Poor 810 sales

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
Cliff Fujii
Senior MemberPosts: 2,935Gear list
Like?
Re: In seven years
In reply to chuxter, 4 months ago

For some people a camera costing $2500-3000 is high end.  The Sony A series would fall into the same category as the D810 and the D610 because of the sensor and there should the comparison be made.  To do a mirrorless camera that is as good as a D610 and D810 would also take some effort.  One of the interesting things about the D810 is the OLED overlay in the view finder.  I find it makes taking photos at night much easier as the focus points can be seen at night similar to the D4.  According to the reviews I have read about the Sony A series, it's not quite baked yet.  The slow AF is what plagued the 4/3 cameras.  I'm not sure if Nikon patents on the hybrid sensor is being sold but if it is, that would solve Sony's slow focusing issue.  Of course, if I were Nikon, I would not sell rights to the hybrid design unless I absolutely had to.  The big issue for me is AF Speed and the EVF.  I'm not really happy with EVFs as they are today.  They really need to up the horizontal frequency so there is no tearing or artifacting.  I don't think that would be all that expensive.  They first have to come out with an acceptable body design that is ruggedized for professional use.  Then they would have to improve the EVF and come out with a faster AF design.  Except for the EVF, Nikon is capable of producing such a camera for a reasonable price.  The question is whether they want to.

-- hide signature --

Cliff

 Cliff Fujii's gear list:Cliff Fujii's gear list
Nikon Df Nikon 1 V3 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G ED +47 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
hewhosculpts
Contributing MemberPosts: 815Gear list
Like?
Re: Poor 810 sales
In reply to jadot, 4 months ago

jadot wrote:

Thom Hogan suggests that Nikon aren't selling out of D810s because of the workflow support etc.

He might have a point, and his numbers might be right but if he stopped whining on about Nikon's management of this and that for a minute he might be able to see what's right there in front of us all.

A lot of people figured out that they didn't need a D800. A couple of years later, those Nikon users have realised that justifying the expense of regularly 'upgrading' for the sake of it is getting harder to swallow. Technically speaking the D810 is probably up there with best DSLRs on the market today, but it's also easier to decide not to jump into the next iteration of camera when the one you've already got is 99% going to continue to hit the high notes.

Also, a lot of people have moved from DSLRs to mirror-less Systems, specifically Fuji. Why? Because they're much improved and a lot has changed in this market since the D800 was released. It's liberated a lot of photographers I know. People who used to be devoted Nikon or Canon photographers have in some numbers moved on, un phased, un excited, and unimpressed that there is a new DSLR to blow another 3k on.

it may not be the whole story, but there has been a seismic shift in the pro-sumer and pro markets, particularly the weddings and lifestyle end of things, and that shift has been towards smaller, lighter, and very capable CSCs.

Personally, I'd love a D810, but I don't need one any more. It would be an expensive toy, and my cameras really have to earn their keep. It might be worth hiring one for the studio once in a while, but not a regular thing.

2 years ago I would have bought one on release but I'll pass on this today because I have better options for the kind of photography I do in 2014.

I'm not the only one.

-- hide signature --

examples of my photography at www.alexanderleaman.co.uk

Edited by moderator

At the moment I suspect you are speculating on the sales numbers... and even if D810 is not selling as well as the combined D800 and D800E initial sales, I suspect that it is because the D810 is basically a D800Es and do the "s" versions ever sell as well as the original????

Note, I agree the CNX-2 thing has been a disaster for the CNX-2 users...

 hewhosculpts's gear list:hewhosculpts's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D ED-IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm f/4G ED VR Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/4G ED VR
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David314
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,719
Like?
live view is mirrorless
In reply to jcvjcvjcvjcv, 4 months ago

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:

David314 wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:

Isn't the whole point about mirror-less the weight and size decrease while maintaining the less changeability?

