Poll: What concerns you most about Adobe's move to subscription software?: Digital Photography Review

Adobe stock prices down 3.4% from yesterday hope this downward trend continues, this might get somebodies attention.

10 upvotes

Will be visible in 1 W or M, if it is a drop because of all this!

0 upvotes

Just whent down to 3.49%

1 upvote

They were going to sell a couple million upgrades to CS7 and LR5.... not anymore...there is absolutely no way they can make that up in Subscriptions, considering the backslash... I see Mr Samosa CEO being hanged by shareholders a year from now.

0 upvotes

SemperAugustus: "there is absolutely no way. . ." Really? You know this?

0 upvotes

I think this poll is missing one very important option.
Lack of choice between cloud service and ability to buy "hard copy" of PS.
People, and not Adobe, should make decision what is the best choice for them, because thanks to millions of customer Adobe exists.
They ask people to tests new versions of their software but they do not ask us about this dramatic change.
We want to have a choice !

11 upvotes

You already have an alternative, but you're too much of a blind/loyal customer to notice.
It's simple : buy/use the competing product
If you aren't aware of such products you haven't done the research you ought to have done to begin with.

That is the reason why Adobe will succeed with stunts like this.

0 upvotes

JaFo !
I wrote about the poll.
We have only options about Clouds but there is no chance to say that we like to have choice between "virtual" copy and "boxed" copy of PS.
We do not want to give up on PS for so many reasons, that is why so many people, here and there, express negative opinions about this deal.

2 upvotes

About the poll: I understand that, strictly speaking, yours would be the first option, namely "having to repeatedly pay to retain access" as opposed to paying just once for a "boxed copy" of PS.

0 upvotes

Correct !
But it is not so clear like:
lack of choice between "virtual" copy and "hard" copy of PS.

0 upvotes

On Adobe forum, asked about ongoing ACR updates.

created by MadManChan2000 in Adobe Camera Raw - View the full discussion
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ACR 7.4 is the last 7.x version. However, ACR 8 will soon be available for both CC and CS6 users. (This is a departure from the past, in that the new ACR 8 will be available for an older Ps version.) New camera support and lens profiles will be included with this ACR 8 update, so if you currently have CS6 and all you're looking for are the latest camera support, camera profiles, and lens profiles, you will be all set.

1 upvote

... for a given time...

6 upvotes

Until they pull the plug..

3 upvotes

their sales used to somehow measure their innovative and supportive efforts, so reflecting the value of a software developer company more fairly, lets say...so by targeting a steadier cash flow stream, they try to avoid the reflection of those ups and downs in their developping abilities onto the cash generated..this can be seen as a hedge against their own business model, but the fee is paid by the customers..so the price includes both the product usage and the promise by the company to develop and excel their products and this exactly what makes its overpriced

0 upvotes

Significant side effects on other companies and authors. I will continue to use Photoshop CS6 and not subscribe to Photoshop CC (I own the CS6 disc and CS6 will be on my computer for ever at no extra cost).

I am a NAPP member but I will not renew; NAPP will only involve PS CC from now on (useless to me) and no more trips to Photoshop World. Dekes Techniques and all of his books in the future will be about PS CC; I will no longer buy his books (I have many). I will no longer subscribe to Linda.com nor KelbyTraining.com for photoshop training. I will not buy future books on Photoshop and I have many (by M. Evening, K. Eismann, J. Schewe, and many others). I will not be looking at Photoshop Blogs by John Nack, Julieanne Kost, Scott Kelby, etc.

This move by Adobe is going to hurt many companies and authors that rely on future Photoshop releases, excuse me, I mean future Photoshop CC updates. I have really enjoyed the ride for many years but it has ended.

26 upvotes

I hope the majority is willing to do what you say.

I fear the worst.
Adobe will win and we as consumers are going to lose, because the vast majority does not care about the danger.

0 upvotes

I am planning to follow your path. I actually have my own MeetUp where I am promoting PS Workshops, I will change them to Alternatives to PS... because frankly, I don't see newcomers adding a monthly bill just because Adobe thinks PS is irreplaceable.

1 upvote

JaFo: Or maybe there really is no danger.

0 upvotes

Adobe is doing what it wants, and not what customers want. Adobe has a near monopoly, and is turing that into a narcissistic dictatorship. Many professional artists are a bit like farmers with unsteady income that Adobe now wants to tax...consistently.

If Adobe has the best product in the world, the product will stand and deliver on its own and not require anti-competitive coercion.

0 upvotes

An interesting question I have is this:

In general, how much do you plan on spending on photography per year?

I think this question will make things a bit clearer.

I take it that many here don't plan on spending more than $500 per year?

0 upvotes

You lay out a SINGLE lump of cash for a lens, a body, a filter, a bag, etc.

You don't have to add a monthly bill to your budget.

THAT is the problem. I suspect most would pay a little more up front and OWN the product than to add another monthly bill, which is an inconvenience and an uncertainty.

This move by Adobe is downright customer hostile - they have become arrogant like Microsoft.

6 upvotes

Well, what can one buy for $500?

A nex 3 series, late model, new
Full set of legacy primes from 28 to 200mm
Tripod and all necessary accessories

or

Photoshop

If you chose photoshop, your choice next year is:

Photoshop

The next:

Photoshop

And who knows how long you'll be able to afford it even if you could squeak it by this year. Pricing is at Adobe's whim, is it not?

