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41MP Nokia 808 smartphone hints at pixel-combining future for small sensor cameras

By dpreview staff on Feb 27, 2012 at 20:56 GMT

Nokia has made the startling announcement that it has created a 41MP smartphone, the Nokia 808 PureView. Interestingly, in most shooting modes the camera will output 3, 5MP or 8MP stills, rather than offering its full resolution - promising greater quality and offering some clever features. And this isn't a trade-show concept model, this is a product that will be offered to the public, though details of when and in which countries haven't been announced. What's interesting isn't so much the pixel count as how it's used, so we took a closer look.

The first thing to realize is that this isn't a standard 1/3.2" mobile phone sensor, it's an unusual and remarkably large 1/1.2" type (five times larger). In fact, it's almost three times the size of the sensors in most compact cameras. As a result, its photosites are the same size as those in most 8.2MP cameraphone but the 808 doesn't try to create an image of the same quality, 5 times bigger. Instead it oversamples the image and then combines pixels (using proprietary algorithms Nokia says optimize detail retention) down to a smaller size (though there is a special 'creative' shooting mode if you want the full resolution - 38MP at 4:3 aspect ratio, 36MP at 16:9).

Diagram showing the size of the Nokia 808 PureView's 1/1.2" sensor in comparison to those used in various compact cameras and mobile phones. A Four Thirds sensor is included for scale.

This pixel-combination means that noise (which occurs randomly) is averaged-out across multiple pixels (around 7-to-1 in the 5MP mode). The high native pixel count also means that it's possible to effectively 'zoom' by cropping into the center of the image and reducing the number of pixels you average together. Consequently the 808 can offer a roughly 2.8x 'zoom,' while maintaining 5MP output, despite having a fixed lens. The image quality will drop (since the noise is no longer being averaged out), but it does mean you get a roughly 28-78mm equivalent zoom, without the need to have moving lens elements, making the process fast and silent. It also means the lens' 15cm minimum focusing distance is maintained.

And, although the benefits of pixel-binning are lost as you magnify-in, because its photosites are the same size as contemporary 8MP phones, the resulting 5MP should offer the same pixel-level quality even at full magnification.

The same process allows 1080p video to be shot with a 4x cropping zoom.

Much like the Panasonic LX and GH cameras, the Nokia 808 uses an over-sized sensor to maximize the area used to offer different aspect-ratio images.

Despite the large sensor and comparatively large f/2.4 aperture, you won't get much control over depth of field (it'll be equivalent to setting an APS-C DSLR's kit lens to 18mm f/5.6). The depth-of-field control is reduced still further when magnified-in, because it doesn't gain the shallower depth of field that longer physical focal lengths usually bring. So, while it's an improvement over most phones, we wouldn't put much faith in the Nokia white paper's talk of bokeh.

The interesting thing for us, though, is not the Panasonic-esque multi-aspect-ratio use of the sensor, nor the astonishing pixel count, it's the idea of using that high pixel count to offer lower noise or non-interpolated digital zooming, while maintaining a constant image size. As Nokia's blog points out:

'5Mpix-6Mpix is more than enough for viewing images on PC, TV, online or smartphones. After all, how often do we print images bigger than even A4? [It] isn’t about shooting pictures the size of billboards! Instead, it’s about creating amazing pictures at normal, manageable sizes.'

And that's something that might be interesting to see in future compact cameras - models that will concentrate on output of a sensible size so that the user can easily get the benefit of them oversampling the scene.

Click here to read Nokia's blog post about the 808 PureView, which includes more detail about the phone's other features.

And click here to read the company's white-paper on the technology underpinning it.

Nokia 808 PureView lens and sensor specifications

  • Carl Zeiss Optics
  • Focal length: 8.02mm
  • 35mm equivalent focal length: 26mm, 16:9 | 28mm, 4:3
  • F-number: f/2.4
  • Focus range: 15cm – Infinity (throughout the zoom range)
  • Construction:
    • 5 elements, 1 group. All lens surfaces are aspherical
    • One high-index, low-dispersion glass mould lens
    • Mechanical shutter with neutral density filter
  • Optical format: 1/1.2”
  • Total number of pixels: 7728 x 5368
  • Pixel Size: 1.4um

Nokia's sample images:

ISO 800 - 5.0MP, 4:3
ISO 114 - 5.3MP, 16:9
ISO 58 - 38.4MP, 4:3 note the extremely close focus distance required to offer such shallow depth-of-field
18
I own it
4
I want it
1
I had it
Discuss in the forums

Comments

Total comments: 667
2345
t_ramoska
By t_ramoska (Feb 27, 2012)

Now will be no reason to complain about Nikon D800 to big resolution lol.

1 upvote
Stephen123
By Stephen123 (Feb 27, 2012)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nokiaofficial/6788333052/sizes/o/in/photostream/
This looks like it really is a 41MP camera to me. The pixel binning may just be a marketing decision based on file size and what consumers generally use a camera for.

0 upvotes
pagoda
By pagoda (Feb 27, 2012)

We done, Nokia. We all trust you could provide a professional stuff to us. Go on.

2 upvotes
dylanbarnhart
By dylanbarnhart (Feb 27, 2012)

There's no new technology here, other than the fact that the phone allows the user to select different tradeoffs. You'll have to select whether you want full 41MP, or oversampling, or good low light quality, or zoom. You can get only one of them not all of them. For example, when you start to zoom, you'll lose the resolution, or oversampling, or low light quality.

And then there are other important qualities, like dynamic range, which oversampling doesn't help.

In most daily scenarios, a real camera like the LX5 will do better, even though its sensor is smaller. You can zoom, and raise the ISO, and still has the same resolution as when you don't.

The greatest achievement here is the huge sensor size in a relatively small package. Kudos Nokia for that.

