine."
No. According to Benarm's definition, it would be exactly like Toyota putting a V8 on every Lexus — only to disable the fuel injection to 2 cylinders on the V6 models so they can charge more for the fully functional V8 version.

4 upvotes

@Timmbits - yes but not to the same degree. Heck Canon still hasn't finished dribbling out something as simple and trivially basic as fully working AutoISO over a decade.

And I don't believe the D800 hardware is capable of video of this quality no matter what firmware it ran. Look how choppy and aliased the liveview on it is and look at Canon liveview.

0 upvotes

I'd say it's closer to Toyota placing an electronic rev limiter on their car which limits its top speed to 130 mph. Then, Magic Lantern comes along and removes the rev limiter allowing the car to generate more power at higher RPMs and to exceed 150 mph.
The downside might be that the engine wasn't tested to handle those high RPMs, and the frame wasn't tested to handle those high speeds. So, the car wears out faster and is at risk of breaking down. In the event it needs to go in for repairs, insurance might not cover it since the user had modified the car outside its original parameters.

0 upvotes

Magic Lantern just save you $1000 or more, Canon users to spend on their next model, is usually how brands extort their customers for a small favor :)

0 upvotes

So users can now spend that $1000 on fast enough cards for raw video output~

0 upvotes

Much cheaper than spending $70,000 on an Arri Alexa to do it Nishi.

1 upvote

Or cost you $2700 as you rush out to buy a second 5D3 ;)

1 upvote

Nonense. EOSHD. Alexa has 14 stops of DR. Canon RAW, even in still mode, doesn't have anything even close to 14 stops. See dxomark

Comment edited 27 seconds after posting

0 upvotes

it's kind of stupid to compare it to the alexa ... (the alexa has so many other things that matter !)

i would compare it to the bmc though... (bmc will clearly be better at 4k, and maybe at full hd, it will be capable of recording more time and more surely, but you can't neglect the fact that there you just buy the striped down video camera and not a photo camera + a video camera )

0 upvotes

@ET2 - DR at 100 view 22MP is not the same as it would be at 2MP, the RAW video might have better as it trades spatial resolution away for less noise in shadows and the highlight levels still have to remain the same and Alexa and such are more like 2MP to compare to than 22MP (that said I'm sure the Alexa is no doubt better in many ways but all the same this is utterly mind blowing and nothing else remotely like it comes close)

0 upvotes

bronxbombers4, dxomark calculatipon of 11.7 stop is based on 22 MP down-scaled to 8MP.

Also, how do you know the Canon in video mode doesn't skip lines and pixels? That will further reduce the DR even more than what Dxomark suggests for full-sensor 8MP

It's not that mind blowing. Both Black Magic cameras record RAW, too

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

0 upvotes

But video does not consist of 4 megapixel frame grabs.

If people watch two video samples on You-Tube, both streamed at 5mbps, but one originally based on the 50mbps MOV h.264 files the 5D normally uses, and the other based on 90mbps RAW, which must later be compressed anyway, would they see any difference? Most of the difference would probably owe to other filter effects applied in the edit process. RAW might be more flexible for complex commercial studio editing, but of no more use to anyone else than to have an 18-wheel truck in the driveway.

0 upvotes

Read the article. The DR gains are huge.

7 upvotes

jkoch2 -
you're missing the point. Read the article and prior posts by EOSHD. Otherwise, this improvement is not really for you.

1 upvote

If you did absolutely no post work to either files, then indeed you'd see little difference (except in high movement scenes), but as soon as you start "grading" your files, the difference will be great. Read to any jpg vs RAW debate, and it's the same deal.

2 upvotes

Dude, you have no clue I just shot high DR and compared frames from best without ML and with ML RAW and the difference is ridiculously huge!!

0 upvotes

If Canon really wanted to stop Magic Lantern, they could. But in their interest they don't as it creates another market of users.

Take Apple Iphone. If Jailbreak never existed for it, I don't think it would of taken market share as it did.

Playstation 1. It didn't really take off until it was hacked.

3 upvotes

You're wrong about the iPhone. It is a consumer product and as such 99% of users have no need for the hacks. I'm guessing the same applies to most smartphones.

3 upvotes

The vast majority of iPhone users are completely tech-inept. That how they sell so many,, pure lowest-common denominator.

12 upvotes

" it would of taken"

Is that a thing?

2 upvotes

Hey Juck, you're a funny guy. :-) Rotflmao.

1 upvote

lowest common denominator, but the best phone still I believe unless you need more than a phone. I own a galaxy note II and I absolutely love it. Nevertheless it lack the reliability and ergonomics of and iPhone by a long shot.

0 upvotes

Canon should be thankful they make awesome lenses.

0 upvotes

Hopes it forces other vendors to improve their cameras, it is kind of embarrassing for Sony that the A99 is so poor on video.

Comment edited 39 seconds after posting

1 upvote

Sony has a full fleet of professional video camera equipment. If you want better video camera, get the FS-700.