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

9 upvotes

What aspect of photography are you referring to? How much on a camera? Accessories? Travel? Time preparing? Time post processing? Here's a scenario:
A person buys a 7D, PS CS5, a few accessories, and a decent lens. After four years of shooting their average expenditure per year for all their hardware and software (new PS license, new camera body, all new everything, nothing used or upgrade license pricing) is around $1,000 per year (assuming $4k for everything up front and not taking into account any prints they make or profit made from selling anything). Their PS/ACR software will keep working with their setup for another 4 years, at which point the average will be $500 a year. Now, for 8 years instead of spending $650 on PS CS5 one time they had to ay for PS monthly that whole time for $30 a month for a total of $2,880. The average over 8 years is now $6,230/8=$779. What else could have been done in that time with the extra $2,230 that Adobe wants? Oh wait, it's just surplus!

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

4 upvotes

Your post smacks of someone who has a very different set of priorities than many of us, has too much money, or has some reason not to value money as others do. If I choose to place my priority on buying a cup of coffee at SBucks every day, that is my prerogitive and Adobe has no right to my "discretionary" spending. My "surplus" is only as I personally define it in the context of MY priorities. Thank the universe for whatever free will I have, because if I had to share your will I'd throw us both off a bridge.

2 upvotes

I'm speaking about everything photography related for ONE year. Not 8 years cumulatively or 4 years, but ONE single year. Not "scenarios", but simply ONE year. No offense, hostility, or incivility towards you, but I ask a straightforward question, and you give a "scenario?" I don't get it.

I'm speaking of equipment, software, repairs, training, rentals, travel, model fees, printing, insurance (if it's your thing), legal fees or anything else. Yes, for the hobbyist.

I set aside between $1200 to $2000 each year but I usually never spend that much. The minimum is $500 per year. If I can't afford that, I'm cutting it close because I may not even have enough to replace my own equipment. Or I might have to seriously cut back. Anything could happen.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 7 minutes after posting

0 upvotes

What do you think "per" means? Total spent/#years=$ per year. How much will I spend on photography this year only? Okay, I'll spend as much as I can in time on post processing and I'll spend as much as I can in travel money to take me to places I wish to photograph. Why? Because years ago I made an investment in many different things, including a camera and PS. THAT was a banner year for blowing thousands of dollars on photography related items. Since then, I've gone places, stayed at home, and done commercial work. Those expenditures don't exist in the vacuum that you only wish existed.
So given YOUR scheme, wouldn't you rather spend $30X12 this year on something other than just the honor of using a program that you typically spend less than $360? If you consider my expenditures on PS since the first buy (CS, CS3, CS5 for a grand total of about $1,200 since 2003) that's $120 per year versus the $360/yr. price hike, which is huge. And I'm not done with my 7D yet by a long shot.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 6 minutes after posting

2 upvotes

Marques, you want others to have your budget and priorites. We don't. I'll use my CS5 until I can't any more and Adobe will have nothing to lure me into staying. Long and short of it. If it is worth it to you, bully for you and carry on in good health. For many others it is a big "screw you guys" from Adobe. They want more money for services NOT rendered....or services we absolutely do not want. I'd rather blow $250 to upgrade next in a year or two than spend $360 a year for the rest of my life....that money can be much, much better spent or much better saved. We're happy that you can afford it and have no other plans for that money. As of now about 95% of us do have other plans.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 2 minutes after posting

3 upvotes

Thanks for your reply howardroark.

0 upvotes

It's a privacy issue also. They can give all the assurances they want but, in the end, your work is no longer yours. Who knows who is looking at it and doing what with it?

Of course, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've nothing to worry about.

5 upvotes

I am already a slave to one "A" (Apple) I have no desire to become a slave to the "other" A. I have Photoshop CS4 installed on one of my computers, but never use it. Aperture and Pixelmator take care of all my needs, because I am a photographer, not a graphic artiste, and if I have to putz around with a photo for too long, it's not worth keeping. Move along to the next one...

Still, I can understand and sympathize with the frustrations I read here.

3 upvotes

Has anyone read the terms and conditions of CC. Onerous isn't the word.

Examples:
"Adobe may modify or discontinue, temporarily or permanently, the Services or Materials, or any portion thereof, with or without notice. You agree that Adobe shall not be liable to you or anyone else if we do so."

"You agree that any claim or dispute you may have against Adobe must be resolved by a court located in Santa Clara County, California, United States of America"

"You agree that Adobe may display advertisements adjacent to Your Content, and you agree that you are not entitled to any compensation."

"You agree to receive updates (and permit Adobe to deliver these to you with or without your knowledge) as part of your use of the Services."

"Adobe may require you to create a unique URL, such as your_name_here.adobe.com. Adobe may permit another User to use the unique URL previously selected by you."

Welcome to the future.....

23 upvotes

TLDR version: You agree that you have no rights other than pay your subscription on time.

5 upvotes

Unbelievable arrogance from Adobe!! Thanks for the enlightenment on the T&C for CC.

10 upvotes

FOK U and your whole Crew!

2 upvotes

Hi,

I copied your post with the onerous terms and added it to my post on Digital Grin. i didn't think you would object to getting this info out.

Sam

2 upvotes

I find this quite disturbing.

1 upvote

The CC model totally defeats the purpose of a "personal computer".

If enough people sign-up for this, other companies will follow with similarly cynical, self-serving product offerings.

0 upvotes

the bad news :
the future is already here

Anyone who has dealt with digital media has had to sign similar 'contracts' already.
Sure, sometimes there is enough backlash to cause such companies to reword their changes. However in reality they're just waiting till we're asleep.

It's a damned shame that no government is willing to protect the customers and too few consumers have the money to sue them.

0 upvotes

What concerns me is that this obviously is not what their customers want. If they create an enticing new upgrade people are excited to purchase it. Adobe appears to be trying to sidestep that philosophy and still make money.

