Iliah Borg

Iliah Borg

Lives in United States AK, United States
Has a website at http://www.libraw.org/
Joined on Nov 11, 2002

Comments

Total: 66, showing: 1 – 20
« First‹ Previous1234Next ›Last »
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

You figured wrong. Those who are interested in history can add 2 and 2 easily, and they did.

Direct link | Posted on May 28, 2015 at 03:45 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

> A program MUST be able to ignore invalid, non-conforming files WITHOUT causing it to crash

Yes. But it is not always possible. After running synthetic tests you can see pretty much any program can crash. A simple counter-measure is to provide camera file samples to software developers in a timely manner.

> projecting your own dislike for Leica
Can't be further from truth, also for historical reasons.

Direct link | Posted on May 28, 2015 at 01:58 UTC
In reply to:

cdembrey: If Leica had it's own Raw format, the problem would be solved. Simple as that.

The kidz in former Eastern Block countries write the best viruses, get a team from east Germany to write a Leica Raw file. An exclusive camera deserves an exclusive Raw.

@graybalanced :
> If more cameras would save directly to DNG, we wouldn't have to wait for raw format updates
That's a myth. DNG is a container that allows for private undisclosed tags, and Leica, for example, use such private non-documented tags.

We do need more and better raw formats. Raw formats progress with the progress of cameras and sensors, and the progress of understanding of the parameters needed for accurate conversions.

Direct link | Posted on May 27, 2015 at 17:06 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

@Mark Alan Thomas:
Seriously, I do not mind :))))
I saw many people who do not realize how often we are to cover for somebody. Apple releasing a patch does not mean Leica is clean. It does not mean Apple solved their problem, too.
I saw many folks who hate some company. Most of the cases it is jealousy. They have nothing better to do with their lives, probably.

Direct link | Posted on May 27, 2015 at 07:31 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

@Mark Alan Thomas :
Sure you picked it from tech support :))))

Direct link | Posted on May 27, 2015 at 06:14 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

@Mark Alan Thomas :
So, if some invalidly formatted or just new raw file does not play nice with Lightroom, and the samples were not provided ahead of camera release, is it Adobe to be blamed, squarely?

Direct link | Posted on May 27, 2015 at 05:53 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

@SSantana75 :
> a) Leica SHOULD create RAW files which follow standard specifications otherwise they can't expect programs to open their files. b) Apple MUST ensure their programs don't crash when faced with non-conforming files, plain and simple.

That is exactly what I'm saying all along. Strange you missed it.

While Mr.Thomas wants to put blame squarely at Apple.

> On the other hand had Leica done their work correctly Apple's software would still crash when faced with an unknown RAW file

No. Only when accounting certain unknown files. Same as, say, Adobe Bridge.

> Don't bother responding as I won't.

Well, you don't tell others what to do or not to do, do you?

Direct link | Posted on May 27, 2015 at 04:23 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

No, that solves nothing. The issues are many. Leica not following EXIF specs. Leica not sending files and cameras to Apple. Leica not being transparent and documenting the format. Apple crash because they do not reject unknown and damaged files.

Direct link | Posted on May 26, 2015 at 22:05 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

You got into your own trap. Linear Raw in monochrome (as in not Bayer) is monochrome Linear Raw, and if special support is needed for 246, it means it is Leica not following the specifications.

Direct link | Posted on May 26, 2015 at 21:25 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

@Mark Alan Thomas :
Not in a bit relevant. Monochrom (btw, you even do not spell it, 2 times in one message) is supported officially by Apple since Aug 22, 2013. Sad you do not know what you are talking about, being just biased.

Direct link | Posted on May 26, 2015 at 20:05 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

@Mark Alan Thomas :
How relevant is Linear Raw here? Is the previous Monochrom still unsupported? :)
Adding camera support is different from adding format support. Say, for an unsupported Nikon NEF which follows EXIF design rules Adobe Bridge can't even show a thumbnail, and can't write an XMP. It just does not know the camera, and thus prevents a possible crash by not even trying to open the file.

Direct link | Posted on May 26, 2015 at 19:33 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

@Mark Alan Thomas :
I already demonstrated that Leica are ignoring certain EXIF design rules.
Please point out exactly what part of DNG specs Apple do not support with their current software.

Direct link | Posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:31 UTC
In reply to:

LucaPCP: This is squarely Apple's fault, for two reasons.

1. As other apps can open files fine, the folks at Apple likely never tested how their software would behave on monochromatic DNGs.

2. That a whole library becomes un-openable because of a few files that cannot be read due to bugs shows quite poor software design. The files should simply be rejected if the decoder cannot open them properly.

Apple are indeed guilty of the crashes in their software. But to put all the blame on Apple is not a balanced view of the issue.

First, your number 1. is squarely wrong; previous versions opened "monochromatic" DNGs just fine, and Apple tested that.

Second, did Leica provided sample DNG files to Apple before the Apple software release deadline?

Third, why Leica are in violation of EXIF rules and they do nothing about it for several years already?

Direct link | Posted on May 25, 2015 at 19:03 UTC
In reply to:

InTheMist: Kind of a major screw-up, Apple!