But once you do use that, and have multiple lenses; the weight difference over the entire kit isn't that much for a decent pentaprism and mirror...

without a mirror you get, no mirror shake

For that you have the option to move mirror separately. At least on my D300. For most shots it's a non-issue

but when the mirror is up, you can't see anything through the viewfinder

it is also a fairly slow process.

you get a viewfinder decoupled from the sensor size or sensor crop -

A very crappy one

the newer ones are pretty good and they will continue to get better

different magnifications

Live view on DSLRs do the same

yes, it is a mirror less camera in live view - as the mirror is locked up

on sensor focus so no mis alignment issues

no what?

on a SLR, the focus sensors are not on the sensor and or in the optical path from the mirror and the optical view finder

the focus sensors must be aligned with the sensor properly or you get cases where the focus sensor says the image is in focus, and it is not,

that is why for focus fine tuning one method is use the live view contract autofocus to set the focus and tune phase detect (off sensor focus sensor) for the lens to match

in theory, since the focus sensors are not interrupted by the mirror, you could better autofocus

Depends on how you see 'better'

better would be faster and more accurate continuous focus since the focus sensors would not be interrupted by the mirror swinging back to expose the sensor

and no mirror blackout

True, but the same could be done with live view

live view is mirrorless

faster fps

That too *could* be done with an SLR.

the mirror will be a limitation on the speed of the SLR

live histogram

video

the possibility of focus peaking and other augmented parameters - zebras for exposure

exposure simulation

white balance simulation

Isn't that already available with live view on some DSLRs?

yes, when it is mirror less

a simpler camera mechanically -

Yes

throw in an electronic global shutter and the camera would be much simpler to manufacture

have essentially unlimited flash sync without some of the issues at high speed with two curtain shutters

probably cheaper and more reliable

But without a real "live" view and therefore always with a lag between what you see and what's happening in front of you.

at high fps and low delay it will be imperceptible - Olympus already has the option for 240 fps refresh on the display

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ben Stonewall
Junior MemberPosts: 26Gear list
Like?
Re: Poor 810 sales
In reply to jadot, 4 months ago

Thom Hogan suggests that Nikon aren't selling out of D810s because of the workflow support etc.

He might have a point, and his numbers might be right but if he stopped whining on about Nikon's management of this and that for a minute he might be able to see what's right there in front of us all.

A lot of people figured out that they didn't need a D800. A couple of years later, those Nikon users have realised that justifying the expense of regularly 'upgrading' for the sake of it is getting harder to swallow. Technically speaking the D810 is probably up there with best DSLRs on the market today, but it's also easier to decide not to jump into the next iteration of camera when the one you've already got is 99% going to continue to hit the high notes.

Also, a lot of people have moved from DSLRs to mirror-less Systems, specifically Fuji. Why? Because they're much improved and a lot has changed in this market since the D800 was released. It's liberated a lot of photographers I know. People who used to be devoted Nikon or Canon photographers have in some numbers moved on, un phased, un excited, and unimpressed that there is a new DSLR to blow another 3k on.

it may not be the whole story, but there has been a seismic shift in the pro-sumer and pro markets, particularly the weddings and lifestyle end of things, and that shift has been towards smaller, lighter, and very capable CSCs.

Personally, I'd love a D810, but I don't need one any more. It would be an expensive toy, and my cameras really have to earn their keep. It might be worth hiring one for the studio once in a while, but not a regular thing.

2 years ago I would have bought one on release but I'll pass on this today because I have better options for the kind of photography I do in 2014.

I'm not the only one.

-- hide signature --

examples of my photography at www.alexanderleaman.co.uk

Edited by moderator

Hogan is uncanny, I haven't bought one and neither have any of my friends.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jcvjcvjcvjcv
Regular MemberPosts: 316
Like?
Re: live view is mirrorless
In reply to David314, 4 months ago

It's not just the refreshrate of the EVF, it's also the inputlag. A $1000 monitor like the Dell U3014 suffers from the same: there is a black hole where it detains the inputsignal to mess around with it. Around 30 ms later the image is displayed. Except for game mode, making that the only useable mode (oh wait, no; it has ugly colors).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
inasir1971
Senior MemberPosts: 3,317Gear list
Like?
Re: other theoretical advantages
In reply to David314, 4 months ago

David314 wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:

Isn't the whole point about mirror-less the weight and size decrease while maintaining the less changeability?

But once you do use that, and have multiple lenses; the weight difference over the entire kit isn't that much for a decent pentaprism and mirror...

without a mirror you get, no mirror shake

Ask a Sony A7r user about shutter shock, on any Olympus user. The problems with vibration have been far worse with mirrorless cameras, particularly shooting continuous mode, than the DSLRs I have used.

you get a viewfinder decoupled from the sensor size or sensor crop -

different magnifications

on sensor focus so no mis alignment issues

I don't believe that a relatively small number of on sensor pixels used for AF can ever equal a dedicated AF module.