0 upvotes
BJL
By BJL (Feb 28, 2012)

Down sampling does give "super pixels" of greater SNR and thus better DR, roughly the same as if you had the same number of bigger photosites on the sensor to start with. So for shadow noise, DR and such, the important number here is the sensor size: 1/1.2", bigger than most high end compacts and almost as big as in the Nikon One system.

0 upvotes
dylanbarnhart
By dylanbarnhart (Feb 28, 2012)

Actually down sampling doesn't increase dynamic range. When you blow out the sky for example, binning 100 white pixels together still gets you a white pixel. You won't get blue sky.

This phone actually does more than normal down sampling or binning. It does "oversampling", which is better for color accuracy, but still doesn't help dynamic range.

0 upvotes
zigi_S
By zigi_S (Feb 28, 2012)

>Actually down sampling doesn't increase dynamic range.

But smaller pixels get full slower than bigger pixels, because of the smaller operating area.

1 upvote
vlad0
By vlad0 (Feb 27, 2012)

Point is, more and more people find their mobile phones to be "sufficient enough" for taking everyday photos, which is where P&S come to mind right.. well, this 808 just brought that "sufficient enough" deal to e new level.

1 upvote
AmaturFotografer
By AmaturFotografer (Feb 28, 2012)

41mp is surely more than sufficient.

0 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (Feb 27, 2012)

The demise of compacts is greatly exaggerated.

My compact goes from 24-105mm equivalent at 12MP. You'd need 230MP at 24mm to crop to 105mm and retain 12MP.

I'm considering buying a Canon 260HS. That's 25-500mm equivalent at 12MP. You'd need 4,800MP (4.8GP) at 25mm to retain 12MP at 500mm.

Worse, let's look at aperture on the 260HS. 4.5mm-90mm f/3.5-f/6.8. That's an aperture of 1.3mm - 13.2mm. The new Nokia is 8mm f/2.4 for an aperture of only 3.3mm. So, to match the 13.2mm maximum aperture of the 260HS, the Nokia's lens would need 4 times the aperture, and that would give it an f-stop of f/0.6 - not practical.

So, it's 41MP, 8mm and f/2.4 whereas it would need 4,800MP, 8mm and f/0.6. Even versus a modest 4.4x-optical zoom compact it would need to go from 41mp up to 230MP and keep the same aperture while retaining enough sharpness to use those ultra-tiny pixels effectively. Again, not practical.

Don't underestimate the power of optical zoom. Cropping has a long way to go.

0 upvotes
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 27, 2012)

Your calculation is just simply wrong. Aperture stays the same as the exposure is same regardless of how much you zoom in within the same image. So 808 has a fixed aperture of f2.4 across every photo it takes regardless of how much you zoom in or out in terms of exposure.

3 upvotes
costinul_ala
By costinul_ala (Feb 27, 2012)

True, no need to demise compacts. Amazing technology though ... A big leap for camera phones. Nokia really delivered this time

1 upvote
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (Feb 27, 2012)

"So 808 has a fixed aperture of f2.4 across every photo it takes regardless of how much you zoom in or out in terms of exposure."

Right - a fixed aperture of only 3.3mm, as I said. That's not as much as 13.2mm as is possible with the 260HS at its long end.

0 upvotes
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 27, 2012)

I think you are confusing yourself and others here by using the word "aperture" wrongly.

Also, Nokia never mentioned that this 41MP sensor can provide 20x loss-less zoom at 8MP let alone a 3MP image. In fact, it can only provide loss-less zoom up to 3x at 3MP with a fixed aperture of f2.4. This is still better than any mobile phone out there of course but yes, it still can't compete with higher end compact digital cameras due to lack of optical zoom at longer focal lengths. But if they did add a decent 3x optical zoom, this "phone" would have been bigger than the LX5 due to requiring a far larger lens thanks to its huge sensor. (Heck, it's nearly Nikon 1 territory!)

2 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (Feb 28, 2012)

f-stop = focal length / aperture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture#In_photography

"The lens aperture is usually specified as an f-number, the ratio of focal length to effective aperture diameter."

0 upvotes
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 28, 2012)

Okay. I now see why you are getting confused. Please read that wiki again carefully.

Aperture of lens used in 808 is f2.4. That is the f-number (=aperture) that was derived from the focal length and the diameter of the "hole". (which the wiki states as the aperture diameter)

Where in the wiki or anywhere else that says that the f-stop (which is the aperture) is the focal length divided by aperture?

0 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm not confused at all.

f-stop does not equal aperture. f-stop is aperture ratio (ratio of focal length to aperture). Many people might shorten that to "aperture", but it's just a contraction.

The Wiki article says that right in the sentence I quoted, "ratio of focal length to effective aperture diameter". f-stop = focal length / effective aperture diameter (usually called "aperture"for short).

Lenses are usually specified by f-stop, but telescopes are usually specified by aperture. A 120mm telescope has an aperture of 120mm. Focal length and f-stop are usually mentioned in the finer print. This is because aperture is what matters most for image quality (light gathering and diffraction go with aperture).

0 upvotes
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 28, 2012)

Umm. I still believe you are confused.

Aperture diameter = the diameter of the aperture measured by a ruler in mm. So, Aperture (as you call f-stop value) = focal length / aperture diameter. (where aperture diameter does NOT equal f2.4 that you used to calculate your numbers)

If you go by your formula for this 808 phone:
f stop = 8.02 / 2.4
f stop = 3.34 (huh???? You see where I'm getting at?)

Heck, for kicks, I got my 50mm 1.8 DSLR lens out..
1. 1.8 = 50 / aperture diameter
2. aperture diameter = 50 / 1.8 (simple algebra re-arrangement)
3. aperture diameter = 27.777mm

Now I measured my aperture "diameter" of the back element of my 50 1.8 lens with my ruler and it's about 26mm. (element is a little hidden on the sides) So this is correct.

