coolowski: That GX80 makes Sony's pricing look ridiculous
Sony is basically pulling a Canikon as far as APS-C E mount lenses are concerned... Kind of ironic. That being said, I'm still jealous E mount has a $350 18mm f2 UWA prime. :p Probably the only APS-C mirrorless that I wish M4/3 had an equivalent for, and I don't see it happening soon.
webrunner5: Wow, looks pretty darn impressive, and the price is not bad either.
Would have been nice at 20mp but can't have everything.
That's somewhat true, but then why call it GX85 in some markets when GX80 was more logical? GX85 sounds better/newer/etc, could be the grey market dashing thing mentioned elsewhere but why now?
There's also the fact that it's coming out within 6 months of the GX8, it didn't get developed in six month's time, newer lower end models tend to lap older higher end ones when there's more of an offset in between.
Here they were already working on a solution for a downside on the flagship but decided to finalize and ship it without it only to introduce it on the mid tier model. I'm not faulting it, better that than holding if for another year+, but still.
Jonathan F/2: Camera. Of. The. Year. Good job Panasonic!
It might very well be the mid range value play of the year tho, but the year's still young so who knows. Sony will surely drop something under the a6300, etc. The GX85 definitely looks a lot more complete and aggressively priced than the G7 or E-M10 II, and even gives the flagships within the system a run...
No weather sealing, smaller EVF, slower max shutter, that's a pretty small list of drawbacks. There might be more, but it looks like one of Panasonic's best attempts yet to not hold anything back. It's really not like them to actually debut new tech (IBIS, shutter) on a mid range model, the fact that it also breaks their naming convention says something.
Jorginho: And so m43s just keeps developping and developping. These are not huge steps, but the stabilsed video in 4K is a very welcome and huge step for videographers. Shuttershock: I guess it is true it happens but on my GH4 it is veyr rare.
This also holds a lot of promise for the GH5. 20 MP, 5 axis stabilsation in video, no shuttershockI bet that Leica EVF (or something similar) will be in it. And with 5 axis something like HiRES might be on the drawingboard but I guess not in the GH5.
I wonder how well this all works with the 100-400 Panaleica (stabilisation)...
GX80/85: a very nice addition to the ever growing familly.
Ehh, for most shooters APS-C is still the major threat, unless we start seeing a lot more specialized 1" compacts like that Nikon DL with the ultrawide lens, which I guess is bound to happen but the M4/3 lens catalog and choice of bodies keeps getting more and more varied.
Point is, either you want all three variety an ILC affords (so you pick between M4/3, E mount, Fuji X, etc), or you want a simpler setup (so you go got for a 1" with a fixed lens)... Now, if 1" fixed lens cameras got a LOT cheaper, that story would change.
If they were cheap enough it might make more sense to have 2-3 than to have a small M4/3 system, at least for some. Prices keep creeping up tho, G7x is as cheap as it's gotten. I don't think the average consumer is even remotely aware of them, or M4/3 for that matter.
That's really a shame, and a failing of all the big players, because once you sit someone down and explain to them how $500 on a new camera how much much further towards better photos than $500 on a new phone, they actually get it (at least if remotely interested in photography).
dialstatic: "The Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 (known as the GX80 outside of North America)"
This US versus non-US naming of cameras is silly enough in general, but this is downright confusing. Regular consumers may think that the GX85 is a newer camera as it seems to follows the convention of higher model numbers for consecutive generations.
Ehh, doubt it, I think it's probably more of a marketing thing. GX7 mk II in Japan? Clearly the GX7 brand carried more weight there. GX80 made the most sense (at least after deciding to start using double digit numbers, which they probably should've done earlier, with the GMs)...
GX85 is just a way of making it not seem like 'GX8 lite' in the (sort of oblivious) U.S. market, which is pretty fair given all the improvements. Can't wait for the GM60 and GM6... :p Hell they could've named the GF7 the GM50 or GM10 instead, that's kinda what it was. Might simplify their lineup a bit, maybe...
Having 5 different discrete lines (GF, GM, G, GX, and GH) and then going into sub model lines within them is gonna get all kinds of confusing, specially when models like the GX85 & GF7 start blurring the lines. The GX85 clearly lives in the same space as the G line, just shaped differently, and there's all kinds of crossover between price points and features between an older GM1 & a newer GF.
AdamT: 16Mp .............. :(
If they`re going to use a new sensor (the 20Mp one in this case) , use it across the range like DSLR makers do instead of hanging on to old sensors . Kinda expected it in the G7 but not in this model ..
So a grown up GM5 then- nice option, probably a sweet spot but IMO needed that 20Mp sensor
I don't know... You'd think if they were redesigning a new high performance shutter mechanism they'd aim pretty high, I wouldn't put it past them to have artificially limited it to 1/4000 only to enable 1/8000 with the same electromag motor in a future body. Glass half empty outlook I guess... I do hope their promises about the mechanism hold true tho, it'll fix what has become a sore point for Panasonic bodies.
Frankly I smell patent issues tho, as to why they went this route instead of a simpler (and potentially more effective) EFC... Who knows tho, hopefully it's tested in depth sooner rather than later. I don't buy they sensor readout speed excuse tho, old sensors on 4-5 year old NEX bodies could do EFC, the 16MP one on the E-M5 II can, and so can the GM1's, I don't think DPR bought that excuse either.
TheClueless: The 12-32 as standard? That's going to hold it back with a 16MP sensor...
...and shutter shock or not, I love the sound of the shutter on the GX8 :p
If you wanna be pedantic, sure; by the more common and agreed upon definition, not so much. Oly's 12-50 is also underwhelming (the next cheapest path to 12mm, amongst zooms anyway, there's also the manual Samyang prime), which still makes the 12-32 somewhat unique.
Flashback: M4/3 boasts a broad selection of bodies, complemented with a beautiful selection of lenses.
It just requires a step up in sensor technology, to stop the FF juggernaut.
Well, given the way the market as a whole has behaved, i think the entire ILC market could use better PR and advertising... But yeah, Oly/Panasonic are specially bad at it, at least in the US. I've seen some brilliant Panasonic ads online (published online only or meant for the EUR/Asia market), like the ones pitting a G body with an f2.8 zoom directly against a DSLR with kit zoom... Olympus at least seems to have more retail space in the few B&M shops left tho.
Sony is doing better than either but not by a whole lot, they've always maintained a presence in stores like Best Buy tho, and with Samsung calling it quits they'll probably double down on there and big box stores (Samsung displays were actually bigger than Sony's at some Best Buys, tho integrated into the mobile section). I always thought Samsung was the marketing dark horse, they basically took over the smartphone would largely on the back of branding and marketing...
Never did put the same effort into cameras tho, i don't think anyone has, even Canikon. The average buyer still has no idea why he should want a camera over a phone except maybe for zoom, has no idea there are compact 1" P&S or APS-C/M4/3 ILCs, etc etc.
Yeah... No. Can you be more specific than that tho? Stopped down it'll outresolve the sensor, please don't bring in DxO numbers w/o context out an understanding of them, then you'll really live up to that name. The 12-32 is probably a better compromise than most of the other mirrorless pancake zooms (including Sony's and Panasonic's previous effort).
BostonC: Shutter shock measurement: https://www.ephotozine.com/articles/panasonic-lumix-gx80-review-29143/images/highres-panasonic-lumix-gx80-shutter-unit_1459761077.jpg The shutter sound is so quiet. Amazing improvement!
Oh boy, now we're down to ad hominem attacks, yet I'M the one incapable of rational discussion. If the background noise in that clip doesn't interfere with the rest of the audio for you all I can conclude is you must not be listening on any sort of decent gear or we hear very very differently.
Anyway, why would I be threatened... by a camera? lol I've bought myself two different Panasonic bodies over the last two years, I bought and gifted a third (not because I didn't like it, was bought as a gift), and I bought an Oly late last year.
If I like the GX85 enough I'll just buy that too, not really following the logic of your take of my personal feelings here Dr Phil. Not sure why you're so bent out of shape over my comment or the way I see things differently. Like I said, learn to embrace debate and a difference of opinion, it's a good thing.
At least my lengthy paragraphs include line breaks (and actual paragraphs), something yours desperately need. ;) Early early morning in Puerto Rico btw, and again, I'm not TRYING to be abrasive at all. If it came off that way I'll blame it on lack of coffee, stand by what I said tho.
tkbslc: I can't believe they kept the !@#$ 16:9 EVF on another 4:3 aspect camera.
Uhh, no, I'd rather my EVF favor stills... They put a tilt screen on it after all. (which I prefer, but most videographers wouldn't) 16:9 EVF was essentially their cut corner.
Joel Halbert: In section 5: "Like the GX8, the GX85 includes 3-axis in-body image stabilization and a Dual IS system which adds two extra axes if you use a lens with built-in stabilization."
This seems directly to contradict the press-release (and the DPR summary just before it), which says that the In-Body system is 5-axis even before you add the O.I.S. tandem assistance:"Combining an O.I.S.(Optical Image Stabilizer, 2-axis) and a B.I.S.(Body Image Stabilizer, 5-axis)..."
It seems like this needs to be clarified, and possibly section 5's blurb should be re-written. But thanks for getting the three features out so fast.
Does IBIS actually work with video even without an OIS lens? The press release isn't entirely clear on that IMO, it says Dual IS does but that requires an OIS lens of course and they could be referring to OIS+EIS rather than OIS+IBIS... Seems other people read it differently. Full on IBIS WITH video is a big deal for anyone shooting mostly primes, and something Panasonic hasn't done before, hence why I ask.
The EVF and even the 1/4000 max shutter would bother me more (tho they're small corners to cut in light of everything else they got right), the jump to 20MP was nothing to write home about.
Why? It's one of the better kit lenses, a bit more distortion at 12mm is probably it's only fault apart from the range... But the size and the fact that it actually goes to 12mm also make it unique compared to other kit lenses... It's probably worth $100 easy whereas many kit lenses would barely fetch that second hand. I think it's a solid choice...
Raist3d: So some questions- did they allow exposure compensation in manual mode with auto ISO?
And is this the same old m4/3rds sensor or a new 16MP sensor?
/facepalm IF you concede Auto ISO is useful in manual, i don't see why you would possibly be against also having exposure compensation. Frankly the comment about why other companies do it is downright condescending, specially when you're missing some obvious usage cases.
Say you're using auto ISO in manual, say you disagree with the camera's metering and it's selected 6400 (no metering system is flawless)... NOW, would you rather spin a dial all the way from Auto to 3200 (Auto-200-400-800-1600-3200) or would you rather spin an exposure compensation dial one position and get what you want?
It's really that simple, and there's usage cases or shooting scenarios where you could find yourself in a situation like that over and over and over. (situations where lighting changes often etc) Hell, it doesn't even have to be exp compensation per se, tho that's the most conventional and easily understood solution IMO...
They could instead shift the position of Auto in the ISO selection sequence so that it always appears right before or after the currently selected ISO, that would work just as well but it's essentially the same thing and probably more work for their firmware developers.
No I'm not trolling, don't be threatened by a counter point or difference of opinion buddy, embrace debate. DPR's clip had a lot of background noise going on and they don't really compare it with anything, based off that sole clip a very objective person could MAYBE conclude it's indeed quiet... But to jump from that to claiming that it's quieter than X, Y, or Z; well, that'd just be speculation at best or useless hype at worst. I'm sorry if my comments are bothersome, I assure you they're not meant to be (and some of my comments further down are more recent than those further up btw).
aliasfox: I was hoping this could work as a relatively inexpensive rangefinder-style camera to upgrade from my E-PM2, but in addition to a built in EVF and DFD autofocus, I was hoping to be able to dabble in video - hence a Panasonic body. A shame there's no microphone port, though I guess I could consider off-camera audio recording.
The new shutter mechanism is interesting, and I really look forward to seeing the shutter shock testing to see if this solves the issue - not that I've experienced much of it personally, but Panny definitely could use a PR win in this area.
Even without a mic port, a no-shutter-shock body that's a bit smaller than a GX7 might still be of interest as an upgrade for my girlfriend's GF3 - I alwys thought the GM shutter was a bit limiting. It would be an even bigger plus if the GX85 used the same batteries as the older GF3 (and I believe the GX7 battery is the same size?).
Tricky price though, as used GX7s float around $350, and Sony's practically dumping the A6000.
Also, you don't really need to mitigate shutter shock at high shutter speeds because they're WELL beyond the range of shutter speeds that cause the kind of vibration and reverb interaction that induces shutter shock... Shutter shock tends to happen at lower shutter speeds. It's possible their electromag shutter does better in fringe cases tho, like shutter shock outside the usual range with really long lenses (where you're even more likely to use fast shutter speeds to freeze motion).
Any time I click it I just get a blank page with ePhotozine's URL in the top left corner... I'm on mobile, might be a combination of that and/or them protecting their content from direct outside linking. You're pretty naive if you think a class action suit over vague marketing claims would actually gain much traction tho, no offense.
Panasonic themselves cautiously told DPR the electromag shutter will largely mitigate but not eliminate shutter shock. Frankly I think it's an over engineered solution and I don't buy the sensor readout excuse (neither does DPR if you read between the lines), we've had EFCs for years on other bodies/systems with much older sensors.
My guess is they can't/won't do EFC for some unknown outside reason (patents maybe?). There's no tangible delay with the E-M5 II's EFC or most other EFC implementations on other systems. I think you're getting it mixed up with the actual delay of the EFC Oly hacked on older bodies (and E-M10 II) where the first mech curtain still fired and a delay followed it.
Overall an EFC is a very simple and very elegant solution to SS, it's quite possible Panasonic's electromag shutter might have other advantages tho... Could be it behaves better with really long lenses (where shutter cocking or even movement could induce blur even before the shutter actually closes or shocks), could be it's really quieter...
You're claiming it's quieter than everything based on one DPR clip those sounds like it was shot in the middle of a windy bay tho, it remains to be seen.
Yeah I saw it, I don't see how a PR slide allowed him to actually hear it tho, he was claiming it's quieter than X or Z in other posts... And even Panasonic was rather cautious with it's claims.
It almost seems like they can't go with an EFC for some reason (pride? patent issues?), the electromag solution is far more complex and I don't buy that sensor readout excuse.
We've had EFC on other bodies for years now with much older sensors and much slower readout speeds (old NEXs had it!), even DPR carefully wrote that bit and distanced themselves from said claim by clearly stating "Panasonic told us"...
Impulses: No wonder they're calling it the GX85 stateside (as if to subtly insinuate it isn't merely a stripped down GX8)... They've added a whole bunch of unexpected improvements, either Panasonic works faster than I would imagine or the GX8 was somewhat rushed out to market (should've had this new shutter, at least). Development of this model HAD to overlap to some extent with that of the GX8 IMO, it didn't spring out of thin air in 6 month's time.
The new shutter mechanism and improved IBIS so soon after the GX8 are a total surprise, and also things Panasonic would typically relegate to a higher end flagship body ($1,000+)... Even smaller things like USB charging and the additional bracketing modes are more than I'd expect from an $800 Panasonic kit (w/the 12-32 no less). Had this been announced a little sooner I might've stuck with Panasonic (tho my GM1 still sees heavy use, so I didn't totally jump ship).
I don't really regret getting an E-M5 II towards the end of last year (still got weather sealing and a larger EVF, amongst other things, on a cheaper body - $700 at the time, CAD/USD helped), but I think I'd be totally kicking myself had I opted for the GX8 then. Even now the GX85 tempts me, finally there's another rangefinder style M4/3 body with a tilt screen... I think I regret losing that on the OM-D more than anything.
Other M4/3 models have taken steps to correct it tho, even if Oly's EFC implementation wasn't always elegant (they kinda hacked it on every model but the E-M5 II, first curtain still fired followed by a delay). Is it a deal breaker that makes a camera useless? No. But it sure is a hassle I don't/shouldn't have to deal with and they ignored it longer than they should've.