Poor 810 sales

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
RedFox88
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Re: Poor 810 sales
In reply to philharris, 4 months ago

philharris wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

It's not "workflow", it's a refresh model and SLR camera sales are in decline. Buyers that have a d800 aren't gaining any more resolution but just 1 fps just like the d300s was. nikon should not expect "good" sales of an expensive refresh model. This might be different if they also didn't offer 35mm cameras in the df and d610.

I changed to a D810 and I would say it's a lot more than just a refresh. The AF is a substantial improvement, shutter is much smoother and quieter and the new highlight protection metering seems rather good.

All in all I am extremely happy with the upgrade. Reviews and responses here would seem to support that view.

A handful of replies on here doesn't mean there's a high volume of sales. And you pointed out updated parts that a pro photographer may be able to take advantage of and afford but unlikely for many hobbyists to afford for minor differences with no change in resolution.

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MoreorLess
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Re: Thom Hogan Too Negative
In reply to Thoughts R Us, 4 months ago

Thoughts R Us wrote:

Thom Hogan is way too negative. He gets depressing to read.

No matter what, he's always down on the camera companies, and especially Nikon.

Given the way he writes about Nikon, I'm surprised they are even in existence. I am also surprised that Thom still uses Nikon products. Interesting. So he criticizes them as if they are morons who can't do anything right, yet still buys their equipment.

As they say, the real measure is how someone spends their money; all else is BS.

I respect Thom, and have always learned something from reading him...but now it's gotten to the point that I largely tune him out. I can almost predict what he will write:

Nikon just about can't get anything right. Even when they get something right, they mess it up in some other way. Nikon doesn't listen to or pay attention to customers. Nikon makes bad business decisions. Nikon can't manage inventory properly. Nikon can't even name their products properly. Nikon doesn't price properly, they don't manage releases properly, they have gaping holes in lens lineup...blah...blah...blah.

Nikon is clueless. (But I still keep buying their products)...by Thom.

Its a pattern you see with a lot of Canon and Nikon commentary.

Ultimately I think the problem is who is reading/clicking this stuff, sadly its not your average buyer but mostly people interesting in arguing and ego boosting on the net. The form this takes is I'd say very different between mirrorless owners and DSLR owners though.

On the mirrorless side you've got a lot of gearhead fanboys who want to read nothing but praise for the equipment/brand they've invested in not just financially but emotionally, they also want to here nothing but negativity about the "mainstream" that they avoided being "smarter" than the average consumer.

On the DSLR side you do have some fanboys but because Canon and Nikon are so mainstream theres really much less of an ego boost to be had. The ego boost on this side comes from being critical of the brand you use to excess, again playing yourself as "smarter than the mainstream".

So critical Nikon commentary feeds into both Nikon AND mirrorless markets and gets maximum views.

By far the biggest giveaway for me was F-stoppers "hipster" Df review, they felt the need to make it for a Nikon camera but not a Fuji/Oly camera that was sold based on retro looks.

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philharris
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Re: Poor 810 sales
In reply to RedFox88, 4 months ago

RedFox88 wrote:

philharris wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

It's not "workflow", it's a refresh model and SLR camera sales are in decline. Buyers that have a d800 aren't gaining any more resolution but just 1 fps just like the d300s was. nikon should not expect "good" sales of an expensive refresh model. This might be different if they also didn't offer 35mm cameras in the df and d610.

I changed to a D810 and I would say it's a lot more than just a refresh. The AF is a substantial improvement, shutter is much smoother and quieter and the new highlight protection metering seems rather good.

All in all I am extremely happy with the upgrade. Reviews and responses here would seem to support that view.

A handful of replies on here doesn't mean there's a high volume of sales. And you pointed out updated parts that a pro photographer may be able to take advantage of and afford but unlikely for many hobbyists to afford for minor differences with no change in resolution.

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I was relying on the Amazon sales statistics to carry the point about actual sales being far from poor.