Does anyone actually have cross type on-sensor PDAF or are they all still line type and in the same orientation? (like Olympus, Fuji and I guess everyone else)

in theory, since the focus sensors are not interrupted by the mirror, you could better autofocus

and no mirror blackout

Have you actually shot continuous with a mirrorless? I have an X-T1 and the interruption to the EVF from continuous shooting is far worse than the mirror blackout on DSLRs - to the point that it is next to impossible to follow anything that isn't moving in a perfectly predictable way.

You completely ignore the fact that the sensor stops providing a feed to the EVF to take an image and there is a delay after the exposure to restore the EVF feed. This is nothing to do with EVF lag.

faster fps

So? You can't see enough through the EVF to aim your camera due to the interruption mentioned earlier.

live histogram

of the JPEG, same as in liveview on a DSLR, or immediately after a shot

video

don't care

the possibility of focus peaking and other augmented parameters - zebras for exposure

also don't care - my precision matte screen is way better for focus. Have tried focus peaking and it isn't accurate - maybe useful for video.

exposure simulation

same as live histogram isn't this?

white balance simulation

try adjusting a polarizer using the EVF

a simpler camera mechanically -

throw in an electronic global shutter and the camera would be much simpler to manufacture

have essentially unlimited flash sync without some of the issues at high speed with two curtain shutters

probably cheaper and more reliable

am interested in better, not cheaper, and a sensor with a global shutter would give exactly the same advantages such as sync speed to a DSLR

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rhlpetrus
Forum ProPosts: 23,507Gear list
Like?
Re: See this: ugly sales figures Re: Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to Cliff Fujii, 4 months ago

Cliff Fujii wrote:

According to CIPA, this trend has been going on for three years.

-- hide signature --

Cliff

I don't think so. There was a slowdown and then a small drop, but about equally distributed among all ilc systems. The new trend is for a drop in dslrs whule ml grows, but we have to see if that stays that way, not obvious. It is a bit surprising, imo.

-- hide signature --

Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rhlpetrus
Forum ProPosts: 23,507Gear list
Like?
Unrelated to ff or sony Re: In seven years
In reply to Cliff Fujii, 4 months ago

Cliff Fujii wrote:

Sony already has. I don't see a lot of sales there also.

-- hide signature --

Cliff

The big numbers are in the less than 1.5k dollars price range. That's where Nikon and Canon are certainly seeing a drop in sales, while ML is moving up. They need a serious aps-c ml system, then they can think about ff.

-- hide signature --

Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chuxter
Forum ProPosts: 14,834Gear list
Like?
Re: other theoretical advantages
In reply to inasir1971, 4 months ago

inasir1971 wrote:

am interested in better, not cheaper, and a sensor with a global shutter would give exactly the same advantages such as sync speed to a DSLR

But if you have a camera w/ an electronic global shutter [both start and stop...I refrain from using the SLR terms "first curtain" and "second curtain"], how can you use the legacy term "Reflex"? Why would you need to also have a mirror?

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Nikon D50 Nikon D300 Nikon D810 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chuxter
Forum ProPosts: 14,834Gear list
Like?
Re: In seven years
In reply to Cliff Fujii, 4 months ago

Cliff Fujii wrote:

For some people a camera costing $2500-3000 is high end. The Sony A series would fall into the same category as the D810 and the D610 because of the sensor and there should the comparison be made. To do a mirrorless camera that is as good as a D610 and D810 would also take some effort. One of the interesting things about the D810 is the OLED overlay in the view finder. I find it makes taking photos at night much easier as the focus points can be seen at night similar to the D4. According to the reviews I have read about the Sony A series, it's not quite baked yet. The slow AF is what plagued the 4/3 cameras. I'm not sure if Nikon patents on the hybrid sensor is being sold but if it is, that would solve Sony's slow focusing issue. Of course, if I were Nikon, I would not sell rights to the hybrid design unless I absolutely had to. The big issue for me is AF Speed and the EVF. I'm not really happy with EVFs as they are today. They really need to up the horizontal frequency so there is no tearing or artifacting. I don't think that would be all that expensive. They first have to come out with an acceptable body design that is ruggedized for professional use. Then they would have to improve the EVF and come out with a faster AF design. Except for the EVF, Nikon is capable of producing such a camera for a reasonable price. The question is whether they want to.

