Richard Butler

Richard Butler

DPReview Administrator
Lives in United Kingdom Seattle, United Kingdom
Joined on Nov 7, 2007

Comments

Total: 3266, showing: 961 – 980
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On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

Bodhi Dharma Zen: To put it in other words. MARKETING people are (professional) liars. They would push a lens as being "2.8" when, in reality, their light sensitivity is a lot less (depending of course of the relative size between sensor and lenses)... There should be LAWS to guarantee that marketing people should be limited to stating FACTS in RELATION to an approved standard.

@Fygaren - it's not totally wrong.

By *definition* F1.2=F1.2=F1.2. We're not disputing that.

However, F1.2 does not give the same results across different formats. The combination of the way F-numbers and ISO rating work mean that they give the same JPEG brightness. Again, the article explains that.

An F1.2 aperture on a 2.7x crop camera behaves comparably (from a physics perspective), to an F3.2 lens of the same field-of-view on a full frame sensor. This is demonstrably true (and I've done my best to demonstrate it).

We've not suggested that anyone should completely give up on the ISO way of looking at exposure or do away with F-numbers.

However, we have explained a rigorous means of understanding how formats compare to one another, which can help understand the trade-offs inherent in *all* camera systems.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 19:09 UTC
On Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 First Impressions Review preview (1267 comments in total)
In reply to:

Autoxave: The specs of of this lens is 25-400 mm/2,8-4. In terms of a FF sensor this will translate (equivalence) into 9-148 mm/5.6-10,8?

In simple terms: F-numbers dictate how *intense* the light is - how many photons land on each square mm of sensor. Sensor size dictates how many square mm you have, collecting the light.

As a result, a 25mm F7.6 lens on full frame would project 1/7.4th the light onto each square mm of the sensor than the 9.1mm f2.8 lens would onto the FZ1000's sensor.

However, the full frame sensor is 7.4 times larger, so the total light available to make up the image would be the same.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 04:16 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

Ruy Penalva: Butler. My question. It is told that f/8 is the optimum limit to diffraction in digital sensor. My question to you is: The shift in aperture equivalence is followed by a decrease in diffraction too? In other words. Take a Panasonic lens with an upper f/5.6 aperture. The equivalent aperture of that lens would be f/11.2. How that real aperture of f/5.6 (or 11.2 equivalent) behaves in regard to diffraction? Is diffraction related to amount or to intensity of light?

From the bottom of page 2:

*Although diffraction depends on F-number, its impact on the image is proportional to sensor size. This means diffraction will have the same impact on two images shot at equivalent apertures.*

Consequently, if you've decided that f/8 on full frame is as far as you're willing to push the depth-of-field/diffraction balance, then yes, that would be f/4 on Micro Four Thirds.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 03:46 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

Fygaren: Richard:
"But F1.2 is not equivalent to F1.2 across different formats"
F-number is a relative dimensionless number that is a quantitative measure of lens speed, so there cant be an "equivalent" across different formats. Its already "the equivalent" so to speak.
When you use f-number and DOF toghether things get messed up, as its only distance and aperture diameter that determins DOF.
The f-number free it self from aperture diameter (f2 can be any diameter) and only say something about intensity.
You can use the f-number to calculate the aperture diameter and compare it to other aperture diameters, but "equivalent f-number"...nah, its a relative number for light intensity per square area.
Anyway, a clumsy mix when used together.
F2=F2=F2 and the same aperture diameter gives the same DOF.
Nothing wrong in your article, just that so many speak of f-number as if it was aperture diameter. I think a clear use of f-number with exposure and aperture diameter with DOF would help

It is, but, given a 50mm f/2 lens on a Four Thirds sensor and 100mm f/4 lens on a full frame camera (at the same shutter speed) give the same field-of-view, project the same amount of light over their imaging circles, give the same depth-of-field and the same diffraction, it would seem perverse to try to invent a new way of describing the aperture, just for this usage.

Equally, you could argue that focal length is focal length, so why do people keep saying a 9.6mm lens can be equivalent to a 28mm lens?

No aspect of the 9.6mm lens has suddenly become 28mm.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 03:00 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

JABB66: Some special considerations in case of Foveon sensors?