As a shareholder I am also concerned about the continued stock price decline, (another 3% today).

This should be a great opportunity for Other software companies to give the customers what they want.

3 upvotes

And you honestly think that other companies won't follow that pattern ?
The 'software as a service'-idea isn't exactly new.
It's what all software companies will use if they need to survive.
At least that's what managers believe ...

0 upvotes

Thinks stinks of an Adobe 'sponsored' poll. The cage has been well and truly rattled.

2 upvotes

Sadly you are possible right. Any way they will read our opinions and points of view, they will know that we acknowledge they are showing us his teeth, we all ( mostly) are quite aware of that.

1 upvote

Most of us feel screwed by Adobe and will look elsewhere. I wonder whether Adobe was forced into this new pricing because they are at the tail end of innovation. Witness the paucity of new features in CS6 versus CS5. How do they get income when they are at the end of innovation? Charge a monthly rent. Then, whether they innovate or not, they get paid. Now they will have no incentive to innovate.

13 upvotes

This comment shows exactly what the real problem is with the rental scheme, and that once you're invested, you either have to continually pay for upgrades you may not want, or lose the upgrade you've already paid for since you started the service.

What does it show? That each user needs to be able to choose whether an upgrade is worth the cost. I happen to think CS6 was well worth the upgrade from CS5...the revised processing engine dramatically sped up overall operation, and the Adaptive Wide Angle tool is worth it for that alone. BUT, different users have different needs, and many people did not think CS6 was worth it and chose not to upgrade at that time. With CC, that option is gone. You either pay to upgrade forever, or you never upgrade again.

5 upvotes

What I concern the most is the consumer loosing his power. This online software rented service is a total unacceptable situation. Software has been treated in a special way by the copyrights laws all over the world, they are not treated like works of inttelect, like art and literature, nor like a industrial property. Right now adobe see the fissure and take advantage, what will be able to do in the future when we are trapped in their pen bleating adobeeheeeheee, adobeeheeeheee? I am a Lightroom user and when I see my neighbor's beard burn, mine get soaked.

3 upvotes

I wonder how many people would complain if you could use a new Nikon D800E, Nikon D4, Canon 1Dx or a Canon 5Dmk3 for $19 a month and then after a year decided to return it?

3 upvotes

It wouldn't be $19 per month. Take a look at the camera rentals.
Adobe is charging $19 per month for a product that costs $399. For a product that costs $3999 it would be $190 month on the same upgrade cycle. Put like that its a pretty expensive lease isn't it? No residual value and no ownership.

5 upvotes

this is apples and oranges. The key question is could you use the pictures you took if you returned it? If the mfg disabled them when you returned the camera then it is close to the Adobe model. If you can't use the pictures, then no I would not be happy with that trade either.

4 upvotes

Well, these Cams are betwenn 2600 and 7000 €.
Very bad comparison.

And two points are even more important:
1. A copy of software cost nothing at all. A copy of a cam quite a lot!
2. Software can't take damage and no shutter count goes up.

4 upvotes

Well it's hardware for one thing, which wears and degrades over time, and no one is offering that. So to get a brand new top of the line camera and use it as I please for a year and then return it for another spending just $228 would be a steal. Software that doesn't wear, and that would require paying forever until the next upgrade that may not be worth the effort is another matter altogether.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting

0 upvotes

...but neither worked in the field if it happened to be the monthly internet authentication time, and the pictures you took with it could not be opened after the rental.

0 upvotes

You CAN hire a camera if you want to. Or buy it on finance. Just as you can cars. Or golf clubs.

But once you have paid in full for your camera, it's yours to keep. You can trade in for a new model if you want, or just stick with the old one you know. And if you then lose your job or run out of money for some other reason, it won't suddenly stop working. Or be taken away. And neither will you be denied access to any of the photos you might have taken with it.

So yours is a poor analogy. This Adobe thing is altogether more insidious than you make out.

2 upvotes

Well I for one would. Aside from the fact that your sums are way out (as already pointed out), I like to own the products I pay for, be it a car, house or, in this case, software.

1 upvote

A good comparison would be a model that is MORE expensive than it costs to upgrade your camera now. So, if you buy a 5D III and sell your 5D II as an 'upgrade' and you do this every three years, then it can be viewed as paying roughly $1,000 for those three years of use from the 'upgrade.' (or $2,800 for three years if you're buying new). So, assuming a $1,000 upgrade cost, that's $28 a month under the 'old' system. So if Canon matched Adobe, they'd charge you $50 a month for the 'upgrade', and you'd have to pay that forever to keep the camera. If you decided that the 5D III was good enough for you to keep for 8 years...no matter, you still have to pay $50 a month for those 8 years. If you ever wanted to 'own' the 5D III, well, sorry, you can't.

Oh, and the big stickler? Canon could take the camera back from you for ANY reason whatsoever, with no reimbursement. If you think that's crazy, look at the CC EULA...that clause is in there.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting

0 upvotes

all good points.... I'm well aware of leasing costs myself.

So if the cost of this dropped to $11 per month how much uproar would there still be?

0 upvotes

DaveBowman, you never did own the software... you were always a licensee... the subscription is just a longer term of 3-5 years. Only difference is the ET call home feature of the CC software which I think personally for me is the bigger issue.

0 upvotes

That's not even slightly ridiculous. You're comparing chili to fruit salad.

I would love to rent a 5D MkIII for $20 per month. The reality is you rent that with a 70-200mm f2.8 stabilised lens for $940 per week.