I think that Sony, of all manufacturers, could produce the camera I'm thinking of. They are far more "adventurous" than Nikon and Canon. BUT, the A7s is FAR from what I want. What I want is a mirror-less design that doesn't compromise anything; no designing to a price! This will drive the price up a BUNCH.

It doesn't matter if this camera sells well. It's not there to make a big profit for the manufacturer. This requires a management team w/ a long view! The function of this camera is to get it in the hands of pros and testing organizations who will rave about it's capabilities. This will finally shut up the guys who whine about mirror-less designs.

THEN, we can get down to designing cameras in the $2000-$5000 range that WILL sell in huge volumes.

Analogy: We had to go to the moon [at great risk and expense] before we could go there en mass.

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Nikon D50 Nikon D300 Nikon D810 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chuxter
Forum ProPosts: 14,834Gear list
Like?
Re: Mirror-less
In reply to jcvjcvjcvjcv, 4 months ago

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:

Isn't the whole point about mirror-less the weight and size decrease while maintaining the less changeability?

No.

But once you do use that, and have multiple lenses; the weight difference over the entire kit isn't that much for a decent pentaprism and mirror...

No. A "proper" ML camera will have totally different lens designs. They will be mounted closer to the sensor and have fewer elements. They will be smaller and lighter.

BTW, "decent pentaprism and mirror" is an oxymoron.

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Nikon D50 Nikon D300 Nikon D810 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chuxter
Forum ProPosts: 14,834Gear list
Like?
Re: Unrelated to ff or sony Re: In seven years
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

rhlpetrus wrote:

Cliff Fujii wrote:

Sony already has. I don't see a lot of sales there also.

-- hide signature --

Cliff

The big numbers are in the less than 1.5k dollars price range. That's where Nikon and Canon are certainly seeing a drop in sales, while ML is moving up. They need a serious aps-c ml system, then they can think about ff.

I agree, except I think it needs to be done the other way. FIRST do a "serious" FF ML system [to make people lust for it and to shut up the guys who don't buy into the ML vision], THEN down-size and design to a price-point.

Analogy: If you don't have a car that can win races, it's hard to sell cheap cars to Walter Mitty.

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Nikon D50 Nikon D300 Nikon D810 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chuxter
Forum ProPosts: 14,834Gear list
Like?
Re: Poor 810 sales
In reply to Ben Stonewall, 4 months ago

Ben Stonewall wrote:

Hogan is uncanny, I haven't bought one and neither have any of my friends.

I looked at your profile. It appears as though you don't have any gear, thus it isn't strange that you would start by buying a D810. Tell me who your friends are and I'll check them out too...

BTW, Thom used to be "uncanny", but lately he's just "un".

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Nikon D50 Nikon D300 Nikon D810 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sandy b
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,676Gear list
Like?
Re: Unrelated to ff or sony Re: In seven years
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

Not sure of the correlation. Are DLSR sales off because of economy/cell phones/technology maturity or pressure from mirrorless? I think mirrorless sales will be hurt more by the cell phones than DSLR's will. And from the bleak economic future from most of the mirrorless group, I think it's obvious they are not picking up enough sales from Nikon/canon to make much of a difference, if at all.

Personally, I think people don't trust the economy, their high end cameras are good enough, with only incremental increases available. And cell phones are decimating small cameras. Mirrorless is not in a good position, either.

I think Nikon/Canon are developing techology, retrenching, and with profits and with secure amounts of cash can afford to wait out the market shakeout for abit.

 sandy b's gear list:sandy b's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P330 Nikon D7000 Nikon D600 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S Teleconverter TC-14E II +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PerL
Forum ProPosts: 12,725
Like?
How?
In reply to chuxter, 4 months ago

chuxter wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:

Isn't the whole point about mirror-less the weight and size decrease while maintaining the less changeability?

No.

But once you do use that, and have multiple lenses; the weight difference over the entire kit isn't that much for a decent pentaprism and mirror...

No. A "proper" ML camera will have totally different lens designs. They will be mounted closer to the sensor and have fewer elements. They will be smaller and lighter.

How will a 300 2.8 be smaller and lighter? Or a 70-200 2.8?, a 50 1.8? or a pancake like Canons 40 mm 2.8?