Anyways, have a read of it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-number

"The f-number is given by f/D where f is the focal length, and D is the diameter of the entrance pupil." This statement should hopefully be less confusing....

0 upvotes
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 28, 2012)

Okay. I think I know where you are getting at. Phew. =)

You are basically saying aperture in your sentence is actually "aperture diameter" and saying that the lens element is tiny. But you are forgetting about one important factor here.

You need to take into account the sensor size here and correctly convert the lens focal length into a 35mm equivalent so that it is comparable at the same ratio. As lenses from the 2 devices do not create the same image area at the same focal length.

I guess that's where you and I were getting out of line and ultimately your calculation being out of wack.

Canon SX 260 HS = 25-500mm f3.5-6.8 (35mm equiv)
Nokia 808 phone = 26mm f2.4 (35mm equiv at 16:9)

so....

Canon260 @ 25mm = 7.1 aperture diameter (35mm equiv)
Nokia808 @ 26mm = 10.8 aperture diameter (35mm equiv)

So at the wide end, 808 as expected has a bigger aperture diameter.
No point calculating the long end as 808 doesn't do 20x zoom anyways.

0 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (Feb 28, 2012)

No, you're still lost.

There's no 35mm-equivalent aperture. There's 35mm-equivalent f-stop and focal length, but not aperture. Aperture is aperture.

I calculated it using the actual lens focal lengths (4.5mm - 90mm for the SX260 and 8mm for the Nokia) so I calculated it correctly.

Aperture is what matters because that's what limits light collection and that's what creates diffraction. The Nokia has a small aperture (3.3mm) while many compacts have a larger aperture, or at least a variable aperture.

When you crop, you don't change aperture. When you change focal length, you do (a so-called constant aperture lens is really a constant f-stop lens - aperture changes).

Bottom line - optical zoom can and does, in most cases, have an advantage over cropping, both because of pixel count and because of aperture.

0 upvotes
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 28, 2012)

Okay, I do get your point and yes, the 35mm equiv calculation doesn't really matter as the aperture diameter is what it is. But it does matter to compare the same equiv field-of-view focal length. (as what's the point of comparing a wide angle focal length to another camera's telephoto focal length?)

So... Nokia has a larger aperture than pretty much all compact digital cameras at its 28mm equiv focal length including the Canon S100/G12. (Canon S100 with a 6mm 2.0 lens at wide has a aperture diameter of 3mm at the same 28mm equiv focal length)

As you calculated on your first post, Nokia has a 3.3 mm aperture diameter while the Canon 260HS has a 1.3mm diameter at the same equiv focal length.

I do get your point that this oversampling technique of Nokia will require a VERY high MP value to match the 20x Optical zoom of the Canon. But Nokia only ever mentioned having around 3x optical zoom equivalent at 5MP anyways.

Also, don't forget that this is a "mobile phone". =)

0 upvotes
Snaaks
By Snaaks (Feb 27, 2012)

Very interesting technology/approach. Can't wait to see some real sample pics from a review.

Comment edited 15 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
vlad0
By vlad0 (Feb 27, 2012)

Symbian is the only OS out there that can support that kind of tech, for now. It shows it's modular nature, and that is why this phone can produce this on a single core arm 11 CPU. They аrе offloading the processing to e DSP, and then it goes to the main imaging processor for further processing. The CPU has very little to do with the whole process. When you add the mechanical shutter, and the xenon flash.. well, neither Android, iOS, or Windows Phone can handle the synchronization required to pull this off.

All the information is in here:

http://europe.nokia.com/PRODUCT_METADATA_0/Products/Phones/8000-series/808/Nokia808PureView_Whitepaper.pdf

Symbian, is good stuff. With their latest Belle integration of the UX, its a pleasure to use. Try it.. before you complain.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 6 minutes after posting
12 upvotes
pagoda
By pagoda (Feb 27, 2012)

It is always true that Nokia is making a real phone with a high quality rather than a hand computer.

0 upvotes
ajck
By ajck (Feb 28, 2012)

Fully agree. Anyone who complains about Symbian has clearly not used Belle. If they have then their bias is coming out in preference for other systems (fair enough, but lets all be honest eh?).

Belle is EASILY as good as iPhone or Android, just slightly different.

3 upvotes
wutsurstyle
By wutsurstyle (Feb 28, 2012)

thanks for the info, vlad0

0 upvotes
Kitamura
By Kitamura (Feb 27, 2012)

I'd like a phone with a f/1.2 20mm bokehlicious lens. Phone-makers: make it happen...now! GO!

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 49 seconds after posting
1 upvote
Kwai
By Kwai (Feb 27, 2012)

Uh oh, just when it looked like companies had fixed at around 10MP for a compact, someone has found an excuse to put a bigger number in front of their product...

1 upvote
duartix
By duartix (Feb 27, 2012)

I...see...dead...pixels.......

1 upvote
t_ramoska
By t_ramoska (Feb 27, 2012)

on your screen lol...

1 upvote
duartix
By duartix (Feb 28, 2012)

Is it? They must be ghost pixels then, because they move when I scroll the image.
Seriously, they are easy to find on the climbing picture (top left). What puzzles me is how can there be dead pixels, not because it's 41MP (it's bound to happen), but because there's so much binning going on.
It just shouldn't happen...
BTW they're not dead, they are "stuck" on white...I just had to make the joke!

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
0 upvotes
gordon lafleur
By gordon lafleur (Feb 28, 2012)

Amazing, why is this sensor and technology not available in a camera?
I don't own a smartphone, but have been tempted to get an iphone just for the convenience of the camera, but I will hold off now.

