Zeisschen: You know your company has done a tremendous job when you read so many butthurt comments on dpreview section...
Kudos to Sony for being the biggest and most constant challenger and innovator in the camera market since 5 years! The camera world would be boring without you!
I'll just put this here:
PeaceKeeper: More expensive than a brand new m3 with summicron on release(adjusted).
RAW asks PK if there is ISO3200 color film options. When he answers, RAW comes back acting like he's been insulted with "don't assume I've never done it". Dude pretends to be marginalized like he's some martyr. Ridiculous.
He "lost"? Since when is discussing something objectively a win/lose proposition? Oh, that's right...I forgot...discussing anything logically with you is an immediate lost cause. Keep crapping on the chess board, my friend.
Word to the wise...
Arguing with HowaboutRAW (yes, he's so well educated he thinks "RAW" is an acronym) is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are at chess, he's just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like he's victorious. You can't have a meaningful conversation with a guy who treats a camera company like his favorite football team. Save your responses for people who use logic.
Mike FL: If you want buy a $1000 cam with noticeable better IQ than Nikon D7200, buying SONY A7.
Nikon D7200 and SONY A7 are more less the same price, but A7 was less than $1000 for a while last year @$899 while SONY was building its FF user base.
If you want buy a cam with more less the same IQ as Nikon D7200 but half price, buying an refurb Nikon D7100.
If you like sub-frame sensor cam, you will not go wrong with D7100, D7200, or next year's D7300 as far as I can see.
Who cares how resellers list anything? The P&S market is shriveling & the terminology has become toxic to advanced cameras. Sony does NOT market their RX1/RX10/RX100 cameras as "P&S" cameras. I could resell them & call them "Sparkly Fun Blocks", but that who cares. I'm not the manufacturer, & I'm not paying millions for TV spots to market them. I always yield to the wisdom of the those who r experts on their products, not the resellers who vary site 2 site. As I said "I WOULD NOT REFER TO THEM AS POINT AND SHOOTS", & after you have made your arguments, I still would not.
If you like weak arguments, see Wikipedia: "Point-and-shoots are by far the best selling type of separate camera, as distinct from camera phones. They are popular with people who do not consider themselves photographers but want easy-to-use cameras for snapshots of vacations, parties, reunions and other events. Point-and-shoot camera sales declined after about 2010 as smartphones overtook them in such uses."
Panasonic is the ONLY company that is actively marketing their large-sensor, fixed-lens raw-capable cameras under the "P&S" category. Sony, the company you listed and I referred to, markets them as "Expert Capability Cyber-Shots".
I tried reading your link aloud, but alas, doing so didn't invalidate my original comment.
I would not refer to those as "point and shoots". Fixed lens camera, yes...P&S stirs up thoughts of garbage cameras that have 1/2.3" or 1/1.6" sensors, very poor lenses and rarely any raw options.
electrophoto: My guess is as good as anyone else':Samsung makes a fine product, but certainly lacking big-brand CAMERA recognition. Whilst Samsung has been playing the camera game for a few years now, initially they only offered rebranded cameras.There were a lot of changes to their "system" and honestly to this day I have to see ONE professional shooting samsung.
Competing against Canon & Nikon, Sony & Fuji ... even Panasonic & Oly...up its sleeve to change that any time soon.
Simply this:For CANON & Nikon you have an incredible lens array, from the both canon & nikon and a great number of third party manufacturers. same for accessories. Flash Systems......Samsung is a bit of an Island in that regardAnd I doubt Samsung will change that anytime soon.
So unless they offer something mindblowing at an exciting (Very competitive) price and full host of lenses, accessories, etc... I don't see how they can be competitive, even widely successful. So I can understand if Samsung pulls back.
If you look up, the only clown spewing nonsense and performing edits is you. Nothing I post is edited. Go try and learn something and stop acting like a shill. Spouting BS about Leica being perfect in threads about OTHER manufacturers products just makes you look more like the jerkoff you are.
Good grief you are painfully stupid.
Actual tests and samples COMPLETELY disagree with you, but thanks for your uninformed opinion on the subject.
Wow. Howaboutraw, you've lost your mind. Samsung lenses perform very well for the most part = true. But, they do not outperform canon and Nikon pro lenses. I'd say they are roughly on par with them. If you think the Nikon 85/1.4 AFS or the 85L II take a back seat to Samsung or Leica, then you don't have any idea what you are talking about. That simply isn't the case. The Nikon, especially, is freakishly sharp. Zeiss has the sharpest portrait lens. Leica doesn't even have a modern ultra fast portrait lens and its old lenses (75 1.4 for example), while decent, can't hold up to modern sensors like the newer designs do. Please stop drooling all over yourself and trying to grab your Leica with one hand while holding on to zeiss' coat tails with the other. Zeiss is available to Nikon and Canon shooters. Leica isn't even in the conversation. Even Sigma makes a fine portrait lens, also affordable and available to Canon and Nikon shooters. Pump your Leica shill crap elsewhere.
