Hachu21: The exact same size as the eos M + 22 f/2... Oh my...
"Why do you compare a FF sensor inside a 5D with an APS-C into the 7D"
Because you compared that in the lx100 in the EOS-M claiming one was inferior (with no evidence) and then made the abstract claim that it was also boring, which is as bizarre as it is irrelevant. I actually compared the 5D to the LX100 sensor to make a counter point but you clearly didn't read what i posted properly.
apples and "oranges" indeed.
My point is simple and has nothing to do with PASM dials, shutter speed etc, it was simply to say that the IQ of the EOS-M will take some beating (go on, read my comment) and i still stand by that comment. size wise they are similar, IQ is likely to be better in the EOS-M, thats it. It was not me who decided to make the claim that the sensor in one was better than the other, that was you.
When i gave an example of comparing sensors being misleading because the 5D sensor (which is old) is certainly better than that in the LX100 (which is new) you decided to abuse me.
@marc, According to you, maybe. I'll wait until someone who has credentials does an objective review on the sensor rather than some nobody on the internet.
I expect the sensor to be no better than the 7D sensor that is fitted to the EOS-M and perhaps will require some firmware trickery due to the very impressive lens set up. Amazing design, it has to be said. i think people may be getting a bit carried away with this camera, sure it looks interesting but based on objective comparison its quite expensive for the kind of results you can expect if its compared to any camera you could purchase. Of course in this class, size and convenience have to be taken into consideration and I believe thats the point the original poster was making. Just because its old doesn't mean its inferior unless newness is all that matters. The sensor out of a 5D would run rings around this all day and thats much older than the 7D sensor.
does it really matter at this size, EOS-M isn't pocketable but the IQ with the 22mm f/2.0 and larger APS-C will take some beating
matty_boy: the x100 baffles me, admittedly the electronic shutter is not a bad addition but not an essential one, this is incremental at best. The preamble says about Fujis 'continuous improvement' but id say this is much more about re-hashing the same camera and trying to squeeze money out of an old camera. The DNA is the same but the price has gone up. If you look at the market now, you can pick up a canon EOS-M with 22mm f/2.0 lens for about £250, the system has few lenses but the x100 just has one, so when in direct comparison its not a consideration (although it does put the canon in a more favourable light) it has the same sensor as the canon 7D, so excellent DNA itself. For all intents and purposes its the same package as the x100 minus the vanity 'retro' exterior, with very marginal differences in capability. At £999 for the x100s i know which id buy and it doesn't have a Fuji badge on it...
I'm sure everyone disagreeing will continue to put forwards irrelevant arguments but firstly Jeremy, I can use any comparison I want, including the price of each camera today. In the real world there has never been a point where the x100t was £999 and the eos-m £600 at the same time in the real world. Maybe in some academic world with a time machine but not one I'm in. What the market thinks matters to bankers and business owners, do I care that the market thought the eos-m a dud? Nope It means I get as much camera as the x100t for quarter of the price, in the real world. Eos-m AF since firmware 2.0 is as good if not better then the 100s, there are videos showing this on YouTube. And this is not about the XA1, if you read earlier it's about the x100t which also has a wide f/2.0 lens. I hate it when people rewrite the argument so they can claim to be right, make sure you read posts more carefully in future Jeremy.
wow, a viewfinder, it must be some viewfinder to command a £750 premium over the Canon. Im sure purchasers need to convince themselves that their large outlay was justified, in your case, by a viewfinder. As with all Fuji gear, in a couple of months it will be half the price and there will be a new x100 with 99% of the same components but some other tenuous reason to pay RRP again... roflmao
Im not sure what your point is. This is purely about cost, my point is that they are effectively the same yet Fuji want a huge premium and you get pretty much the same results from a much cheaper camera. who cares what the market thinks, I'm sure fuji are happy taking a grand off people for a camera that does the same as something a quarter of the price.. who is the idiot ?
the x100 baffles me, admittedly the electronic shutter is not a bad addition but not an essential one, this is incremental at best. The preamble says about Fujis 'continuous improvement' but id say this is much more about re-hashing the same camera and trying to squeeze money out of an old camera. The DNA is the same but the price has gone up. If you look at the market now, you can pick up a canon EOS-M with 22mm f/2.0 lens for about £250, the system has few lenses but the x100 just has one, so when in direct comparison its not a consideration (although it does put the canon in a more favourable light) it has the same sensor as the canon 7D, so excellent DNA itself. For all intents and purposes its the same package as the x100 minus the vanity 'retro' exterior, with very marginal differences in capability. At £999 for the x100s i know which id buy and it doesn't have a Fuji badge on it...
lacikuss: The perfect marriage Chevrolet & Sony...both outstanding brands known for their high quality
I can't get passed the bias here, the RX100 is an outstanding camera, to try and belittle its achievements by suggesting it could be a loss-leader and then attempting to qualify that by claiming they could sell the RX1 for a ridiculously low price, why do that?