0 upvotes

okay... fine people the pricing comparison is off-I get that... I wasn't comparing costs. I was comparing the use of professional level tools, being accessible to the enthusiast/hobby market.

Photoshop has always been an industrial level professional tool. Lightroom is where photographers should be at. If you're doing things in Photoshop that requires the tools in there, then you're doing much more than a typical photographer.

0 upvotes

This price point is the bait. Once you bite it you are done. And certainly you can rent a camera, please go and do it for about a year and after that come here to tell us about the health of your checking account. Absurdity beside, you can always buy your things with the credit card: you get what you want and pay the loan, keeping your power of decision over the market. Once hooked by adobe renting system (without any competition) what do you think they will ofer you in the short term, in the long term?

0 upvotes

It's not the money that is the real issue.
It could have been 1$/month.

Focussing on the monetary problem is a Chewbacca defense.

0 upvotes

As long as Photoshop Elements is still available as a buy it and use it product that will pretty much take care of my Photoshop needs, which are average consumer/prosumer uses. I never got any of the Creative Suites because I simply couldn't afford them.

A subscription arrangement is bad all around--you never stop paying, well after you've paid what it would have cost to buy it outright, and if you're like me $50 is a tank and a half of gas or groceries for a week.

They would have been better off charging a small flat fee for Photoshop and then more for modules/add-ons/filters; letting people buy what they want and can afford.

As it is the only thing worse I can think of is metering the product so you pay by how much or often you do something with it.....I hope I just didn't give them some more bad ideas....

1 upvote

Photographers are CONTROL FREAKS!! We want to control the light, the time, the mood, the ISO, film grain...and so on. And adobe dares to take away the control from out dark-room! Want to make us pay rent for my chisel and hammer!

That's going to raise some heated discussion. As for me, I will stick to me grounded version of CS4. I am not too kin to walk in the clouds I guess.

0 upvotes

A picture is worth 1000 words. http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJ1VN-DCAAIEjRp.png:large

1 upvote

Very good

0 upvotes

Adobe is exercising its monopoly in what could be seen as illegal. There's no competition so the company clearly feels it can do what it wants. Disgraceful particularly for those who have paid a lot of money over the years for their products.

5 upvotes

Assuming that the polls as they stand at 4059, it means that Adobe has approximately .8 million dollars to lose from this forum alone. Keep pushing and maybe Adobe will take notice. However Photoshop is only a small part of the CS suite that they sell to.

I was at an industry advisory board meeting with graphic professionals, and all of them were looking forward to the new change/subscription model. We discussed how this affects photographers and we all pretty much agreed if you're using Photoshop (not Lightroom) it is a horrible deal.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting

4 upvotes

Of course this assumes that everyone that answered the poll are using Photoshop and are current licensees. With my experience of statistics, I would say there's an error of 20% and probably going to assume that only 60% of the people in the poll are actual paid licensees. That value is probably more like .4 million dollars of potential loss in this poll. How much Adobe cares about that will be the key point though.

(2 million users on CC, probably a good percentage new users, vs the 4000+ on here. Still need more reaction than that for them to respond I would say).

Comment edited 13 minutes after posting

2 upvotes

Often they use a small sample rate for political polls to get a very good idea of how the public will vote. Fact is among photographers in this poll, only about 5% think this subscription method will work for them. I will give you the standard disclaimer that this poll is subject to an error of plus or minus 2%.

0 upvotes

I disagree. I think people who don't currently own PS might like the new plan because they can start using it without a huge investment up front. I think every single one of the people unhappy with what is going on would only have any motivation to express that feeling if they owned a license. A slightly more sophisticated poll would take this into account, but pirates won't care one way or the other and people only just now getting started down the PS path are much more able to adapt than those of us who currently use it.

1 upvote

a good point Howardroark, and of the 2million users on CC, I did hear a report from them half a year ago saying most of those people were new users.

1 upvote

The question is, when those users have been paying for the next few years and someone releases a competitive product that will offer them a real license how easily will Adobe customers ditch them? I'd say very, very easily though perhaps not extremely quickly (some people will stay on board for a while as everyone gets trained up on the new software). They'll see how much they are being robbed and switch in a heartbeat. And the competing software won't even have to be all that cheap because it offers a feature that Adobe simply refuses to offer. Apple may improve their software to lure people over to their hardware and the premium won't seem terribly unreasonable compared to renting software for the rest of your life. It doesn't take very much to lure the sharks to the boat, just a little blood in the water.

0 upvotes

Not necessarily Howard.

I was going to buy CS sometime this year or next because I have the time and opportunity now to learn it properly. Will not do so now because a) I will NOT rent s/w and have it cost well over twice the cost over 5 years and nothing tangible to show for it, and b) I will NOT deal with a company that treats it's customers like this, and c) It is going to become MUCH harder to take the courses I was counting on taking as Ed. facilities drop courses.

My CS buy-in would have cost $1500 ($1200 initial + $300 for 2 updates). 5 years of CC rental would cost $3000 (plus whatever increases Adoobie applies in that time).

So, if you estimate that 2000 people here are lost revenue, at a modest average of $500 (I'm sure there are others like me), that's $1m lost, just among us at DPR. Worldwide, it will be MUCH more, I'm sure.

0 upvotes

Of the 2 million members only around 500,000 are paid, the rest are trial.
Maybe that is how to get around this, use an old version of Photoshop and the rare occasion you need to use a new feature sign up for a trial.

0 upvotes

This is an incomplete poll.

Where is the option "After I stop paying I end up with nothing, not even a useable legacy product."?

13 upvotes

That is the first option. Paying to retain access implies what happens when you stop paying....you lose access.

1 upvote

where's the Charlton Heston option?