And what a delightful change to have decent sample photos clearly taken by a proffesional instead of the crap we see from the likes of Fuji. (and I'm a x100 owner)

0 upvotes
Deeso
By Deeso (Feb 27, 2012)

P&S manufacturers better be upgrading to 1 inch sensors or more or they will be dead for good in a couple years time frame. Just like portable media players, videocameras and PDA's got engulfed by smartphones. Perhaps pure cameras will always have the edge, but phones are quickly getting "good enough" for everything.

0 upvotes
webfrasse
By webfrasse (Feb 27, 2012)

1 inch sensor? That won't be a P&S anymore. The physics of that big sensor and the lens it needs makes it way to be to be a P&S

0 upvotes
Richard Butler
By Richard Butler (Feb 27, 2012)

I suspect what you mean is it won't be a compact camera anymore (point-and-shoot doesn't imply anything about size).

Canon's G1 X manages to fit a 1.5" sensor into a body not much bigger than the (admittedly already sizable) G12, so it's not impossible, just challenging.

4 upvotes
KieranGee
By KieranGee (Feb 27, 2012)

I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Butler. You can use a 5D MkII like a point and shoot camera if you so wish (it does have an automatic mode after all), and that ain't exactly tiny

0 upvotes
ismith
By ismith (Feb 27, 2012)

Though lots of 'techies' might trounce the operating system as a good enough reason not to buy this 'phone' - I, however, do not 'need' to be connected with the masses on Android or iOS, and see this as a viable replacement to my pocket camera and phone in one neat package. Well done Nokia!

My only gripe would be on how to protect the lens from scuffing and fingerprints? It's quite exposed out there on that bulge.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
5 upvotes
Xpress_Shutter
By Xpress_Shutter (Feb 27, 2012)

There will be a protective case with a detachable plate for the camera.

http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/carrying-cases-and-style/covers/nokia-hard-cover-cc-3046-for-nokia-808-pureview?

2 upvotes
Mandeno Moments
By Mandeno Moments (Feb 27, 2012)

It's good that Nokia is thinking outside the box and the sensor size is stunning, but what about the dynamic range of a 1.4 micron pixel? If they kept the sensor size and put 10 megapixels on it the pixel size would be ~5.6 microns, which is the same size as those found in the Nikon D300s and Fuji X100. This would give a much greater dynamic range, albeit the price would be the loss of the digital zoom. Digital zoom with noise is little gain for me.

I speak as a photographer. Happy-snappers will probably love Nokia's approach if it's simple to operate.

The Nokia post shows a bare lens, and all the technology in the world is useless if the lens is covered in fingerprints and scratches. If I'm buying a high end photography-focused phone I want a sliding lens cover, with the option of cover-opening switching the phone to camera mode.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
4 upvotes
NetMage
By NetMage (Feb 27, 2012)

Smaller pixels don't reduce DR versus larger pixels, because smaller pixels collect less light proportionally.

It doesn't work that way.

So much for the too many MP argument - more MP = better images...

1 upvote
Steen Bay
By Steen Bay (Feb 27, 2012)

If you want big 5.6 micron pixels with low noise and high DR, then you just have to downsample the 38mp image to 2.4mp.

0 upvotes
jeans
By jeans (Feb 28, 2012)

I believe we forget about signal/noise ratio that gets worse with smaller pixels. Also, modern phones are probably to weak to process the images in 12-24bit.

BTW, I'm not trying to diminish the achievement - I'm duly impressed with the sample images!

0 upvotes
Rage Joe
By Rage Joe (Feb 28, 2012)

Not necessarily, if the oversampling is done wisely, it's the total area of the light gahthering what counts how much light you get on the sensor ;).. to turn into some meaningful information besides noise, though, looking at some of my pictures noise could have been better.

1 upvote
Jon Rty
By Jon Rty (Feb 28, 2012)

They offer a case that protect the lens for it:

http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/carrying-cases-and-style/covers/nokia-hard-cover-cc-3046-for-nokia-808-pureview?

0 upvotes
epdm2be
By epdm2be (Feb 29, 2012)

Don't forget that all this tech have to be affordable too. This product must compete with the other high-end smartphones and I reckon about 600 euro's is the max. for most punters. Which is about the price of a Nikon D5100 body. And then you still need some glass.

0 upvotes
sgoldswo
By sgoldswo (Feb 27, 2012)

This actually looks like an interesting piece of technology, though I would like to see more than the example shots. The iPhone 4S camera is fine for snaps, but IQ degrades very quickly in bright or dim light

0 upvotes
Michael Ma
By Michael Ma (Feb 27, 2012)

Hopefully Nokia is in the sensor licensing business. As much as I would like this on my phone, I would never give enough weight to a camera on a smartphone that I would buy a untested smartphone line over a Galaxy or an iPhone.

I also wonder if phones would ever start having bounce flash. Just cover the rim with the brightest LED or small strobes. Imagine the images that we can capture with that thing.

0 upvotes
Ashley Pomeroy
By Ashley Pomeroy (Feb 27, 2012)

That looks really good - it's grainy at ISO 800 but it's a nice grain, and the colours are still nice. Most other cameraphones would have blotchy purple streaks at that value. Imagine this kind of sensor scaled up!

1 upvote
Ashley Pomeroy
By Ashley Pomeroy (Feb 27, 2012)

I have to apologise for using the word "nice" too often. Replace that sentence with "it's a good, honest, working man's grain, and the colours are pleasing to the eye".

4 upvotes
Najinsky
By Najinsky (Feb 27, 2012)

Nice recovery

2 upvotes
Jen Yates
By Jen Yates (Feb 27, 2012)

Nice complement

0 upvotes
KieranGee
By KieranGee (Feb 27, 2012)

"it's a good, honest, working man's grain, and the colours are pleasing to the eye" I'm going to remember that and use it next time someone tells me my high ISO shots look a little grainy.