Also with Nikon and many premium compacts, the entire sensor is made by Sony. its disingenuous to write that Nikon "design chips" whilst asserting that Sony are merely fabricators in your opening sentence. This is not the truth, Nikon are not chip experts and are only directly involved in ADC aspect of post sensor image capture.
Im not sure why you feel the need to meander ambiguously into a position where you can still try to claim that your original assertions were anything other than bias/fanboyism or whatever. Followed by the stock 'grow up' churned out by all and sundry on internet forums, well done. Patronising clap trap, i get the impression you specialise in that sort of thing though.
@ M DeNero
very entertaining. the RX100 and RX1 are undoubtedly class leaders and yes unfortunately that includes the 'subjective' area of photographic quality. Although the RX10 has stiff competition (that actually uses the same Sony* sensor) it is (as i said they all are) 'arguably' a class leader. The RX100 is so far ahead of competition that new releases are almost redundant, making todays X30 launch almost pointless if you are objective. And, so what if Pellicle mirrors have been around for 50 years. The combustion engine was around for years before the car but by your logic we could argue that the car is not innovative at all as engines existed before them. Utterly ridiculous. I dislike this hugely biased attitude, to call Sony merely a 'gadget' company is pure ignorance. To prove how ridiculous this stand point is, you say "I trust imaging companies with decades of experience dealing with photography" So, would that include Nikon who use Sony sensors in all their products?
Have they been known as a Jack of all trades, master of one? Personally its the first time I've ever heard that statement about them, they are typically japanese in that they are not afraid to enter new markets. One of the things Steve Jobs admired about Sony was their exacting standards whatever they did. Their TVs have always been excellent, even going back to the Trinitrons, the walkman, high definition audio etc etc. Sony are relatively new to the photography game but they are doing a lot of pioneering stuff in the photography world, The RX1, RX10, RX100 are all arguably class leaders, Their work on translucent mirrors (SLT) is another area they have broken new ground and the a7s is the king of high ISO. I would defy anyone to see huge differences between the a7s and other cameras including the best from Canon and Nikon but I have to accept that some people maintain a bizarre pseudo-religious war between brands and this involves subjective and irrational detraction from others. sad
since when has sony been known for low quality (assuming this is some sort of critique). From what i have read, the yield and reliability for their Full Frame sensors is leagues ahead of anyone else (canon?) I've had other items from sony, a walkman many years ago, a MOSFET amp, and a TV set, all made much better than most of their rivals.. not sure what the point is here but if there is a suggestion that Sony are poor quality or low rent, its well wide of the mark. Maybe your preferred system is just taking buyers for a ride and charging them much more than they should. What is it they say about a fool and his money?
pkosewski: They took the A7S and they built this complicated rig, but they used one of Nikon's lenses.This really tells the whole story about Sony E system...
its tells a much bigger story about why lens systems don't really matter when considering the E system. I have an 'antique' (lets call them old) used lens collection in one of my stores, we would sell three or four per year until things took off with the E-system. There are some old incredibly sharp and fast lenses available if you look around, ebay etc. Id recommend having a look on flickr or other hosting sites to see the amazing shots being taken with some very exotic lens selections on the E-system. Focus peaking really is that good..
Just a Photographer: OMG - So we can expect the Nikon D820 within 6 month from now?
Nikon has a SERIOUS problem and it has to do with Quality Control!
Seems like they are trying to commit harakiri.... This is really going to hurt Nikon's trust and reputation.
I've read this thread with interest, as a store owner (3 specialist stores in the UK) we see a lot more latent issues resulting from manufacture than perhaps the general public are aware of. I'd say the Nikon issue is nothing out of the ordinary and nothing that has not been experienced before, there are many 'known' issues on cameras from all manufacturers that have never been officially recognised by them the focussing issues on the Canon 7D springs immediately to mind.