As for a change in resolution being required to make a camera a worthy upgrade, where does that leave the 16mp Fuji range, or almost all Canons?

I would not call a much improved AF system a minor difference. It was one area where the D800 may have lagged behind the competition, now it doesn't.

The most telling point for me is that I see no negativity from people who actually have the camera, only from people who don't.

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PerL
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Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to jadot, 4 months ago

jadot wrote:

Thom Hogan suggests that Nikon aren't selling out of D810s because of the workflow support etc.

He might have a point, and his numbers might be right but if he stopped whining on about Nikon's management of this and that for a minute he might be able to see what's right there in front of us all.

A lot of people figured out that they didn't need a D800. A couple of years later, those Nikon users have realised that justifying the expense of regularly 'upgrading' for the sake of it is getting harder to swallow. Technically speaking the D810 is probably up there with best DSLRs on the market today, but it's also easier to decide not to jump into the next iteration of camera when the one you've already got is 99% going to continue to hit the high notes.

Also, a lot of people have moved from DSLRs to mirror-less Systems, specifically Fuji. Why? Because they're much improved and a lot has changed in this market since the D800 was released. It's liberated a lot of photographers I know. People who used to be devoted Nikon or Canon photographers have in some numbers moved on, un phased, un excited, and unimpressed that there is a new DSLR to blow another 3k on.

it may not be the whole story, but there has been a seismic shift in the pro-sumer and pro markets, particularly the weddings and lifestyle end of things, and that shift has been towards smaller, lighter, and very capable CSCs.

A seismic shift to mirroless, especially Fuji? A revolution behind the scenes in that case, since I almost never see any mirrorless camera out in the streets or in the hands of professionals.

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nikonuserinfo
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About NX2 non support for D810 NEF and sales...
In reply to Rick Knepper, 4 months ago

Rick Knepper wrote:

but only in the sense that he is seeing a fact and talking about the near term. Where he is wrong is in his conclusion. Getting away from NX-2 will be the best thing that ever happened to Nikon photographers who have become dependent on this software.

Rick,

What a strange reasoning... Someone might say the same about Adobe software. It would be just a very poor evolution in relation to creativity that finally everybody might use DNG or Adobe...

Anyhow, since D810 NEF is not supported by NX2, I shoot NEFs in neutral setting (one of the great qualities NX software has is that it keeps the picture style settings when opening a NEF file ) -> eventually adjust exposure and WB with NikonView NX2.10 -> conversion to TIFF with NikonView NX2.10 -> go to NX2 to do the final touch with its great U point tech. ->After that I use PS CS5 to put eventually some text.
Several key functions in NEF conversion are missing in NikonView 2.10 and NX-D though, and that's a pity.

About NX2 not to support D810 NEF files I am convinced that it will keep several users longer with their D800 or D800e...

And about D810 poor sales: A big retailer and friend of mine told me that mirrorless, Fuji and mobile phones are taking big part of classic DSLR market, no reasons to search relative poor D810 sales within Nikon management.

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tomboy
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Re: Good 810 sales
In reply to Oldan New, 4 months ago

I have a D800 AND ended up buying Sony A7R  36 MAGAPIXEL full frame sensor

and love using it.. with the 24-70 Zeiss lens ..

OUTSTANDING IMAGES..

I ended up buying Sony A7 as well  24 megapixels that I use most of the time ..

My Nikon S800 is stored away in the closet

it's behind time ..

Sony a7r and a7

being a fun camera to use

Way lighter in weight and smaller way ahead of Nikon at this time..

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Rick Knepper
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Can't see the forest for the trees
In reply to nikonuserinfo, 4 months ago

nikonuserinfo wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

but only in the sense that he is seeing a fact and talking about the near term. Where he is wrong is in his conclusion. Getting away from NX-2 will be the best thing that ever happened to Nikon photographers who have become dependent on this software.

Rick,

What a strange reasoning... Someone might say the same about Adobe software. It would be just a very poor evolution in relation to creativity that finally everybody might use DNG or Adobe...

