mikeodial: Interesting ... if you go to the Leica thread they all seem to be talking about photographs and photography. Perhaps that's why Leica users can take good photographs.
Yes, you buy by your requirements, which apparently are "what can I buy to make me feel special?".
And nobody is shouting. last I checked this was written language and nothing here is vocalized. Maybe you need to reconfigure the app you use to read forums to you so that its quieter, and then you won't feel so accosted.
I never said you didn't work hard for your money. Again, the world isn't about YOU and only YOU. Relax, Mr. Defensive.
Yes, you keep saying there are all these "Pros" using the SL. That's wonderful. Unfortunately, you've mentioned two people, one of which (Slack) I doubt many have heard of outside Leica circles (and who it appears received an eval copy, rather than purchasing one). Worry not, if a camera is useful, special people won't need to parade it around for it to sell.
Wait...I CAN'T have your autograph! Oh no!!!
Wow, got defensive about your wealth/status when it was never brought into question. What's that?? You have tons of "very expensive" things?? Wow, you must be really important!!! Can I have your autograph?? And what's that? The two biggest Leica apologists purchased an SL? Wow, that is really shocking!!!
Let's gander at an excerpt from Mr. Slack's review of the SL:
"This August Andreas Kaufmann posted a photograph on Facebook of Lenny Kravitz shooting with a Leicaflex SL, I thought this was delightfully oblique, and it prompted me to buy a Leicaflex SL2 secondhand at a very modest price, it’s wonderfully made and just lovely to use, and my 41 year old beauty is still working perfectly."
Wait, so he bought a camera because he saw an online association between the camera, a notorious leica shill, and lenny kravitz.
Ok, Robert. You obviously did not come by any of your wealth via a solid understanding of economics, so I'll pretend you didn't just dig a deep hole and jump in.
AngryCorgi: Leica's new strategy: Sell overpriced cameras with terrible IQ and sell them on the (a) name and the (b) fact they are milled from a block of aluminum. Being a big chunk of metal really shouldn't be a selling point, unless you are very weak-minded.
DPR's Adobe-converted raw files don't count? Mkay. No use arguing with someone who has poor vision. You are the only person who sees less noise in the SL shots at equiv sensitivities than the A7RII. Continue with whatever mental gymnastics is required to defend your investment in your "toy".
a bit better than the A7RII, my foot. Buy some new glasses, son. Better yet, hit the "comp" icon on the comparison tool. If you think the Leica looks less noisy with better color accuracy in RAW than the A7RII, then you are suffering from fanboyism, because its simply not an accurate claim. Compare ANYTHING red on the studio sample. The Leica looks awful. Don't bother even speaking about the RAW DR comparison tool: the Leica is so far behind EVERYTHING that its not worth using as an argument for why this technologically lagging camera is more than double the price of an A7RII.
The one plus of the SL is the added bonuses. I normally spend hours every day adding a special banding effect to all my photos in post...Leica puts that into the image straight out of the camera! Now that is time and effort saved. Thanks, Leica!!
You are right, there is more to a camera, like the sensor...which in this case, appears to be lagging behind the competition by a fair amount. When I cited this you said "have you handled the camera?" and we shifted to the nonsensical ergonomics of the camera...now you want to switch back to the sensor to gain points? There were no points to be had before, and none have developed since, so...yeah, the sensor is not a plus, going by the early samples. I agree, this camera sells. It makes use of the snob effect quite expertly. Leica has you thinking its great because its expensive, even though the performance isn't there.
"Shooting in very dark lighting is easier with mirrorless bodies in most cases"
What the what...? I have had many mirrorless cameras & DSLRs and I can say that the mirrorless cameras did NOT outperform the DSLRs in "very dark lighting". If anything, the DSLRs have had more success AFing in extreme low light.
Long conversation short: Leica makes overpriced crap because there are currently people stupid enough to buy it at those prices. As long as there is demand by a bunch of irrational "collectors" instead of working photographers, Leica will flourish.
Leica is a Veblen product price-driven by the "snob effect". They machine the product from a single chunk of aluminum to drive the "perceived value" of the item up without actually increasing the manufacturing cost by a lot.
Per Wikipedia (snob effect): "This situation is derived by the desire to own unusual, expensive or unique goods. These goods usually have a high economic value, but low practical value. The less of an item available, the higher its snob value. Ultimately, wealthy consumers can be lured by superficial factors such as rarity, celebrity representation and brand prestige."