"from my cold, dead hands!"

oh, wait, that's also the first option.

Comment edited 34 seconds after posting

0 upvotes

DP review has hit the nail on the head with their phrasing of the first options. "having to repeatedly pay to retain access" RETAIN access to past work as well as the software access, nevermind if you are creating new work... Simply accessing a previous project, picture, website, brochure, illustration etc. will cost you money.

No thanks. But when you earn your living from it, they know they have a gun against your head. While markets shift and competitors will respond Adobe is well aware of the fact that most earning professionals will have no choice. Eventually they will get a file they can't open as it was produced on an updated CC product, and they will have ha choice... Lose the income from the project or subscribe.

Comment edited 45 seconds after posting

3 upvotes

Working in print company we used to update regularly to keep opening files from customers, but now universal file format will be the rule.

1 upvote

The other real issue is that after paying for a year or two you have nothing to show for it. You don't own the product.

9 upvotes

the key point

2 upvotes

you never did own the software... you licensed it. It also doesn't stop you from saving it to an open standard like TIFF.

PSD is just a proprietary TIFF format (TIFF is also owned by Adobe).

Besides PSD can be opened by many other programs out there. You own your content still, just not Photoshop.

1 upvote

Once a time you used to pay but now get out of that appartment and leave all the Picasso, Rembrandt, Monet in it...

0 upvotes

KD - the 'you don't currently own it' is a semantic argument. Yes, you don't own the source code and have the right to resell it and modify it like you do an owned good. But you DO own the license, perpetually, and therefore it's the same as 'owning' the program in any modern way of thinking about it. Adobe can't take away CS6 from you. You just can't resell it or change it (or reverse engineer it and use the code in another product).

1 upvote

The comments on this page should be about the poll, not what was hashed over yesterday. I do not know what the right questions are for this type of poll, but I do know that I will not vote in this poll because I do not believe it is asking the right questions. Any suggestions for a poll which puts a proper perspective on the subject? Adobe may not listen, but I will.

0 upvotes

So you exercised enough thought to say these poll questions are wrong, but not enough to suggest what should replace them. Weak.

0 upvotes

We've already recommended a poll asking licensed users if they'll buy into this new scheme. This poll, however, does indeed ask the right question: if you have a problem with the CC pricing, what is it? The first option doesn't just mean you have to pay every month, it also means that you don't like having nothing when you stop paying. That seems to be the main objection. All of those issues apply to me, but the one I care about MOST is number one. We don't care if you listen, no offense. You won't even state your opinon on this admittedly gently worded question.

Comment edited 33 seconds after posting

0 upvotes

There huge amount of countries where individuals cant subscribe see:

http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/creativecloud/cc/pdfs/cc-availability-matrix.pdf

another plus for the competition!

1 upvote

I am a professional photographer of 35 years. I have been struggling over the last several years competing in this cut throat industry with shoot and burn, and unskilled amateur photographers. Therefore I don't have the volume of work I usually enjoy. When I am working on a photographic assignment, I need to have the necessary software to do the best job. When I'm not working, I don't want to have to continue to pay for software when I'm not generating income to support the ongoing monthly cost from Adobe. Also when I'm not working on an assignment, I am constantly researching and experimenting new techniques to improve image quality and test inkjet papers.

With this current Adobe pricing structure, it takes the choice away from me to upgrade to newer versions or not, and afford to continue to use a product even when business is slow or non existent.

16 upvotes

on the other hand, if by what many on these forums are saying is that they as enthusiast or 'amateurs' are being left in the dark by Adobe, then this is a win for you. Access to the software will only be available to those that can afford it and it appears to be working professionals. More work for you because that market won't be competing against you.

0 upvotes

Well I believe that was said in the interview yesterday. They expected a backlash from the Amateur community. So apparently, the enthusiasts and amateurs aren't the genre that they even worry about.

0 upvotes

DPreview - maybe you guys could make a nice comparison-review of photo software that is out there. Many of us will be looking into alternatives to Photoshop.

Thank you (in advance)

24 upvotes

Yes!

Or even if anybody here knows of such a comparison that's been performed recently?

Any suggestions as to alternatives?

0 upvotes

I stopped at CS5 because CS6 did not offer enough improvement to upgrade and the tie-in to having to have the previous version to upgrade to next was already a big enough 'insult' to a dedicated hobbyist who could rationalize the costs of a stable, well tested upgrade every 2nd or 3rd version. So i don't get ACR7, big deal, a) it took over 12 months before it could give a reasonable rendition with the X-Pro1 b) AccuRaw (for example) gives me excellent 'pre-conversion' allowing me to finish in ACR6 and i expect it to do this with any new camera for a good while yet . . .

I don't want to constantly upgrade because eventually the OS can't keep-up and then I have to change that and then upgrade everything else. When I have a stable system I want to get my value for money from this set-up for as long as possible. Of course no software company wants me to do this! The last thing they want is a saturated market . . .

6 upvotes

Well said. This is precisely why Adobe is changing the way it makes money. It could never survive by offering CS7, CS8, or CS9 in a world that is happy with CS5. Microsoft is also hard pressed to push W8 if people are happy with W7 or jump to iOS or Android.

1 upvote

I don't think Adobe cares one iota about our opinion, at least not the CEO and his pals. But I do think they care about the market, which so far has pushed Adobe stock down since the announcement. It's down more than 2% so far this morning, while the overall market is just a bit in the negative. If this trends holds, the financial media will tag on, and Adobe might well have to revert its decision because of market pressure.

We'll see.