@JAB66 - You don't have to make any other considerations of sensor area, though the very different sensor performance of Foveon chips (which I can't sensibly address in the space available), is an extreme example of why I'm wary of drawing absolute conclusions from the effect of total light.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 02:49 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

JABB66: Some special considerations in case of Foveon sensors?

@Great Bustard

I didn't mean to suggest total light isn't *a* metric - just that it isn't the metric of image performance, since equally efficient sensors isn't a perfect real-world assumption.

And yes, we fully plan to write an article looking at sources of noise (and the fact that shot noise is your biggest enemy in most circumstances).

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 02:46 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

quezra: This article goes to show that people will believe what they want to believe, and all the detailed evidence and careful explanation in the world won't change that. The enormous number of posters jumping in to flatly assert the article is wrong (or make claims that clearly show zero understanding of the article) is getting into the double figures now. Fun to watch actually :D

4) Are we asking lens manufactures to include markings in equivalent F-stops?

No. Or, at least, I'm not. That wouldn't be helpful. Maybe list it in marketing materials, but don't mark it on the camera/lens.

5) By this process a lens can be described by any equivalent FL/F-stop which is contrary to the lens specification as we know today.

Given how poorly understood they are, maybe we should change them. CIPA currently allows the inclusion of FL, F-stop and equivalent FL. Rather than mixing and matching (and getting the '25-400mm F2.8-4' confusion), why not state FL + F-number then eFL + eF-number?

6) You do say that 50/2 lens on a m43 will have equivalent DOF of 100/4 lens on FF and I say full stop(pun intended) here and don't add then therefore 50/2 lens have equivalent F/4.

I'm not saying it will have equivalent F/4. I'm saying its behaviour on that sensor is equivalent to the behaviour of an 100mm F/4 on full frame (which it is, in almost every respect).

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 02:36 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

quezra: This article goes to show that people will believe what they want to believe, and all the detailed evidence and careful explanation in the world won't change that. The enormous number of posters jumping in to flatly assert the article is wrong (or make claims that clearly show zero understanding of the article) is getting into the double figures now. Fun to watch actually :D

Reason 1) Equivalency of a dimensionless number seems counter intuitive.

I agree, it's not ideal. But, since you've got the equivalent focal length, you know what it's referring to.

2) will be confused with "equivalent exposure", IMHO.

I'm not sure what we can do about that (it's not my terminology).

3) The equivalency is on DOF and not F-stop, IMHO.

I'm open to suggestions of better terminology.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 02:34 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

quezra: This article goes to show that people will believe what they want to believe, and all the detailed evidence and careful explanation in the world won't change that. The enormous number of posters jumping in to flatly assert the article is wrong (or make claims that clearly show zero understanding of the article) is getting into the double figures now. Fun to watch actually :D

In which case, I don't understand your concerns. I can't see what you're taking issue with in the article, just that you don't like it.

I'm also not sure what makes you think any posters have any connection with me or reason to wish to defend me.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 01:01 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

DoctorJerry: Aperture equivalence
I ran a test using my Panasonic LF1 and selected sensor sizes of 12MP, 8MP, 5MP 3MP and 0.3MP. I can select those sensor sizes by using Panasonic’s EZ Zoom which trims off pixels on the perimeter of the sensor to arrive at a smaller sensor. As I read your article, I should have been needing either a higher ISO, slower shutter speed, or faster aperture as I trimmed pixels from the sensor. I found NO difference my test shots, all shot at 1/80sec, F2.0 and ISO 200, they were the same REGARDLESS of the size of the sensor I used.

Where I think you went wrong is in talking about how much less light reaches the sensor as the sensor gets smaller. What you overlooked was that the same quantity of light reached the plane of the sensor but since the sensor was smaller, it captured less light. It did NOT need all the light reaching the plane of the sensor, only enough to cover the sensor itself. According to my test f2.0 is 2.0 regardless of the sensor size.

We're a review site. Oddly enough, we want to help people make as informed a decision as possible. That's why I wrote this article.

As much as anything else, this article is intended as background reading (and supporting evidence) to explain the [equivalent aperture diagrams](http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-fz1000/images/apertures.png), we include in reviews where would-be buyers might be considering cameras of different formats.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 00:50 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

ThePhilips: DPR, you should have started with historical fact that 135 film format, aka "Full Frame", started its life as a crop, literally.