Of course this would seem strange to you. You can't see the forest for the trees in terms of this particular issue. You are too upset that Nikon "took something away" from you to see that the possibilities are now wide open (until such time that you lock yourself into the next software solution - and I would suggest that be PS CC).

And no, I've never seen anyone who has learned PS and ACR completely declare they are giving up Photoshop to use a rudimentary alternative from a camera maker.

For most folks looking at this thread now (perhaps in the USA only), there is an ad in the right-hand panel for PS and LR for $9.99/month. I strongly advise jumping on that offer.

Anyhow, since D810 NEF is not supported by NX2, I shoot NEFs in neutral setting (one of the great qualities NX software has is that it keeps the picture style settings when opening a NEF file ) -> eventually adjust exposure and WB with NikonView NX2.10 -> conversion to TIFF with NikonView NX2.10 -> go to NX2 to do the final touch with its great U point tech. ->After that I use PS CS5 to put eventually some text.

I've addressed this in another thread but Picture Style and the Image Enhancement features are nothing more than (post)-processing going on internally in the camera. What you see when you open a NEF in "NX-whatever" is not the raw NEF unless you purposely turn off all of that stuff. The good news is that you can still produce the same result by your own hand with PS or any other decent photo-editing software [with some training]. More good news being that Adobe will support any camera produced by Nikon in the foreseeable future. Hard to imagine Adobe taking a software icon like Photoshop off the market. Plus, you can create your own profiles for ACR or buy 3rd party profiles from folks who done the learning themselves and know how to create profiles for ACR.

Several key functions in NEF conversion are missing in NikonView 2.10 and NX-D though, and that's a pity.

Refer to my previous paragraph. Whatever key feature you believe you have lost and the result that feature produces can be accomplished in PS. Once learned and incorporated into the workflow, Nikon can't take your PS away from you.

About NX2 not to support D810 NEF files I am convinced that it will keep several users longer with their D800 or D800e...

There is a trend in the industry to get away from perpetual software updates (that can keep 10 year old cameras [or any hardware for that matter] and 10 year old software relevant). The implementation is different from company to company. Canon has done it. Adobe has done it in their arena. Microsoft has been doing it for years. Intel makes sure each new processor series has its own socket arrangement so they can sell new motherboards and chipsets along with their new processors.

And about D810 poor sales: A big retailer and friend of mine told me that mirrorless, Fuji and mobile phones are taking big part of classic DSLR market, no reasons to search relative poor D810 sales within Nikon management.

The premise of my post was based on Mr. Hogan's suggestion that D810s aren't selling out because of the NX-2 issue. I think that is a ridiculous conclusion from an otherwise insightful blogger or Nikon users are particularly afraid of change (to whom I am trying to help by testifying that there is life beyond NX-2, really a good life). Mr. Hogan did not claim D810 sales were poor by the way.

The number one reason for most current D800 series users to forgo upgrading at this time is because the purchase of their D800 series camera is still too new. The unadulterated praise the D810 is getting (sans the software carping) will eventually drive more DX users and brand-switchers to the D810 than D800 upgraders in the near term.

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Rick Knepper, photographer, shooting for pleasure. It is better to have It and not need It than need It and not have It. Various RAW comparisons at Link below. Includes 5D3 vs D800E (new uploads), 5D3 vs. 6D, Zeiss lenses etc. https://app.box.com/s/71w40ita6hrcfghojaie

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rhlpetrus
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See this: ugly sales figures Re: Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to PerL, 4 months ago

PerL wrote:

jadot wrote:

Thom Hogan suggests that Nikon aren't selling out of D810s because of the workflow support etc.

He might have a point, and his numbers might be right but if he stopped whining on about Nikon's management of this and that for a minute he might be able to see what's right there in front of us all.

A lot of people figured out that they didn't need a D800. A couple of years later, those Nikon users have realised that justifying the expense of regularly 'upgrading' for the sake of it is getting harder to swallow. Technically speaking the D810 is probably up there with best DSLRs on the market today, but it's also easier to decide not to jump into the next iteration of camera when the one you've already got is 99% going to continue to hit the high notes.