6 upvotes

Market pressure? The CEO will be in bigger trouble unless he stems the earnings decline. Adobe's first quarter profits were down from $185m to $65m. Annualized, that's a paltry 4% return on equity. The entire Board will be fired unless they fire up revenues somehow. Better to chuck business that is not carrying its weight.

1 upvote

Right jkoch2 - who said Photoshop wasn't carrying its weight? It might have been the only product that was. Which led them to "mine" it more.
Care to guess how much marginal profit there is in software download for an upgrade to CS6? Pretty much the majority of the $199 USD. With their current strategy they will have less subscription service than they could have and no upgrade licenses than if they thought this through a bit more.

0 upvotes

I really don't understand the anger. I am a hobbyist and I could never before justify to buy software for several 100 $ . With the subscription model I can subscribe to a lot of software for just one month where I have time to create, and I can try out different kinds of applications in my creativity. I think that it is the professionals who cries out because they have paid expensive licenses before and now they are not benefitting from it any more.

0 upvotes

It's about not having the choice and being stuck with what you go for.

4 upvotes

If you sign up for "a lot" of Adobe software, then you're paying $50/month, which is $600/year. You pay that every year, for the rest of your life. Over 5 years you will have spent $3000 on Adobe software.

If you only sign up for Photoshop only ($20/month) you're still spending $1200 over that 5 years.

If you buy the DVD of CS6 right now for $600 and don't bother upgrading it for 5 years, then you never spend more than the initial $600. The rest of the money stays in your pocket. Even if you upgrade once in those 5 years ($200) you still saving money with the old system.

If you took out a loan and paid off the $600 over time, even with the interest, it still is cheaper to pay the $600 up front.

So the question is, if you're a hobbyist and can't justify spending $600 on software.... how do you justify spending twice (or more) than that on software? The fact that its a monthly payment is just hiding the fact you spending so much.

3 upvotes

Sir, You are loosing the poin here. If you rent instead of buy the software you will be trapped in a situation where you are loosed your consumer power. You'll be stacked in very vulnerable position in reference to your software suministrator. Think in the phone service, cable tv, etc. And in this case is even worst due to the Fact that there is no real competition to adobe as a hole sistem of software. Sorry for my English.

0 upvotes

This stuff bugs me AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE.
They want to force me into it!? - @£*&(!! YOU!

11 upvotes

Adobe can kiss the prosumer market goodbye.

After seeing some stock pundit's article I understand. When the economy slowed down lots of businesses put off upgrades and that put a dent in their income stream. They want to hold the business users hostage to a continuous payment. Rather have a gun to the head of business that use their software even if it costs them the prosumer market.

Looks like I'm going to start moving my workflow over to Pixelmator and maybe move to Aperture not trusting Adobe's future with Lightroom.

If I made a living 8 hours a day from Adobe's suite the price would be a bargain. However as a casual prosumer user it is a very expensive luxury.

Buh Bye Adobe

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 6 minutes after posting

16 upvotes

Adobe now says I have to pay rent to their FORCE cloud for the privilege to view any file *I* created with software that *I* own on my own computer.

Overnight I went from an Adobe fan to an Adobe demoter. Our web/design corporation will be looking for other companies to do business with unless this decision is reversed, and soooooon.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting

3 upvotes

Jeff Doubter said it best (he usually does,,,).

This is an oil-free tooling by The Man. The tooling is constant, it's horrific, and it's oil-free. We're being tooled.

Stop the tooling.

2 upvotes

It is a huge disincentive for the occasional user.

7 upvotes

Its really simple: If people no longer want to purchase the products Adobe offers, there is a huge market opportunity for a competitor. One way or another this will sort itself out.

10 upvotes

yes, but it's such fun to comment on this website... and all these "like" buttons... surely, this opportunity to state the same opinion in so many ways cannot be passed.

3 upvotes

Personally: I will stay with the version of PS I already own... no more updates (only hope LR does not go in this direction!).

Professionally: my employer will NOT pay a monthly fee for my (and my 6 coworkers) software, so I guess that means no more updates for the full CS6 bundle.

This is very sad.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting

8 upvotes

yes right we'll keep our copy of CS6 without upgrade and tell customers bring us only tif or jpg or pdf beacause readers are worldwide...

2 upvotes

There are many free/open source raw conversion software, and some of those (like DCRaw which quite a bit of stuff is based off) read the DNG format too.

2 upvotes

@FunckyPIX

Most print houses want high-res PDF flight-ready output anyway, nowadays. Sure, you can send your full INDD project but it is larger, does not included embedded fonts (must be included in the preflight run and then fully packaged), takes time to either FTP up or mail a disk as it is too large to email, and then must have manhours spent to check and convert. A PDF is simply more convenient for them now and is more commonly preferred.

0 upvotes

yes that's right we ended asking finished files, but we had a service much appreciated, to be able to correct on the fly, last minute update, many companies sent their graphist with an .indd on usb key and we corrected it with director by phone, extreme urgence a paris ; ) crazy people : )

0 upvotes

What about the laws that ensure a software company maintains and supports a software release for X amount of years? Those of us who bought CS6 with the assumption that we could upgrade to CS7 and so on every 1.5 to 2 years thought we were buying into a perpetually updatable and upgradable app system that would continue to support new cameras. Seems to me a class action lawsuit is in order here, and possibly a petition to the US AG to pursue legal avenues. Clearly CS6 has been killed as far as support and maintenance only 2 years after release. I think they have to provide a longer term of support than that.

1 upvote

what about .AI .INDD .DNG .PSD That i created from scratch and are all my intellectual property, it means no software no property of your own creations, you must pay to possess a working software to access your creations. ADOBE OWNS YOUR CREATIONS.