1 upvote
Rachotilko
By Rachotilko (Feb 27, 2012)

Revolution ? Hardly !

Cropping is NOT the same think as telephoto. With telephoto lens you change the perspective of the scene, somethink you won't get with cropping. Also, with good telephoto lens you don't lose the quality. With cropping you do.

What makes it look so good ? The sensor size. Why is this sensor size (1/1.2" or just 1") not utilized in majority of P&S instead of the ridiculous 1/2.3 or 1/1.7 ?

Comment edited 29 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (Feb 27, 2012)

Changing focal length doesn't change perspective. See this site's glossary about exactly that myth.

The only way to change perspective is to change your position relative to your targets.

11 upvotes
Kwai
By Kwai (Feb 27, 2012)

The larger the sensor, the longer the lens needs to be for the same field of view. So they get away with a relatively large sensor by having a wide angle lens - but they wouldn't be able to fit a tele lens in. Somehow I doubt the lens will be high enough quality to make the zoomed picture worthwhile.

0 upvotes
Rachotilko
By Rachotilko (Feb 27, 2012)

@ljfinger:
How would you name this phenomenon ? You cannot get this result by cropping !

http://img.ephoto.sk/images/content/old/Image/fotoskola/2010/fotoskolka/objektivy_III/i_10.jpg
http://img.ephoto.sk/images/content/old/Image/fotoskola/2010/fotoskolka/objektivy_III/i_12.jpg
http://img.ephoto.sk/images/content/old/Image/fotoskola/2010/fotoskolka/objektivy_III/i_35.jpg
http://img.ephoto.sk/images/content/old/Image/fotoskola/2010/fotoskolka/objektivy_III/i_80.jpg
http://img.ephoto.sk/images/content/old/Image/fotoskola/2010/fotoskolka/objektivy_III/i_200.jpg
http://img.ephoto.sk/images/content/old/Image/fotoskola/2010/fotoskolka/objektivy_III/i_400.jpg

Comment edited 58 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Joesiv
By Joesiv (Feb 27, 2012)

That's becuase you moved your feet, like ljfinger mentioned, you changed perspective.

How about this, walk back to where you were with your 400mm lens, and take a picture with your 10mm lens instead, then crop down to where the 400mm was framed. You probably won't have much pixels left, but what you'll find is, if your aperture was the same on the two, the same image. One just has less pixels. If you had started with 41MP, or more, you'd end up with a nice web friendly sized image.

0 upvotes
Lee Jay
By Lee Jay (Feb 28, 2012)

"How would you name this phenomenon ? You cannot get this result by cropping !"

Can't get it by changing focal length either.

"That's becuase you moved your feet, like ljfinger mentioned, you changed perspective. "

Bingo.

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Optical/Perspective_01.htm

0 upvotes
epdm2be
By epdm2be (Feb 29, 2012)

@ ljfinger: Interesting page that clearly explains the phenomenon that Rachotilko wanted to show.

It does show that Nokia's idea of optaining crop as a substitude for a zoom-lens is right on target! I really want to get my paws on this thing. If the street price can be about less than 500 euro's then I'm definitly gonna get one.

I just hope they can get the dead pixel-issue under control. Becaus i wouldn't want to have a 500/600 euro device with dead-pixels on the imager.

0 upvotes
Dvlee
By Dvlee (Feb 27, 2012)

I'd like to see a comparison between the lower resolution "pixel binned" image and the full resolution file cleaned up with a dedicated noise reduction software or plugin. I've been getting great results with Topaz Denoise.

If a program like Denoise can clean up the image enough , I'd rather opt for the higher pixel count and fix the noise in post.

0 upvotes
Barretlight
By Barretlight (Feb 27, 2012)

MORE SAMPLES here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nokiaofficial/sets/72157629100338650/with/6790012312/

seriously now... instead of buying a premium pocket cam like lx5 or s100 maybe I am thinking of buying this as my main phone

The only bad thing is that they Fkd up the screen resolution. 640x360 in 4" is low resolution for todays standars in smartphones. They could have kept the screensize smaller to keep the display sharper and the phone more compact.

For God's sake its 2012 give it at least a WVGA resolution. Symbian has the same resolution since ages!!!

1 upvote
Jon Rty
By Jon Rty (Feb 28, 2012)

The resolution is there due to app compability.

0 upvotes
Barretlight
By Barretlight (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes but still older applications ccould run at the larger Res screen and take less screen space (or upscale to fit in full screen). IT has been done before and can happen again.

If they dont plan on abandoning symbina soon they should up the resolution it supports. There are no longer excuses. A modern phone needs a modern OS.

0 upvotes
epdm2be
By epdm2be (Feb 29, 2012)

@ Barretlight: just use your logic, man. Symbian is limited to 640x360 or 640x480 (Nokia E6) resolution and single core cpu's. WP7.x has similar restrictions albeit one notch up from symbian (800x480 max) and also single core Qualcom cpu's. This is the reason why Elop doesn't want to put much efford into Symbian. Rewriting a kernel and separating the HAL, rewriting the display system and cpu-handler without breaking software compatibility just can't be done in a few months.

However since it's the only and most mature OS that Nokia has inhouse that they could modify to handle this camera-module, they used it in this phone. It should be obvious that Nokia is dependant on Microsoft regarding WP7.x-hardware support and hence can't tamper with it to botch in this camera.

Don;t forget Nokia has a license to USE WP7 not the source code to modify it.