All these formats are crops of the crops of the crops. None of them is "full".

I explicitly pointed out that I'm not saying Full Frame is an ideal or optimal format (frankly it's arguably a niche format in the digital era), it's just used as a reference point because it was the *de facto* standard in the film era.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 00:46 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

JABB66: Some special considerations in case of Foveon sensors?

In what sense?

The article already suggests that differences in sensor technology and performance mean that, although total light gives you a *guide* to performance, it shouldn't be considered a metric.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 00:32 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

DoctorJerry: Aperture equivalence
I ran a test using my Panasonic LF1 and selected sensor sizes of 12MP, 8MP, 5MP 3MP and 0.3MP. I can select those sensor sizes by using Panasonic’s EZ Zoom which trims off pixels on the perimeter of the sensor to arrive at a smaller sensor. As I read your article, I should have been needing either a higher ISO, slower shutter speed, or faster aperture as I trimmed pixels from the sensor. I found NO difference my test shots, all shot at 1/80sec, F2.0 and ISO 200, they were the same REGARDLESS of the size of the sensor I used.

Where I think you went wrong is in talking about how much less light reaches the sensor as the sensor gets smaller. What you overlooked was that the same quantity of light reached the plane of the sensor but since the sensor was smaller, it captured less light. It did NOT need all the light reaching the plane of the sensor, only enough to cover the sensor itself. According to my test f2.0 is 2.0 regardless of the sensor size.

They're mainly useful for understanding the potential performance and capabilities of different systems.

This is relevant when you're choosing whether to buy an APS-C or a Micro Four Thirds camera, for instance. (If you buy lens X on system A, will it let you get the same depth-of-field as lens Y on system B?). And it's only one factor - ergonomics, feature set and so forth are also important: I still wouldn't advise buying a camera based on specifications alone.

It's not necessarily something that you'd apply to choosing your exposure, on a regular basis.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 00:16 UTC
On Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 First Impressions Review preview (1267 comments in total)
In reply to:

Autoxave: The specs of of this lens is 25-400 mm/2,8-4. In terms of a FF sensor this will translate (equivalence) into 9-148 mm/5.6-10,8?

Autoxave: it depends on how cynical you're feeling:

If you're convinced they're out to get you, you could say that manufacturers are trying to **hide the truth** from people and avoid drawing attention to how terrible and limiting the compact cameras that they've been selling us are.

Alternatively, it was a genuine attempt to communicate the zoom range that a lens offers. While also, given the use of a sensitivity standard that tried to mimic the system used in film (which cancels-out the effect of sensor size), tell you the number that's relevant for exposure.

[Equivalent apertures](http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2666934640/) tell you interesting things about comparative performance and capability between systems, but they're not necessarily hugely *useful* while shooting, unless you completely dismantle the ISO system.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 9, 2014 at 00:10 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

DoctorJerry: Aperture equivalence
I ran a test using my Panasonic LF1 and selected sensor sizes of 12MP, 8MP, 5MP 3MP and 0.3MP. I can select those sensor sizes by using Panasonic’s EZ Zoom which trims off pixels on the perimeter of the sensor to arrive at a smaller sensor. As I read your article, I should have been needing either a higher ISO, slower shutter speed, or faster aperture as I trimmed pixels from the sensor. I found NO difference my test shots, all shot at 1/80sec, F2.0 and ISO 200, they were the same REGARDLESS of the size of the sensor I used.

Where I think you went wrong is in talking about how much less light reaches the sensor as the sensor gets smaller. What you overlooked was that the same quantity of light reached the plane of the sensor but since the sensor was smaller, it captured less light. It did NOT need all the light reaching the plane of the sensor, only enough to cover the sensor itself. According to my test f2.0 is 2.0 regardless of the sensor size.

The article tries to make clear that the nature of f-numbers (which guarantees light intensity) and ISO (which guarantees image brightness), come together to give the results you observe.

As such, the article doesn't say that you *need* to change ISO or shutter speed.

However, blow all your images up to the same size and you'll find the smallest crop is noisier - it's received the same light per-unit-area, but this means it's received less light in total (since the area captured is smaller). Far from ignoring this point, much of the article *makes* that point.