@InTheMist :
Things happen. We do try to avoid crashes, we insert additional data sanity checks (those affect speed in a negative way), we try to address the problems in the matter of hours after they are discovered (see, for example, http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55797944 ), we employ methods like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzz_testing . Still, all possible situations can't be covered. Here is an example http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-cc-images-got-corrupted-after-doing-meta-data-update
That is why as a photographer I ask for files that conform to the standards and specifications, including those out of camera files. I think it is in our best interest to have error- and trouble-free files form our cameras, and fully documented, including bugs, too.

Direct link | Posted on May 16, 2015 at 09:28 UTC
In reply to:

InTheMist: Kind of a major screw-up, Apple!

@Dr_Jon :
Does the problem affect previous Monochrom? Why after I repaired a file by hand it stopped causing problems? OK, maybe I was lucky, and suppose the issue is in something else. The question remains: why Leica deviates from EXIF/DNG standard, recording a tag with zero content length but having 80 in the length field? If one cares about data integrity and preservation, how good as that?

Direct link | Posted on May 16, 2015 at 09:20 UTC
In reply to:

InTheMist: Kind of a major screw-up, Apple!

@Mark Alan Thomas :
That is not how you interpreted it when you typed "It’s up to the third party to fully support the latest, openly documented, DNG spec." And quite frankly you were right, nothing in Leica statement hints to Leica problem. On the contrary, they are saying "It is anticipated that Apple will have this resolved in the next update for 'Photos'." The issue is this: particular software can be patched, but the malformed files will stay malformed and may continue to cause troubles. I do not see Leica offering a free utility to repair their files, while any developer taking that Leica DNG conform to the "openly documented, DNG spec." may run into the same problem, and who knows what havoc it can create in our image archives. I tried my best to explain what I see as an honest, fair, transparent, and productive approach to the problems like this. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Direct link | Posted on May 16, 2015 at 09:15 UTC
In reply to:

falconeyes: The real message here is that a crash of the Photos app can corrupt the library.

That should never happen with a well designed app (hint: transactional safety).

I think that's a real advantage with LR: not only did I never see a corrupted library after a LR crash (I've seen quite a few after fresh major releases). But because it is an SQLite database file, it could be repaired using SQLite tools. And then, LR really cares to keep backups of that file (of course, Time Machine does the same).

To understand how serious this is: Just imagine an application crash would leave your file system emptied ...

It is hard to accept Apple released such a poorly designed piece of software. Apple seems to have changed a lot recently.

@Horshack : well, are we saying Leica should continue recording exifs that cause problems, and not openly publishing how to parse their files that contain errors? I do not think so.

Direct link | Posted on May 15, 2015 at 23:56 UTC
In reply to:

joe6pack: Now hackers all over the world is going to exploit this. I suspect this issue is not limited to DNG file. It could be .ARW, .CRW or even .JPG as long as the metadata in question is malformed. Watch out!

Been done https://isc.sans.edu/forums/diary/JPEG+exploit+toolkit+JPEG+Hacktool+GDIScan+Tool+In+search+of+the+Botnet+Lessons+learned/318/

Direct link | Posted on May 15, 2015 at 23:51 UTC
In reply to:

falconeyes: The real message here is that a crash of the Photos app can corrupt the library.

That should never happen with a well designed app (hint: transactional safety).

I think that's a real advantage with LR: not only did I never see a corrupted library after a LR crash (I've seen quite a few after fresh major releases). But because it is an SQLite database file, it could be repaired using SQLite tools. And then, LR really cares to keep backups of that file (of course, Time Machine does the same).

To understand how serious this is: Just imagine an application crash would leave your file system emptied ...

It is hard to accept Apple released such a poorly designed piece of software. Apple seems to have changed a lot recently.

@falconeyes :
Actually, I see things like http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/afl/ more helpful. A file may be intentionally malformed, or malformed as a result of broken transfer, and for other reasons, too.
What we expect from manufacturers I guess is not to add to chaos.

Direct link | Posted on May 15, 2015 at 23:48 UTC
In reply to:

falconeyes: The real message here is that a crash of the Photos app can corrupt the library.

That should never happen with a well designed app (hint: transactional safety).

I think that's a real advantage with LR: not only did I never see a corrupted library after a LR crash (I've seen quite a few after fresh major releases). But because it is an SQLite database file, it could be repaired using SQLite tools. And then, LR really cares to keep backups of that file (of course, Time Machine does the same).

To understand how serious this is: Just imagine an application crash would leave your file system emptied ...

It is hard to accept Apple released such a poorly designed piece of software. Apple seems to have changed a lot recently.

@Horshack : yes, very much diplomatically, "It is anticipated that Apple will have this resolved in the next update for 'Photos'.". Not a word Leica themselves will start writing exifs that do not trigger

Tag 0x927c Warning = [minor] Possibly incorrect maker notes offsets (fix by -126?)

Tag 0x0302 Warning: Attempted dump outside data (80 bytes specified, but only 0 available)

Direct link | Posted on May 15, 2015 at 23:40 UTC
Total: 66, showing: 1 – 20
« First‹ Previous1234Next ›Last »