Oh, ok. So to mill out ONE camera, Leica needs to pay the machine operators and QA checkers $4000? That's an "actual living wage"? I need to go work for Leica then. I'll work one day a month and still live in a mansion. Stop trying to use bad logic to support garbage pricing. All you do is make it clear you don't have a good grasp of supply-chain costs when you do that.
Please, tell us the appeal of mirrorless. Is it the viewfinder with latency and electronic gain/noise over a bright, natural optical prism viewfinder? Or is it the wonderful added issues of pairing compact optics with sensors that are three-dimensional and thus have optical errors at extreme angles? Because, according to you and Leica, the efficiency & portability (size AND weight) are of absolute no concern to anyone looking at mirrorless systems. Please cite ergonomics so we can discuss the "enhanced feel of hard painted metal against your hand versus textured polymer surfaces" when holding a camera.
They sure as heck ain't talking about this sorry camera.
I've never held an A7 and thought "I really wish this was the size of a DSLR". Leica has totally gone off the rails of reality and misses why people are attracted to mirrorless cameras. If they wanted to make a huge camera, then they should have gone ahead and included a mirror/prism. This camera is a pointless excercise in combining weird excesses and unfortunate shortcomings into one entity.
Wow, that was incoherent. Apple does make laptops out of aluminum, for a premium (110-125% the price of competitors). Leica makes a camera out of aluminum and then sells it for 300-400% the price of competitors. Math is your friend. Comparing Apple to Leica is a complete logical fail. IT weighs as much as a Nikon D610 and has almost the same height and width as the D610! It's a monstrosity. And I say the image quality is horrible, because compared to its competition, the IMAGE QUALITY IR HORRIBLE! Of course I saw the sample gallery, and I also saw the controlled images in the test shots and neither are exceptional. The way it blows the reds is unattractive, IMO. And at first I thought it was just the JPEG engine, but the DNGs wind up looking the same. When you charge $8k for a $2k camera, you set yourself up for critical evaluation. This camera, at first glance, does not fair well in this category.
Leica's new strategy: Sell overpriced cameras with terrible IQ and sell them on the (a) name and the (b) fact they are milled from a block of aluminum. Being a big chunk of metal really shouldn't be a selling point, unless you are very weak-minded.
Yuck. Not only does the sensor have the SNR and DR of Canon sensor from 2005, the jpeg and raw samples show nearly-blown reds. Gross. Leica really missed the mark with this weird monstrosity.
Meh...no loss...those sensors were not up to the quality of the Sony sensors that replaced them in the Nikon lineup.
Wow. An obese mirrorless camera that costs 5x the price of the camera it mimics in both shape and functionality. Leica (and anyone dumb enough to buy into this nonsense) is quickly earning joke status.
If this level of AF quality makes it to the APS-C cameras soon, there is some hope that a metabones speedbooster equipped Sony could finally AF with real-world competence.
I'm really impressed with the performance with the metabones-adapted lens. That is crazy good for that setup!
wombat661: "Imagine the potential for fast and accurate focus with shallow depth-of-field F1.4 primes."I see you did the test at f4. But you talk about f1.4. You realize f1.4 has a razor thin depth of field. So... can this Sony actually focus track at f1.4. For comparison, even my 3 generations ago old Nikon D7000 can track an electric go-kart coming at me with a 85mm f1.4 lens and get tack sharp focus in moderately low light. In gymnastic I can track and catch a high speed spin on the bars in moderate light with the DSLR. You realize that is FAST!Every 3 months yet another mirrorless comes along and say they can match DSLR. Each time turns out to be a bust. So can it really, really I mean really really do it this time???? Don't come back in yet another 3 months and say really, this XYZ camera can really match DSLR!
Don't you wish you could take back that post? Trashtalking a camera and failing horribly at it...well done!
Rishi Sanyal: To everyone wondering what the advantages of the improved sensors (mainly faster sensor readout) are - aside from the obvious: 4K and high fps stills and video - please wait for a sneak peak at this camera's AF tracking capabilities in continuous AF. We'll publish a quick look that I think may turn some heads.
Good. RX100s needed some AF improvement above all else.
Cue the Canon fanboys trashing the new Sony camera whilst using a brand new camera with a sensor designed 12 years ago.
zakaria: It is the Sony samsung war in BSI technology. This tool is a piece of hi tech but the price is the weak part.
I have no idea why you would expect its "critical image quality" to be inferior to the D810. The RX1 proved that it could blow away any 24mp/35mm DSLR pairing. Pair this with the Ultra-sharp 55mm f/1.8 ZA lens, and I think you'll find it to be easily the equal of the equivalent best you can put together w/ a d810.