Also, a lot of people have moved from DSLRs to mirror-less Systems, specifically Fuji. Why? Because they're much improved and a lot has changed in this market since the D800 was released. It's liberated a lot of photographers I know. People who used to be devoted Nikon or Canon photographers have in some numbers moved on, un phased, un excited, and unimpressed that there is a new DSLR to blow another 3k on.

it may not be the whole story, but there has been a seismic shift in the pro-sumer and pro markets, particularly the weddings and lifestyle end of things, and that shift has been towards smaller, lighter, and very capable CSCs.

A seismic shift to mirroless, especially Fuji? A revolution behind the scenes in that case, since I almost never see any mirrorless camera out in the streets or in the hands of professionals.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54144669

If the trend holds, change is really coming, not that ML will dominate, but overall sales of ILCs (dslr+ml) will go back to what they were in the mid-2000s (about 6 million per year, dslrs only). Scary for all makers, especially for Nikon IMO, which depends heavily on their dslr/lens sales.

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nikonuserinfo
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Re: Can't see the forest for the trees
In reply to Rick Knepper, 4 months ago

Rick Knepper wrote:

nikonuserinfo wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

but only in the sense that he is seeing a fact and talking about the near term. Where he is wrong is in his conclusion. Getting away from NX-2 will be the best thing that ever happened to Nikon photographers who have become dependent on this software.

Rick,

What a strange reasoning... Someone might say the same about Adobe software. It would be just a very poor evolution in relation to creativity that finally everybody might use DNG or Adobe...

Of course this would seem strange to you. You can't see the forest for the trees in terms of this particular issue. You are too upset that Nikon "took something away" from you to see that the possibilities are now wide open (until such time that you lock yourself into the next software solution - and I would suggest that be PS CC).

My dear, I use PS since CS, always with official PS licence keys until PS cs 6, and I know how it works, but I prefer to work with NX2 for Nikon NEF files, by far. I use PS for other applications.

And no, I've never seen anyone who has learned PS and ACR completely declare they are giving up Photoshop to use a rudimentary alternative from a camera maker.

For most folks looking at this thread now (perhaps in the USA only), there is an ad in the right-hand panel for PS and LR for $9.99/month.

To avoid those commercial banners, I have excellent software. It keeps my screen totally clean.

...I strongly advise jumping on that offer.

All this cloud sh*t is nothing for me. Privacy failed too often and will keep failing. CS6 was the last version for me. There is excellent other photo software as well to find, sometimes even for free.

Anyhow, since D810 NEF is not supported by NX2, I shoot NEFs in neutral setting (one of the great qualities NX software has is that it keeps the picture style settings when opening a NEF file ) -> eventually adjust exposure and WB with NikonView NX2.10 -> conversion to TIFF with NikonView NX2.10 -> go to NX2 to do the final touch with its great U point tech. ->After that I use PS CS5 to put eventually some text.

I've addressed this in another thread but Picture Style and the Image Enhancement features are nothing more than (post)-processing going on internally in the camera. What you see when you open a NEF in "NX-whatever" is not the raw NEF unless you purposely turn off all of that stuff. The good news is that you can still produce the same result by your own hand with PS or any other decent photo-editing software [with some training].

More good news being that Adobe will support any camera produced by Nikon in the foreseeable future. Hard to imagine Adobe taking a software icon like Photoshop off the market. Plus, you can create your own profiles for ACR or buy 3rd party profiles from folks who done the learning themselves and know how to create profiles for ACR.

Done all that, prefer NX2

Several key functions in NEF conversion are missing in NikonView 2.10 and NX-D though, and that's a pity.

Refer to my previous paragraph. Whatever key feature you believe you have lost and the result that feature produces can be accomplished in PS. Once learned and incorporated into the workflow, Nikon can't take your PS away from you.
....