13 upvotes

At least in the US there aren't any laws like that. Did the software license mention perpetual upgrades (you did read it?). Did you pay for a support contract? If not, they have no obligation to provide any support other than mostly working software.

0 upvotes

update is not the problem, the big issue is STOP WORKING so that you cannot access to what you created.

5 upvotes

To me this change of focus by Adobe from private to corporate customer-friendliness is not a surprise, and I thank Adobe for the years we have had together, but now I will slowly but surely distance myself as much as I can - like Microsoft it is hard to get totally ignore Adobe, but I'll do my best!

Promise to drink a glass of good champagne the day Adobe go belly-up! To old friends, and all that. On such occasions one is supposed to remember the good days only, so that's what I'll do. Totally ignoring the rest.

5 upvotes

sweet memories when i discovered Photoshop 4 didn't even had the clue how it works...

Champagne la Companie ; ) Cheers...

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting

2 upvotes

So, how many of the cry babies here have paid $3 for a cup of coffee recently. That was really worth it. So, Photoshop is a tool that can facilitate your career, or let you practice your craft. Make a decision as to whether it is worth it. If not, then move on. Use the GIMP, or some splendid Corel product, or whatever. Make a decision. Move on.

1 upvote

Just what I did ;-)! Bye Adobe, hello brave new photo editing world!

2 upvotes

I never pay stupid money like that for coffee - Starbucks is a rip-off too. But even if I was crazy enough to shell out several bucks for a frappuccino with strawberry and foie gras foam, or whatever, and could bring myself to drink the muck, NOT buying another cup would NOT lock me out of MY CREATIVE WORK.

11 upvotes

how many times do you repay your hammer ? do you monthly pay the Pizzaiolo for the next time you'll want one ?

6 upvotes

Fine, but it does not address the issue of someone not being able to access their own creation in the future because the software stopped working.

8 upvotes

Lbr0805: Future compatibility is something "someone" should have thought of when it _chose_ to make its creations using a proprietary, closed format. That was that "someone"'s choice, and it has its consequences.

2 upvotes

The decision by Adobe directly affects people's ability to purchase/rent tools they may need. It directly affects their pocket book. As such, people are entitled to give an opinion.

But you seem to be "crying" over the fact people want to express a negative opinion. Here's a newsflash: these posts don't affect you in the slightest. So how about you take your OWN advice, sign up for a $50/month subscription, and move on?

1 upvote

John;
I don't think you understand at all. Many of us have a significant investment in Adobe. And this was undoubtedly factored in and taken advantage of by Adobe. A good many of us in this and other threads will evaluate our investment and make choices. What we are saying to Adobe and to you as well is "we don't like being taken advantage of." To you personally you exhibit as much empathy as Adobe has. Do you work for Adobe?

0 upvotes

Moving on............................

0 upvotes

Lbr0805: Don't be clueless. There is nothing stopping you from accessing your own creation in the future. Please educate yourself about the changes.

0 upvotes

Photohawk: I understand perfectly. I do not work for Adobe. I am a realist. Empathy? Why? Evaluate. Make a decision. Move on.

0 upvotes

I don't mind paying for good software. I would say that Adobe Photoshop is the most powerful yet reasonably priced software ever made. I would also guess that most professionals (journalists, photographers, editors, etc.) who already pay for Photoshop will at least be less affected by the changes.

It's the casual users that buy/upgrade Photoshop once every few years and use it several times a week for personal, hobby, and super-small-business work who are going to suffer. Indeed, it's almost a punishment to those of us who have actually paid for what is considered to be one of the most pirated pieces of software in history.

Pirating sucks. I'll never use a hacked up copy of Photoshop. But I know I won't be able to afford it either. So, after all the fun and enjoyment they have given me over the years, all I can say is: *&^% you Adobe. May your greed be your ruin.

Comment edited 59 seconds after posting

17 upvotes

Perfectly put, sir! Good software, rotten customer relations! Those who earn a lot can afford any kind of pay fees, while I am nowadays just an amateur.

5 upvotes

It will be Adobe Pirates stealing your money from now on. But I'm sure there will be alternatives soon for so called ''amateurs'' who do not use photography softwares everyday to make money from it. I'd say good luck to Adobe. If the subscription system doesn't work it'll be a very interesting corporate talk and maneuvers about ''re-structuring business'' claiming to cater for the customer needs.

2 upvotes

at the time when Quark Xpress was the King of the hill, it fell down because of too many problems like dongle working once a day, license stopping when you need it...in a print company it was such a pain in the ... that we went to indesign, Now adobe is making the same mistake

4 upvotes

Well said and I totally agree!!! I'm a legally licensed PS CS5 user and now Adobe tells me to move to CC or go away.

Comment edited 20 seconds after posting

0 upvotes

The problem is, even if they do an about face, we all know that the change is inevitable, and they will continue to hammer the subscription model.

If they do an about face, and sell CS7/8 in the Box/Download model, then the Cloud people will have a fit.

0 upvotes

Now Photographers, we should follow Adobe and start renting out the photos, wedding photos and etc, as long as the client pay for monthly fee, they can see their photos. Starting from today, they can't buy the photo, they only can rent it. If they stop paying the monthly fee, we will take the photos back.

WE ARE STARTING THE SERVICES BUSINESS. How good is it? :-)

8 upvotes

The obvious problem with this idea is that your clients would simply go to another photographer. Photographers, even "pretty good" photographers, are a dime-a-dozen these days. Competition is off the charts.

Last time I checked, GIMP was still in like 17th place behind PS and it's really the only other runner in the race.