1 upvote

FS700 is very nice for slow mo, but actually the image in raw on the hacked 5D Mark III is much more cinematic looking. The FS700 costs £8000 here in the UK, the 5D Mark III is £2500. Big difference! Sony do need to improve video on their DSLRs, they are behind Canon and Panasonic by a considerable margin when it comes to image quality. RX1 is such a lovely stills camera. Such a shame there's such a big gap from the stills to video quality on a premium flagship camera.

3 upvotes

I'll pull the trigger immediately if it can do 4k in 5 mins

Comment edited 27 seconds after posting

1 upvote

Do you have a 55" 4k monitor?

0 upvotes

Do you mean this one? http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7674736&Sku=S874-5004

0 upvotes

jkoch2 There are at least three good reasons to want 4K recording even if neither you or anyone else has a 4K monitor:

1. Downsampling 4K to 2K improves image quality substantially
2. Recording at a higher resolution allows you to crop the footage and still produce full HD.
3. Green screen work and effects compositing look a lot better when done at a higher resolution and downsampled.

1 upvote

When does the Lantern Light go on @ Canon ?

Comment edited 22 seconds after posting

2 upvotes

ML makes Canon look like a bunch of old men more worried about what to order for lunch than changing the world. But changing the world is what Canon could be doing if they wanted too. As with the 5D2 and video, Canon had no clue what they had then and no clue now.

1 upvote

Betcha the engineers knew, but marketing squashed it.

Comment edited 7 seconds after posting

2 upvotes

There's a difference between what you product can technically do, and what your product can do reliably enough to enable the feature without unleashing a massive technical support burden.

0 upvotes

One would think Canon would just buy out Magic lantern, or their engineers, and put this stuff into their camera's to begin with? I know, crazy thought to make a product to max out it's abilities, when someone else can just take your product and make it better for you. That doesn't make you look foolish, does it?

3 upvotes

Canon allready knows what the EOS 5D Mk III can do but keeps the specifications limited by manipulating the software inside the body. They never learn.

10 upvotes

Canon could buy out or sue MagicLantern, followed by keeping everything the same (read: their profit)

0 upvotes

I bet Canon makes expensive video equipment too... if they bought them out it would only be to shut them down, so that their DSLRs can't compromise video equipment sales.

0 upvotes

Canon has at least 2 reasons:
1. It doesn't cost Canon to have Magic Lantern right now
2. Canon has it's more expensive video cameras to protect

That said, I do wish these advanced features are supported by the default firmware if the hardware is capable of doing it.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 2 minutes after posting

1 upvote

well you have to take a look at it this way .. ML add on - if it screws up your camera .. oh well. don't use it.

If canon software engineers screw up the firmware - they are obligated to fix it.

It's alot easier for ML to rapidly implement features and release code because they are only working on released cameras, with a very limited ... well, zero warranty.

@MediaDigitalVideo .. everyone does it .. do you not think most cameras could have additional feature sets if someone hacked the firmware and improved it?

Comment edited 1 minute after posting

3 upvotes

I'm a ML semi-newbie, but my impression is that the ML developers are all volunteers. Occasionally, the website will ask for donations to help acquire a recently released model.

0 upvotes

It's probably the marketing guys locking the engineers in the basement kinda issue and not that they don'thave the people there to easily do all of this and more.

Also how can you buy out something that doesn't exist? ML is not a company. It's unaffiliated hackers working together towards something fun and great.

0 upvotes

90 MB/s data rate. That is impressive. I need a new memory card. Well, and a 5D III

3 upvotes

There are 1000x and 1200x CF cards - up to 160MB/s You'll be able to shot 1920x1080 24/25fps - here are samples, btw:
http://fil.io/FL5s6/Canon%205D%20Mark%20III%20RAW%20videos
2 dngs and 2 clips

1 upvote

To shoot the same stuff aht (at the end of the day) woould appear the same to viewers who can't stream at 90mbps and who don't have a big 4k screen?

0 upvotes

jkoch2 - you're repeating your one-track mind over and over. I understand you have no perspective into the world of indie filmmaking and the impact this camera has. Please do us all a huge favor and read on EOSHD and their prior blogs. Especially about movies shot with ML version of GH2 that are now showing in the movie theaters or the 4K cameras that are being built and used for filmmakers. Even if you don't like the 4K or have no need for it, take a look at the change in DR as well as the sharpness and details of the video created.

But as you said some people all they need is the video or photo from their iphones and this new is meaningless to them

6 upvotes

I hope it does not get hot as hell while recording

5 upvotes

it might actually be cooler since they don't need to run the h.264 compression engine chip ;) and liveview was running the whole time in video mode and liveview mode anyway

1 upvote

i tried to download the ML stuff but its dated 2012 and says mkii, you would think that they updated their web page and be clear on the info, then before i even attempted to try ML raw whatever i found out you can not even see the files unless your on a darn PC, hmmm; sounds like a mess and you need the older 1.13 version on your camera to update.

anyone fill me in on this, was i too excited and went to the wrong website?

0 upvotes

Please read the second paragraph of the article you're commenting on...

Comment edited 1 minute after posting

0 upvotes

Total comments: 139

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