Do you work for Adobe?

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David314
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Trees are important
In reply to Rick Knepper, 4 months ago

Rick Knepper wrote:

nikonuserinfo wrote:

The premise of my post was based on Mr. Hogan's suggestion that D810s aren't selling out because of the NX-2 issue. I think that is a ridiculous conclusion from an otherwise insightful blogger or Nikon users are particularly afraid of change (to whom I am trying to help by testifying that there is life beyond NX-2, really a good life). Mr. Hogan did not claim D810 sales were poor by the way.

The number one reason for most current D800 series users to forgo upgrading at this time is because the purchase of their D800 series camera is still too new. The unadulterated praise the D810 is getting (sans the software carping) will eventually drive more DX users and brand-switchers to the D810 than D800 upgraders in the near term.

detsils are important and there are things that capture nx does as an integrated raw converter that other software doesn't

if adobe shut down tomorrow and all those years invested in learning photoshop were gone would you view that as an opportunity?

and it is perfectly normal for people to wait in purchasing a new camera until suitable software for processing it is available

but the real point that thom is trying to make is that workflow, what happens after the image is taken, is extremely important

and that nikon seems to be tsaking a step backwards in this workflow and do not appear to understand how important it is

And at a time of declining sales and stock prices now is not the time for a company to be making tscticsl mistakes

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chuxter
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Re: Thom Hogan Too Negative
In reply to Thoughts R Us, 4 months ago

Thoughts R Us wrote:

Nikon is clueless. (But I still keep buying their products)...by Thom.

I liked your post!

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PerL
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Re: See this: ugly sales figures Re: Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

rhlpetrus wrote:

PerL wrote:

jadot wrote:

Thom Hogan suggests that Nikon aren't selling out of D810s because of the workflow support etc.

He might have a point, and his numbers might be right but if he stopped whining on about Nikon's management of this and that for a minute he might be able to see what's right there in front of us all.

A lot of people figured out that they didn't need a D800. A couple of years later, those Nikon users have realised that justifying the expense of regularly 'upgrading' for the sake of it is getting harder to swallow. Technically speaking the D810 is probably up there with best DSLRs on the market today, but it's also easier to decide not to jump into the next iteration of camera when the one you've already got is 99% going to continue to hit the high notes.

Also, a lot of people have moved from DSLRs to mirror-less Systems, specifically Fuji. Why? Because they're much improved and a lot has changed in this market since the D800 was released. It's liberated a lot of photographers I know. People who used to be devoted Nikon or Canon photographers have in some numbers moved on, un phased, un excited, and unimpressed that there is a new DSLR to blow another 3k on.

it may not be the whole story, but there has been a seismic shift in the pro-sumer and pro markets, particularly the weddings and lifestyle end of things, and that shift has been towards smaller, lighter, and very capable CSCs.

A seismic shift to mirroless, especially Fuji? A revolution behind the scenes in that case, since I almost never see any mirrorless camera out in the streets or in the hands of professionals.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54144669

If the trend holds, change is really coming, not that ML will dominate, but overall sales of ILCs (dslr+ml) will go back to what they were in the mid-2000s (about 6 million per year, dslrs only). Scary for all makers, especially for Nikon IMO, which depends heavily on their dslr/lens sales.

I read a little in that thread. I also read that it would take seven years for mirrorless to catch up with DSLR if that trend continued. So the "seismic shift" is glacial in speed....

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54146233

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chuxter
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Re: See this: ugly sales figures Re: Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to PerL, 4 months ago

PerL wrote:

I read a little in that thread. I also read that it would take seven years for mirrorless to catch up with DSLR if that trend continued. So the "seismic shift" is glacial in speed....

Glaciers think they move quickly. Ants think humans move slowly. Perception is everything.

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sandy b
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In seven years
In reply to PerL, 4 months ago

Nikon and canon will control 65-70% of the mirrorless market. About the same as they do now for DSLR's.