The least-cropped image received the most light in total. If you're saying that it didn't *need* this extra light, compared to the smallest crop, then you're effectively saying you could have reduced the ISO (and shutter speed) and still got the same total light as the smallest crop. At which point, you've understood it.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 8, 2014 at 23:59 UTC
On Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 First Impressions Review preview (1267 comments in total)
In reply to:

Markol: I've been a huge fan of Jeff for many years but the final thoughts he put together destroy much of his reputation IMHO.
While I'm not at all against this camera, an enthusiast would never argue that he doesn't print large anyway so the inferior IQ is ok when going on a once in a lifetime holiday.
But amazon will be happy with the text, that's for sure.

Overlooking that fact that most cameras are really good, we actually don't always give awards. We also have to face hugely aggressive criticism from our readers every time we don't give a camera our highest award. By comparison, no manufacturer or advertiser has ever expressed an opinion, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm not willing to be attacked every time I don't give a Gold **and** told that we are a soft-touch. There are many, many worse offenders on that score.

Jeff quite honestly set out the trade-off he's willing to make and what cost he pays for doing so (something I can't imagine an advertiser would encourage). In doing so, he was much less promotional than your description of it as being 'super nice.'

Unless you're suggesting that we can only give awards to full frame DSLRs (which are not exactly the optimal tool for most people), then it's legitimate to like a camera despite acknowledging the trade-offs.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 8, 2014 at 23:46 UTC
On Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 First Impressions Review preview (1267 comments in total)
In reply to:

Autoxave: The specs of of this lens is 25-400 mm/2,8-4. In terms of a FF sensor this will translate (equivalence) into 9-148 mm/5.6-10,8?

@Denis de Gannes - the lens is **not** 25-400mm.

It is a 9.1-146mm F2.8-4.
Such a lens is *equivalent* to a 25-400mm F7.6-10.9 on a full frame camera in terms of depth-of-field, angle-of-view and total light per image.

What I wrote acknowledged the true F number (used for exposure) and stated the most directly comparable lens on full frame. I didn't say this *is* an f/7.6-10.9, I said it was *equivalent* to one. Which is absolutely true.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 8, 2014 at 23:39 UTC
On Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 First Impressions Review preview (1267 comments in total)
In reply to:

Markol: I've been a huge fan of Jeff for many years but the final thoughts he put together destroy much of his reputation IMHO.
While I'm not at all against this camera, an enthusiast would never argue that he doesn't print large anyway so the inferior IQ is ok when going on a once in a lifetime holiday.
But amazon will be happy with the text, that's for sure.

There are very few cameras that take better photos than the 5D Mark III, in the grand scheme of things, so it's not surprising that there's an IQ cost to be paid for the FZ1000's much greater portability and much lower price tag.

Jeff hasn't said the IQ is bad (it's actually very good, especially for a compact), just that there's a trade-off to be made. And I don't think he'd be the only person willing to sacrifice a little bit of absolute image quality in order to take a camera that he could actually face carrying around.

I've known people to want a holiday in addition to the photographic opportunities.

Direct link | Posted on Jul 8, 2014 at 23:28 UTC
On Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 First Impressions Review preview (1267 comments in total)
In reply to:

Autoxave: The specs of of this lens is 25-400 mm/2,8-4. In terms of a FF sensor this will translate (equivalence) into 9-148 mm/5.6-10,8?

The specs are:
9.1-146mm, F2.8-4,
which is equivalent to:
25-400mm, F7.6-10.9 in full frame terms.

The progression through the lens range [looks like this](http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-fz1000/images/apertures.png).

Direct link | Posted on Jul 8, 2014 at 23:19 UTC
On What is equivalence and why should I care? article (2132 comments in total)
In reply to:

HeyItsJoel: That's it. I'm going full frame.

I was sold between micro 4/3 and APS-C cameras because of their small footprint. But after reading this, I've decided that anything worth doing in photography is worth doing right.

The thought of having to lug all that heavy equipment around while traveling definitely sucks. But in the end, image quality should not be sacrificed. This couldn't be more important when traveling to a location I will be more likely to go to only once in my life. That means getting it right the FIRST time.

Why not go to medium format, then?

Direct link | Posted on Jul 8, 2014 at 22:03 UTC
Total: 3266, showing: 961 – 980
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