BTW, "decent pentaprism and mirror" is an oxymoron.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cliff Fujii
Senior MemberPosts: 2,935Gear list
Like?
Re: In seven years
In reply to chuxter, 4 months ago

Sony has had very little market share in cameras even though they have a huge name.  Of course their media divisions are having issues and they don't need imaging to be a drain in the bottom line.  Both Canon and Nikon could produce the ultimate MLC but it's not in the budget.  It will take a company like Leica to do this as they are not tied to the fiscal quarter as the large corporations are.  The only real issue is the EVF.  Once that's solved, you might see some traction on mirrorless.  It's really difficult to get an EVF to feel like an OVF.

The problem with going for a no compromise design is that you have competing requirements pulling the design in opposite directions.  What you have to do is to define what are the no compromise elements and eliminate the distracting requirements.  You might try looking at the Leica M series.  That's a mirrorless design that has very little compromise and the price reflects it.

-- hide signature --

Cliff

 Cliff Fujii's gear list:Cliff Fujii's gear list
Nikon Df Nikon 1 V3 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G ED +47 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cliff Fujii
Senior MemberPosts: 2,935Gear list
Like?
Re: Unrelated to ff or sony Re: In seven years
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

The CIPA figures I have seen show no growth in the mirrorless market for the last three years.  What is selling doesn't leave enough room for three companies to survive on.  That why Credit Suisse predicted there will be a shake out in the mirrorless manufacturers.  Large corporations just cannot survive on loosing money year after year.  I think Panasonic was smart in selling half of it's mirrorless division to an Israeli company.  I'm thinking that if Panasonic doesn't see a good 2014, they might be out of the game entirely.

-- hide signature --

Cliff

 Cliff Fujii's gear list:Cliff Fujii's gear list
Nikon Df Nikon 1 V3 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G ED +47 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cliff Fujii
Senior MemberPosts: 2,935Gear list
Like?
Re: See this: ugly sales figures Re: Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

According to last year's sales figures for Europe and the US, DSLR were seeing an upsurge in sales while MLCs have been flat. There was a bump in fourth quarter 2012 but that flattened out at the end of the fourth quarter.

Shipping by type in Americas and Europe (MR-mirrorless DSLR-digital single lens reflex)

No matter how you crunch it, 2011, 2012, and 2013 were bad years for mirrorless cameras.  With less than 8% of the market, Olympus is not looking good for 2015.  They have suspended dividens until they become profitable again.  With Panasonic half of it's imaging business, that doesn't leave very many players in the MLC arena.  Will Fujifilm be the last man standing?

-- hide signature --

Cliff

 Cliff Fujii's gear list:Cliff Fujii's gear list
Nikon Df Nikon 1 V3 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G ED +47 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
photoreddi
Senior MemberPosts: 4,671
Like?
Re: Not really - but Thom Hogan has poor ad revenues... :)
In reply to AZ Steve, 4 months ago

AZ Steve wrote:

Right on, Suede. It's a relief to me to see someone responsible saying this about Thom: I had thought maybe I was just getting sour in my old age.

Responsible? More likely similar souring. Suede's comment

IMO Thom is slowly - but steadily - moving closer to a kind of Ken Rockwell status. That is; he can be entertaining, but it's been a long time now since I really took anything he says as being even remotely related to reality and verifiable facts.

is devoid of facts, is just a personal opinion that is REALLY unrelated to reality and seems to have been written solely for its entertainment value, kind of what we might expect from a soured troll. Maybe he's been reading Thom less than he used to and is now peering too often into his mirror.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MisterHairy
Senior MemberPosts: 1,459Gear list
Like?
Re: Not really - but Thom Hogan has poor ad revenues... :)
In reply to photoreddi, 4 months ago

photoreddi wrote:

AZ Steve wrote:

Right on, Suede. It's a relief to me to see someone responsible saying this about Thom: I had thought maybe I was just getting sour in my old age.

Responsible? More likely similar souring. Suede's comment

IMO Thom is slowly - but steadily - moving closer to a kind of Ken Rockwell status. That is; he can be entertaining, but it's been a long time now since I really took anything he says as being even remotely related to reality and verifiable facts.

is devoid of facts, is just a personal opinion that is REALLY unrelated to reality and seems to have been written solely for its entertainment value, kind of what we might expect from a soured troll. Maybe he's been reading Thom less than he used to and is now peering too often into his mirror.

He's right though.

 MisterHairy's gear list:MisterHairy's gear list
Nikon D700 Nikon Df Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED +14 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads