Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB

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Greg lamont
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Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
3 months ago

I purchased the D610 and previously had the D7000 and I cannot remember which setting I had the 7000 set up with for the Color Space menu item:
SRGB or Adobe RGB.
I use Mac Aperture and Photo Elements 12.
I rarely print prints anymore, but I do have a color print Photo copier ( HP All in One).

Preferences anyone?
Greg

ric82
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

Hello

If your work is for web only, SRGB is right

But in all cases i prefer to use Adobe RGB, better in tons variations.

You have always possibility to change it in SRGB occasionnaly if necessary with NX2 or PP etc...better for printing too ...if printer is a good one

To go a step ahead, i prefer the use of 14 bits with Adobe RGB, so all the tons are better detailed, in the shadows you will see more details, and the tonal curve is larger.

just my appreciation   

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DigitalPhilosopher
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to ric82, 3 months ago

This is one of the major misunderstandings. God knows where it began - I'll blame Ken Rockwell

Don't begin from the camera, follow the reverse path: Will it be printed or viewed on a screen? If on screen, use sRGB, end of story.

If printed, you must first make sure Adobe RGB will be used for the printing process (not a given). Then, you must have a very good monitor, that can show the subtle differences of the Adobe RGB space. Then, you must calibrate it properly. Then, your editing must be in Adobe RGB. Then your camera must be set in Adobe RGB

Hope you're not confused with the 'thens' - like I said, picture it as the reverse path.

Bottom line: Use sRGB and you're done for most cases. Even pro labs tend to use sRGB today, because most consumer images sent to them are saved as sRGB

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Robin Casady
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

Greg lamont wrote:

I purchased the D610 and previously had the D7000 and I cannot remember which setting I had the 7000 set up with for the Color Space menu item:
SRGB or Adobe RGB.
I use Mac Aperture and Photo Elements 12.
I rarely print prints anymore, but I do have a color print Photo copier ( HP All in One).

Preferences anyone?
Greg

If shooting JPGE for the web, or computer viewing only and no adjustments are to be made, use sRGB.

If shooting RAW, the camera setting only matters if you are using Nikon software. Set the color space in the software. I tend to believe the pundits who say use ProPhoto then convert to the appropriate color space during output. It would be sRGB for the web and some printing services. AdobeRGB for some printers.

There is a fair amount of controversy over this issue. Some are adamant that you should edit in the color space of the output. Others just as firm that you should edit in a larger space and convert for output.

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DigitalPhilosopher
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to Robin Casady, 3 months ago

Robin Casady wrote:

Some are adamant that you should edit in the color space of the output. Others just as firm that you should edit in a larger space and convert for output.

If you edit in the color space of the output, then what you see is what you get, provided the monitor is calibrated and the space remains the same throughout the process (that's the whole idea of a color space). If you edit in a space and then convert it into something else, the editing program essentially throws away information you are not aware of. I don't see why someone should follow this path. It's like editing in 16-bit while you're aware you'll have to convert to an 8-bit jpeg afterwards. Some information will have to be thrown away, and at least I prefer to be in control of what's happening, rather than allowing the program to do that.

In any case, the Adobe RGB space offers more flexible greens. The whole trouble would not be worth it for portrait or urban photos anyway.

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Fogsville
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

They are simply color spaces.  Pick your poison depending on your needs (and device dependent workflow.)  http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sRGB-AdobeRGB1998.htm

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Simon Garrett
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Is your monitor calibrated and profiled?
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

Greg lamont wrote:

I purchased the D610 and previously had the D7000 and I cannot remember which setting I had the 7000 set up with for the Color Space menu item:
SRGB or Adobe RGB.
I use Mac Aperture and Photo Elements 12.
I rarely print prints anymore, but I do have a color print Photo copier ( HP All in One).

Preferences anyone?
Greg

Is your monitor calibrated and profiled? I mean with a hardware colorimiter like a ColorMunki or Spyder.

If not: ALWAYS use sRGB, or you are virtually certain to get false colour.

If - and only if - your monitor is hardware calibrated and profiled, and you use only colour-managed software, then you might consider Adobe RGB for the reasons others have said.  Better still: use raw.

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Simon Garrett
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to DigitalPhilosopher, 3 months ago

DigitalPhilosopher wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Some are adamant that you should edit in the color space of the output. Others just as firm that you should edit in a larger space and convert for output.

If you edit in the color space of the output, then what you see is what you get, provided the monitor is calibrated and the space remains the same throughout the process (that's the whole idea of a color space). If you edit in a space and then convert it into something else, the editing program essentially throws away information you are not aware of.

I don't think this is right. It really doesn't matter what you use for your working space.

When you say "provided ... the space remains the same throughout the process (that's the whole idea of a color space)" I don't know what you mean.  The whole point of colour management is that the colour space doesn't have to remain the same throughout the process.  Colour management ensures that the colour space is converted as and when necessary.

Consider Lightroom for example.  Images can be stored in any colour space (or as raw).  Images are converted to ProPhoto RGB with linear tone response curve (TRC) for editing, to ProPhoto RGB with sRGB's TRC for the histogram display, to Adobe RGB for previews, to the monitor's colour space for display, to the printer's colour space for printing, and to any colour space you specify for export.  All those conversions don't hurt Lightroom!

I don't see why someone should follow this path. It's like editing in 16-bit while you're aware you'll have to convert to an 8-bit jpeg afterwards. Some information will have to be thrown away, and at least I prefer to be in control of what's happening, rather than allowing the program to do that.

Now I really do disagree with this! Editing in 16 bit is more accurate. You get rounding errors on every calculation the editor makes, and those errors are substantially lower if you use 16 bits.

In many cases the extra errors of 8 bits are small, but why take the chance? You're much more in control if you do that conversion at the end. Even if you shoot jpeg, where the image has already been crunched down to 8 bits, processing in 16 bits is more accurate.

In any case, the Adobe RGB space offers more flexible greens. The whole trouble would not be worth it for portrait or urban photos anyway.

Provided you have a wide-gamut monitor (colour managed) and a printer capable of printing wider than sRGB greens then I do agree with that.  However, I don't explicitly use Adobe RGB - I use raw and process in ProPhoto RGB.

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DigitalPhilosopher
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to Simon Garrett, 3 months ago

Simon Garrett wrote:

I don't think this is right. It really doesn't matter what you use for your working space.

When you say "provided ... the space remains the same throughout the process (that's the whole idea of a color space)" I don't know what you mean. The whole point of colour management is that the colour space doesn't have to remain the same throughout the process. Colour management ensures that the colour space is converted as and when necessary.

That's not my understanding of color spaces . I do admit however our disagreement might be due to different methodologies. For instance, I really want to see the changes I'm doing as they happen - and this is the reason I don't edit on 16-bit if I plan to save as 8-bit. I really don't want to be surprised by any conversions.

To simplify things, let's assume the Adobe RGB space can "hold" 100 liters of green variations, while the sRGB only 70. If you edit on Adobe RGB and then you have to save as sRGB, Photoshop (or whatever other program) will have to throw away 30 liters. True or not?

The same with the 8-bit versus 16-bit. What's the point of editing something that will no longer look the same once you hit the 'save' button?

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Simon Garrett
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to DigitalPhilosopher, 3 months ago

DigitalPhilosopher wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

I don't think this is right. It really doesn't matter what you use for your working space.

When you say "provided ... the space remains the same throughout the process (that's the whole idea of a color space)" I don't know what you mean. The whole point of colour management is that the colour space doesn't have to remain the same throughout the process. Colour management ensures that the colour space is converted as and when necessary.

That's not my understanding of color spaces . I do admit however our disagreement might be due to different methodologies. For instance, I really want to see the changes I'm doing as they happen - and this is the reason I don't edit on 16-bit if I plan to save as 8-bit. I really don't want to be surprised by any conversions.

I would use soft proofing for that. Otherwise you won't see the exact colours of the target colour space unless your monitor exactly matches that colour space, which is unlikely.

To simplify things, let's assume the Adobe RGB space can "hold" 100 liters of green variations, while the sRGB only 70. If you edit on Adobe RGB and then you have to save as sRGB, Photoshop (or whatever other program) will have to throw away 30 liters. True or not?

Yes, but IMHO better to do the calculations in the wider colour space, to avoid unintentional clipping before the final conversion to the narrower colour space.

The same with the 8-bit versus 16-bit. What's the point of editing something that will no longer look the same once you hit the 'save' button?

I don't think that's right.

Consider this analogy.  Suppose you are doing financial calculations, and at the end you are going to round off to the nearest $.  You still want to do calculations to the nearest cent - or even fraction of a cent.  If you do all calculations in $$s and ignore any fractions, you may get rounding errors in calculations that may mean the end result isn't even accurate to the nearest $.

Same thing with image processing.  You may want the end result accurate only to one part in 256 (8 bits) but you may not get even that accuracy unless you do intermediate calculations to a higher precision.

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R Vaquero
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

Simple: always shoot in Adobe RGB mode, it's a wider colour space and the best to process the images.

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Simon Garrett
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Provided you use full colour management
In reply to R Vaquero, 3 months ago

R Vaquero wrote:

Simple: always shoot in Adobe RGB mode, it's a wider colour space and the best to process the images.

...provided your monitor is calibrated and profiled (with a hardware colorimiter) that is, and you are using entirely colour-manged software, or you are virtually certain to get the wrong colour with Adobe RGB images.

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DigitalPhilosopher
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Re: Age old digital camera question: SRGB or Adobe RGB
In reply to Simon Garrett, 3 months ago

Simon Garrett wrote:

I would use soft proofing for that. Otherwise you won't see the exact colours of the target colour space unless your monitor exactly matches that colour space, which is unlikely.

Yes, but IMHO better to do the calculations in the wider colour space, to avoid unintentional clipping before the final conversion to the narrower colour space.

Same thing with image processing. You may want the end result accurate only to one part in 256 (8 bits) but you may not get even that accuracy unless you do intermediate calculations to a higher precision.

I'll have to check my methodologies again - at this point I'm not in a position to either agree or disagree. Thanks for taking the time to provide the info.

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R Vaquero
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Re: Provided you use full colour management
In reply to Simon Garrett, 3 months ago

R Vaquero wrote:

Simple: always shoot in Adobe RGB mode, it's a wider colour space and the best to process the images.

...provided your monitor is calibrated and profiled (with a hardware colorimiter) that is, and you are using entirely colour-manged software, or you are virtually certain to get the wrong colour with Adobe RGB images.

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Simon

Of course, but that's what everybody do for a right processing, don't they?
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Simon Garrett
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Re: Provided you use full colour management
In reply to R Vaquero, 3 months ago

R Vaquero wrote:

R Vaquero wrote:

Simple: always shoot in Adobe RGB mode, it's a wider colour space and the best to process the images.

...provided your monitor is calibrated and profiled (with a hardware colorimiter) that is, and you are using entirely colour-manged software, or you are virtually certain to get the wrong colour with Adobe RGB images.

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Simon

Of course, but that's what everybody do for a right processing, don't they?

Naturally!

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Greg lamont
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Re: Is your monitor calibrated and profiled?
In reply to Simon Garrett, 3 months ago

Simon Garrett wrote:

Is your monitor calibrated and profiled? I mean with a hardware colorimiter like a ColorMunki or Spyder.

If not: ALWAYS use sRGB, or you are virtually certain to get false colour.

If - and only if - your monitor is hardware calibrated and profiled, and you use only colour-managed software, then you might consider Adobe RGB for the reasons others have said. Better still: use raw.

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Simon

My Monitor is not calibrated, it is a 4 year old iMac.

The display in preferences says iMac calibrated.
There are other options,  ANY SUGGESTIONS that I need to change.

Thanks

Greg

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Simon Garrett
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Re: Is your monitor calibrated and profiled?
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

Greg lamont wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

Is your monitor calibrated and profiled? I mean with a hardware colorimiter like a ColorMunki or Spyder.

If not: ALWAYS use sRGB, or you are virtually certain to get false colour.

If - and only if - your monitor is hardware calibrated and profiled, and you use only colour-managed software, then you might consider Adobe RGB for the reasons others have said. Better still: use raw.

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Simon

My Monitor is not calibrated, it is a 4 year old iMac.

The display in preferences says iMac calibrated.
There are other options, ANY SUGGESTIONS that I need to change.

Thanks

Greg

In those circumstances I'd recommend using sRGB.

Here's why: most monitors have a colour space roughly similar to sRGB. That means that without any colour management, the monitor will display sRGB images approximately correctly, and will display images in Adobe RGB wrongly. Adobe RGB images will tend to look pale and under saturated.

To put it another way, without colour management, most colours on the monitor will be inaccurate to a greater or lesser degree, but sRGB colours will be least inaccurate.  Have everything set to sRGB and colours will be as good as you can get without hardware calibration and profiling of the monitor, and use of colour-manged software.

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Greg lamont
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Re: Is your monitor calibrated and profiled?
In reply to Simon Garrett, 3 months ago

Greg Lamont wrote

My Monitor is not calibrated, it is a 4 year old iMac.

The display in preferences says iMac calibrated.
There are other options, ANY SUGGESTIONS that I need to change.

Thanks

Greg

In those circumstances I'd recommend using sRGB.

Here's why: most monitors have a colour space roughly similar to sRGB. That means that without any colour management, the monitor will display sRGB images approximately correctly, and will display images in Adobe RGB wrongly. Adobe RGB images will tend to look pale and under saturated.

To put it another way, without colour management, most colours on the monitor will be inaccurate to a greater or lesser degree, but sRGB colours will be least inaccurate. Have everything set to sRGB and colours will be as good as you can get without hardware calibration and profiling of the monitor, and use of colour-manged software.

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Simon

So are you saying to change the monitor (listed in prefs):
Here are Nikon ones:

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Greg lamont
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Re: Is your monitor calibrated and profiled?
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

So are you saying to change the monitor (listed in prefs):

Here are Nikon ones:

Here are the two for SRGB, they cast a blue tint to the monitor:

Monitor

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Greg lamont
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Re: Is your monitor calibrated and profiled?
In reply to Greg lamont, 3 months ago

Greg lamont wrote:

So are you saying to change the monitor (listed in prefs):

Here are Nikon ones:

Here are the two for SRGB, they cast a blue tint to the monitor:

Monitor

Sorry for the 3 posts to get all the info right,

Here are the remaining options for the monitor display:

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