2 upvotes

Corel's offerings are OK, Aperture better (you just need a Mac)! Sometimes there is free downloads of Phocus, a capable RAW editing program from Hasselblads.

2 upvotes

Aperture didn't have major update for 3 years, the rumor Aperture 4 or X should be here this year. Or Apple simple kill it. I am on Mac with 2 Macbook Pro(13" & 15" Retina) and a iMac with 20 Terabyte Storage on FreeNAS box.

0 upvotes

If you release your photos on subscription make sure they don't have any Adobe file extension ;-)

4 upvotes

automatic deletion of all the flyers, invitations, pictures, logos, posters i created if they don't pay me monthly dude i'm RICH ! ! !

1 upvote

I work for a company that has a VERY limited exposure to the internet due to the organization listed in the Mandiant APT report http://intelreport.mandiant.com/
How does joining the cloud with subscription based software we can't access help my company? Altium lost ~25% of it's customers in one version by going to the "cloud". Funnily enough they now provide disks for every upgrade and a copy of their vast component database which they never did before. Cloud based economics for this company now costing more per user to them then it did in the past. Adobe forget that most major corporations around the world have a thing called a firewall with limited exposure to the internet. Looks like they are not only dishing the personal client but also the large corporates who can afford it! Good job adobe, hope this plays out well for you.

0 upvotes

1) Is there any evidence software companies are losing money based on selling software packages (the old model)...? If so, please post it.

2) One could argue that Adobe will no longer continue to innovate under the subscription model. Why would they? They would have a truly captive audience. No pressure to innovate.

Selling Photoshop is not like selling Office. Really two very different pieces of software and different customer base. Unless the corporate world is using Photoshop more than I think?

3) What happens to quality control and beta testing under this new model?

Some are arguing that Adobe only cares about the 20% and are abandoning the hobbyists, enthusiasts and perhaps even some of the pro photographers.
Perhaps this is true...?!?

If so, even more reason to vote with your dollars.
Put it to the test.

1 upvote

In retrospect it is interesting to see this interview again;

http://live.wsj.com/video/adobe-and-apple-ceos-square-off/5C074A32-B7A3-47EC-9B53-E7A8A5A04E49.html#!5C074A32-B7A3-47EC-9B53-E7A8A5A04E49

We all know what happened to Flash in the end in favor of superior technology so maybe this CEO will turn back on the path he set on with Creative Cloud as well ! Maybe there is hope.

I have seldom encountered a public figure this arrogant and stuck in his personal beliefs.

0 upvotes

Nothing worries me. If it's worth it, I'll buy. If not, I won't.

0 upvotes

you can´t buy it genius.. you can only rent it....

16 upvotes

Excellent point - less reason to innovate

2 upvotes

Mike, maybe he didn't get the memo because his email subscription ran out?

2 upvotes

I feel CC doesn't offer one the control that you have when you buy ...I don't like to lose control.

4 upvotes

Just a quick note regarding CS6 Upgrades. It is still possible to purchase upgrades on the Adobe site. You must click on "Buy" and then select upgrade.

MB

0 upvotes

Adobe wanna be like Xerox but it's printing machine leasing, toner, technicians, recycling bottles, toner... not a software which eats every margin i do, if i have no job for a while i keep paying all my charges AND THAT SOFTWARE I DIDN'T USE for a while i must fond many more to absorb the monthly cost. I BUY IT IT'S MINE UPDATED OR NOT, IT DOESN'T STOP WORKING ! ! ! DENIAL OF SERVICE BUSINESS

3 upvotes

Adobe customer service is so poor it prompted me to quit using a DSLR and move to an iPhone and apps like Snapseed and VSCO. No more Adobe products for me.

0 upvotes


Dpreview Users' Poll: Best Camera of 2012? Dec 21, 2012	Photoshop CC: Adobe responds to reaction May 8, 2013	Adobe heralds subscription-only future for Photoshop and Creative Suite May 6, 2013	Adobe updates Creative Cloud with exclusive tools for Photoshop CC May 6, 2013

	Samsung NX2000 May 1, 2013
	Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX50V Apr 24, 2013
	Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 Apr 24, 2013
	Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Apr 24, 2013
	Ricoh GR Apr 17, 2013
	Samsung NX1100 Apr 11, 2013
	Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF6 Apr 9, 2013
	Fujifilm FinePix S8400W Mar 22, 2013
	Fujifilm FinePix XP200 Mar 22, 2013
	Canon EOS 100D (EOS Rebel SL1) Mar 21, 2013
	Canon EOS 700D (EOS Rebel T5i) Mar 21, 2013
	Canon PowerShot SX270 HS Mar 21, 2013
	Canon PowerShot SX280 HS Mar 21, 2013

Poll: who plans to pay for Adobe cloud software ?	150
Adobe Goes All-In on Subscription Pricing - ...	139
Recommended Photoshop Alternatives?	95
Adobe is WRONG!	85
Are we fooling ourselves?	68
Not completely satisfied with my X100S	56
Sold my RX100 - this is why	52
Lenses, sharpness, and image quality	49
All this Adobe flaming	49
From first effort at street.	49
M43 and DOF with a fast lens	44
24mp sensor for m43? 3.2micron pixel pitch!	43
When I increase the aperture my screen goes ...	42
Nikon 1 lens road map...anyone?	37
Anybody out there who does not use Photoshop ...	37
Primes vs Zooms	37
Alternative to Adobe software	35
A99 Short Film "Survival of the Fittest" Hi-ISO	32
Tempted by the price of the SAMYANG 14mm f2.8 ...	31
Nikor 24-120 F4	28

Poll: What concerns you most about Adobe's move to subscription software?

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