Objectively, Including sensor debris on the D600 if I look across all products we stock and have stocked over the last few years. By far the most returned items are from Fuji, especially X-system kit (although we did have a glut of f40d returned way back) Of these, we see a lot of lenses come back in, particularly the 28mm. You never see much about this other than if you dig around on consumer forums but stores see a very different reality. Im just pleased that for once a manufacturer is putting their hands up.
Its great to see these guys experimenting with new technology, continuing to push the envelope and not being held back by a negative mindset evidenced in some of the comments posted in response to this news. What a miserable bunch some of these are..
jennyrae: this is proof that Samsung is copying Sony. right Sony fans?
im not sure what the point is here, or why its relevant on a preview of the latest Sony NEX?
Retzius: I think this thing is going to have amazing image quality. Too bad it looks like butt.
I think your assessment is incredibly unfair forpetessake, and a bit overly emotional. Ive owned the DP1, DP1 merrill and DP2 merrill, there are minor issues with reds in some situations, the battery doesn't die in a matter of minutes, i got about 80-100 shots per battery but regularly spending whole days with a DSLR, carrying spare batteries is no great shakes. The high ISO is poor but its the DNA thats important the merrills cover classic large/medium format focal lengths with the same ISO limitations and are very much a modern equivalent. To say the resolution per pixel is the least of peoples concerns is also very ignorant. The ONLY reason i used these cameras was ONLY because of the resolution. I have captured images with these (especially the merrill) that are jaw dropping and that i truly believe could not come from any other platform, no surprise that the big 2 are looking at equivalent tech. If you understand the limitations and your own requirements they are amazing cameras
Artpt: Agreed with other comments on the industry milestone of three companies offering a mix of lenses and bodies in a common format!....a win for consumer choice.
Brand loyalists may not see the benefit in cross competition among the M43 products, but the exchange of common format opens up an entire industry to innovate on other technological aspects....
Pros already use this model to manage multiple aspects of their work but within their camera brand.
Another thought to consider is how fast a company can innovate a product if the R&D works around a known format over innovating the entire format (lenses, bodies, etc). The legacy costs do eat away at budgets and limit creativity.
the android apple innovation is a lazy example perpetuated largely by the google sponsored media. All the major innovation takes place on apple's platform not on androids. Take for example 64 bit mobile CPU implementation, a huge innovative breakthrough on devices, thats apple's android hasn't caught up yet, working finger print sensing, retina screens, the iPad, iBeacon all ground breaking technologies that change the market. Where is this so called innovation on android ? DART .. a solution to a problem caused by an interpreted language and weak VM, its a fix not an innovation, NFC ..? poorly implemented and likely to be replaced by other technologies. what innovation are you speaking of. If you want true innovation in software or hardware its always the iOS platform where it happens first.
(unknown member): Sorry to say, but I'm not convinced and actually I don’t see much value anymore in the reviews. This is mainly caused by the way the comparisons are made. DXO has a bit more value for me, the lenses are tested in combination with the body.
And don’t misunderstand me, I like the Sony camera’s a lot!
First of all I don't see any example pictures with tele-lens. 70mm is max or do I miss something? The Sony Vario-Tessar T* E 16-70mm F4 ZA OSS is BTW one of the better lenses. It is difficult to compare this configuration with the bad-commented Olympus E-P5 configuration with less qualitative good lenses and then draw conclusions. Try the E-P5 with the new Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm 1:2.8 PRO!And... in picture DSC00032-ISO100 it looks that the so called ‘shutter shock’ issue also pops-up in the Sony cameras. There are plenty other pictures online shot with longer lenses that have the same effects. But I don’t read anything in the review about this effect?
Like DXO Mark reviews are infallible, they are as subjective as they come with many articles pointing out how flawed their methodology is. I also seem to remember that EISA decided DXOMark couldn't be used as an objective measure os sensor performance due to the exact reason. At the end of the day people will always err on the side of reviews that tend to agree with their own view point or experiences they are all subjective..
Jogger: Really makes the $1600 Panasonic "Leica" 42.5/1.2 look even less appealing and more of a rip-off. Is it $600 better than the Fuji?
so based on what Jogger says, 85mm (or equivalent) can ONLY be used for portraits in studios (fidgety models are ok) take heed people !!
Ben Stonewall: Lytro is also researching a "multiverse" imaging device using a tertiary subspace manifold and tetrion scanning technology to capture images that are not ordinarily visible in our "phase" of space-time.Small fuzzy pictures of the Emperor's New Clothes are expected on DPR any space-time soon.Why are these charlatans still in business?
but thats a pretty meaningless comment, what do you mean deliberately opaque ? what missing information ?