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Wrong !
In reply to jadot, 4 months ago
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rhlpetrus
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Re: See this: ugly sales figures Re: Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to PerL, 4 months ago

PerL wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

PerL wrote:

jadot wrote:

Thom Hogan suggests that Nikon aren't selling out of D810s because of the workflow support etc.

He might have a point, and his numbers might be right but if he stopped whining on about Nikon's management of this and that for a minute he might be able to see what's right there in front of us all.

A lot of people figured out that they didn't need a D800. A couple of years later, those Nikon users have realised that justifying the expense of regularly 'upgrading' for the sake of it is getting harder to swallow. Technically speaking the D810 is probably up there with best DSLRs on the market today, but it's also easier to decide not to jump into the next iteration of camera when the one you've already got is 99% going to continue to hit the high notes.

Also, a lot of people have moved from DSLRs to mirror-less Systems, specifically Fuji. Why? Because they're much improved and a lot has changed in this market since the D800 was released. It's liberated a lot of photographers I know. People who used to be devoted Nikon or Canon photographers have in some numbers moved on, un phased, un excited, and unimpressed that there is a new DSLR to blow another 3k on.

it may not be the whole story, but there has been a seismic shift in the pro-sumer and pro markets, particularly the weddings and lifestyle end of things, and that shift has been towards smaller, lighter, and very capable CSCs.

A seismic shift to mirroless, especially Fuji? A revolution behind the scenes in that case, since I almost never see any mirrorless camera out in the streets or in the hands of professionals.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54144669

If the trend holds, change is really coming, not that ML will dominate, but overall sales of ILCs (dslr+ml) will go back to what they were in the mid-2000s (about 6 million per year, dslrs only). Scary for all makers, especially for Nikon IMO, which depends heavily on their dslr/lens sales.

I read a little in that thread. I also read that it would take seven years for mirrorless to catch up with DSLR if that trend continued. So the "seismic shift" is glacial in speed....

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54146233

Not clear that the trend will stay at same sped, accelerate positively or negatively. It could move faster, depending on the dynamics of things. Just one semester is too short to see what´s really going on, but the whole thing seem sto be changing in nature.

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rhlpetrus
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Re: In seven years
In reply to sandy b, 4 months ago

sandy b wrote:

Nikon and canon will control 65-70% of the mirrorless market. About the same as they do now for DSLR's.

Yes and no, depends on how they act now. It´s taking too long imo for them to start being serious about ML and smaller systems. Both seem to have been protecting their lead via dslrs, which now is in danger.

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rhlpetrus
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Re: See this: ugly sales figures Re: Invisible seismic shift?
In reply to chuxter, 4 months ago

chuxter wrote:

PerL wrote:

I read a little in that thread. I also read that it would take seven years for mirrorless to catch up with DSLR if that trend continued. So the "seismic shift" is glacial in speed....

Glaciers think they move quickly. Ants think humans move slowly. Perception is everything.

And slow events may break into catasptrophic and fast ones. The advent of the smartphone was such for the market of compacts.

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chuxter
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Re: In seven years
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

rhlpetrus wrote:

sandy b wrote:

Nikon and canon will control 65-70% of the mirrorless market. About the same as they do now for DSLR's.

Yes and no, depends on how they act now. It´s taking too long imo for them to start being serious about ML and smaller systems. Both seem to have been protecting their lead via dslrs, which now is in danger.

I agree. Somebody needs to "blink" and go ahead and bring out a high-end mirror-less system.

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HymanRoth
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Re: Thom Hogan Too Negative
In reply to chuxter, 4 months ago

Thom Hogan:

1.  Everything that has happened in the camera business, I predicted when I was 6 years old.

2.  I was the first to report on the D600 dust issue (well, except for the LensRental guy), the D800 focus issues, and Watergate.

3.  I invented the laptop computer and, while I was at it, the Internet (well, me and All Gore together, back when we were in Silicon Valley together).

4.  I am the Chuck Norris of wildlife photography;  in Africa: lions come to the Serengeti specifically to be photographed by me.

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