0 upvotes
commiebiker
By commiebiker (Feb 27, 2012)

yep, say goodbye to compact P&S cameras...the future has arrived

13 upvotes
Dvlee
By Dvlee (Feb 27, 2012)

While hanging out in the local camera store, I was looking at the cameras that can connect to the internet and post a photo directly to facebook or send it as an mail. We joked that they should make a camera that can be used as a phone and surf the web.

It's clear that the technology in cell phones and P&Ss are on a collision course and that someday soon be indistinguishable from one another.

It's not so much that point and shoots will disappear, but rather camera stores will have to sell cell phones and phone salepeople will have to learn more about photography!

4 upvotes
ajck
By ajck (Feb 28, 2012)

> "It's clear that the technology in cell phones and P&Ss are on a collision course and that someday soon be indistinguishable from one another."

Huh? I would humbly suggest that all the owners of Nokia's current camera legend the N8 have been experiencing this for a couple of years. Many tests by many different experts have shown clearly that the N8 is not only considerably better than any other phone camera in the world, but also better than many compact digital cameras by an often significant margin. So the future collision point you speak of was actually reached some time ago :)

Furthermore some other phone cameras (e.g. the iPhone 4s) are "good enough" for most people most of the time, so have already won out over the stand alone digital camera.

And as a point to note, the new 808 camera makes the N8's camera look rather average! ;-)

4 upvotes
marike6
By marike6 (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm surprised the D7000, skin-tone police aren't commenting on the yellowish, jaundiced look of the models.

1 upvote
Infms
By Infms (Feb 27, 2012)

"the camera will output 3, 5MP or 8MP stills, rather than offering its full resolution" is incorrect.

Supported aspect ratios and resolutions are as follows:
True 16:9 (2 MP, 5 MP [Default], 8 MP, 41 MP)
4:3 (3 MP, 5 MP, 8 MP, 41 MP)

Source: http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-808-pureview/specifications

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Joesiv
By Joesiv (Feb 27, 2012)

keep reading...

you might have just quoted dpreview with those numbers.

0 upvotes
Richard Butler
By Richard Butler (Feb 27, 2012)

I've clarified that in most of its shooting modes it doesn't output full resolution (though it did already explain that you could get the maximum 38MP if you wanted).

Ultimately, those specs contradict Nokia's own white paper and diagram. You can't ever get 41MP out of the camera (because the lens doesn't cover the whole sensor).

0 upvotes
Fri13
By Fri13 (Feb 28, 2012)

You know that you can not get two different aspect rations with same full image sensor aspect ration?
Right?

It is impossible that with same sensor aspect ration you can get 41MP with 16:9 and 4:3 aspect rations, or does the sensor someway morf itself to such aspect rations? :)

0 upvotes
Goodmeme
By Goodmeme (Feb 27, 2012)

just put this in an android phone pls someone. I'm looking at you Samsung. Give us the S3 Galaxy with a larger sensor pls!

0 upvotes
Najinsky
By Najinsky (Feb 27, 2012)

"Pixel Size: 1.4um"

I blinked and missed it.

This looks like a real tour de force from a company who have recently been shocked into action, and what a great response. Stunning samples.

The quality of the camera has become a key factor in the purchase of my last two phones, and this is a direct assault on my wallet.

Its expected release date also coincides with with my contract renewal, surely an omen.

Apparently it makes phone calls too.

3 upvotes
Baxter Bad
By Baxter Bad (Feb 27, 2012)

Not for the U.S. market, I understand?

0 upvotes
Richard Butler
By Richard Butler (Feb 27, 2012)

We're trying to get a straight answer on that.

3 upvotes
Baxter Bad
By Baxter Bad (Feb 27, 2012)

Appreciate it.

0 upvotes
Rage Joe
By Rage Joe (Feb 28, 2012)

Not this camera for Yanks, they have their iCrappy and hate Nokia I've heard :)!

2 upvotes
Baxter Bad
By Baxter Bad (Feb 28, 2012)

Nah, we like Nokia just fine. We hate our carriers, and like the iPhone because of the sticking Apple gave it to them. Verizon still can't comprehend that they're not allowed paint their ***t logo on a phone they had nothing to do with designing and manufacturing, and can't prevent me from playing music I didn't buy in their stupid little online store.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
0 upvotes
Dvlee
By Dvlee (Feb 27, 2012)

Isn't this just a variation of the technology that Fujifilm/Sigma cameras have been using for years? It sounds similar to the techniques of using individual sensors for each color and luminosity and then combining the data for a lower file size.

In any case, I like the concept of pixel bining to reduce noise and I can see this being of great use in APS-C and full frame DSLRs. But does it necessarily have to be built into the camera? I could see a process like this as part of Photoshop or Lightroom that could be applied to any high megapixel image.

I've been doing a process something like that just by using the conventional features in Photoshop in which I apply some noise reduction, which blurs the image slightly. Then I downrez and sharpen resulting in a smaller but less noisy image.

What I think is most interesting is they squeezed that many pixels into a small chip. I'm not at the least interested in a better cell phone camera.

Comment edited 56 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Deleted1929
By Deleted1929 (Feb 27, 2012)

Quite different.

Those techniques were more localized. The Foveon sensor is layered - there's no binning or resampling. The Fuji tech used a smaller set of interlaced sensor elements to capture otherwise blown data, but this worked out at less than one extra sub-pixel per full pixel.

The Nokia tech is combining as many as 7 sub-pixels in every image to make one final pixel. This allows for a more sophisticated averaging process which, so the theory goes, leads to more noise control in the final image. It doesn't do what either the Fuji or Sigma tech does.

What a pity they choose their own OS rather than Android. Sigh.

0 upvotes
Dvlee
By Dvlee (Feb 27, 2012)

Honestly I was never exactly clear on how the Fuji or Foveon sensors did their thing. At the time they first appeared on the scene the concept seemed promising but after I had the opportunity to try them out I did not see a noticable advantage in image quality over conventional sensors. I thought the Sigma and Fuji advertising were a bit desceptive.