Weird. The NX1 and NX500 are the first Samsung cameras that I thought would be terribly competitive. The only thing holding the NX1, at this point, are a few ergonomic nitpicks and the limitations of the lens offerings. And by limitations, I specifically refer to a lack of options, not to the quality of the existing options. This is a very odd rumor.
AngryCorgi: Good dynamic range but it "appears" to lack sharpness/definition.
That's why I put appears in quotes. IOW, this crappy early sample looks like it, but who knows its value.
Good dynamic range but it "appears" to lack sharpness/definition.
mikeodial: Interesting ... if you go to the Leica thread they all seem to be talking about photographs and photography. Perhaps that's why Leica users can take good photographs.
I'd love to see some "excellent" results from many Leica cameras, but all I have are a plethora of snapshots in various leica forums with various cameras by people who spend more time playing with their toys, apparently hoping one day they'll magically learn photography without learning anything about exposure or composition. Sadly, this "those people are all out shooting and not talking about their cameras" or whatever nonsense you guys come up with for hunkering down in the leica forums results in a lot of people who spent lots of $$$ but zero time on learning anything BEFORE taking cell-phone pictures with their Leicas.
Yes, you buy by your requirements, which apparently are "what can I buy to make me feel special?".
And nobody is shouting. last I checked this was written language and nothing here is vocalized. Maybe you need to reconfigure the app you use to read forums to you so that its quieter, and then you won't feel so accosted.
I never said you didn't work hard for your money. Again, the world isn't about YOU and only YOU. Relax, Mr. Defensive.
Yes, you keep saying there are all these "Pros" using the SL. That's wonderful. Unfortunately, you've mentioned two people, one of which (Slack) I doubt many have heard of outside Leica circles (and who it appears received an eval copy, rather than purchasing one). Worry not, if a camera is useful, special people won't need to parade it around for it to sell.
Wait...I CAN'T have your autograph! Oh no!!!
Wow, got defensive about your wealth/status when it was never brought into question. What's that?? You have tons of "very expensive" things?? Wow, you must be really important!!! Can I have your autograph?? And what's that? The two biggest Leica apologists purchased an SL? Wow, that is really shocking!!!
Let's gander at an excerpt from Mr. Slack's review of the SL:
"This August Andreas Kaufmann posted a photograph on Facebook of Lenny Kravitz shooting with a Leicaflex SL, I thought this was delightfully oblique, and it prompted me to buy a Leicaflex SL2 secondhand at a very modest price, it’s wonderfully made and just lovely to use, and my 41 year old beauty is still working perfectly."
Wait, so he bought a camera because he saw an online association between the camera, a notorious leica shill, and lenny kravitz.
Ok, Robert. You obviously did not come by any of your wealth via a solid understanding of economics, so I'll pretend you didn't just dig a deep hole and jump in.
AngryCorgi: Leica's new strategy: Sell overpriced cameras with terrible IQ and sell them on the (a) name and the (b) fact they are milled from a block of aluminum. Being a big chunk of metal really shouldn't be a selling point, unless you are very weak-minded.
DPR's Adobe-converted raw files don't count? Mkay. No use arguing with someone who has poor vision. You are the only person who sees less noise in the SL shots at equiv sensitivities than the A7RII. Continue with whatever mental gymnastics is required to defend your investment in your "toy".
a bit better than the A7RII, my foot. Buy some new glasses, son. Better yet, hit the "comp" icon on the comparison tool. If you think the Leica looks less noisy with better color accuracy in RAW than the A7RII, then you are suffering from fanboyism, because its simply not an accurate claim. Compare ANYTHING red on the studio sample. The Leica looks awful. Don't bother even speaking about the RAW DR comparison tool: the Leica is so far behind EVERYTHING that its not worth using as an argument for why this technologically lagging camera is more than double the price of an A7RII.
The one plus of the SL is the added bonuses. I normally spend hours every day adding a special banding effect to all my photos in post...Leica puts that into the image straight out of the camera! Now that is time and effort saved. Thanks, Leica!!
You are right, there is more to a camera, like the sensor...which in this case, appears to be lagging behind the competition by a fair amount. When I cited this you said "have you handled the camera?" and we shifted to the nonsensical ergonomics of the camera...now you want to switch back to the sensor to gain points? There were no points to be had before, and none have developed since, so...yeah, the sensor is not a plus, going by the early samples. I agree, this camera sells. It makes use of the snob effect quite expertly. Leica has you thinking its great because its expensive, even though the performance isn't there.
"Shooting in very dark lighting is easier with mirrorless bodies in most cases"
What the what...? I have had many mirrorless cameras & DSLRs and I can say that the mirrorless cameras did NOT outperform the DSLRs in "very dark lighting". If anything, the DSLRs have had more success AFing in extreme low light.