The real question is the results...makes not difference at how they are arrived at. Will the lower rez pixel binned deliver less noise than a full rez image processed as I described?

0 upvotes
Kuturgan
By Kuturgan (Feb 27, 2012)

It is my dream phone.
I could care it any ware I go, instead of "bulky" APS-C size Samsung NX10 :)
Einstein was right everything is relative.

2 upvotes
Frank C.
By Frank C. (Feb 27, 2012)

you can probably fit this thing in the d800's battery compartment lol... way to go Nokia!

0 upvotes
pixelpeeper007
By pixelpeeper007 (Feb 27, 2012)

It is important to note that pixel-binning, in and of itself, cannot reduce noise over using a single pixel of the same size as the bin that collects all the light (Stats 101). Therefore the great noise performance comes from the much larger sensor.

Pixel-binning may be somewhat useful for digital zoom (and marketing), but any anti-alias filter will make shrinking images in software just as good and potentially more flexible. I'm wondering if doing it in hardware saves power, CPU cycles, or program storage space instead.

2 upvotes
Peter 13
By Peter 13 (Feb 27, 2012)

It is not binning, it is resizing. You cannot do binning with "around" 7 pixels. This is not the first time this sites talks about things that they do not understand.

1 upvote
Gadgety
By Gadgety (Feb 27, 2012)

Very, very impressive. Interesting how Nokia cannot introduce this into a WP device as WP can't (yet) handle the resolution and computation. Here that old Symbian tech rules. It'll be interesting to follow what WP8 will bring. As some others here have stated - would be nice to see this in an Android device, but why would Nokia release this tech as a stand alone if it brings them a competitive advantage and (finally) manages to sell some WP devices? This must diminish the market for p-o-s cameras, that is for sure.

2 upvotes
epdm2be
By epdm2be (Feb 29, 2012)

WP8 won't be compatible with current WP7-phones. Microsoft will also NOT add multi-core and higher resolution support to WP7.x
Win 8 on ARM already has multi-core, multi-display and full HD support. WP7 is a stop-gap to slow down the flee to iOS and Android until Win8 is ready.

Comment edited 15 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
iae aa eia
By iae aa eia (Feb 27, 2012)

One word, "WOW!" Great sensor definition, lens sharpness and color rendition. I had never expected, but, seriously, "Nokia, you're welcome to join the photography big guys club." Considering simple snapshots, what are Nikon 1 and Pentax Q systems about now?

If its calling and browsing experiences are at least good, this is gonna sell A LOT! Something not all that good? Its screen (maybe, 'cause I haven't checked it very carefully) and its design.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Jarda_Houdek
By Jarda_Houdek (Feb 27, 2012)

Nikon 1 and Pentax Q will remain - they are for guys that like to play with different lenses. I was seriously considering one of these, but then I realized my phone is almost 5 years old. I need a new one.

1 upvote
ARTASHES
By ARTASHES (Feb 27, 2012)

The mobile foveon !!!

4 upvotes
Caleido
By Caleido (Feb 27, 2012)

Even at full res (38MP), it's very impressive. This is more "wow" than the difference between a D3 and a D4 in my book.

http://thenewcamera.com/?p=9292

Remember, this is just a phone.

2 upvotes
86
By 86 (Feb 27, 2012)

Interesting that the new technologies are coming from non-camera companies.

Comment edited 25 seconds after posting
5 upvotes
N8Phreak
By N8Phreak (Feb 28, 2012)

Nokia is the largest digital camera manufacture in the world.

1 upvote
MiLei
By MiLei (Feb 27, 2012)

I saw "After all, how often do we print images bigger than even A4". That is because most printers are max A4 or US eq. The day I get a larger printer I start printing larger than A4.

1 upvote
Baxter Bad
By Baxter Bad (Feb 27, 2012)

I'd read there was a mode that allows full-res shooting. I have three sample images that measure 7162x5368 each. They look great even at 100%. Aren't these actually full res, or have I misunderstood something?

0 upvotes
wallbergrep
By wallbergrep (Feb 27, 2012)

They are 5MP samples. You can choose 38MP also.

0 upvotes
Baxter Bad
By Baxter Bad (Feb 27, 2012)

Yeah, but the article says:

"Interestingly, the camera will output 3, 5MP or 8MP stills, rather than offering its full resolution."

The samples I have (from Photo Rumors) seem to be 38MP, therefore, confusion.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Revenant
By Revenant (Feb 27, 2012)

The article also says "though you can output the full resolution if you wish - 38MP at 4:3 aspect ratio".

0 upvotes
Baxter Bad
By Baxter Bad (Feb 27, 2012)

Missed that, thanks.

0 upvotes
CAcreeks
By CAcreeks (Feb 28, 2012)

7162 * 5368 = 38445616

38445616 / 1000 / 1000 = 38.44 Mp

0 upvotes
techmine
By techmine (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks for explaining the Nokia 41MP DPR! I was waiting since morning :-)
Overall a good news. This is innovation - good or bad we will find out. The samples look very good. I like the colors. I would love to see a video out of this baby. Yes I agree with others, why can't this be Android (limitations? or just WM7 jail?). Nevertheless cellphone makers are putting more and more thought behind cameras which is again a good thing.

2 upvotes
Timbukto
By Timbukto (Feb 27, 2012)

Why are mobile phone companies coming up with the best innovation in P&S or compact cameras? Its the same thing Japanese companies did with minidisc...absolutely nothing except slightly smaller and prettier packages. Minidisc is dead.

0 upvotes
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 27, 2012)

I think it's because Nokia doesn't make/sell cameras. They only make phones which allows them to make the best they can. Unlike Sony or Panasonic or Samsumg etc where making such a phone will eat away at the sales of their own digital cameras.

7 upvotes
Doug
By Doug (Feb 27, 2012)

That's not a cell phone.
A cell phone is the one with the smallest mass.
Smallest keypad and screen.
Smallest flip open feature.
That's a cell phone.
lol

0 upvotes
DioCanon
By DioCanon (Feb 27, 2012)

if you had a cell phonein the '90 you would disagree with what you just said...

4 upvotes
Earthlight
By Earthlight (Feb 27, 2012)

Okay, this is the end of the normal, pocketable point and shoot cameras. I hope iPhone 5 will be competitive.

1 upvote
Jay Kim
By Jay Kim (Feb 27, 2012)

Nothing will be competitive for at least 2 years IMO. That was the case with Nokia N8. It was released nearly 2 years ago and it still holds the title as having the best camera on a mobile phone right now.. till the 808 PureView came along.. No other company even dares to try something this crazy on a phone.. =)

11 upvotes
wallbergrep
By wallbergrep (Feb 27, 2012)

Iphone was never competitive against N82, N86 or ofcourse the mighty N8. Apple has the better marketing department thats for sure.

Comment edited 45 seconds after posting
8 upvotes
MrSkelter
By MrSkelter (Feb 27, 2012)

You won't be able to buy this unsubsidized for less than $600 unless something is radically new about Nokia's pricing. More likely it'll be $800 unlocked. That means the majority of people will have to trade their iPhone for this which most won't do.

It will be great for small cameras. The manufacturers have to react and Apple are already public about their dedication to imaging. I happen to know that Apple have big things planned from friends at the company. They've told me nothing specific but it's clear that Apple are spending a lot of money in this area.

Good times.

2 upvotes
marike6
By marike6 (Feb 27, 2012)

@wallbergrep Apple also has better software, interface, and apps for anything imaginable. And most non-photography people are satisfied with the iPhone's images.

2 upvotes
wallbergrep
By wallbergrep (Feb 27, 2012)

Yeah most but i am not.

4 upvotes
Peiasdf
By Peiasdf (Feb 28, 2012)

iPhone 5's camera won't beat this nor should Apple try. This is a $100 cellphone attached to a $690 camera and $10 OS. iPhone is a lot more than just a phone that can take pictures. Nokia is following Vertu's footstep.

0 upvotes
photoaddict
By photoaddict (Feb 27, 2012)

Wow! I am extremely impressed with all the sample images shown from that camera! I could buy it just for a camera!

I really love the 800 ISO sample - it looks a lot more "analog" and more organic. Love the colors.

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
7 upvotes
Bill Bentley
By Bill Bentley (Feb 27, 2012)

Agreed. And it's sharp too. Sharp enough to catch that stray nose hair. ;-)

2 upvotes
Apewithacamera
By Apewithacamera (Feb 27, 2012)

It's still just a phone. No where as good as a D800

1 upvote
Anfy
By Anfy (Feb 27, 2012)

Better fitting in a pocket than a dSLR, though...

1 upvote
mugupo
By mugupo (Feb 27, 2012)

lol, is like compare a big rig to normal truck. you can't fit big rig in a parking lot.

0 upvotes
sglewis
By sglewis (Feb 27, 2012)

True, but your D800 is awful for phone calls.

19 upvotes
tiberiousgracchus
By tiberiousgracchus (Feb 27, 2012)

did not see that one coming..sounds great !

0 upvotes
Felix E Klee
By Felix E Klee (Feb 27, 2012)

Is that oversampling any different than scaling the full-res picture in a graphics program to a smaller size?

0 upvotes
Just Hobbyist
By Just Hobbyist (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes and no. If the graphics program work with RAW pictures, you could do this but if you import jpegs there will be compression artifacts and distortions that will make this pretty much impossible, unless we are talking about really big resizings, even bigger than 41mp to 5mp.

I think Iäve explained this better somewhere in the forums, but cant find the article.

0 upvotes
Peiasdf
By Peiasdf (Feb 28, 2012)

A multi-core cellphone SOC should in theory be powerful enough to process complex algorithm like those used in Photoshop. A good smartphone should therefore have better OOC JPEG vs. P&S but of course the smartphone is 5 times as expensive as a P&S.

1 upvote
mpgxsvcd
By mpgxsvcd (Feb 27, 2012)

LOVE IT! That is innovation. I also love the climbing sample images. It is about time climbing becomes a mainstream sport.

0 upvotes
Eigenmeat
By Eigenmeat (Feb 27, 2012)

Let's hope this sensor find its way behind a better lens soon!
I resized some shot of those 40MP shots to 16MP, the detail level blow any current compacts away!

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=40743695

0 upvotes
Anfy
By Anfy (Feb 27, 2012)

In this official video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfvMWyWvrAQ
from 0:14 to 0:18 they show a 24mm to 74mm "zoom" range.
Why this difference, maybe for the multi-aspect sensor?

0 upvotes
kwa_photo
By kwa_photo (Feb 27, 2012)

This would not get me to buy a Nokia or Android based phone, but the tech is impressive. Yet one more sign that the nail in the coffin for dedicated "basic" p&s cameras is coming quicker than we thought.

I've always been a DSLR type shoot (film before that with SLRs) but always had a very small p&s in my pocket. No more. My iPhone 4s is more than enough for quick snaps of acceptable and sometimes outstanding quality.

Sure, there will be a market for "high end" p&s camera (think G1X, X10, G12, LX5, etc.), but for most p&s....they are dying.

1 upvote
wallbergrep
By wallbergrep (Feb 27, 2012)

Nokia did it again. Make me speechless.

1 upvote
Total comments: 667
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